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#80794 - 07/28/10 04:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: KeithS]
Playin In The Band Offline
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Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Im sure the Beatles used clicks on somethings, makes sense blackbird is all acoustic, a ballad... no drummer, how else would you be able to stay in time, if he did it all live than it certainly would make sense.

But if Ringo was goign to be playing on it, there would have been no click track.

So you found an example, but MOST beatle songs were done live band, no click.

i've tried to add a metronome to dozens of their songs, and it never works. certain passages work but it starts to drop off as the song progresses.

Show me a led zepplin song played to a click track...bet it takes u a long time lol j/k

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#80795 - 07/28/10 04:27 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: John Conley]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Well be positive and say it wont come back!

Ive been spending time trying to find good albums/songs recorded by biab and to be honest im having a hard time. It all sounds like midi to me. The main thing I notice is that the instruments seem to have a dull sustain at the end of their passages, I guess thats cause when it changes chords something alters it.

People choose guitar picking styles, and those are the worst sounding in my opinion. Drums and bass sound good enough but the stringed instruments dont in my opinion.

Piano sounds kind of lifeless as well.

As you said "if I cant get decent backing tracks ill eat my hat. Decent works for gigs, but for recording original music?

paint me "on the fence"

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#80796 - 07/28/10 04:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: LawTunes]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Lol, interesting niche you got there. I think your stuff is good, it doesnt sound like a band however.

Also, if it's not too late, your vocals are way too high in the mix, cant hear anythng else when the singing is happening.

Cool site!


Edited by Playin In The Band (07/28/10 04:34 PM)

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#80797 - 07/28/10 05:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
fgrittner Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 776
Loc: St. Paul, Minnesota
I used BIAB MIDI tracks on my second album in 1996--mostly bass and drums. The bass was fine but the sound modules available at the time did not produce convincing drum tracks, especially brush drums. My 2007 album used the first sets of Real Drums, midi bass, midi banjo, and midi keyboard in a few places. I overdubbed guitar and mandolin and brought in guest musicians to handle background vocals, electric lead guitar, harmonica, and, on the last song, piano. This hybrid form of arranging and recording works well for me. You can hear clips at CD Baby--see my signature link. (A banjo player friend of mine asked me who played banjo on one song--a BIAB midi file coupled with a great sampled banjo fooled him.)

The introduction and explosion of RealTracks has been a game-changer for BIAB and for the way I work. I rarely seek out Midi styles these days. My current project features RealTracks on piano, organ, bass, fiddle, pedal steel, and all types of electric guitars. I have added electric and acoustic guitar. The blend is to my ears incredible once I put the tracks into my DAW and add eq, compression, and reverb. The next album will be out this fall and it will be interesting to get feedback.

I spent a ton of money on my first album back in 1994--studio, musicians, blank reel tape, engineer, etc. It was fun and if I won the lottery I probably would want to try it again. But when I listen to the fine musicianship of RT players I realize that I have found more than an acceptable compromise.


Fred
_________________________
Fred Grittner
52tracksblog.com
fredgrittner.bandcamp.com

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#80798 - 07/28/10 05:11 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 862
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Quote:

But if Ringo was going to be playing on it, there would have been no click track.





Reminds me of the old Ring Starr quote "I was surprised at how much trouble a metronome has keeping good time, until you get it broken in through use".

Quote:

Show me a led zepplin song played to a click track...bet it takes u a long time lol





Ah, be careful. I'm already thinking Stairway to Heaven

And would you believe that Jimmy Page was miking up a PigNose Amp on a lot of those studio recordings that sound like a Marshall Stack?
_________________________
Keith
BIAB 2017 Audiophile
Home Built i7 i5280K 3.4 Ghz, 64 GB RAM, Melodyne Studio 4
Windows 7 64 Bit, SONAR Platinum, Sony Vegas 13, Acid 7, Sony Audio Master Suite, Waves Horizon Bundle, Izotope Ozone 7 Advanced

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#80799 - 07/28/10 05:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18587
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
"I suggest you read some articles."



You obviously have no idea how many articles I have read concerning music. That is funny.

I'll take a cool down spell. That article you quoted does not mention a click once, so I am kind of lost as to how that applies to what I said.

I agree, music has been going downhill fast, and certainly the commercial crap they are pumping out now. Some of it makes me shake my head... but not because of a click track.


The Beatles were great writers and the strength of their songs still carries on.
Those of us old enough to have worked with tape (you referred to yourself as an old-timer, remember) would not expect a finsished product to stay with a metronome. Tape stretch, speed, bouncing etc. Fading off the metronome over time would be the expected result. Let alone the vinyl aspect of the older stuff.

PS I think you give Ringo a bit too much credit.


Edited by rharv (07/28/10 06:06 PM)
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#80800 - 07/28/10 05:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
LawTunes Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 179
Loc: New York, NY
Thanks. Your comment re the mix is a good one. The mix made more sense when I was doing lawyer humor albums where it was critical that every word be understood. My new project is neither law nor humor, but a 60's surf album of original tunes, and I'll make sure to turn down the lead vocal to avoid the situation you noted. I'm also going to have significant backup vocals which I do not want drowned out.

I'm not sure how to remedy your perception that it does not sound like a band. I already spread things out with panning. I could vary the volume of individual tracks relative to others more doing the course of the song. Perhaps I could add an element of anticipation or delay to some tracks. Any thoughts on achieving that particular goal from you or others?

Thanks again.
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www.SurfChords.com: The SurfChords - The Endless Summer Continues and The Wave Never Ends

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#80801 - 07/28/10 06:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: rharv]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Well if the old stuff was great, and the new stuff sucks, and the old stuff didnt use clicks, but the new stuff does... mathematics

But here is an article that used to be on Groupeffort.com i had cpied but it's not on the site anymore.

The Drummer Vs. The Drum MachineAnalog drum machines have been around since the 60s, and were actually used on Sly Stone recordings in the early 70s. Digital drum machines revolutionized the pop sound of the 80s, with everyone from the Cars to Prince using them in their recordings and live performances. This revolution opened the door for a new form to take hold: rap. Machines were the perfect companinion for rappers in the late 80s who just needed a beat as a backdrop to their rhymes. Live drummers continued to be born though, and many have either consciously or subconsciously been influenced by the presence of the drum machine. This includes enduring the lame-o cracks that we're suddenly replaceable. Ah, the drummer jokes.

Regardless, this competition with machine resulted in many drummers feeling the heat to up their game: beats had to be cleaner, time had to be steadier, tuning had to more perfect, etc., etc. As a result modern drummers tend to reflect the stoicism of the machines. I would argue that while their may be gains to the art form in certain aspects, what's been lost is the soul that was once present in live drumming. A beat created by a human drummer is a thing to behold. No two drummers play the same beat the same way, each bringing his own musical preferences, life experiences and well, soul, to the table.

Little things like speeding up the tempo during a chorus and pulling it back during the verses (ala Charlie Watts), are becoming things of the past. While I'm on the subject just say no to click tracks. You think Black Sabbath used a click track on War Pigs? My work here is done ~ jb

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#80802 - 07/28/10 06:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18587
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
There are (and always have been) drummers that can keep time. The benefits the click offers are now functional.

By that I mean, now it's possible to have a drummer (or a machine) do the rythm section while getting tracks down, and then go back and re-do the drums with a different drummer, whatever. Track limitations in the tape days didn't really support this feature. The click is there as a marker. Both for the performer and for the engineers.
The trick these days is finding a drummer who can hear a click and play behind when needed and push it when it's called for. This is the new drummer. They have to know their licks, but also know their technique to make it all work.

Sure there are drummers (and bands) that record without one. If you have access to such a drummer take advantage of it (but use a click anyway for the other tracking and editing advantages). The click doesn't "have" to be a steady metronome; you can adjust it as needed thoughout a song. There is often a jump there when people say a metronome is a click track. It CAN be, but often is not.

I'll tell you that while BiaB is not perfect, you *could* adjust the click track throughout the song to match the feel. You can even record it with the human only feel, and then use the tempo map generated by the program to sync a click for a drummer, etc. (instance count in!) It doesn't have to be a perfect metronome to be useful.

I think you are putting blame on a click, when it lies elsewhere, more in the 'one man does the whole show' area. Nobody is great at everything.
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#80803 - 07/28/10 07:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: rharv]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
The click is essential today because of plug and play and diy's and daw's.

If you're gonna have other musicians play parts for you, they cant play after your part is done, they need to be playing at the same time. so when not playing at same time the click essential, but it also makes the music not nessecarily bad, but not "live" sounding. For rock music, live sounding is what your should be striving for.

For pop...or singer songwriter stuff, the new way is probably ok.

BTW, how does a drummer push or pull back behind a click, when the other instruments are doing something else. generally drummers play with a click in one ear, and a reference track in the other
ear, but the reference track is generated via a click track as well.

Now what do you mean about using all human feel in BIAB?

How is that done, Im not crazy about "humanizing" effects, they just create random flucuations but not
human ones.

When a drummer slows down, the rest of the band tends to adjust their timing, then when the bass player is behind, the drummer catches him, often without even realizing it, they just find themselves because the song structure mandates it.

Cant beat a real band, real band doesnt come close, but looking at what is out there, it might be the best there is.

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#80804 - 07/28/10 08:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: LawTunes]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Well I think using midi sources like strings and such makes the rest of it sound like karaoke or midi.

But I did notice one song headin home on a holliday night used all real tracks and it sounded a bit better, but yet the music was so far behind you cant make it out.

Having said that, for your music, which is humour and quirky, the sound is not a destractor and may add to it, with all the electric bells and whistles. Nobody expects that to sound like a an artists album.

I was just comparing it to what a real band would sound like to see where BIAB stands in that sense.

But in the future, I'd lay off the midi stuff, if you want strings play them over the real band tracks just like you do when you sing.

U'd also might consider not using patterns that highlight individual notes like for example, there was one song that had a piano in it but the piano was doing solo lines throughout the chord progression, same thing with fingerpicking guitars in biab, they dont sound real.

The strumming tends to get mixed in with the rest better, but the individual notes stand out, and not in a good way.

It's good in a way, because im already learning what to do and what not to do if/when I use biab.


Edited by Playin In The Band (07/28/10 08:54 PM)

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#80805 - 07/28/10 08:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18587
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Quote:

The click is essential today because of plug and play and diy's and daw's.

If you're gonna have other musicians play parts for you, they cant play after your part is done, they need to be playing at the same time. so when not playing at same time the click essential, but it also makes the music not nessecarily bad, but not "live" sounding. For rock music, live sounding is what your should be striving for.




I disagree, if done right it is seamless, and does facilitate multitracking, which is essential these days..
Quote:


For pop...or singer songwriter stuff, the new way is probably ok.

BTW, how does a drummer push or pull back behind a click, when the other instruments are doing something else. generally drummers play with a click in one ear, and a reference track in the other
ear, but the reference track is generated via a click track as well.




Dunno how to answer. Playing ahead or behind the click is an essential part of live feel.

Quote:


Now what do you mean about using all human feel in BIAB?

How is that done, Im not crazy about "humanizing" effects, they just create random flucuations but not
human ones.




That is not what I am talking about. You can play a guitar track, totally free-style (no click) and then have the program generate a click that lines up with what you played. Faster when you went faster, and slowing down when you did. Calculated to thousandths of a second (more actually). Then you can have realtracks and other musicians play to that (varying) tempo if desired. Just getting a count-in out of it is priceless. Click tracks can be very useful.
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Make your sound your own!

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#80806 - 07/28/10 09:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: rharv]
Playin In The Band Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/10
Posts: 89
Yes pushing and laying off is what live is all about, but if the first guitar player played to a click,
he records HIS feel against the click, then the second guitar player plays HIS feel against the track.
Then the Drummer records HIS feel against the track.

If they are all playing at the same time, then they will balnce each other out because their intuition takes over, using a click, each new player doesnt know where the previous musicians erred in micro timing.

Anyway, That's a pretty cool feature to be able to add a click to a varied tempo recording.
and then have the real tracks play to that.

In fact, now that I know it's possible, I will begin each song with a sketch guitar with no click.
I can see where that would help with humanizing, and thanks for the tip.

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#80807 - 07/28/10 09:12 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: Playin In The Band]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18587
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Rermember, in your first example above you said the first track (guitar) played his feel to a click ... that is exactly right. Bt there is *something* there to follow for everybody. That track may not play every measure of the song ...

Honestly, just having the count in is great.
Than having the click play the tempo while (for instance) that first guitar track is holding chords for four beats .. it helps in a lot of places. Most of us recommend using it. Saves a lot of studio time in the long run.

I use the ACW plugin to set tempo to an existing recoring. It usually gets it right in the ballpark for any final tweaks.
There is a lot that comes with the program.


Edited by rharv (07/28/10 09:15 PM)
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#80808 - 07/28/10 09:57 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Anybody know of Albums... [Re: rharv]
DanL Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 676
Loc: Fairfax, VA
I don't think I've ever read so much about click tracks...

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PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2018 For Windows Build 509 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download this free patch update at http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#509

Summary of changes:
Added: The drop station has MP3 and WMAL (lossless WMA) quadrants added.
Fixed: "Drag Audio as MP3" setting in the Plugin settings did not work when dragging a file to Windows Explorer.
Fixed: "Pause Play until MIDI or key received" setting did not work if using WAS audio drivers.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box Server was unable to communicate with BB2018.
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Fixed: Disabling "Include 2 bar lead-in" setting in the Render Song to Audio File dialog would cause videos to be out of sync.
Fixed: It was not possible to type the # sharp character into the chord sheet if using a French keyboard.
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Fixed: Song would stop playing at bar 8 after rendering to an audio file.
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