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"I suggest you read some articles."  You obviously have no idea how many articles I have read concerning music. That is funny. I'll take a cool down spell. That article you quoted does not mention a click once, so I am kind of lost as to how that applies to what I said. I agree, music has been going downhill fast, and certainly the commercial crap they are pumping out now. Some of it makes me shake my head... but not because of a click track. The Beatles were great writers and the strength of their songs still carries on. Those of us old enough to have worked with tape (you referred to yourself as an old-timer, remember) would not expect a finsished product to stay with a metronome. Tape stretch, speed, bouncing etc. Fading off the metronome over time would be the expected result. Let alone the vinyl aspect of the older stuff. PS I think you give Ringo a bit too much credit.
Last edited by rharv; 07/28/10 03:06 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Thanks. Your comment re the mix is a good one. The mix made more sense when I was doing lawyer humor albums where it was critical that every word be understood. My new project is neither law nor humor, but a 60's surf album of original tunes, and I'll make sure to turn down the lead vocal to avoid the situation you noted. I'm also going to have significant backup vocals which I do not want drowned out.
I'm not sure how to remedy your perception that it does not sound like a band. I already spread things out with panning. I could vary the volume of individual tracks relative to others more doing the course of the song. Perhaps I could add an element of anticipation or delay to some tracks. Any thoughts on achieving that particular goal from you or others?
Thanks again.
www.LawTunes.com: The LawTunes - The Musical Scales of Justice - Original Lawyer Rock & Roll www.SurfChords.com: The SurfChords - The Endless Summer Continues and The Wave Never Ends
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Well if the old stuff was great, and the new stuff sucks, and the old stuff didnt use clicks, but the new stuff does... mathematics
But here is an article that used to be on Groupeffort.com i had cpied but it's not on the site anymore.
The Drummer Vs. The Drum MachineAnalog drum machines have been around since the 60s, and were actually used on Sly Stone recordings in the early 70s. Digital drum machines revolutionized the pop sound of the 80s, with everyone from the Cars to Prince using them in their recordings and live performances. This revolution opened the door for a new form to take hold: rap. Machines were the perfect companinion for rappers in the late 80s who just needed a beat as a backdrop to their rhymes. Live drummers continued to be born though, and many have either consciously or subconsciously been influenced by the presence of the drum machine. This includes enduring the lame-o cracks that we're suddenly replaceable. Ah, the drummer jokes.
Regardless, this competition with machine resulted in many drummers feeling the heat to up their game: beats had to be cleaner, time had to be steadier, tuning had to more perfect, etc., etc. As a result modern drummers tend to reflect the stoicism of the machines. I would argue that while their may be gains to the art form in certain aspects, what's been lost is the soul that was once present in live drumming. A beat created by a human drummer is a thing to behold. No two drummers play the same beat the same way, each bringing his own musical preferences, life experiences and well, soul, to the table.
Little things like speeding up the tempo during a chorus and pulling it back during the verses (ala Charlie Watts), are becoming things of the past. While I'm on the subject just say no to click tracks. You think Black Sabbath used a click track on War Pigs? My work here is done ~ jb
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There are (and always have been) drummers that can keep time. The benefits the click offers are now functional.
By that I mean, now it's possible to have a drummer (or a machine) do the rythm section while getting tracks down, and then go back and re-do the drums with a different drummer, whatever. Track limitations in the tape days didn't really support this feature. The click is there as a marker. Both for the performer and for the engineers.
The trick these days is finding a drummer who can hear a click and play behind when needed and push it when it's called for. This is the new drummer. They have to know their licks, but also know their technique to make it all work.
Sure there are drummers (and bands) that record without one. If you have access to such a drummer take advantage of it (but use a click anyway for the other tracking and editing advantages). The click doesn't "have" to be a steady metronome; you can adjust it as needed thoughout a song. There is often a jump there when people say a metronome is a click track. It CAN be, but often is not.
I'll tell you that while BiaB is not perfect, you *could* adjust the click track throughout the song to match the feel. You can even record it with the human only feel, and then use the tempo map generated by the program to sync a click for a drummer, etc. (instance count in!) It doesn't have to be a perfect metronome to be useful.
I think you are putting blame on a click, when it lies elsewhere, more in the 'one man does the whole show' area. Nobody is great at everything.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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The click is essential today because of plug and play and diy's and daw's.
If you're gonna have other musicians play parts for you, they cant play after your part is done, they need to be playing at the same time. so when not playing at same time the click essential, but it also makes the music not nessecarily bad, but not "live" sounding. For rock music, live sounding is what your should be striving for.
For pop...or singer songwriter stuff, the new way is probably ok.
BTW, how does a drummer push or pull back behind a click, when the other instruments are doing something else. generally drummers play with a click in one ear, and a reference track in the other
ear, but the reference track is generated via a click track as well.
Now what do you mean about using all human feel in BIAB?
How is that done, Im not crazy about "humanizing" effects, they just create random flucuations but not
human ones.
When a drummer slows down, the rest of the band tends to adjust their timing, then when the bass player is behind, the drummer catches him, often without even realizing it, they just find themselves because the song structure mandates it.
Cant beat a real band, real band doesnt come close, but looking at what is out there, it might be the best there is.
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Well I think using midi sources like strings and such makes the rest of it sound like karaoke or midi.
But I did notice one song headin home on a holliday night used all real tracks and it sounded a bit better, but yet the music was so far behind you cant make it out.
Having said that, for your music, which is humour and quirky, the sound is not a destractor and may add to it, with all the electric bells and whistles. Nobody expects that to sound like a an artists album.
I was just comparing it to what a real band would sound like to see where BIAB stands in that sense.
But in the future, I'd lay off the midi stuff, if you want strings play them over the real band tracks just like you do when you sing.
U'd also might consider not using patterns that highlight individual notes like for example, there was one song that had a piano in it but the piano was doing solo lines throughout the chord progression, same thing with fingerpicking guitars in biab, they dont sound real.
The strumming tends to get mixed in with the rest better, but the individual notes stand out, and not in a good way.
It's good in a way, because im already learning what to do and what not to do if/when I use biab.
Last edited by Playin In The Band; 07/28/10 05:54 PM.
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Quote:
The click is essential today because of plug and play and diy's and daw's.
If you're gonna have other musicians play parts for you, they cant play after your part is done, they need to be playing at the same time. so when not playing at same time the click essential, but it also makes the music not nessecarily bad, but not "live" sounding. For rock music, live sounding is what your should be striving for.
I disagree, if done right it is seamless, and does facilitate multitracking, which is essential these days..
Quote:
For pop...or singer songwriter stuff, the new way is probably ok.
BTW, how does a drummer push or pull back behind a click, when the other instruments are doing something else. generally drummers play with a click in one ear, and a reference track in the other
ear, but the reference track is generated via a click track as well.
Dunno how to answer. Playing ahead or behind the click is an essential part of live feel.
Quote:
Now what do you mean about using all human feel in BIAB?
How is that done, Im not crazy about "humanizing" effects, they just create random flucuations but not
human ones.
That is not what I am talking about. You can play a guitar track, totally free-style (no click) and then have the program generate a click that lines up with what you played. Faster when you went faster, and slowing down when you did. Calculated to thousandths of a second (more actually). Then you can have realtracks and other musicians play to that (varying) tempo if desired. Just getting a count-in out of it is priceless. Click tracks can be very useful.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Yes pushing and laying off is what live is all about, but if the first guitar player played to a click,
he records HIS feel against the click, then the second guitar player plays HIS feel against the track.
Then the Drummer records HIS feel against the track.
If they are all playing at the same time, then they will balnce each other out because their intuition takes over, using a click, each new player doesnt know where the previous musicians erred in micro timing.
Anyway, That's a pretty cool feature to be able to add a click to a varied tempo recording.
and then have the real tracks play to that.
In fact, now that I know it's possible, I will begin each song with a sketch guitar with no click.
I can see where that would help with humanizing, and thanks for the tip.
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Rermember, in your first example above you said the first track (guitar) played his feel to a click ... that is exactly right. Bt there is *something* there to follow for everybody. That track may not play every measure of the song ...
Honestly, just having the count in is great.
Than having the click play the tempo while (for instance) that first guitar track is holding chords for four beats .. it helps in a lot of places. Most of us recommend using it. Saves a lot of studio time in the long run.
I use the ACW plugin to set tempo to an existing recoring. It usually gets it right in the ballpark for any final tweaks.
There is a lot that comes with the program.
Last edited by rharv; 07/28/10 06:15 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I don't think I've ever read so much about click tracks...
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Well things are starting to click.
Before you know it we might form a click around here.
and all this time the clock is clicking...
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When I import my BIAB tracks into my DAW I either nudge the track or use Waves Pitch to detune it a couple of cents to avoid sounding too sterile and I can force the drums to snap to a point just shy of the beat in places. Another thing is to make sure you are using the same reverb on everything, nothing sticks out more than having different room types on each track. There are a zillion ways to treat BIAB tracks, they key is that it's band in a BOX, don't leave it in the box Heres one that has all the midi tracks detuned and the real tracks nudged, I removed the BIAB default reverb and added my own over all and snapped the drums a bit to be a little ahead in spots http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=8727888&q=hi
Last edited by Zan Cantwell; 07/28/10 07:50 PM.
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Sounds pretty good Zan, although it's way loud. For that type of song it suffices.
But it still sounds like a lounge band in a smoky Holiday Inn. Or one guy doing a one man band in a holiday Inn. But again, that's the kind of song it is. A 50's style blueberry hill ish kind of song.
I dont know that would compete with todays sound, but it's a pretty decent recording of an original song.
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To click or not to click that is the question
or
is it better to have clicked and lost than never to have clicked at all....
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I had a simular discussion a few years back on another forum where I basically maintained that we were all deluding ourselves thinking that we where producing quality stuff and I defied someone to come up with a single artist that has achieved any kind of success as a totally single act. The posts went back and forth for a while with a lot of folks having input on both sides of the discussion until someone gave us a name. "Prince".
Get your tools together. Learn them. Use them musically. Be demanding on yourself and your finished product and stop whining. Just do it. If BIAB is the tool fine. If not fine. Use Sonar, Cubase, ProTools whatever. But do it.
Time now to follow my own advice.........
Dell 610 dual Monitor, win 7-10, Sonar Plat, ProTools 10 & 11, Reaper 4, BIAB/real Band 2022, Easy Drummer, Superior Drummer, Kontact Essentials, Personnel Orchestra, Korg Legacy Analog & Digital
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Well it's easy to throw a name around, I doubt very much Prince used band in a box, perhaps as a writing tool, but not on an album. But if somebody can verify this, I'll admit my ignorance.
Nobody is whining, We're trying to take a proven road to getting quality recordings, so far it hasnt been proven to be more than a musicians learning program and sketch composing tool.
And we know about protools and cubase. Those are completely different tools.
I like how you try to tell me to go to hell, but not actually say it...lolllllll
a true diplomat. but nothin gets by me.
Quit whining about my posts and find me some asnwers, okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk?
Tee hee.
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Boy you took all of that in the wrong way!
What I'm trying to say is I really don't care what program you use, one person is not going to be able to come up with the same quality of product as a group of persons of the same talent level. Some of the posts had went into working with other people and the problems with doing that vs being able to control everything by yourself. I know that I can't afford a band to go into a studio so I'm stuck with doing it all myself. However, I'm smart enough despite being 'polish' to know I will not have the interaction that working with others can give me. I have several tools. Others have several tools and most pro's have many tools. I'm sure that there is a reason that a lot of users here use several different programs in their work. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to make a top selling number one album or even a single with only BIAB. I have made a cd that has sold that was totally created on BIAB but I really don't brag about it because quite frankly it wasn't that good. I also have noticed that most of the material that is posted for review isn't all that great. I also notice that we are going to disagree on what is good and what isn't. Fact is, in one of your early posts you commented that the back ups sounded weak but the vocals where quite nice. I thought the vocals had way to much reverb and the although the backup was weak and could have used some pumping up the tracks where quite good. With better mixing (something BIAB doesn't have high marks in) the backup could have cooked as it had the right notes, licks,, for the songs.
I also said that whining about BIAB, or any of this isn't going to do anyone any good. You or me. I really think we just need to use the tools for what we are capable of getting out of them. A master carpenter gets a whole lot more out of a saw and hammer then I do. If I took the time to learn how to use the saw and hammer I wouldn't need to buy the whole Shop Smith to build something of value. If you think the tool is only good for sketching things out then use it for sketching things out and use the tool of your choice to build the master piece you're trying to achieve. Bottom line, though, not many people are talented enough or educated enough to really build the masterpiece by them selves. That was the reason for the reference to Prince.
Finally, if I insulted you, sorry. Didn't mean it that way. I should have been more tactful with my points. Quite frankly, one of my personal problems has been to blame the lack of equipment or software for my lack of progress. Truth is the fault has been with me for not spending the time learning my craft well enough and then practicing it. Have a great new book that has most recently turned me back on. Guerrilla Home Recoding, How to get Great Sound from any Studio by Karl Coryat.
Dell 610 dual Monitor, win 7-10, Sonar Plat, ProTools 10 & 11, Reaper 4, BIAB/real Band 2022, Easy Drummer, Superior Drummer, Kontact Essentials, Personnel Orchestra, Korg Legacy Analog & Digital
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I agree with what most of what you said, it's just if im going to use protools and all the OTHER stuff,
then why do I need BIAB. We're talking about BIAB, we're on a BIAB forum. We're hear to talk specifically about BIAB.
as for commenting on vocals etc, Im not going to hammer somebody completely by saying that not only do the tracks sound bad but so do the vocals. lol. Ill try to find a positive to comment on.
Bad singing certainly makes the track unlistenable at times.
but telling somebody their tracks are AWESOME, WOW THAT'S SOUNDS GREAT, is a disservice.
And I disagree with most people cant tell the difference. I doubt u'd see some kid going to a music store trying to find tablature for a BIAB guitar part that was used in somebody's recording.
But they would seek out tabs for a real guitar players work.
I think it depends on what style music you're doing.
But for people writing their own songs, my advice would be to use all real tracks, or only use top notch midi sounds.
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Band in a Box comes with a 30-day "no questions asked" money back guarantee.
That is like getting a full-featured demo for 30 days.
Why don't you try it out for yourself and if you don't like it, return it within the 30-day period?
That would make more sense than all of this, man.
--Mac
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Every good band I hear the drummer starts out with clicks. Then if he's good it doesn't change. Even Oscar Peterson played to the drummer. And try that with 10 notes per second and stay on time. Now I know a drummer we will call Bob. The guys who've played with him, and that's a lot of guys around here, all want to shoot him after an hour. He drifts. A lot. in and out of tempo. Starts out 3/4 and can change to 4/4 in a measure. Drives you nuts. But he has a rehersal garage, 6 grand worth of drum kit, a 100,000 buck Motor home a vette, and a big sound system. And he spends hours with his apple gear and drumming along to beatles and CCR and stuff, but the minute you turn off the tunes and he tries them, DRIFT. Now that sounds authentic, just don't dance to it. The thing with learning to play high end piano. The wife started at age 4, and ended after 4th year university music with a BA Mus, BEd Mus, and Honours BaMusicEd. She can play Bach like a machine. Perfect beat, set the metronome, shut it off and turn it on at the end and she's still on beat.
Scary.
We play together once or twice a month and I get glared at ALOT. But I'm 60 and still learning from the wee young lass.
You will never resolve the midi argument. Some terrible stuff shows up with local organists playing old standards on one radio station and I have to turn it off. A 20 year old drum machine and some midi strings and it sounds like click crap to John. Mom LOVES the sound. The violins are so real. (John rolls his eyes), the drummer is very good, (John loses his lunch). Go to any club where they are serving sizzling fajitas and clanking dishes and you music becomes a background sound. Don't kid yourself that more than 3 or 4 people out of 100 actually listen, and most of them wouldn't know elevator music from Peter Appleyard. (The latter may not be well known by 'yall').
Point is I think the horns sound bad, but play them, the guy who doesn't thinks they sound good but the guitar is off, but I like the guitar which I think sounds real. Hey if Oliver Gannon doesn't sound real who does?
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
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Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
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Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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Jan 19th, 2020
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