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I sure did not mean to stir the pot on the issue of cover tunes. Being a musician all my life and playing cover tunes has pretty much been a way of life down south. But saying that, I understand the issue of payment for works done and would hope anyone who writes, records, markets those tunes would get paid for their efforts. Though the "laws" say differently, it sure seems overboard for someone to have to pay for performing a cover tune if he or she is not getting paid for it. Now days nothing is free and such is the world we live in. Greed has come home to roost.
That said, lets all get back to doing "what brung us here" and that is playing music and refining BIAB so we can at least enjoy our artistic creations. Having the ability to write and arrange tunes is something that escapes some who are musically inclined. I suppose that is why most play others creations, some play both and few play only originals. I am going to sharpen my writing skills and hopefully post them in the forum. The folks involved in the forum and the gurus at BIAB are a special group of wonderful people that are getting harder and harder to find. I want to be a contributing part of this growing family
Marty
Music is what feelings sound like.
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Bob,
My only real complaints are about;
1. I can't post a cover tune showing how I use a product such as BIAB, RB, Carvin bass, Ampeg Amp etc. I'm not making money from the song just using it to demo a product and how I use it.
2. Charging fees to some small venues forcing them to not have music. That happened to me yesterday. A campground wanted to have me play but the license was too expensive. My music would not be a factor as to staying at this spot. They're full with or without me.And that starving artist never gets a cent of that money.
And no I do not like the present system of royalties. You sell your song for what it's worth at the time. If someone else makes money on it later so be it. They may loose money. Now the band that records that tune & sells the CDs is going to get the profit from those CDs like any other tangible product. That's Capitalism.Sorry my point of view.
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Sadly today this issue affected you in someway, but John look at it from another view. Say you are a new song writer. You write a few new songs, and some struggling new artist comes along and records a couple of them. He releases an album and it sells a reasonable amount but nothing like a gold or even better platinum volume, he tours like crazy and gains a small but loyal following, a few more albums, a couple more of your songs, and some years later he earns a larger following thru hard work and perseverance. His 4th album goes Platinum out of the gate and he is rocking the music world. His fans love him and his music (some of which is yours) and go back and buy his older albums, great but under your concept, neither of you get anything for that! You and he got paid up front and it is done.
Also the comparision to a guitar or amp is not realistic either. When Fender makes a strat for instance they make a lot of strats that look the same, play basically the same, and anyone with the cash can buy one. there is a constant market for that product. It is totally different from an artistic product that can be shared by copying it like music can. No one can burn a strat to a CD and give to a friend. Noone can download a strat and play it.
Anyway, i understand the frustration, i love to play covers, and the system is not perfect, but if these were our songs, and we had gone through what most artist go through to build their legacies we would want some level of protection.
Interesting discussion to hear others thoughts. I wish things were different, but they are not. Bottom line. as it was said it is very unlikely that anyone gets busted for playing covers for personal enjoyment, or for friends, or even for small parties and private venues.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Quote:
Quote:
Q: What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A: A good start.
Yikes -- lawyer jokes! Guess I better hide.
www.LawTunes.com: The LawTunes - The Musical Scales of Justice - Original Lawyer Rock & Roll www.SurfChords.com: The SurfChords - The Endless Summer Continues and The Wave Never Ends
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We don't need ASCAP anymore then we need Unions. That song writer performer example should be handled by a contract between the parties. We don't need a third party skimming off most of the money to support a bunch of executives.Whatever works for the parties involved.
Mr. LawTunes please give an opinion.
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That is a good point John, but most singers, songwriters, and others getting into the business, are vulnerable to being ripped off big time. Most artist make little or nothing from their first album or two, and have to grind it out on the road to pay the bills. Song writers in particular need some sort of protection. Whether it is AScap/BMI or some sort of other method.
I do hear you on the main issue though and that is why it has to cost so much.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Personally, aside from the sometimes excessive profits made by some companies at the expence of the recording artist..., I have no problem with songwriters receiving royalties - actually, I'm all for it.
BUT what I REALLY object to is the continuation of copyright protection after the artist has died. Who benefits? Not the artist. His/her kids - well maybe, but why should they. If the artist was any kind of provider the kids have already been looked after. Why encourage them to not produce anything themselves 'cos it's easier to ride on mom or dad's back?
The ONLY argument I've ever heard that had any merit went something along the lines of: 'If copyright didn't extend past the author's death, what's to stop people murdering the artist in order to get access to their intellectual property when it becomes public domain?'.
In the end, what's to stop them murdering the artist anyway? There are laws agsinst murder, and I don't know about the States, but there are also laws in Australia to prevent (well, lets be honest, intended to prevent - who knows how well they really work) people profitting from crime - including murder...
Patents last 25 years regardless of the inventors lifespan. Why don't they get extended to match copyright? Because the world would grind to a standstill, that's why. No one would be able to develop anything that uses prior art. Of course, that wouldn't stop people in countries that don't honour copyright or patent laws... As an example, look at how knock off textile products affect the original designers (shoes, handbags, clothing etc..)
I just feel there HAS to be a better balance than the current state which really benefits ONLY the recording companies and the lawyers.
Hmm, /rant...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
BUT what I REALLY object to is the continuation of copyright protection after the artist has died. Who benefits? Not the artist. His/her kids - well maybe, but why should they. If the artist was any kind of provider the kids have already been looked after. Why encourage them to not produce anything themselves 'cos it's easier to ride on mom or dad's back?
Lawry, you're not thinking straight. All we're talking about is personal property. A song, a copyright is personal property just like your house, car, bank account whatever. Are you saying you want all that to go to the state when you die, you don't get a chance to leave it to anyone? I doesn't have to be your kids. You just want all your stuff to go to the state so everybody can share? If you're fortunate enough to be worth 10 million when you croak, and your song happens to be a million of it, that's ok, it's the state's now? That's a 100% estate tax. Most of us don't want that but whatever floats your boat...
That song/painting/book belongs to the artists estate just like everything else he owns.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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G'day Bob,
Nooo, you miss my point. Intellectual Property DOESN'T go to the state, it becomes public domain when copyright expires. The reality is that aside from painting and sculpture type artworks (which are objects) I am aware of no IP that commonly becomes more valuable after the artists death - Note I said "commonly", there are some aberrations like Elvis and Michael Jackson, who in any case BOTH left substantial financial assets behind for their heirs.
The problem with IP staying out of the public domain for extended periods is, as I said, the difficulties that arise that can/will/do prevent people from building on prior art. We recently had a case here in Oz where "Men at Work" lost a copyright action for a short quote from a children's song "Kookaburra sits in an old gum tree". The original author; Marion Sinclair, died in 1988. She gets nothing from the court case. A business that acquired the IP rights does, so not even her heirs (if any) get a cent. All that results is the lawyers get a boatload of money, Larrikin Music (who acquired the copyright) get a boatload of money and "Men at work" have to pay royalties on an 11 note quote... (11 notes by my count - dunno what the court said it was). Neither the lawyers nor Larrikin did anything to earn the money. This is what I consider wrong. If Marion Sinclair was still alive, then I'd have no problem with it, she would be the beneficiary of something that she arguably earned and could leave the cash or assets acquired from the cash to her heirs. The rest are just parasites.
Technically speaking, every time you play a song, even in the confines of your own home, you owe a royalty payment. Think about that. Wanna sing Happy Birthday to your kid? Pay a royalty, which WON'T go to the author as she's dead.
What about a sax player who uses some of "Bird's" solos to practice - should pay a royalty to whoever hold's his IP these days ya know... Yes, I'm aware there are some small provisions allowable for education purposes but they are quite limited and easily circumvented if the copyright holder wants to spend enough money.
Where would any of us be if we could no longer play anything without paying a royalty every time we quote a riff?
I am a great supporter of copyright - for the original author/artist. IMHO NO ONE else has any call to claim benefits from someone else's IP. There has to be a limitation somewhere or we won't even be able to open our mouths soon.
/rant
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Does not account for the artist who dies prematurely, leaving wife and kids behind.
Besides that, the precedent of property ownership and its passage to relatives is there.
The song is real property, no?
Yes.
I've said this before and I'll say it again here: "The very same people who, right now, do not own any song copyrights that are worth good money but complain loudly about the issue as it stands would be the same ones complaining the loudest about being ripped off if they ever did own a worthy copyright."
The live venue problem is old and pretty much solved, only the few venue owners who can't or won't pay for the licensing to be able to present music are the ones trying to buck the system. I'd bet that if the live music was responsible for making any significant part of their income, then they could afford the present royalty licensing system, which is based upon the number of patrons that can legally occupy the venue.
It is the Internet where we are confronted with a new situation.
--Mac
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I am not against ownership of the property. I am not against the artist being paid. What I am against is the blanket rules developed and carried on by a bureaucracy of lawyers & high paid execs.
I was a house builder for many years. When I sold a house we agreed on a price and that was it. Now if I had wanted to I could have had the deed drafted up so that each time the house changed hands I would receive 20%. Sounds sort of stupid doesn't it? The same arrangement with songs.
I'm just sort of frustrated to hear a lot of my fellow musicians talking about loosing their jobs because ASCAP/BMI has come in and demanded large fees from small clubs that can't afford this extra burden and then the $$$ doesn't even go to the artist it goes to this big perpetual machine. Sorta like the direction the USA is headed.
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Quote:
I am not against ownership of the property. I am not against the artist being paid. What I am against is the blanket rules developed and carried on by a bureaucracy of lawyers & high paid execs.
If you knew the real history of the thing, you might feel differently.
Actually, it was the artists, the musicians, the bandleaders, etc. who at one time campaigned to be protected from the literal theft of their means of supporting themselves and their families.
And it still is.
The lawyers and executives are actually the paid servants of the artists here.
Quote:
I was a house builder for many years. When I sold a house we agreed on a price and that was it. Now if I had wanted to I could have had the deed drafted up so that each time the house changed hands I would receive 20%. Sounds sort of stupid doesn't it? The same arrangement with songs.
Bad analogy - the house is built ONCE. After that, its value is based upon it being there and being real, hence the term, "real" estate.
The song performance, on the other hand, has what we call an *intrinsic* value.
Quote:
I'm just sort of frustrated to hear a lot of my fellow musicians talking about loosing their jobs because ASCAP/BMI has come in and demanded large fees from small clubs that can't afford this extra burden and then the $$$ doesn't even go to the artist it goes to this big perpetual machine. Sorta like the direction the USA is headed.
That is not true.
The artist who created the song and owns the copyright does indeed get periodic checks from the licensing agencies.
As a matter of fact, some of those executives whom you demean are employed fulltime to expedite such dispensation fairly, based on formula.
Any venue selling alcohol should be making a tidy profit. The fee, based upon the seating count in the venue, is actually quite affordable. Some places may have more seating than they actually use at any one time, which may be problematic. But if they want to use live music performance for a draw and also want to have musicians who are playing cover songs and not all original music, they *should* pay the licensing for the priviledge.
You should visit the webpages involved in this licensing and see for yourself what the fee charges, typically based on 6 months or a year, really are.
You should also investigate the typical markup on a beer, and on a mixed drink.
The venue owner *should* just consider this rather small licensing fee as just another part of the cost of operation and figure the single sales prices accordingly. They won't go broke, because any and all costs of operation of any business, taxation, licensing, overhead, etc. must be figured into the retail prices of what they are selling. That is passed on to the customers in the sale prices.
--Mac
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If you knew the real history of the thing, you might feel differently.
I do know the history. It's the same as all the other Unions. They started out doing good but now............
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Technically speaking, every time you play a song, even in the confines of your own home, you owe a royalty payment. Think about that. Wanna sing Happy Birthday to your kid? Pay a royalty, which WON'T go to the author as she's dead.
/rant
From ASCAP-
"A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.) "
There are other exceptions too (education for one).
The more ya know!
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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ASCAP/BMI, Harry Fox Agency, etc. - are NOT unions!
--Mac
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[quote From ASCAP- "...other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances. "
Like here in our pgmusic forum family 
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I don't live in the USA...
That said, there is much commonality in our copyright laws - by design AFAIK. Nevertheless, there are some differences and though I'd need to check it again to be sure (and I've been working at a frustrating corporate email migration that's not going well for way too long and am way too tired to bother checking) I seem to recall that our laws are tighter in that area. IIRC, scratch the "social acquaintances"... 'n I'm not real certain about the "small circle of a family" either.
Mac, with respect, I feel that copyright should not last 2 lifetimes as it does now. Nor should it be able to be assigned to a corporation. Want to look after your kids? That's fine by me, assign them each a share in your will. But it should not last an additional lifetime. How long it should last is an interesting question; till they're 18, or maybe 21 or perhaps 25? Maybe, but an extra 70 years is too long. Again, it's about being able to build on prior art without fear of persecution. I refer again to the "Men at work" case - 11 notes - which they claim was unintentional (as they would I suppose...) and it may well cost them millions to be paid in favour of people who did NOTHING to earn it. Eleven lousy notes...
If I patent, say, an artificial heart that can save potentially hundreds or even thousands of lives, I can only get 25 years protection. Where is the equity? Which approach is the correct one? I don't know.
I will say that I am a great believer in preserving wealth within a family. I want to leave my kids better off than I am, not worse. And their kids should be better off again, so I won't be spending their inheritance, but I also expect them to produce things themselves. I did not raise parasites, I raised 2 men and a woman able to stand on their own feet.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I'd just name my bar/club "its social acquaintances" or "a small circle of a family" so I was in the excluded list. 
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I agree completely with copyright owners royalties, rights, etc. But there are some exemptions to what bob stated. Here are a few excerpts from the U.S. Copyright law (c i r c u l a r 9 2, 2009 that may be of interest for the scenarios discussed (the last exemption may be of interest to those that play at private or family social gatherings.
Sorry about the lengthy reply, but here is the actual language of the provision rather than my paraphrasing of it.
§ 110 · Limitations on exclusive rights:
Exemption of certain performances and displays43
"performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course
of face-to-face teaching activities of a nonprofit educational institution, in
a classroom or similar place devoted to instruction..."
"(10) notwithstanding paragraph (4), the following is not an infringement
of copyright: performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work in the
course of a social function which is organized and promoted by a nonprofit
veterans’ organization or a nonprofit fraternal organization to which the general
public is not invited,..."
"performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work or of a dramatic or musical
work of a religious nature, or display of a work, in the course of services
at a place of worship or other religious assembly"
"performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work otherwise than
in a transmission to the public, without any purpose of direct or indirect
Subject Matter and Scope of Copyright § 110
26 Copyright Law of the United States
commercial advantage and without payment of any fee or other compensation
for the performance to any of its performers, promoters, or organizers, if—
(A) there is no direct or indirect admission charge; or
(B) the proceeds, after deducting the reasonable costs of producing the
performance, are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable
purposes and not for private financial gain, except where the copyright
owner has served notice of objection to the performance under the following
conditions:
(i) the notice shall be in writing and signed by the copyright owner
or such owner’s duly authorized agent; and
(ii) the notice shall be served on the person responsible for the performance
at least seven days before the date of the performance, and shall
state the reasons for the objection; and
(iii) the notice shall comply, in form, content, and manner of service,
with requirements that the Register of Copyrights shall prescribe
by regulation;.."
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Quote:
A business that acquired the IP rights does, so not even her heirs (if any) get a cent.
Sigh, I really don't get it Lawry. You're a businessman. "A business acquired the IP rights". How? THEY PAID FOR THEM. That means they're entitled to a return on their money just like you would be when you acquire any inventory for your business. You want that tune to be public domain? Why, when someone was obviously willing to pay for it? You could have bought it, maybe you should be looking for other old tunes that may be available for not too much money. Why don't you get that concept?
Also, we're not talking about personal use in your home or car. Of course there's no problem with practicing Bird's solos or anything like that. But if you record your version of Yardbird Suite and post it on the internet, big problem. You don't own the rights to do that.
And, you have no idea what songs get a second life many years later. I've seen tons of movies where some old classic song is the theme music. Mission Impossible is one example. Lalo Shifrin is still around but he's about 80. The Mission Impossible theme was basically dead property until those movies came out and resurrected it. I'm sure he been collecting royalties from reruns of the old TV show but I haven't seen that show listed anywhere for a long time so it probably wasn't much. But now with three huge movies? Happens all the time and not just with the big names so you can't say that music can't get more valuable after the writer's death.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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