Hi,
I was wondering how suspended chords should be notated in Biab. I've been experimenting with the chord builder and here are my assumptions:
1. C2 is C D G in Biab (should be called Csus2)
2. C4 is C F G Bb in Biab (should be called C7sus4)
C7sus is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C7susb5 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C7susb9 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C9sus is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
C9susb5 is C F G Bb in Biab (should also be called C7sus4)
3. Csus is C F G in Biab (should be called Csus4)
4. I cannot enter the chord C7sus2 (C D G Bb) in Biab
5. C7alt is Db E G Bb in Biab?
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Am I correct? Someone else who can give this a thought? Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Superbron
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
--- Guess you mean : C E Gb, not Ab.
There are other problems here, but let me first take perhaps the most problematic of these, #5.
A C7alt means that neither the fifth (G) nor the ninth (D) appears unaltered. So, it could be a flat five (Gb), a sharp five (G#), a flat nine (Db) and/or a sharp nine (D#). You would have a C root. You would also have, as you mentioned, the minor seventh (Bb). There would be no G, but there could be a Db. And it's not a suspended chord.
Superbron, there are a few guesses and assumptions going on in your list.
I would suggest a good book on Music Theory that goes into the methodology of the Fake Chord naming convention. There are likely some free online tutorials for the web-searching, as well.
Not going to address them all, but:
Quote:
4. I cannot enter the chord C7sus2 (C D G Bb) in Biab
BB doesn't support all possible chords yet. If it isn't in the chordlist, then we have to use a substitute that will sound okay but not notate correctly. Gm/C would be one of those subs that would yield the same notes in most style files.
Quote:
5. C7alt is Db E G Bb in Biab?
Could be. The "Alt" chord is a situation of choice. Alt means that we can rather freely substitute the b5, #5 and b9, #9 in the chord, with taste as to the Melody or other considerations, of course. BiaB may play the b9 as you list here, but other times or other style picks may play one -- or more -- of the other possibilities along with the base triad. For example, it might play C7#5b9, equally acceptable. With this specific chord, it is truly a jazz thing.
Quote:
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
"Cb5" would spell the flat five chord of C, E, Gb -- but C5 is the Powerchord, the two-noter so loved by rock guitarists, the C and the G together. C5b doesn't ring a bell with me at the moment. If you have it on a chart, it might be an attempt to notate the Tritone, C and Gb, played together as two notes. This one would not likely be of value in the key of C, though for the C and Gb together are the tritone D7 or the tritone of Ab7 and is interchangeable in those two keys.
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Well, it may depend upon context, but if confronted with it standalone like this, I'd have to call it a "C5add6" -- whoch would be thoroughly confusing to the reader. Depending upon keysig, this one might really be a skeletal Am7, or you might, in a weird sort fo way, call it a C5add13, which is the same as saying add6, same note, A, but indicates playing it outside the octave, away from the G, to avoid the G-A side-by-side thing.
A good book on the subject is recommended here. Trying to figure out the theory by studying the BiaB program will only get you so far -- and is likely to lead to errors. The real way to figure out the naming and its convention is to simply know the scales, the major and minor scales. The numbers are derived from the scales and it is then only a matter of knowing which step of the scale is the name for the key you are in. Knowing this stuff will also improve your playing skills, so no loss there at all.
Everyon I know who has avoided getting into this subject and then finally "bites the bullet" says the same thing after only a week or two dealing with it, "This is easier than I thought it would be!"
And it is.
--Mac
Quote:
6. C5b is C E Ab in Biab?
--- Guess you mean : C E Gb, not Ab.
Biab only plays the notes C E Ab, it wonders me too, because I expected C Gb or C E Gb as well, because of the 5b.
Quote:
There are other problems here, but let me first take perhaps the most problematic of these, #5.
A C7alt means that neither the fifth (G) nor the ninth (D) appears unaltered. So, it could be a flat five (Gb), a sharp five (G#), a flat nine (Db) and/or a sharp nine (D#). You would have a C root. You would also have, as you mentioned, the minor seventh (Bb). There would be no G, but there could be a Db. And it's not a suspended chord.
Ok, thanks: this is a strange chord indeed. In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
Mac,
Thanks for your time and answers.
#4: Gm/C is the best sub I guess. thanks!
#5: In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
#6: C and Gb (F#) is rather clashing, so I was amazed about the presence of this chord (?) in Biab and even more amazed that Biab is playing the notes C E Ab,whilst I expected C Gb or C E Gb.
#7: C5add6 or Csus6 are no excepted input for Biab :-(
I am studying chords, scales and progressions at the moment, hence my questions here. The rather normal chords such as C, Cmin, Cdim, C7, Cmaj7, etc. aren't the problem: theory and Biab are consonant there :-), but it's the more 'jazzy' and less used chords that are causing some clashes between theory and Biab for me.
Cheers,
Superbron
Quote:
#5: In Biab the notes that are played when I enter C7alt are: C E G Bb and Db. Strange though that C and Db don't seem to clash, while they only have a half tone interval.
Superbron
That's a bit odd, with the G, but it's possible, especially if you look at the chords before and after, or if it's a passing tone.
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music. Contemporary jazz players have similarly become used to the sound of altered chords, and find no dissonance. Plus, it's a whole lot of fun to play over because there are so many things you can play on it.
Quote:
#7: Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
I came up with C5/A, although Biab accepts this chord it doesn't play an A as bass note. The only notes played are C and G of the C5 :-(
Quote:
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music.
Thanks Matt, I only realize this now :-) Should this be due to the fact that the half tone interval is next to the root note? Are there other chords with half tone intervals that don't clash?
Hi Superbron.
I just tried C5b. The notes it played for me were C-E-Ab as well. Strange. I think you have stumbled onto a bug. C-E-Ab would be either Caug or possibly Cadd(b13).
Regards,
Noel
Quote:
I just tried C5b. The notes it played for me were C-E-Ab as well. Strange. I think you have stumbled onto a bug. C-E-Ab would be either Caug or possibly Cadd(b13).
Hi Noel,
Glad I'm not the only one. Did you try the other chords I mentioned as well?
Cheers,
Superbron
Quote:
Quote:
About the dissonance of two tones a half-step apart, you are already used to a more melodious example, the Maj7 chord. CMaj7 has both a C and a B natural, and they sound fine together, even next to each other. For example, try voicing it on a piano like this, going up: B, C, E, G. It should sound fine, partially because we are used to that sound in Western music.
Thanks Matt, I only realize this now :-) Should this be due to the fact that the half tone interval is next to the root note? Are there other chords with half tone intervals that don't clash?
Plenty. The variants of Maj7, such as Maj9 and Maj13.
The placement of the tones has no bearing. I just gave you one inversion of the chord.
For another example, a 13 chord has both the 13 (an octave above the sixth) and the minor seventh, so that yields a half-step 'clash'. Same for a #9 chord, with a half-step between the major third and the sharp nine (again, an octave apart).
But 'clash' is in the ear of the beholder (behearer?). I don't hear a 'clash' in any of those chords. Others might, but I hear an opportunity.
Quote:
But 'clash' is in the ear of the beholder (behearer?). I don't hear a 'clash' in any of those chords. Others might, but I hear an opportunity.
I guess that must be the case. Thanks Matt.
Anyone who has some ideas on the suspended chords?
Quote:
Anyone who has some ideas on the suspended chords?
I guess not...
Hi Mac,
One of the simple quips I came up with to dispell the fear of music theory to my students is, "If you can count to 7 you may not make a rocket scientist... but you can make a rock star!"
I do have one question I would like your opinion on. You make mention of the 13th chord in your example. I have been told as a guitar player being the 13th chord contains all the notes in the scale to play the 1st, 3rd and which ever ones that are within comfort to reach as sufficient. I know you are a jazz player. Would you say that was good advice?
Thanks,
RickeG
RickeG, I'm not Mac, but then again, he didn't use a 13th chord in his post. So, not sure who you are asking.
A 13th chord does not contain "all the notes in the scale".
C13 for example has, going up from C root: C E G Bb D and A
You don't have to play all of them. In fact, a guitarist would often leave out the root if there is a bass playing it. A guitarist can tell you better.
Quote:
I do have one question I would like your opinion on. You make mention of the 13th chord in your example. I have been told as a guitar player being the 13th chord contains all the notes in the scale to play the 1st, 3rd and which ever ones that are within comfort to reach as sufficient. I know you are a jazz player. Would you say that was good advice?
Thanks,
RickeG
That's about the size of it for the guitarist, Ricke.
When I want the guitar to sound like the full, rich 13 chord, like when there is no keyboardist grabbing it (when there's a B3 player, just play a 6 and stand back *grin*) then I usually grab the following pattern:
Let's say it is a G13.
3,X,3,4,5,5
For the G(1),X,F(7),B(3),E(13) and A(9)
I've also been guilty of just grabbing a 6/9, too, or even just the dom7 if that full-fisted keyboardist is gonna do what most do when they see the big 13.
As you know, with the guitar, we stack the notes according to the "grab" or according to what's possibole and the guitar player must have a slightly different way of looking at the chords in order to get the job accomplished.
The one interval I will drop (not play) almost automatically is the fifth. Unless the song calls for the powerchord, I don't like to play the fifth as part of the chord on the guitar too much, especially not on the lower bout, for it will create that big, thick, juicy "resultant" when played alongside the root. The Resultant is a ghost note generated by the two together, that is one octave lower than the root at one half amplitude. When there are extensions on the chord, it can often be a recipe for mud city.
--Mac
Hi Ricke and others,
I'm a piano player and start with the basic voicings described in Dan Haerle's book of jazz piano voicings:
One handed voicings for left hand starting from the bottom up:
E A Bb D (that gets you the third, the 13th, the seventh and the 9th all with one hand!)
and inverted starting at the 7th:
Bb D E A
these may be simplified as follows:
E Bb D for a basic 9th chord
and
Bb E A for a three note 13th
These voicings go together with related minor and major chords in basic ii V I progressions and for the tri-tone substitutions that you hear all over jazz recordings. Haerle's book is a great suggestion if you're looking for how to voice chords that you find in fake book charts. Another good suggestion is the Mike Tracy book on piano voicings for non-Keyboardists which extends the voicings above into two handed forms.
Thanks,
Bill
Thanks Mac, It’s funny you mention the 6/9. Because that is in the vain I use to cover my tracks and hope that none of the soloists object. It has the soft tones as well as can resolve to the 1 as a regular 13th would. I want to find myself being able to hold my own in a trio setting for some odd reason there would not be a pianist around (should that ever be). In fact, I am going to look at Billy’s two suggestions as to what to play in a fake book setting. I have a couple of the jazz fake books. Though I can find the chords charted I would like to be able to learn how others have handled the movements to where your hand is not jumping the neck as a live chicken on a hot frying pan.
That is where I have been enjoying the BIAB songs. Now that I understand a little about these chord structures I am wanting to learn how to move from one to the other in the context of a song.
Thanks all for always being willing to lend your expertise and most of all for you patience as I am trying to really enjoy this genre while in keeping with its true nature.
Learn the patterns for the "inside chords" and use those, with less notes in the stack, typically three-note or four-note stacks rather than Barre chords.
--Mac
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Superbron
I think it's just an 'ambiguous' triad and might have many uses, because it suggests some form of incompleteness ( no third) , and therefore it can belong to many keys and modes. You could say that it is some form of Lydian chord with a G,A suspension that would resolve on Fsharp, A
or it could be an incomplete dominant chord like a C9 chord
it could be a Cm6 without the minor third
it could be almost anything, if you start including possibilities with inversions
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Superbron
How about, C5add6 or C5add13
add6 would imply that the A is ihe same octave with that G.
--Mac
Quote:
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Superbron
I think it's just an 'ambiguous' triad and might have many uses, because it suggests some form of incompleteness ( no third) , and therefore it can belong to many keys and modes. You could say that it is some form of Lydian chord with a G,A suspension that would resolve on Fsharp, A
or it could be an incomplete dominant chord like a C9 chord
it could be a Cm6 without the minor third
it could be almost anything, if you start including possibilities with inversions
Thanks avatars_the_titletrack. I am experimenting with these 'chords'/triads of incompleteness. I like the feel they have, resoving it to the expected chord after suspension.
Quote:
Quote:
7. Does anybody know how C G A is called in music theory?
Superbron
How about, C5add6 or C5add13
add6 would imply that the A is ihe same octave with that G.
--Mac
Thanks Mac,
The problem is that Biab doesn't accept these 'chords' :-(
Cheers,
Superbron
The way i like to compose on the guitar involves this sort of incomplete 3 note voicing but thought of as a constant treble interval type (e.g alternating m/maj 3rds or m/maj 2nds ) moving in counterpoint with a bass note.
I find it the easiest way of keeping all the elements of harmony melody and rhythm in mind at each point in the tune.
Generally speaking I let the movement of the inner and outer voices determine the key/scale movement of the tune which is gathered up later and analysed for implied changes.
Just a shame you can't replicate these voicings in BIAB without a lot of effort or without turning them into complete chords that become too oppressive in their completeness.
I have a method where I reconfigure the stylemaker patterns to have just two roots (one on C4) and a seventh. You have to use the velocity command to filter out unwanted voices)
Each 3 note chord can then be input as some kind of 7th chord over a bass note.
regards
Alan
Quote:
How about, C5add6 or C5add13
add6 would imply that the A is ihe same octave with that G.
--Mac
good point!
Quote:
I am experimenting with these 'chords'/triads of incompleteness. I like the feel they have, resoving it to the expected chord after suspension.
yes I love that too. The important thing to remember is that the note of resolution must not be played while the suspension is happening....for example, if the music plays the notes C,G,A , none of the other parts or instruments should play an Fsharp, otherwise the effect is ruined.
"The problem is that Biab doesn't accept these 'chords' :-("
Hi Superbron,
I do notice there is a lot of discussion as to how to get BIAB to play various types of chords.
Do you already play an instrument? The workaround I do when coming across either BIAB not containing the particular chord configuration or the RT not having been programmed with the chord is to select a chord closest to my desired chord that is missing in BIAB/RT. Then, I will play the missing intervals on my guitar or piano. In the case of the "C,G,A" chord specifically because you do not want the 3rd (E) in the chord to be played I would set the BIAB to a "C5" and play the format you have described on your live instrument or voice for that matter.
I may be speaking alone here being one who is still trying to learn all the complexities to this program. But, when I think of what BIAB is supposed to do in that of accompaniment, it is not foreign to my logic to think I am the primary player/instrumentalist on the track. How I apply that is as long as BIAB is setting up the "accompanying" process by supplying key parts playing the essential notes, I can lay on top of that any embellishments such as polychords, or other chord derivatives that depart from the standard chord selection.
The only time that practice does not work is when you don't play an instrument and thus you are now relying upon BIAB to be your sole arranger/band. Then, I am afraid in that case, you may be going in a direction that BIAB may not have been built for.
I hope I did not step on any toes here. Again, if I misrepresented the logic of BIAB in the arena of music accompaniment, please feel free to correct me.
Thanks!
RickeG
I feel that BIAB should be working to obviate the need for the player to adjust his/her playing to the dicates/limitations of the program. Its not such a big stretch to include a function that modifies the chord output and it's far from a question of taking BIAB away in a different direction from what it was designed for or making it a complete arranging solution. I would have thought this is the one area a basic auto- accompaniment program could be looking to improve.
Asking the player to sight-read the chord output back so that they can add a note to the accompaniment at just the right point may be possible but its surely a case of the tail wagging the dog.
Another way of obtaining the desired voicing is to move the chord track to the melody channel then use the melody/harmony function (low harmony note) shifted up a couple of octaves to add another note. But this means cutting/pasting between two sets of changes, one for the chord and then another for the single added note. Then back to the original changes to keep the bass moving properly.
If you can get BIAB to output just three chord tones, then a polychord using the same method is obtainable, this time using other melody/harmony voices to achieve the second chord.
The difficulty at the moment in BIAB and with this threads focus in mind, is in getting fewer rather than more notes in the chord. Dropping 7ths, 5ths or 3rds is the way to achieve the voicings talked about here and as i said it's not hard to envisage a function that could achieve this.
regards
alan