Is there a way to add breaks within a 4 bar measure that exceeds
the 4 chord/beat capability? I have a tune that I would like to add
a 5 chord/beat (Clave) pattern break, ex: [123-45] The way Help describes
doing this is by adding C. (rest) or C.. (burst) or C... (hold), also by
indicating the instruments you want to sound by adding C.bd (bass & drums, etc.)
It's my understanding the way to add chords in a 4 beat measure is by the following.
1st Measure 2nd Measure
example: [/ / / / ] [ / / / /]
[C, B D, E ] [ X X X X]
1st two beats - 2nd two beats
With the example above, how is it possible to do this without utilizing the
2nd measure, where I would want to repeat the 1st?
When saved as a midi file from BIAB, I've been trying to do this using a dedicated
sequencer, but I thought there might be another way of approaching or doing this
within BIAB.
T.I.A.
Wrkinit
Hi Wrkinit,
A bar of 4/4 can only have four chords in it. You could try using double tempo so that it takes two bars to play your rhythm, rather than one bar. Then you'd be able to get eight chords in the bar. Notes Norton makes and sells style disks that do this.
http://www.nortonmusic.com/Regards,
Noel
In my initial post I inadvertently indicated beats when I should have
stated measures. So it's a 5 *beat* clave pattern, done within (1)
four beat measure, instead of spreading it over 2 measures. So BIAB
only allows just 4 beats/chords to a measure? It's unfortunate that
the resolution for a bar or measure can not be altered or adjusted
for more than 4?
I guess having to use 2 measures to make a 5 beat break or to use
multiple or more than 4 chords, in a single bar, will be in the next
upgrade? Hmmm, I doubt it?
Wrkinit
F5 -> Then look for the "Number of beats" for the bar in the window.
Change it to 5.
Then do the same for the following bar and change it back to 4 again.
Getting the desired Clave may be trickier. Might involve change of Style at the bar, might involve making a custom Style for the bar, might be hard to match with original Style, depending.
--Mac
Hey Mac, I appreciate your feedback, but have you or anyone else tried,
with success, using this method? What I found was it's whacked. I ended
up using a sequencer program for the ppq/resolution to make it happen, a
simple straight clave. This pattern, most often used in Latin music, be
it 2-3 or 3-2 is a main stay of the music. I used L_50-CHA.STY, 50's
Cha-Cha (Salsa) using the BIAB way to add a 2 measure break. What I ended
getting wasn't even close, due to the inability or lack there of trying to
get the program to make it work and sound right.
This is another point, if midi is or was an integral part of the program,
and the basis for it's early popularity, why haven't upgrades addressed this
and other *midi* related issues? I realize the current trend is in audio, but
give me a break, isn't there enough of related stuff already on the market that
does audio? What about keeping midi relevant?
Still,
Wrkinit (or trying)
Likely can get the desired Claves by first making the one bar into TWO bars, then using the F5 dialog to make the first bar 2 beats and the second bar 3 beats for the 2-3 Clave, or doing the opposite, first bar 3 beats and second bar 2 beats for the 3-2 clave. Don't forget to return the following bar to the original Time Signature.
It may also depend on the Style in use as to whether it sounds "right" to you or not.
I don't recommend things here that I have not actually done first, at least not without informing of that.
--Mac
Cita:
... So it's a 5 *beat* clave pattern, done within (1)
four beat measure, instead of spreading it over 2 measures.Wrkinit
On all the latin styles, like Guaguancó, Cha Cha, Guaracha, Rumba...,the clave is a rhythmic figure that always extends over two bars.
By example, the "2-3" clave:
on the first bar, Quarter Note rest/ Quarter Note/Quarter Note/Quarter Note rest/
on the second bar, Quarter Note with dot/ Quarter Note with dot/ Quarter Note/
The four chords by bar limit on Band in a box not allow you to reproduce the clave in one bar.
And this is my point. If the resolution/ppq were updated, it wouldn't
take 2 bars to do a 1 bar pattern. I have done the method as suggested,
and it sounded awful, due to the subtlety of Clave and the 50's
Cha-Cha style I'm using.
Spreading it out over two bars doesn't compensate for the *and* 1 feeling
of *most* Clave patterns, which BIAB does not allow due to the 4 beat/chord
resolution limitation. Shifting between (.) quarter, rests or 1/8 - 1/16th
notes or rests, can not be done in 1 bar with BIAB, which it should be able
to do. Using 2 bars or measures still won't allow the delay feeling which is
crucial. What everyone is describing is stiff and not as smooth as
clave can be. Using the 2nd bar/measure for the last 2 beats of the 5 beat
pattern seems and sounded convoluted. IMO
I was able to get what I wanted by using a dedicated sequencer, where you can
make those kinds of minute adjustments. I'm also using chords, bass and percussion
for the break. The fact that it takes 2 bars to create the pattern is not the
real issue, it's the subtlety of the shifting or spacing of the beats in a
single bar.
I do appreciate the responses, but here again, why hasn't pgmusic addressed
"midi" updating, as opposed to letting it go by the way side?
Wrkint
(beating the drum with no sound)
After reading this post I wanted to see how I could write the clave in band in a box.
To my surprise I found that the realdrum ("salsachacha" in the style "chasals") does not respect the shots correctly. The two clave bars are edited to shot all the chords. But it was impossible to sound properly. Some idea?
Here is the demo:
http://soundcloud.com/rafa-toledo
Those wanting the ability to do REAL bar timing, REAL compound Time Signatures, etc. like this without having to resort to "two bars of simple" that may sound the same (or may not be identical at all) and also enjoy PROPER NOTATION prontpout of same, should place their request on the Band in a Box Wishlist Forum where the Development Team will be sure to see it.
Me and others have been requesting that on the Wishlist Forum for years, perhaps if enough people do the same, it will get added to one of those "50 New Features" one day in future.
--Mac
Thanks for responding to this post. I listened to your wav rendition of the
Clave patterns and they were ok. IMO, they sounded a little rigid or not as
fluid as they could be, but that's just me. I would like to see your *midi*
rending done in BIAB, not in Realband. Probably, the process is the same for
both programs, but rendering to wav is not my concern and the styles,
seemingly, may be better in Realband, but....
I understand the 2 measure requirement of BIAB to do a 1 measure (5) beat
pattern. My issue is with the ability to shift beats within 1 measure. I guess
having to do "work-a rounds" when the program is constantly being upgraded with
audio enhancements, but none or very few for midi. I think that this is another
instance of the lack of midi support upon which the program was initially
created or built for??? Well, that's the reason I initially brought it for
and have supported over the years by upgrading for a while, that is until of late.
(Atari-Windows 2009.5)
Squeeky wheel making noise,
Wrkint
Mac, you've been a main stay over the years and I value your opinions and help.
It is dully noted that this and other midi related issues have fallen on deaf
ears. I find it interesting to know that the pgmusic techs read possible "Wish
Lists" and not other areas of consumer concerns and interactions??? Hmmm?
Apparently, they aren't paying attention to midi, only if it's about audio
enhancements. As stated by you, myself and a few others, this issue of
PPQ/Resolutions, notation and other midi related short comings are being
abandoned or ignored.
FWIW,
Wrkinit
Quote:
..midi related issues have fallen on deaf ears. I find it interesting to know that the pgmusic techs read possible "Wish Lists" and not other areas of consumer concerns and interactions??? Hmmm?
Apparently, they aren't paying attention to midi..
Seems to me like PG continues to listen to Midi requests:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=342842&an=0&page=0#Post342842
Quote:
this issue of PPQ/Resolutions, notation and other midi related short comings are being abandoned or ignored.
Have you been over in the Wishlist forum to read any of these? You may disagree with PG's position here, but you can't say it has been ignored.
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=344055&an=0&page=0#Post344055
Cita:
I would like to see your *midi*
rending done in BIAB, not in Realband. Probably, the process is the same for
both programs, but rendering to wav is not my concern and the styles,
seemingly, may be better in Realband, but....Wrkint
Hello, I would like to clarify that the demo I did was created entirely in Band in a Box, not Realband. Bass and piano are midi. Drums are Realdrum "SalsaChacha"
Thanks for clearing that up.
Wrkit
For those interested, I imported both clave patterns (3-2 & 2-3) as a midi file, and Low and behold, BIAB translated it as a *1* measure pattern. I can upload the .MGX and midi file (if requested), for those that say it has to be done in 2 measures. Granted, it can be done that way as well, but the main issue was the limitation of 120 ppq or the ability of having higher resolutions to choose from.
As stated by Peter, a rewrite would cause more problems than what it's worth, although, the possibility of future upgrades "might" increase that by having the option of saving a file with a higher ppq. It was also stated that this "might" cause some incompatibility issues with previously saved files using the current resolution limitation.
FWIW,
P41L
Yes, that is known behavior, the MIDI SEQ playback and the Autoaccompaniment playback are apparently two different things along those lines and you can indeed load a MIDI file that was created with proper beats per bar and it will play back as designed.
--Mac