Just curious....
How many of you folks use BIAB/RB in live gigs?
How many who do gig with BIAB/RB, are solo performers and how many are duos/trios etc. who mute tracks for insturments you have in your bands?
Do you feel any great loss of "interaction" with band members when most/all of them are "in the box?" In other words...money aside...is gigging any less "fulfilling" for you?
Do any of you have live drummers and if so, how do THEY feel about not being able to control tempo?
What sort of comments...if any...do you get from audiences??
Any other comments????
THANKS!
Not the situation you are looking for, but I often use a BIAB track to back me up on solo horn. I never use the BIAB soloists (that's my job), so there is nothing to mute. I might do this in, say, a coffee house where there is little chance of anyone else there being able to back me up to play jazz. My wife might be the featured performer and they know I am also a musician, so I do a little playing of my own music.
It is always very well received. Most have no idea it's a computer playing behind me. Of course, I generally only play one or two tunes, so the 'mystery' of what I am doing remains. Nevertheless, if I had to do a solo gig, I am confident it would work fine.
[Rather than take a laptop anymore, I prefer to prerecord the backing track onto my iPod as a .WAV file. Less to set up and less to go wrong.]
Thanks Matt. I've been "abstaining" from the iPod and Iphone. But I AM going to get an i5 when it comes out and may well have to bite the bullet for the iPad too!!
(Are you monitoring this thread Mrs. Claus?)
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Jim
Over the years, I've used a variety of MP3 players, then some better ones like my SONY PCM-M10 that accept .WAV format files. Now I just use the iPhone (and an iPod would be the same, if you had that) for its size and user interface. I do have an iPad3 and love it in the studio, but I don't think I would want to take that to a gig. It's solid enough but still more likely to get broken (or stolen).
Jim, imo the only reason to take a laptop to play Biab live at a gig is you're going to use the Conductor to change the arrangement of the tune on the fly like extending a solo section for example. That's a different question with it's own set of challenges.
Other than that if all you're doing is hitting play and letting the song play out to the end then that's the same as playing a prerecorded song anyway. Why take the chance of your lappy getting damaged by someone knocking it on the floor or you mouse click the wrong thing in the middle of a set and everything goes wonky until you reboot? Just pick up the gadget du jour that plays MP3's with a playlist you like and be done with it. You can't tell the difference between quality MP3's and wav files through a PA system at a live venue. A lot of us can't tell that difference sitting at home in front of our monitors for that matter.
Bob
Quote:
Just curious....
How many of you folks use BIAB/RB in live gigs?
Many including me, don't know the exact number but I would bet many more than the ones here who participte in the forum. I know because I meet lots of them out on the private party gig circuit. Not all BIAB users, some use competitive software. I will also add that when most see my setup with BIAB many appear to be envious.
How many who do gig with BIAB/RB, are solo performers and how many are duos/trios etc. who mute tracks for insturments you have in your bands?
I do a solo act, BIAB my guitar and vocals. I play all guitar solos but do use some rhythm guitar realtracks on occassion. I also have a few old musician friends who join me from time to time, mostly horn players so when they do I use special arrangements I have edited so their instrument is not on the tracks.
Do you feel any great loss of "interaction" with band members when most/all of them are "in the box?" In other words...money aside...is gigging any less "fulfilling" for you?
Of course I miss my old players but that was another time and lots of other places. With that said gigging has never been more fulfilling for me.
Do any of you have live drummers and if so, how do THEY feel about not being able to control tempo?
Live drummers can control tempos? Wow! 
What sort of comments...if any...do you get from audiences??
All positive.
Any other comments????
This just may be the most important comment I have regarding gigging alone even with great backing tracks demand at least these three things:
#1. You have to have a handle on being a showman of sorts or at the very least be able to work your audience. After all it's only you out there. (Great Platter's Tune)
#2. Not nessecarry but I feel you have to be proficient with your instrument of choice.
#3. You have to be able to sing on key 90% of the time at least.
By the way I have been using a laptop set on a music stand since I started the act 6 years ago doing 85-100 gigs per year. Never an accident, never a glitch I could not handle with the stroke of a key
Hope this helps, I am sure others will chime in.
THANKS!
I often take my laptop and use BIAB. Depending on what I'm playing sometimes I mute
different parts (almost always the melody).
I play guitar sometimes just with drums and bass and sometimes use the piano for comping. If someone sits in I add more choruses.
I've even traded fours with the different solists.
I'd like to use the composer but I haven't found it to be reliable at all.
jazzmammal...."Live drummers can control tempos? Wow!"
Hey...I didn't say that they control a CONSTANT tempo...just the tempo that is being played!
I'm not a drummer but I DO know that a trio is 2 musicians and a drummer!!!
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THANKS for your comments. I pretty much agree with your laptop comments. The butt edge of my guitar has uses other than being part of a musical instrument!!!
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As for MP3 vs. wav files...I think you'll get a big argument on that. Scientifically, of course there is a TON more "information" in a wav file...none of which is either missing or compressed.
The differnece between them...played "side by side" on the same stereo equipment jumps out at me and I would say that my hearing is mediocre at best.
OF COURSE...a LOT depends on the type of music being played. If it's a jazz trio or maybe a rock band using a ton of distortion... that's one think but a modern day big band or symphony orchestra would be quite another.
Actually, I think that a piano solo would be readily distinguished.
But on a gig? You're probably spot on. Some gigs you have to play so softly that the "superior" sounds would not be present or you are SO loud that you are moving hair and everyone's half (or 100%) drunk and could care less!!
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Jim
At least the bass player can't run off with the drummer's wife
Or the bandleaders. That was the cause of my very first time playing left hand bass. We were on the road, the bass player got high/drunk/both and was all over the leaders wife who was an average girl, not some supermodel type. The next day there was a note on his big Sunn Colisieum rig to please use his pay to ship it back to California along with a big apology. We never heard from him again and I played key bass for about a week until our agent and the leader found a new bassist and he drove in.
Jim, if you use a high bit rate for MP3's like 196k or similar, it's very hard to tell any difference at all regardless of what you're listening too. And, I'll say definitely if you use the max setting which I think is 312k you can't tell, period. Don't take my word for it, just do it and see for yourself.
Bob
I still like using my laptop with BiaB in live performance simply because, as a jazz improvisor, I love the way BiaB will generate a slightly different performance each time an unfrozen songfile is loaded and played.
After two or three performances, I find the static playback of MIDI files, mp3 and other audio, to be detrimental.
And less fun for the performer.
--Mac
Hi Bob. I have NO doubt that you are correct. I was referring to "run of the mill" MP3s that most people would listen to.
But having said that, SO much depends on the SYSTEM you are listening to. I recently heard a pair of JM Labs Maestro Utopia speakers playing and "audiphile" version CD of the Boston Pops orchestra side by side with a "normal" home Harmon Kardon driving a pair of good quality JBLs.
The difference was ASTOUNDING! You heard things through the Maestros that weren't just BETTER than the JBLs....they weren't PRESENT on the JBLs!!!!
And yes...we can all run out and buy a pair of Maestros for...oh...around $50K!!!!
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But my point is that in comparing formats, there are TWO issues.
A. How much data is present and
B. How much of that data is the playback system capable of presenting.
But again...in the real world, I have no doubt you are correct.
Best,
Jim
going through a PA, there is absolutely no need for high fidelity!
Imagine a bar full of people with a few drunkards amongst them (a regular night) how many will notice a 24bit 96kHz wave file?
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going through a PA, there is absolutely no need for high fidelity!
Imagine a bar full of people with a few drunkards amongst them (a regular night) how many will notice a 24bit 96kHz wave file?
I WOULD!!!! With the paltry gig money available these days, we are often playing almost as much for our own pleasure as anything else!
Of course, a LOT depends on the genre of music and the nature of the audience. But for jazz gigs...some people do actually listen...you know...the ones who shove some dead presidents in the tip jar!
For Rock/Blues gigs at biker bars, we're lucky if they don't shove US in the tip jar!!!
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Jim
I bet you wouldn't under all the noise. In fact I would defy anyone to notice the difference between 16bit/44100Hz & 24bit/96000Hz in a crowded bar. I've been a gigging musician for 20 years (ie I earn my living from it) & I've done enough to know its not possible to know the difference passed through a PA
I've already done rather extensive testing in the live performance environment, including my own observations while playing and listening to others perform as well as quizzing a rather random assortment of my audience, and I came to the conclusion that, in the average live performance environment, and within reason regarding the kbps choice, the use of the compressed audio .wma format as used in Band in a Box works very well indeed for the purpose.
--Mac
Jim, 5 or 6 years ago I had a period of time where I needed to sub for a very sick friend in his duo. I used Biab for the first time with the Conductor. It was ok, I got through those gigs but it was a chore. I've since done a lot of testing at home over the years and I just can't get the Conductor to do what I need. Silvertones John has done a lot of that too and he says Real Band is much better for that so if I had to do it again I would look at RB or just forget it and use MP3's. If I were doing this full time sure I could probably put in the time to make it work but for me, I might only get a call for that once in 4 years maybe. By then everything's changed, I have to refresh myself and then try to set up a song list. It ain't worth it.
Also, at that time to keep it simple all I used per Mac's recommendation btw, was the basic old Roland VSC DXi. That is still free from PG but it doesn't work on 64 bit Windows. At home I hate it but at the gig going through a Peavey head with a pair of JBL mains it sounded great. That typical stage set up is far from being hifi or even sort of hifi. It's 'bar band' fi. Don't worry about it at all.
Trying to get close to real hifi in a live venue has been my holy grail for years and it's frustrating. The new Yamaha DXR powered speakers are sounding very good right now and I may sell my Barbetta and other speakers and get a pair of those. Then after a few months I'll regret it because they're still not good enough and so it goes.
Bob
Quote:
Just curious....
How many of you folks use BIAB/RB in live gigs?
How many who do gig with BIAB/RB, are solo performers and how many are duos/trios etc. who mute tracks for insturments you have in your bands?
Do you feel any great loss of "interaction" with band members when most/all of them are "in the box?" In other words...money aside...is gigging any less "fulfilling" for you?
Do any of you have live drummers and if so, how do THEY feel about not being able to control tempo?
What sort of comments...if any...do you get from audiences??
Any other comments????
THANKS!
I use RB live as a solo. Interaction with other players is WHY I use RB.
BIAB works for me, serving as backing tracks with me playing live guitar melodic and solo lines. Thinking of hunting up an attractive vocalist willing to work me and my arrangements. Kind of like what Norton and his female vocalist have been doing. I enjoy the variety in the playback of BIAB tracks, and so prefer using them with a laptop rather than using static tracks, like Mac said... keeps me in the music. I've played weddings, receptions, cocktail lounges and hotel venues using this setup and audiences are regularly pleased, and curious. Setup can make a difference to keep funky power lines from boosting noise levels, so I have found using a DI device, and power line filters helpful for keeping my sound clean. A mic is always handy for introducing songs, connecting with the audience, and making announcements. Looking forward to doing more as time permits, and the "geezer hours" (not so late) circuit expands.
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an attractive vocalist willing to work me and my arrangements.
Usually the "willing to work you" part comes later after you've managed to rope her in... 
Bob
THANKS to everyone for your varied and INTERESTING comments. My wife is a GREAT jazz/blues singer who has been singing professionally since about age 12.
I'm a blues dog guitar and harp player.
Luckily, we don't have to gig for the money but want to present an AWESOME show...which can happen if I turn down! (-: (Actually, I can hang with the better cats on the harp...after 20 years of maniacle study and practice!
But my wife's first exposure to BIAB gigging was before we met and was therefore BIAB circa 1990-95 so you can imagine why she hasn't been overly excited about trying it out on gigs.
But I'm WORKIN' on it and will ask her to read these posts.
The comments about letting BIAB regenerate its tracks every time rather than freezing or burning CD's is INTERESTING. Maybe a little dangerous but interesting. (Sometimes...not too often... the tracks gulp a little when being newly generated. Maybe a PC issue, not a software issue...but a gulp is a gulp soundwise regardless). (-:
Again....THANKS!!!!!
Jim
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The comments about letting BIAB regenerate its tracks every time rather than freezing or burning CD's is INTERESTING. Maybe a little dangerous but interesting. (Sometimes...not too often... the tracks gulp a little when being newly generated. Maybe a PC issue, not a software issue...but a gulp is a gulp soundwise regardless). (-:
Exactly. This is what I meant when I said working with Biab live was a chore. It can be done seamlessly because Mac and others have posted they do it all the time but man, you've got to be a real expert with the program and pay attention to a lot of moving parts to do it. It's not just be an expert with Biab, it's also being an expert with your laptop. I can't emphasise that enough. We're dealing with computers here and you MUST understand how they work intimately. It's knowing the drivers, latency, MME or ASIO, midi input/output, audio settings, etc. When something burps on a gig under pressure, you have to know what happened, how it happened and how to fix it RIGHT NOW and move on. As a keyboard player I always had my bass/keys split patches ready to go in case of emergency and I'll just play live and worry about the laptop problem at the break.
Now to be fair, part of it was this was 5 years ago and things have improved a lot since then. My new laptop is much stronger than the old one, Biab has a lot more features now but the basic concepts are the same. If you're using the new freeze tracks feature, the Conductor still works so you can rearrange your song on the fly and the song starts in just a couple of seconds because frozen tracks don't have to regenerate but then you're losing that cool "slightly different version" thing Mac and others like so much. And so it goes, everything is yes, but, yes, but.
Remember, if you're just doing songs beginning to end the same way all the time then you don't need Biab at the gig at all. It's just a song playback player at that point. Take a MP3 player that has good playlist functions and plug it in to your PA.
So, this is my convoluted way of answering the question, can Biab be used live? Answer: Yes, but...
Just try these different things out and find the best way that works for you and your lady.
Bob
On the other hand, running BiaB from a laptop on the piano's music rack is a LOT easier to get right than say, flying the F102.
Just sayin'
--Mac
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On the other hand, running BiaB from a laptop on the piano's music rack is a LOT easier to get right than say, flying the F102.
Just sayin'
--Mac
HA! You're dating yourself. The F102 was an interceptor introduced in the late 1950s. (-:
And as my screen name suggests...I'm a pilot and can attest that FLYING the F102 would be easy enough. LANDING it....not so much!
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Jim
I still like using my laptop for live gigs, but I also make higher quality mp3's, through adobe audition 3, and save them on my iPhone. There is a great app called "Backtrax" that allows you to play tunes one at at time and edit the order of your set list. It also has a show lyrics function, but that doesn't seem to work on my 4g phone (I probably need the new iPhone). I'm using a Bose L1 compact PA and the sound is great. I'm thinking of getting another one just for the stereo effect (for me, not the audience). I have two L1 mdl II systems at school that fill a very large auditorium with an amazing stereo sound, even using mp3's.
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HA! You're dating yourself. The F102 was an interceptor introduced in the late 1950s. (-:
And as my screen name suggests...I'm a pilot and can attest that FLYING the F102 would be easy enough. LANDING it....not so much!
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Jim
Hi Jim,
Then you should also know that the '102's not so affectionate nickname was, "The Flying Brick".
Takeoff and certain lowspeed maneuvers could kill ya faster than mere landing attempts, as a matter of fact, the first thirty some pages of the operation manual consisted of a list of to never attempt under any circumstances.
Quite a few died trying to fly the @$#%^ thing...
But once a pilot got past those issues, she was a joy of a bird for her intended purpose, which, indeed was supersonic interception.
I picked that model intentionally because she could be so hard to learn to fly.
Wasn't no F-16 fly-by-wire where the computer keeps a yanker-banker from doin' anything that might result in augerin' in, dontcha know.
Check Six,
--Mac
That was Greek 2 me ok?
Practice makes perfect.
My son replied no one is perfect why try then.
I remember feeling speechless.
When my kids said that, (Don't we all at a certain age?) I told 'em just like my Daddy told me: "Excellence may be unachievable for mortals, however the PURSUIT of Excellence should always be your goal in all things."
--Mac
Or, as my former business partner said who was a major in the Air Force and flew F4's, you lose power in an F4 it takes on the flight characteristics of a set of car keys (pulls them out of his pocket and drops em for effect). You've got maybe 3 seconds to decide if you're gonna pull the curtain and punch out or not and as everybody knows punching out is no picnic either. I was AF intel he was the pilot, lots of stories between us. The 102 was a brick but the F4 was a bigger brick as in put those two big honkin engines on it you can make anything fly.
Bob
While we're talking about live playing with MIDI, what DXi (or hardware?) synths do you use (either for live or in creating the audio files)?
Hey Jim, I just realized, your handle. It is AV8 as in Harriers?
Lindsay, I probably wouldn't use midi tracks any more. The Real Tracks sound too good even if I'm missing the occasional song specific lick here and there. I did a couple of small gigs two months ago and I was told that our regular drummer couldn't make it after I was also told there would be no bass player. I'm ok with playing left hand bass but not without a drummer. I was planning to bring my laptop and use Biab just for bass and drums but the drummer was able to make the gig anyway. I was practicing some of the tunes at home using my Kurzweil PC3 and Biab going through one of my EV 12" powered monitors. It sounded really good using a RT bass and a RD drum track. I would have had a guitarist and sax along with me so it would have been a trio with Biab.
If it was just me and a sax and/or a vocalist I would use Biab as the full band and probably use all RT's. If I did need a few midi tracks to fill in the Forte DXi is plenty good enough for that but I could also use the Kurz for midi. I would depend on what I think sounds best.
Bob