New User - using SW40BND style but the brass "hits" in the "Strings" part of the Mixer sound terrible. BIAB support suggested downloading VST or DXi MIDI sampling files to improve the sounds. I found Garrian but that's almost as expensive as BIAB ($120+) - have any others had success with a less expensive set of files? Thanks Michael

Welcome to the forum from another trumpet player.

Garritan JABB is pretty reasonable when compared to the price of some dedicated horn libraries. I confess I haven't kept up with all the possibilities because writing and recording horn parts is something I do for other artists on their CDs.

Just a comment on the 'strings' part: BIAB has long outgrown the original choices of instrument buttons shown. Styles, both RealStyles of RealTracks and MIDI parts including HQ tracks can be many instruments. Since most songs still have drums and bass etc. these other instruments can often be found on the strings or guitar track, and even piano. Just make a mental note of what's what. [On a hardware mixer, I would use masking tape and a magic marker to make a scribble strip.]

I just refreshed my memory of your other posts about creating big band tracks to put this thread in context. Here's an idea: are you familiar with loops? There are many brass loop packages out there. BIAB has been able to use loops for a few years. You may already know this, but in case you don't, loops can follow both key changes and tempo changes. One of your other comments was that you didn't like the tempos of the Hal Leonard backing tracks, so this addresses that comment. The downside is they play what they want. If you know how to write your own horn arrangements, then you want to follow the advice in that other thread.

You can often pick a "strings" pad and get away with it. Even "woodwind" will work.

But "brass"... Not so much. It'll work for fast stuff like stabs, but for anything that holds for a second or two will often sound synthetic and fake. Reverb can help a lot.

But you'll get better results if you can split the chord and assign it to individual instruments. A single "brass" pad won't do the trick.

Even then, if you listen to the JABB demos, you'll hear an emphasis on individual instruments, and not on groups. The sounds work as a pad, but JABB doesn't really have much in terms of dynamics. I think what you hear in the JABB demos are lots of different colors - switching between different instrument groups - rather than expressive dynamics.

There's a reason that good brass libraries cost money - there are a lot of articulations and expressiveness that needs to be captured. And it won't come free, once you get the library - you need to tweak each line to get things to work.

So the short answer is: I don't think you're going to find a single "patch" that will solve the problem.

Hi Matt - thanks for remembering my challenge. So yep, I bought the MegaPak and have got a good chord sequence for Lullaby in Birdland - that's my model piece to learn on. I've got the whole thing down with tempo, styles, key and getting HiQ Midi, but unfortunately, the brass doesn't have that yet (according to BIAB today).
I must admit that I am not familiar with brass loops - where would I find such? Also, unfortunately, I do not have the ability to write horn arrangements. Can I take the brass accompinament that comes with BIAB and split it into solo instruments?

In BIAB you can save MIDI harmony parts to separate tracks to take into a notation program and hand out as parts to players. RealTracks that have notation are shown with an underline of the green instrument name.

Since you are not familiar with loops, take a look at this one that I know can work in BIAB. Caution, the demo (left) includes solos by real players mixed in with the rhythm and horn parts; wish they hadn't done that because the loops by themselves are quite good. This example is Big Fish loops of Latin Jazz, but there are tons of loops out there.

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/Latin-Jazz-by-Peter-Michael-Escovedo

Doc, if you google/bing free brass vsti you will see a number of free ones. I can not vouch for how they sound but you may find something that you like there.

Also the free FSZ+ Professional is a soundfont vst that you can load free soundfonts (SF2). You may find some good brass SF2s there also. These are old technology and I haven’t used SF2s in years so I can not vouch for them either. But then again you may find something that will fit, especially as has been said before you stay away from the brass ensembles.

Good luck.

Doc,

This has been a problem for a long time. Midi sounds terrible because it's synths and oscillators trying to imitate a horn. That never sounds good.

The better stuff is the sampled libraries. Unfortunately, the free stuff mentioned.... SFZ+ and the sound fonts that are free, are old technology and very often still don't sound much better than the midi patches. I too, used to use SFZ and fonts quite a bit. Many of the free ones didn't work or sound right so I stopped using them many years ago.

Over the years I have purchased a few really good products. Native Instruments Kontakt is a must have synth for general purpose music composition. It is sold by itself and also bundled in a collection of synths called Komplete. NI makes a bunch of packages of sampled sounds, including Session Horns

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/orchestral-cinematic/session-horns/


In addition, a number of third party companies make 100% compatible sample libraries for the Kontakt player. I've picked up a few of these in the $20 each price range. Better than midi....and they sound reasonably good.
I recommend Kontakt as the first step into the better quality synths that will do the job required. Lots of guys doing film & TV stuff use this synth as their go-to synth ... it's that good.
It's not free, and it's not the cheapest out there but it is a workhorse of the industry and for good reason.... it does a great job.

Kontakt is actually on the lower end of the price spectrum with sampling synths. I've seen quite a few really nice sounding sample library synths that are several thousand dollars each. Too rich for me.

Back to the lower end......

I have Sonar X1 and use these as plug ins.....

Currently, Cakewalk has DimLE and GPO for $50 for both.... they also have SFZ+ and Square 1 totally free.

http://www.store.cakewalk.com/b2cus/category.aspx?categoryID=39&cat=39

Spend some time using google and Bing to search for free fonts and samples.... you may find something useable. I used to spend time looking for free stuff and I found a bunch on KVR.

http://www.kvraudio.com/

Most was not really much better than a good midi patch, and a large percentage was worse or didn't work right.

Good luck searching.

Michael, I agree with Herb that Kontakt is the best. That along with SampleModeling instruments will give you the most natural sounding brass sounds. But they each cost considerably more than JABB, as do all good sounding MIDI VSTis or synth hardware.

If you are thinking you can take a BiaB brass MIDI track and use a good sounding brass VSTi that you will get a realistic sounding brass section you will be disappointed. In order to get good sounding MIDI tracks you must know how to use MIDI. Continuous Controller (CCs) and pitch bend are a must to obtain good sounding tracks. Even those old formats, especially if used as stabs, may be acceptable to you if you use CCs and pitch bend. Sorry for the redundancy if you already know this.

The bottom line is more money along with a working knowledge of MIDI will yield the best sounding MIDI tracks.

One thing I like to do is hang out in other music forums as well as here.

The Cakewalk forum is a great place to hang out and learn things, and since I use Sonar, it's a natural. In the cakewalk forum, there is a sub forum called SOFTWARE. I like to drop in there every so often and read the postings. That is where people discuss the latest and the greatest new offerings from various companies....

It was in such a posting that I was able to pick up a FREE copy of one of the East West synths with a limited but excellent sample library. E/W is one of the better sample libraries out there and they are priced above Kontakt. I could not believe EWQL was giving that thing away, but they certainly did because it came from their web site. It didn't last long before they took the offer away. You have to be paying attention and act quickly on some of the deals.

Just this morning I found 2 FREE sample libraries for the Kontakt player... drum loops and heavy guitar all sampled.... I may never use them but then again, I just might.

I have discovered other cool freebies in this same forum. Plug ins for mastering, and samples..... all sorts of things and of course, the "No-Brainer" deals on VSTi's and FX..... super low crazy prices..... all the good inside scoop.

Doc, I'm guessing here so don't be offended if I'm wrong. It sounds like you're not just a noob with Biab, you're also a noob with digital audio recording in general.

Your question comes up all the time with folks who are new to this stuff. "Why can't I get a better sounding (fill in the blank), this midi stuff sounds terrible". Midi by itself is not terrible. Midi is not sound, it's merely computer commands telling a synthesizer what to play. The sound is coming from the synth, not midi itself or Biab itself.

The short answer is money. You have to think of this hobby like any other hobby. How much does it cost to fly model airplanes? How about golfing once a week? Maybe water skiing or cabinet making? Anything people do as a hobby costs thousands in equipment, floor space, transportation, trailers, whatever.

It's the same thing here. Good, pro quality software and home recording equipment costs real money. Here's the full Komplete 9 package from Native Instruments for example. Note the Ultimate package that includes Session Horns is a cool thousand:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.p...CFYt_Qgod9DsAdA

This is merely one package from one company. There's many others. Good sounds cost real money. You can also buy a hardware synth like my Kurzweil PC3. The new K series with on board sampling is selling for about three grand.

You get what you pay for. If you're a casual hobbyist and you get your head out of the clouds you can get pretty decent sounds for say $400 by using the Ketron SD2 hardware sound module or a lower cost software VST. IK Multimedia's Sampletank is a good place to start. The basic player with some sounds is free and is included with Biab 2013. The extra sound libraries are on sale all the time especially around Christmas so you could have a pretty nice setup for a few hundred bucks. Is that going to satisfy you? Depends on your ears and your budget.

After getting this set up you still have to learn how to use it. There's whole books written on that subject. Lots of very good info is right at your fingertips. It's called Google.

Bob

Thanks Matt - these sound really great - good enough for me to go with. I now understand what is meant by horn loops - I'm on my way again. So much to learn! Thanks again