I have been trying to install my 2014 Audiophile version for the last three hours without success. The problem is Norton Internet Security which initially deleted the Setup.exe file. I managed to restore that file and, even though support told me I should not need to turn off Nortons to complete the installation, I did. The program was installed successfully, I think.

However, when Nortons came back on after 15 minutes it deleted the Band-in-a-Box.exe files and the RealBand.exe files. So, I can't start the program. I cannot see a way to restore these files using Nortons although Kent in PG Support has given me a way to do this. But the best he can tell me to restore the files is to contact Nortons. If anyone has ever tried to do this, you will know what a problem that is. All they want to do is sell you something else.

My purpose in posting this bad news is to stop others going down the same track and experiencing the frustration of losing their installation files.

As I said to Kent, it would have been helpful to get an email warning about this problem!

Thankfully, I only use BIAB for practicing and small band arranging. I hate to think what I would have done if today's gig involved using it live, as do many members these days.

This needs some serious action Guys!

Hi Graham,

This is the second thread about Norton's antivirus software creating an issue.

The other thread is here if you want to have a read.

Regards,
Noel

Hi Graham,

Sorry that you had that problem. There was a Norton tech support guy who came on our forum here, and that was impressive.

One thing that would help is if you submitted a report to norton.com/fp which he suggested.

We have done so, but reports from Norton registered users might be a good idea too.

BB didn't do it.

Norton Antivirus did it.

Apparently, along with not being able to assess a real threat from a benign and useful program, they can't Quarantine large suspected files, so they just permanently delete them. (?!?)

On the other hand, Avast! free antivirus works great here, has for years.

And if you want even more than the Avast! free for home use, you can pay them for a full support package.

Remobing Norton completely from a system is another issue. I've dealt with it when called in to consult problems, argh!


--Mac

Mac, I am not interested in hearing that. Nortons is still the most popular antivirus all round the world and your opinion of it really is not helpful.

Okay, this is for Peter, since he was kind enough to get in on this topic.

It took a guy from Symantec in India over two hours to get my program installed and working. The problem is not theirs it is PGMusic. They are supposed to submit the files to Symantec so that this kind of problem does not arise.

Actually, I read that original post on the subject and thought that since it was a week ago, at least someone would have done something about the problem.

It is not reasonable to suggest that a BIAB user contact Norton to solve this problem.

So, the expectation is that all software producers are expected to send copies of all softwares produced and marketed to Norton Antivirus?


Should those producers also have to send copies to all other Antivirus program producers as well?


Should the cost of a software vendor having to send copies of their product to Norton be passed on to ALL customers, which is how business works, just because one Antivirus vendor can't write their software in such fashion that a suspected large file cannot be quarantined and is then automatically DELETED? TWICE?


That does not make much sense, especially due to the fact that Norton Antivirus is the ONLY report of this kind we have on record here to date and there are many BB2014 users out there using any one of a number of other protection solutions available.


But, whatever.


--Mac

Yes, we do from our small but successful software development company, otherwise you run the risk of files being deleted. We do not send them to any other companies because they do not have the market share.

Anyway, you and I have had this exact same conversation before and since the installation program has suffered the same fate previously, although it did not delete the run files, I did not think if would happen again.

If you want to market a program successfully you have to do things like this. Take it from a Marketing Manager. You have to think of your customer!

Plus, I do not think your criticism of the Norton program is going to help PG Music one little bit if they want fast service from them.

Oh, that explains it clearly.

You are in Sales and I am in Engineering.

relax,


--Mac

Hi Graham,

For what it's worth, I used to use Norton exclusively. I was a huge Norton Disk Doctor fan and I went on from there. They had one of the best names going in the business.

Then, some years ago, Norton stopped being friendly with my programs. They created all sorts of mischief on my computer. So I stopped using them. These days, like Mac, I use Avast. It's never created any issues for me.

I don't understand your logic in blaming PG Music. It seems to me that Norton should have had a pop up message that asked whether the program was legitimate. You are both a Norton user and a BIAB user. As a Norton user, the problem arose with a BIAB file. You have every right to contact Norton on this.

These days, I suspect that Norton is heavily geared to the Microsoft suite of programs and thus it doesn't readily accommodate software outside of this.

Good luck with your problem.
Noel

Actually, Graham, I would think PGMusic would have to check in with a whole bunch of other anti-virus vendors before they even get to Norton.



Source: OPSWAT Antivirus Market Analysis: December 2012

As an aside: When I first started writing aftermarket styles for BiaB in the early 1990s, having the same last name as Peter Norton was an advantage.

But now it seems like Symantec is ruining my good name.

So I must declare, Norton Music and Norton Anti-Virus are two separate companies with nothing in common but a last name.

And I agree, Norton AV should have asked if the user wanted the file deleted or not.

If the installation file was not on Norton AV's blacklist, they should report it as suspicious and ask the user if he/she wants to delete it or not.

That would be polite.

Bob "Notes" (Not Symantec) Norton

Actually, I am an engineer (structural). Also 'marketing' is NOT sales. Marketing is about the whole business seen from the point of view of its final result, that is, from the customer's point of view. It is about designing a product (in this case software) so that it is attuned to the user's needs. It is also about pricing, communication, support and distribution to inform, motivate and service the market. That is why the feedback that I was trying to provide is so important!

I'll agree that it is a common misconception that marketing is only sales but I am sure that Kalie would agree with me.

I suppose the popularity of antivirus programs varies depending on whether it is a home computer or one in a business environment, which mine are. It also varies in different parts of the world. Plus it depends on which survey you look at. This is the latest one I have seen for worldwide but I prefer to do my own surveys amongst our own customers because that is true marketing.

Detailed market share statistics:
•Avast - 17.4% worldwide market share
•Microsoft - 13.2% worldwide market share
•ESET - 11.1% worldwide market share
•Symantec - 10.3% worldwide market share

In Australia and S.E.Asia our customer's usage is very high for single PC users (Servers are different) and that is why we submit our products. And that is why I use Norton Antivirus so that I have the same experience as my customers.

However, since I seem to be only the second person with the problem, judging by the forum, I did wonder if it is because I use Audiophile on an external hard drive. What do you think?

Just as a further note. I had a similar problem when I downloaded the two updates. Norton Internet security did not actually delete the files this time but it recommended that I do so. I was able to override and say go ahead anyway.

I was also asked to fill in a survey about my Norton use. They were mainly interested in the support I received but I also go the opportunity to comment on their software and I complained appropriately. I even gave them this topic as a link so that they could see how much damage this was doing to their reputation. I do hope someone at Symantec actually reads the results of their survey.

I think for anyone else using Norton antivirus software, they just have to switch it off when doing any installation or downloading with PG Music programs. But that only solves one part of the problem. The run files are the next problem when you switch it back on. And it does open you to a real virus threat.

Hey Graham,

What kind of coffee do you have over there?

I want summa what yer drinkin'.


--Mac

I agree with Graham that it is PGMusic's responsibility to get their executables on Norton's white list to protect their users from these situations. This is a highly inconvenient experience for an end user, and some less savvy users may mistake it for a real security threat. PGMusic may already be submitting their files to Norton, in which case we may be the early guinea pigs testing it out before Norton has approved the files.

Come on down, Mac, we're really short of trumpet players.

See, that's a problem for this old engineer.

Asked you a question and got a reply that neither directly addresses nor answers the question...




--Mac

Sounds to me like Norton should already have TWO reports and possibly even two examples of the files by now.

And one of those two reports is indeed from PG himself.

Ball's in Norton's court.


--Mac

While I have been a long-time user of Norton Internet Security I am certainly not a fan or advocate. Just too lazy to change brands I guess.

Norton employs this pro-active tool it calls SONAR. It uses heuristics to identify emerging threats based on the behaviour of applications and claims to identify threats quicker than traditional signature-based threat detection techniques. Unfortunately the algorithms it uses are far from perfect and at times it flags genuine programs as "high certainty threats" and deletes them without warning.

I first experienced this behaviour a couple of years ago when downloading a several hundred megabyte upgrade from a highly reputable software developer in the UK. Twice I waited patiently for a slow download only to have Norton delete a perfectly safe file before I had a chance to run it.

It is laughable to suggest that PG Music, or any other software manufacturer, is in any way at fault because they haven't first sought permission from Symantec to release a new product. Imagine the delays if every software developer in the world had to first clear every new release or upgrade through Symantec first.

This year I decided to buy the PlusPAK download version. Norton flagged every file I downloaded as "Unsafe" but fortunately did not delete anything and I was able to tell it that I trusted the file and so there were no further issues.

For those who use Norton the default behaviour of the SONAR detection is to remove what it decides are "high certainty threats"


However, it is possible to change this so that you are prompted first:

Hi Richard, thanks for the post, you are exactly correct: "It is laughable to suggest that PG Music is in any way at fault because they haven't first sought permission from Symantec to release a new product."

I use Norton also. But when I'm installing from a known quality source, I right-click the Norton icon, and disable Auto-Protect until I complete the installation. Otherwise, if Norton doesn't know about the file, it just blindly guesses it is malware and recommends to delete the file. What a joke. Not a very robust approach.

Avast! (and many others) use heuristics also.

Only their routines don't delete softwares you just paid good money to obtain. They may quarantine, but they don't just blanket automatically delete.



--Mac

Thanks for that advice Richard. I have now changed my setting.

What about the "Remove Risks if I am away" setting?

Also, why do you have "Enable Boot Time Protection" switched off?

However, I think you are both wrong about a software developer not doing something about a problem that could affect 10% of their customers. I will admit that you do have to get moving on an issue like that a bit before the release. Like I said before, the company I work with thought it was necessary after experiencing a similar problem. True, our development staff does not like this situation and feel a little bit like some of the opinions expressed here. It's just that customers are more important in the general scheme of wanting to be a successful software development company selling on a worldwide basis.

I'll tell you what. I would like to have a company that had 10% share of the worldwide market for antivirus software, as do Symantec Norton. That is a ginormous customer base and one has to take notice.

Chart jford posted above looks like less than 5% to me.

Hi Graham,
I'm mostly concerned with stopping Norton from interfering with and deleting files that I have consciously chosen to download and/or install. I've never really given any thought to what happens if I'm logged off so I didn't bother to change the "while I'm away" setting.

The "Enable Boot Time Protection" is switched off by default and I figured (right or wrong) that enabling it would only slow down my boot up time.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your comments. How hard would it be for the software to ask the user before blindly deleting genuine software installation files? That's all that is required and should be the default behaviour.

Regards

Well stated.


--Mac

I have Norton on my BIAB laptop, but I haven't installed V2014 yet.
Just so I understand, if I follow Richard's instructions and change the option to "Ask Me", what will happen when Norton does its automatic scans? Will it again "Ask me" or one you have nominated the file as being kosher, will Norton ignore it in the future?
TIA

Keith,
When I downloaded all the 2014 files Norton "File Insight" flagged them all as unsafe. However, I was able to tell it they were trusted and they all installed no problems. The downloaded files have since been scanned by Norton's automatic scans without incident.

You can tell Norton that a file you already have is trusted by right-clicking on the file, selecting Norton -> File Insight and if it says the file is unsafe tell it that it's trusted.
Regards

Richard, you've posted some great tips! I did the same think you suggest above and told Norton File Insight to "trust" my installation files. No problems after that.

I guess it is getting lonely being a Norton user. It was just a few short years ago that Norton dominated the market. Wikipedia still says that Norton has 61% of the US market share as of 2007. Fast forward to 2013 and that is dropping fast (North America share looks like it is still 16% based on quick google search). Many windows computers are still shipped with it as OEM software, but looks like that is not enough.



I think the above misses the point. Of course PGMusic isn't at fault for the behavior of Norton AV, yet it is still a software developer's responsibility to check that their software runs as desired on the end user's computer. This means testing it in a variety of OS and antivirus configurations, e.g., through beta testing. The need for antivirus software is a reality, and software companies do take the additional measures to ensure that their software is compatible. It is great that PGMusic has such a loyal following. (And yes, I am one of those loyal followers). Many posts I see on this forum have members ready to come to PGMusic's defense at the barest hint of a slight. However, as Graham stated above, this is a marketing issue. The harder it is to install a piece of software, the less likely a customer will become a repeat customer.

You mentioned this should have been caught in beta testing.

I'm not taking a position on any Norton software, as I haven't used it in decades. If I did still use it, however, the first thing I would do in beta testing is disable it (and anything else running) before installing the PG Music software. So, I don't know how well beta testing is going to work to alert PG Music to a potential problem.

Thanks Richard, your advice is appreciated.
BTW, I'm just down the road from you, in the 'Gong.

Thanks Keith,
You're not far away at all. I live in the "Shire".
Regards

All the Aussies coming out of the woodwork.

BTW Richard, I do not disagree that the default action for Norton antivirus should be to ask the user and not to automatically delete any files. That's crazy stuff from Symantec. All I was saying is what Elkayem has now said better; about the developer beta testing to ensure that the installation files have no problems with the common software people use.

I do not remember my previous Norton antivirus having the same settings and defaults. I think they must have changed when I upgraded Nortons about six months back. I certainly did not change any defaults and that appears to have been the main problem.

Just be a bit careful Keith, because if you read my original post, you will see that originally I was able to restore the deleted Setup.exe file myself. I then switched off Nortons and did the install. That was fine but when Nortons came back after the 15 minutes, it deleted the Band-in-a-Box.exe and RealBand.exe files, so the whole installation was kyboshed. It took a very good Support guy from Symantec in India two hours to restore the files and get the full installation working. He made some changes to what Nortons sees as problem files but I do not know how he did this or what files. I just know I have a heap more entries in my Program files.

The good news is that 2014 does seem to be working well but I have many questions about changes that have been made.

Thanks Graham,
I'll re-read all of these posts before I install in the New Year.

I can't imagine using Norton again under ANY circumstances.

Norton is probably the worst "virus" you'll ever have.

It's been documented on here by numerous users so many times I'm surprised any forum user would even consider it.

Personally, I can't agree that PG Music is in any way at fault for not sending its files to Symantec.

The AV program should not rely on every software manufacturer in the world sending them a copy of their exe file to put on the white list.

There are dozens of AV companies out there and thousands of app developers, should every software company send their exe files out to dozens of them too? Then Symantec would be bombarded by hundreds per day.

It's up to Symantec to design their Norton AV product to work properly. If the file is questionable, the AV software should be designed to ask the user if he/she meant to download that file and if he/she wants to trust it.

AV products have flagged false positives since day one. This is no secret, and nobody knows that better than Symantec. Therefore to delete a suspected file that might be a false positive without asking the user if he/she wants to delete it or not, is just plain bad programming.

My AV product asks for everything. I set the controls that way. So even if the app is on the blacklist, it gives me the message and asks if I want to treat it or not.

If I were still a Norton AV user, I would write to them and let them know they need to install the feature to let the end user decide if he/she wants to delete the suspected file or not.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Insights and incites by Notes

Hi,

We do try to minimize problems like this. For example, we scanned all of the .exe's with "VirusTotal". The detection ratio for all of the files was 0/47, "all clean" including Symantec. We also digitally signed the .exe's.

If you see any issues with your particular anti-virus software, we would certainly appreciate if you email that info to support.. We might miss it if you just post on the forum.

It is difficult to avoid running into problems with the "reputation-" and "behaviour-based" detection algorithms that have become very popular in recent years, since pretty much any new and "uncommon" file is fair game for detection. And let's face it, distributing an 80GB program on hard drive is not that typical...

I just thought I should let Norton anti virus users know that I had another problem when downloading the latest update 380. Nortons did not delete it this time but it did say it was a bad file and recommended that I do so. Also when I ran the program first time with the update installed, it gave me another warning message.

This is all becoming too difficult and, despite the fact that Nortons has always given my computer excellent protection, I decided to try another anti virus. As a consequence I have uninstalled Nortons and installed Microsoft Security Essentials.

If I get a computer virus, guess who I am going to blame.

After reading this thread, I put the whole BB folder as an exemption in Norton and also disabled Norton whilst I installed BIAB. Once it was installed I then ran a complete scan and since then everything has been fine.
So thanks for the warnings and a bit a forethought means no problems.
Cheers Steve