real tracks - PG Music Forums

PG Music Home

As an experienced instrumentalist I'm only interested in purchasing rhythm section real tracks rather than the soloist real tracks. Is there any way the rhythm section tracks can be purchased without the soloist tracks?

Anyone?

Which rhythm section RealTracks do contain soloist RealTracks?

All of the Jazz real tracks packets contain at least one soloist real track as far as I can see. It would be nice to be able to be able just to purchase the rhythm section real tracks.

What they've listed is what they offer as the package, I guess.

You could put this on the Wishlist forum, though.

But I gotta tell you, holding back for that reason, well, don't do it.

Get started having fun!

Who knows, you might be able to use that Soloist once in a while, if for no other reason than fills or coppin' some licks in practice or the like.

Make Lemonade,

--Mac

Thanks Mac. The soloist tracks seem next to worthless in my opinion. I try to concentrate on the finest artists as models for improvisation and it seems to me that a computer generated solo track pieced together from some studio musician's favorite licks is nowhere near a stellar performance from Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker, Chet Baker et al. My advice to students would be to ignore the soloist tracks and spend their time paying attention to the great Jazz artists who were able to tell a story when they recorded. Wouldn't it make sense for PG Music to make available sets of only rhythm tracks for discerning customers?

Marketing never makes sense.

But overall, I think PGMusic is out in front of most.

There is plenty for students to learn from the RealTracks soloists, though, depending on the level of the student, of course.

And Sonny was, well, Sonny. Chet ditto. Bird? Word.

But that's why we know their names, Right?

Put it on the Wishlist, mah man, this company often responds to that Wishlist. If you leave it here, they might not see it, because they head to the Wishlist when the time to make new things comes.

--Mac

Thanks for your opinion Mac. I will make the suggestion but I could imagine that the company would prefer to unload the soloist tracks seeing as how they (hopefully) paid the musicans to make them. I'm afraid I can't agree that any student would benefit from a study of the soloist real tracks. Concentrating on a lick-based solo ESPECIALLY on one randomly generated by computer is focusing on "Jazz" at its most perverse. At first listening some of the real track solo creations almost seem to make sense but its the kind of sense one hears from badly put together Musak. Students deserve the best models, not hash served up by butchering the meanderings of some studio hack.

That said (admittedly a bit harshly but there you go) I can imagine the real track * rhythm backgrounds * would make a nice tool for my students. I myself practiced many years ago with Music Minus One play-alongs which featured entire performances from some of the great mainstream players (Hank Jones, Osie Johnson, Barry Gilbraith, Milt Hinton etc.). However with the advent of real tracks BIAB has evolved into a very acceptable comping tool which can accommodate different keys, tempos and rhythms. Unfortunately Hank, Osie and company were unable to record every song ever written in every key. If they had, I think its self evident that playing with those recordings would be far superior to practicing with music generated by a machine, no matter how closely that machine approximates human performance.

bonecall
i dunno mate bout the hack comment.
that comment concerns me.
too definitive imho.

my dad was a jazz purist.
my familys got old one sided jazz records from decades back.
scared to play em actually cos many are pristine.
and i know he would have had fun with it all
includeing the soloists.
why not just not use the soloist if your dead set against it.
remember biab is meant for all sorts of users.
ie to reach a wide user base.

Yeah, "hack" was a little strong, how about "local hero"?

The point was that I would rather pay for only the real track tracks I am interested in using. Perhaps PG Music would consider making tracks available for purchase on a one by one basis or in lots of rhythm section only packets.

By the way, whats the difference between jazz real tracks in the 50s sets and those that appear earlier in the catalogue?

If you go to the RealTracks page, you'll see a box on the left side of the screen that says "RealTracks Video Demos by Genre". If you click on the number of the set you are interested in, it will bring up a demo of the RealTracks found in that set. You'll notice that they are broken down by musical genre. So to tell the difference between the jazz sets numbered in the 50s and the earlier ones, I would suggest taking a little time and listening to them.

Quote:

Thanks for your opinion Mac. I will make the suggestion but I could imagine that the company would prefer to unload the soloist tracks seeing as how they (hopefully) paid the musicans to make them.

I've been a happy camper with pgmusic products for over a decade now. In all that time, I've always had simpy GREAT response from PGMusic Sales, Support and Service.

This. Company. IS. Different.

They don't approach marketing with that "unload" philosophy.

And I guarantee they pay the musicians.

PGMusic staff are mostly musicians, BTW. And they boast some damn good ones up there, too. Peter Gannon's brother, Oliver Gannon, who does the Styles dept. at pgmusic, is also Canada's leading Jazz Guitarist. Cat can play. Miles Black is in there, too. Bad cat. Trust me on that, Miles can blow some piano in a whole lot of different styles, perfectly every time. Backbeat is understood at PGMusic. Don't expect that at Cakewalk's Twelvetone Systems, 'k?

Quote:

I'm afraid I can't agree that any student would benefit from a study of the soloist real tracks. Concentrating on a lick-based solo ESPECIALLY on one randomly generated by computer is focusing on "Jazz" at its most perverse. At first listening some of the real track solo creations almost seem to make sense but its the kind of sense one hears from badly put together Musak. Students deserve the best models, not hash served up by butchering the meanderings of some studio hack.

In some cases, I can agree about that. Sometimes, though, I've had BIAB generate something interesting and useful, if not as an entire solo, which has happened from time to time, an interesting approach to a change that I'll say to myself, "lemme grab that" -- and then incorporate into a fuller solo at some time once that particular device is learned and available on my personal pallette.

This is new technology in its infancy. I expect to see and hear improvements as time marches on.

Quote:

That said (admittedly a bit harshly but there you go) I can imagine the real track * rhythm backgrounds * would make a nice tool for my students.

Well, if I wanted to do so, being a rather skilled old Trumpeter, Keyboard and Guitar player, i could take the same position regarding what you call the, "rhythm backgrounds". BB can only get so close to the kind of groove Barney Kessel could lay down. And I could go on forever about the constant need for more Piano Comping in jazz styles that yields the kind of variety that a Live Player can bring to the process. But we also have to deal with the technology *as it exists today* -- which rules out the program being able to *hear us play* and respond to that at the same time as a live player can do. So I take BIAB for what it is and don't focus on what it isn't. My personal private students have learned quite a bit from the lesson mp3s and drills I've worked up using BIAB. Matter of fact, the program pays for itself here in just that instance, although I use it for a lot more, production work of jingles, underscoring, industrial musics, arrangement of parts and layouts, the harmony generator alone and its ability to quickly generate section parts for bigband has saved many and hour (and pencil point!) here over the way I originally had to do arrangements. The BATS for the saxes is now a matter of a button push. Export over to Sibelius and a bit of human intervention, note edit and cleanup and its on to the bone parts. That is like a 90% reduction in time for this old arranger.

Quote:

I myself practiced many years ago with Music Minus One play-alongs which featured entire performances from some of the great mainstream players (Hank Jones, Osie Johnson, Barry Gilbraith, Milt Hinton etc.).

Man, so did I. MMO was good stuff when I needed it. Aebersold is good too, but a lot more "generic" in the sense that you seem to want.

You know, back in the sixties, when I was kid with the MMO albums under one arm and the trumpet case under the other, I recall some musicians who were older than me poo-pooing the use of MMO records and saying much the same as you are saying here about BIAB. Hmm. One in particular was upset because he wanted them to sell 45's with single songs on them so he wouldn't have to purchase other songs he already knew or had no interest in. He also viewed the MMO marketing as a conspiracy against him personally. Maybe it had more to do with the cost of toolup to cut 45's or maybe the company had done a market study and the demographics showed that 45's for the purpose would be the kiss of financial death or maybe it just never came up. So what? I did notice that he wanted to borrow my MMO records so he could record some tracks. For free. THAT really supports other artists, right?

Quote:

However with the advent of real tracks BIAB has evolved into a very acceptable comping tool which can accommodate different keys, tempos and rhythms. Unfortunately Hank, Osie and company were unable to record every song ever written in every key. If they had, I think its self evident that playing with those recordings would be far superior to practicing with music generated by a machine, no matter how closely that machine approximates human performance.

i very soon tired of the same arrangement behind my solo practice every time, as the MMO and Aebersold records do. BIAB generates a slightly different accompaniment every time the song is loaded. Depending on the Style chosen, that alone is a VERY refreshing thang. And it really does help the student of improvisation to have that happen or they get stuck in the same thing pretty quickly and may not even realize that is taking place. The Aebersold Soloist. That kid with a Realbook under the arm, ready for open night, but must have the backing played pretty much like the record. And if the kid puts that Realbook up on a stand, well, this pianist wants ta puke. Go home and learn the song, kid. Internalize it. Play it in all keys around the circle until you can nail that suckah in yo' sleep. Because we cut heads here.

Cherokee in Db is up next. I've always wanted to hear Clifford's famous solo on a 'bone, how bad are ya?

--Mac

Requesting MMO to make 45s available isn't comparable to asking PG Music to enable the purchase of individual tracks as I'm sure you agree. Lets hope that PG Music is "different" enough to make that happen. After all, choice is good isn't it?

Clifford was great. Lennie wanted me to concentrate on him ("Clifford is for you") but I enjoyed Bird more. Different strokes...

We all have a limited time on this earth to live and to practice. I tell my students to choose their models carefully.

Choose the very best.

There was a time when the only improv chops I had on Trumpet was the ability to simply quote Bird solos note-for-note.

Teenager, living at home with (off of?) the parents, man, those were the days.

Not too many had the chops to play Bird on the Trumpet back then. But a funny thing, I began to notice that only the sax players would turn around on the bandstand when I'd pull that stunt.

And all too soon I gave it up because I knew it wasn't truly improvisation, but I must say that, to be sure, putting the needle back and transcribing that stuff, then learning to play it, then jotting it down and analyzing it over the chord structures was and still is the best education on the subject to be had. I still find new things there, things not noticed before.

The old Garard record changer. You could leave the record-arm up and turned away from the playing platter and the thing would repeat the record over and over. Used to do that at low volumes when going to sleep as a kid, internalizing so many great recordings. Dad would come up every night and turn the darned thing off, but I was asleep by then.

My liddle brudder is an expert on The Bird. The two of us together used to KILL in the Pittsburgh, PA area at one time. Ah, where does the time go. We also had hair then.

That cat is ALL BIRD when he wants to be. He can do Bird on the Clarinet, too, something I've always dug. Wish he'd do it more. Not to name drop, but when Marshall played in Lionel Hampton's band, Gates used to tell Marshall to play his clarinet more. So do I. Gates has gone on to the Pearly Gates now, I miss Gates but I bet Marshall misses him more. Gates used to call me, "Cheese". I will never tell you why.

Marshall's Saxophone Website -- Doctor Sax

Liddle Brudder's mugging is right up front on the artwork for last year's Tony Bennett & Count Basie Orchestra CD.

Da MAN! Monty Alexander was in on this project, man. A mother-you-know-what if ever there was one, Monty is now sitting on OP's throne in my personal opinion. Man, TV plugs. The trumpet intonation wad'nt so hot at 9 AM, it seens. Scotty! get on 'em!

Dat boy LOVES him some roast turkey! Always has. He'd be ambarrassed if I told everyone about the time, when we were younger than now, when he sat up all Thanksgiving night in front of the TV with the remainder of a 20 lb bird and a knife. And when we got up the next morning there was a platter with nothin' but the bones on it. So I won't tell ya.

He loves touring.

He's also as emphatic about many things as you seem to be, bonecall. I generally start singing, "Feelings, nothing more than Feeeeeeelings" at him when he's ready to rant. That really gets him goin' dontcha know. hee hee

I'm a family man. I love my wife and the kids are grown now. But I elected to leave the road life and that led to the studio and the mercenary work of the jingles, etc. No regrets. And, of course, I have my Electronics Engineering. Marshall is ALL MUSIC. Don't give him a screwdriver unless its a drink, 'K? I guess the real thing is that I'm technical and he's art. But man can he be technical about his art. Great teacher, he is. Started out with me teachin' liddle brudder. Today, he's always splainin' some change to me instead. In detail. Ad nauseum. And I always learn something. One thing that has always intrigued me about music is the perception factor. There is no single right way to deal with this as there are many paths to the same goal. It is perception that drives music development. That's actually a bonus IMO.

Marshall is also a Macintosh man, of course (grin).

Peace,

--Mac