Beyond your brain, I'd be interested in hearing what your most useful and valued music making tools/resources were/are.

Are they software?
An instructor or class?
Bandmates/friends?
An instrument?
A website?
A music theory chart or diagram?
A book?
The works of an artist you admire?

Put another way, what resources have made the biggest positive impact on your musical journey?

For me I'd say my bass, my bass fretboard diagram, BiaB, Studio One, my digital interface and this forum.

EDIT: Add listening to professionally produced music to my list.

My theory background.

My first teacher who beat theory into my head.

The instrument, to me, is moot. All instruments do the same thing. Play notes. It just takes different skills to do it. Press a key, fret a string, blow air through a brass tube...

Later on, songwriting and production classes on my way to the BA.

I would suspect that your first assertion, the brain, is #1 on everybody's list.

However, you need to be left brain strong to take in and retain the knowledge, and yet right brain strong to be creative. The left brain does logic, linear thinking and math, so you need that to use your software, take knowledge from your books, your fretboard diagram, and most importantly, retain it. The right side is all about imagination, visualization, rhythm and arts in general.

Of course you probably knew all of that, but it's just the best way I could answer.

I had this discussion once with a guy (and old bandmate so it was friendly) during a copy vs original discussion. I told him left brain people copy what others have done. Right brain people write their own. Punctuated by my telling him "Right brain people who write are right. Left brain people who copy are left out."

Deciding which rings your bells is a personal thing, but much of how we think is controlled by brain science.

Really good question.

Eddie, your answer is quite thoughtful and experienced and you can tell that mine is somewhat shallow due to me picking up music late in life.

I agree our brains should be #1 on our lists and that brain science is a vast and interesting subject. In theory, I get the right brain/left brain differences but in my brain it's all just one (musically limited but learning) brain

I can also appreciate how music theory would be high on the list for many.

Great music instructors
Music Theory
My Guild Starfire V guitar (having a great guitar helps)
Band in a box
Presonus Studio One

...Deb

Looks like we have BiaB and S1 in common.

Most useful tools/resources... in a general sense, not related to any specific instrument or type of music. The main ones that come to mind are:

My ears
Hearing something and recognizing what I'm listening to in a musical way (the product of ear training). The most important tool... listening and making sense of what I hear.

Open Ears & Mind
Kind of goes with the above. Listening to different kinds of music and different musicians playing different instruments. For example, I play guitar but I can learn something from Coleman Hawkins or Charlie Parker or Roy Eldridge. I don't play bluegrass and don't care for the sound of a banjo but I can still maybe learn something from Earl Scruggs. Heavy metal ain't my musical cup o tea, but some of the techniques and tools are kind of interesting and might be useful to me in a modified form.... maybe.

Reading Music
Learned to read music when I was 10. If a 10 year old can do it anyone can. Reading music isn't required but being able to opens up a lot of resources.

A Metronome
Few of us are born with the ability to keep a steady, specific tempo. Gotta learn somehow. Using a simple metronome does the trick.

A Keyboard
I play guitar but when I studied music theory I found it much easier to visualize and understand if I used a keyboard or piano. For example, 1-3-5 vs 1-b3-5 vs 1-3-5-b7 are easier for me to see and understand on a keyboard. In fact, any music theory... scales, chords, intervals, progressions, etc... was easier for me to understand and apply on a keyboard. Also helps a great deal with ear training.

And now for some specific tools/resources related to my instrument (guitar) that have made the most impact...

- A good guitar
Not necessarily expensive, but one that feels good to play (that first one I had played like barbed wire on a telephone pole) and sounds good to me. That also means the right string gauge and setup. Makes a difference. These days a good guitar doesn't have to be expensive.

- An electric and an acoustic
Both. Its all about options. I play them differently... don't know why, just do. The electric gives me a wider sound palette. The acoustic is just me and the guitar; plain and simple... it is what it is. For electric, solid body or semi-hollow or hollow makes a difference. For some things I use a solid body, for others a hollow. Same with acoustic, different materials, different body sizes. There's always a difference from one guitar to another, sometimes slight, but options are good. I discovered that any electric plus any acoustic is the most useful base for me.

- A good modelling amp
Played through a JC-120 for decades. Never thought of anything else until recently I picked up a Boss Katana. Opens a huge sonic palette and that's really useful and interesting. Its pushed me in new directions.

- Band in a Box
I find it to be quite valuable. I use it to set up backing tracks in various styles. These I use to maintain and improve my improvisational skills. Its tough to improvise to silence.

- The Public Library
They have a huge collection of CDs. I can check out and listen to any kind of music for free. They also have a decent collection of printed music. Great resource.

- Every guitar player I've ever heard and quite a few horn players too.
I think I've learned at least a little something from everyone. I can't think of any particular guitar player I admire most, but the most influential for me during my formative years were Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Doc Watson, Bert Jansch, Merle Travis, BB King and Leo Kottke.

- One night in February 1964
The Ed Sullivan TV show. Those four guys from Liverpool looked like they were having so much fun that I thought "I gotta do THAT. Right now right away."

This. It is SO much easier to see intervals when those intervals are next to each other key to key than on frets where you also factor in playing the same notes by changing strings. I have tried to explain half steps and whole steps to a friend who owns 6 guitars but can't play a note and to try to explain how the open 2nd string is the same as the 3rd string on fret 4 (And why I say learn the next in a planar fashion rather than top to bottom. Learn where every A is, then every B. And so on.) is like speaking Swahili to a deaf person. Then I had him put on a guitar and stand behind me while I showed him that moving from one fret to the next is the same as moving from one key to the next key with no regard for white or black. Just "next". But as soon as the talk turned to half steps and whole steps on the guitar and scales he got lost.

I left him with "Learn what WWHWWWH means and you can play a major scale. That's step one."

And this is where I get frustrated with him. He says often that he gets bored because there isn't much to do. And I tell him "THAT is when you pick up your guitar and learn how to play it."

All good points jdew. What jumped out to me is reading music. If I could turn back time I would have spent my paper route money on music lessons and learning to read music. That said, I'm beginning to learn TAB now and find it very useful. Maybe some day I'll learn to read sheet.

Difficult one to answer. Besides brain and inborn talent (and in no particular order).

Education, from school—to private lessons—to music education books—to other musicians willing to share tips and tricks—to self discovery—to experience performing for live audiences to make a living for decades. This includes theory, performance, arranging and learning how to sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, bass, guitar, drums, and keyboard synth.

The physical instruments themselves. When I learned to play more than one, I found that each instrument tells you how it wants to be played. They all have different ways of expressing themselves. In other words, I don't play the instruments, I let the instruments play me.

Even different instruments of the same genre. I don't play the tenor sax like the alto, soprano, or baritone, nor do I play the acoustic guitar like I do the electric.

Software: MIDI sequencer/DAW, Band-in-a-Box, Notation apps. And I must mention the ever-improving hardware that makes these apps work so well.

Learning how to listen to music. I credit my father and my first band director for getting me started with this. My ears are my most important musical instrument.

Listening and playing a variety of genres. Like musical instruments, each genre has its way of expressing itself. I started with Classical and added rock (from Elvis to Metallica), pop, blues, jazz, country, Latin American types, Caribbean types, and many others. It takes listening and practicing being authentic in each genre. But each experience teaches me something new about music, and makes me play the other genres better.

I think one of the most interesting things about music, is that no matter how much you know, there is always something new to learn around the next corner.

I'm sure I missed something else. Later in the day it'll probably just pop into my head

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Yikes, you certainly have a bunch of resources that run a large gamut.
I doubt I have the time to explore all this but maybe that's what it takes to really master the domain.

Here is my shortlist...

I also started to read music around 10 plus I have taken some theory courses. I agree being able to read music opens up a lot of doors. Plus a lot of my friends whom didn't learn to read music quit playing.

I also agree that you must learn to keep a steady tempo.

I didn't have tabs back when I started to play guitar. I learned to play guitar with the only source available at the time, the Mel Bay guitar course. So today tabs without notation is totally useless to me. Most all of the time when I am using tabs with notation I am mostly reading the notation and using a little of the tabs to put me in the right starting position fret wise. I can not play using just tabs. Note that I played the trumpet prior to picking up the guitar so I did have a head start as I could already read the treble clef.

My advice is to start learning to read music today! You already have your fingers working on that bass so all you need to learn is where to put your fingers when you see a note and how long to keep it there. It really isn't that hard.

{edit} This is the course I used when I was teaching bass guitar:

https://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Electric-Bass-Method-Easy/dp/0793563828/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=bass+guitar+books&qid=1686660525&sr=8-4

This is quite a software list. BiaB and Reaper are the only 2 I'm familiar with.
If you don't mind me asking, how do you use Scaler2 in your workflow or study time?

Don't mind at all. thanks for asking. Simply put, Scaler2 impacts, in one way or another, every chord progression I write. Like BIAB it is a boundless source of inspiration for constructing the core of my music. It outputs the chord progession as midi along with accompiament when needed.

However, before I attempt to detail my workflow, you first have to read this past thread...

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=766615&page=1

I have to warn you, it is what I believe to be the second most viewed threads in forum history. Second only to Don Glover's joke thread. But should have background to explain Scalers role.

After you have perused the thread I will be glad to expand on any element.

Sir Scaler

The more you involve yourself, the more you learn.

I haven't figured out how to master music yet. The more I learn, and the better I get, the more I see that I want to learn to make what I do even better. Plus, I have several instruments to learn new skills on.

I have some recommendations for every musician who plays in a modern, pop music of any kind.

1. Learn how to read music
2. Learn basic music theory
3. Learn to play drums, at least the first dozen or so rudiments. That will tell you how to listen to drums, which will help you play all other instruments in a group
4. Learn to play and memorize at least these scales and their arpeggios on your chosen non-drum instrument: major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, major pentatonic and minor pentatonic. If you are not playing a transposing instrument like a guitar, learn them in all 12 keys. Since music is made from segments of these, when playing, your fingers will find these without a lot of brain work from you.
5. Listen to singers in all genres of music. Not the words but the inflections, pitch bends, dynamics and so on. This will teach you how to sing on your instrument.
6. Listen to different genres of music.
7. Listen to each instrument in a great song from start to finish. When you have that down, listen to how the parts each musician plays interacts with each other.
8. Find a good teacher when starting out, who will teach you the right (easy) way to play your instrument. Learning bad habits is a lot easier than breaking bad habits so you can play better.
9. Have fun when playing. OK, practice is not work, but it's repetition and not nearly as much fun as playing the song. But once you learn the song, and it's 'under your fingers', turn the language part of your brain off, and just have fun. If you are having fun, the audience will hear that. They don't call it playing music for nothing.

All this makes the beginning of learning slower, but once down, everything from then on will go much, much quicker, and in the long run, you will be farther ahead of yourself if you didn't learn these basics first.

Let me explain about the drums. We moved to a then small town when I was midterm in the 6th grade. In the 7th, I joined the band. All the instruments were already rented, so the new people got a practice pad and a pair of drumsticks. How disappointing, because I wanted to play baritone horn (Euphonium).

Then the tenor sax player's family moved, and the band director asked who would like to play sax. I had already moved up the drum ranks, and was so enthusiastic about any melodic instrument, the band director picked me.

In retrospect, both were the best things that could have happened to me. (1) since drums are the foundation of most pop music forms, it gave me that and (2) saxophone is much more commercial than Baritone Horn. Not too many baritone players get gigs.

I've played sax and drums in band but also learned flute, wind synthesizer, bass, guitar, and keyboard synths plus I learned to sing lead vocals. I've played all of these in bands, too.

With my theory, and music arranging classes, it all primed me to make user styles for Band-in-a-Box. That started as a hobby and with the help of Peter Gannon turned into a business.

If I live to be 200 years old, I figure there will still be new musical adventures to learn around the next corner.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Somewhere when I was studying composition and arrangement I also started to listen critically to music. That, along with furthering my understanding of compositional structures and harmony, is what I would attribute the most important steps towards becoming proficient in composing.
Learning to play a vast amount of music was also immensely impactful as it brought me closer to the work and allowed me to pick up on a lot of tricks.
I suppose neither of those are really tools per se, but it did provide me with the tools needed later in life.

Mario, thanks for your inputs.
I can see that starting at age 10 is a real advantage. Those that are multi-lingual (able to fluently speak multiple languages) quite often learn those languages at an early age. Most of us don't seem to be particularly wired for that later in life.

That said, I'm realizing that Tab is a good jumping-in "language" that hopefully can serve as a stepping stone to sheet music. Plus I have observed bass Tabs are available at the Ultimate Guitar site for many songs.

I like how you did this! Gonna steal your technique...

My Most Useful Music Making Tools (other than actual instruments)

Ha! Dan's a tool! Sweeeet!

Like others; understanding music theory is a tool, so I am starting there
Starting piano lessons at 7
Starting Trumpet at 9
Learning Bass much later (by then I could read well, the challenge was interpreting it to the frets)
Then moving to guitar much later

Every other tool I use benefits from my learning to play those instruments first .. and (for me) in that order

Piano helped visualize how to read to begin with
Then trumpet made me learn to transpose
Bass was kinda easy after I learned the previous ones, but taught me how to use a basic fret board (one note at a time)

Guitar was/is ridiculously hard; I visualize notes on the piano keyboard instinctively, so then have to transpose them to the guitar fret board after 'reading' it in my head first
//For me, learning guitar first would make learning theory a lot harder in the beginning

FWIW I can work with other musicians much better because of learning theory how I did
So I consider that my most useful music tool

OK, I got a big laugh out of that.

Dang, I never thought of it that way!

I meant it as a compliment! You have helped me with MIDI and product recommendations and I really appreciate it!

John, it was taken as a compliment and I thank you for letting me know that I was able to help you in some manner. I am always glad to share any knowledge I may have regarding our shared enjoyment for music making. I am not an expert since I don't have the needed credentials. But I have never been shy about sharing.

Dan

Kind of why we wanted you to come to Herbstock. What's a music festival without a "chemist"?

- ears and mouth
- pen and paper

I read that thread from top to bottom and would never pretend to understand everything there but I do notice your exhuberance over Scaler2. I also watched a few of the videos and can't get my head around how this would be useful to me at this time.

Towards the end of that thread Mario said this.

Hi Matt,

The main thing it does for me is to give me different chords and chord progressions that I might not of thought of using BiaB. Being able to select chords from a different points of view does help, i.e. scales, modes, artist, genre, etc.

I have tried the melody function and it is on par with BiaB's Melodist. That is it will not give me a complete melody line that I find usable, just like the Melodist. I doubt no program will do that for me.

To be truthful I rarely use Scaler. I bought it when it was on sale and hoped it would do a lot more for me. I have worked with it and watched the videos but I keep going back to BiaB.

It might be beneficial to both of us if you asked the same question to a power user.

If your workflow/experience with this tool is markedly different from what Mario said, please share.

My opinion:

I wouldn't waste my time learning TAB. Tab is limiting to what you can find written in TAB.

Put that effort into learning how to read music. I did that on the guitar with Mel-Bay type beginner books. But I already knew how to read music on saxophone.

The advantage of learning to read regular notation instead of TAB is that just about every song ever published is available as regular notation.

Pick up a fake book with thousands of songs that have the melody line and chords, and you can play them.

Furthermore, when you know how, reading regular notation is actually easier than TAB. The notes on the staff give you timing and pitch, and you don't have to look at the staff AND the TAB diagram, so sight-reading becomes much easier on regular music.

Being a multi-instrumentalist, I do admit that reading music on the guitar is more difficult than reading music on the Saxophone, Flute, or Piano.

But the guitar has some other things that are easier. If you need to change the key on the woodwind, brass, or keyboard instrument, the new key involves entirely different fingerings. Where the guitarist needs to learn how to play one major scale, and can just move it up and down so many frets, the other have to learn 12 different fingerings. The same goes for pentatonic, various minors and even chords/arpeggios.

My advice is to spend 15 minutes to a half hour per day learning how to read regular notation. Get a book that shows you how, and if need be, also check explanations on-line.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Yes.

Scaler, for me, was not meant to replace BIAB. And, I never wanted Scaler to "do more for me". Instead, I wanted BIAB to do less, and Scaler to allow me to do more - for myself. After decades of using BIAB, I reached a point where I was letting BIAB perform too much of the creative process for song writing. I no longer wanted to pick a style, load the demo songs, and have the chords laid out in a canned progression. Scaler helps in the creative process by helping "ME" to write the progression. Nor did I want the entire accompianment to be added to my chords by picking and pluging RTs into the song. I came to the point where I needed to get more of me in my music. That dictated less of BIAB. Scaler was helpful for me in making the needed transition away from BIAB for me in order to grow musically.

I am not trying to sell Scaler (although it might sound like that ). And I also am not trying to bad mouth BIAB. I still use both these tools, for the inspiration they provide.

In recent times, I have been able to bring more of me into the creative process by limiting my BIAB content and employing alternate tools, including Scaler and all the virtual instruments provided by Kontakt along with aids to write my own music. Its a long term process... but I am making progress.

Hope that clarifies my workflow strategy.

Dan, your workflow isn't that much different from mine!

Like I said I use Scaler to help me with chords and chord progressions that I would not have thought of using BiaB alone. I transfer those chords and/or progressions into BiaB.

I also use MIDI loops to augment and/or replace parts of or enter BiaB tracks. I also use arpeggiators, soft synths, etc, and my own creativity to add to or modify BiaB MIDI tracks.

It is a long term learning process, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

I agree. Invest your time in learning to read music. The benefits are worth the effort.

Even just a basic reading skill (I can read it, but I can't read and play at the same time) is worth having and really not all that hard to pick up. It opens so many possibilities that simply don't exist otherwise.

TAB is limiting in that basically its just "this string, this fret". If you don't know what the tune actually sounds like, the TAB is kind of useless.

Years ago (decades ago really) I decided to learn a few fiddle tunes on guitar. All I found (and I admit I didn't look very hard) was TAB. I had no clue what the tunes actually sounded like but they were fiddle tunes so what the heck, learn the TAB. Play the right notes in the right order real fast and that's that, right?

I learned the TAB of some tune played it for a guy who really did play fiddle tunes... on a fiddle no less. I played all the right notes in the right order and everything. He said "What the heck was that?" I told him. He picked up his fiddle and played something that sounded totally completely different and said "That's how that tune goes. Don't know what you played but you played it really well."

So TAB is useless? No. It is really useful doing what it actually does. It shows fingering position. If you want to learn an alternate chord voicing or a particular finger-picking pattern its great. The what string what fret is what you need. Understand though what you are learning....you are learning fingering position... which is technique (gotta have it so that's not all bad).

Could have sworn I had chimed in on this....

Gibson & Fender
Mesa/Spark
Dell
CW/BB/assorted plugs

I kind-of agree with Steve. Dan's got the best tool box available

As far as guitar tab goes, I actually had to Google what guitar tab IS. After that I vaguely remembered seeing it early along my music path but when I started guitar I was in a different place in the journey than most. I took up guitar at 11 but I had already been studying music for 6 years, and played first the accordion and then piano. My teacher beat theory into my head, and until I could tell him that the second space from the bottom was called A and it's this key on the keyboard I was not allowed to touch an instrument. But at that time I was 4 yrs and 10 months old. I could read words up to maybe 5 letters long so I knew that those things called A through G were the first 7 letters of the alphabet, and wow, how convenient that these piano keys were the same as those first 7 letters. Everything for the first few weeks of actually playing was in C, so no black keys. Then came the sharps and flats. He gave me such a strong foundation that I was fortunate to have gone to that guy for lessons. Now here's where it turns toward "but that's just me". That all happened in 1956. My exposure in the home was Slovenian ethnic music (polka and waltz) and big band music, some showtune type stuff. In other words, pre-Beatles. Once I heard The Beatles, the accordion went into the case and I only took it out when I wanted to play to remember how or amuse myself.

Now I said all that to say this. In 1963, when I was 12, I wanted a guitar, because I had recently started hearing this thing called rock and roll. I got a very cheap acoustic guitar for Christmas in 1963, and because I knew so much about the nuts and bolts of music, I figured out from my Mel Bay book #1 how to tune it, which incidentally I did by ear as I had perfect pitch then. (That has waned. I now have relative pitch, so if you play a C, I can then identify other tones by hearing how they relate to C in my head.) By the time I went to sleep that night I was playing chords that fairly recently became that thing called CAGED. I got that guitar at 7pm and by the time I went to bed at midnight I had finished book #1. Just after Jan 1st I started lessons with a guy who was about 10 years older than, so 22-ish, who I found via referral from the old man who taught me initially. He was a student of the old man before me, so he taught the same way. I took lessons from him twice a week. After 12 weeks he said he wanted to meet with my parents so he drove me the 2 blocks from his teaching studio to my house. We sat at the kitchen table and he told my parents that while he would be happy to keep taking their money that he really didn't have anything more he could teach me, that I was at a point where it was now a matter of how much time I wanted to put into it. And how that was due to my coming in with such a strong base in fundamentals and theory. He asked if I would go get my guitar, which I did, and then told me "Play that song you played for me right at the end of your lesson." It was a 3 minute "nothing" thing, with lyrics about a similar "nothing". When I finished he told my folks "He wrote that himself, and for his age it's rather complex."

And again, I said all that to say this. That is just the way I did it. I went right past guitar tab because I didn't need it. I knew that seeing an F on the page meant to press this string on that fret and could work out chord inversions and neck positions by myself. Which leads me to reiterate what I have said several times here. Learn your neck in a "planar" way, at a diagonal across all 6 strings, rather than from nut to body. Pick a note in your mind and find every instance of that note on every string with no regard to octave. Know that F is 1-1, 2-6, 3-10, 4-3 and 4-15, etc. Do that with all 12 notes. You won't learn that from tab.

/soapbox mode on

I HATE HATE HATE that guitar lesson have devolved into a teacher teaching songs and not teaching MUSIC. I also don't get why people think it's a good thing to marvel that so many old school musicians don't know chord formations, key structures, etc. But I think that because I WAS taught all of that, and being the only way I know, to me that is the "right" way to learn. In a convoluted way it brings me the the Eagles lyric "A man can use his back or use his brain." Also a funny poster that used to hang in every Army motor pool of a guy hanging a poster that says "The right tool for the job" and the guy was driving nails with a rock instead of a hammer. Sure you CAN become an outstanding player by stumbling around frets or keys or buttons and levers on wind instruments, but the road map that solid basis in theory provides can eliminate a lot of that stumbling.

//soapbox mode off

A guy on Youtube told the story about when he was recently called to be in the house band at Willie Nelson's 90th birthday party concert. Booker T was there. He went to Booker during a break in rehearsals and asked him "Can you show me the voicing you play on that Bm7b5?" And Booker T, one of the best ever, had no idea what he was asking for. He can play it in his sleep, but he can't show it because he doesn't know what it is. One of the best players ever doesn't consciously know any theory. He KNOWS theory. He just doesn't know he knows.

So, sure it can happen. But who here plays 14 hours a day to do all that experimenting that leads to subliminal knowledge of theory?

Which brings me to the tools. BIAB, with "song demo mode" (which I have never used), allows people who know zero about music to "write" songs. Pick a key, pick a style, use demo mode, save that demo creation, and call it your own. What did YOU write? You didn't enter a chord progression, right? You didn't do any production, like regenerating a section because you didn't like the fit of what was originally generated, right? What did YOU actually do? And when it's instrumental, you didn't even write lyrics, which compounds the felony.

There is no satisfaction in the world like writing a song with lyrics that tell a story of your life and then seeing that song get positive response from the listeners. At Herbstock, as we got started, I did a couple of songs that were remakes done in different grooves from a concept album I started and never finished. Songs like I Wish It Would Rain done in reggae, and 6345789 done in a boogie piano groove. Then I popped in a few I wrote. When we finished the first one, Herb, standing closest to me asked "Is that yours?". I said "Yep. One of my 'girl done dun me wrong' songs." And he said "That's really good." Those 3 words made all the driving and the physical toll that the trip took on me worth it. You won't know that feeling until you write something from your soul and people like it.

Songs are nothing more than stories set to music. Tell your story. Use your tools AS tools, not as creators. In other words, be a musician. The carpenter drives the nails, not the hammer.

EDIT: Here's a +++LINK+++ to the song I mentioned with a local guy, Bobby Lee, singing it.

Eddie, this line brought back a memory that I will never forget.

A few years ago a local music store was advertising for another guitar instructor. I applied and got the job. The only other guitar instructor was teaching songs while I was and still am old school and taught music. I taught reading music and eventually learning theory. If a student was doing well I would throw in some fun stuff like a current song as a teaching exercise. The store owner was impressed and in a couple of months I had a lot more students than the other instructor. It turned out that the owner, although much younger than me, was also "old schooled"!

Thanx for the pleasant flashback.

An overwhelming list for sure and one that can extend beyond anyone's lifetime. I guess that's one point, that the study of music can (should?) be a lifelong endeavor. So it comes down to prioritizing given that we all have limited time. I particularly like 1, 2 7 and 9.

PS> Many thanks to to all who have responded; it's been a good flood. I'm trying to reply to most but I can't keep up due to my current schedule . . . but I'm trying

Thanks AT. I am guessing that I am like many here, Music is our hobby! What may be a bit different in my case is that music is my ONLY hobby. So at this time in my life, I can afford to give it my full and focused priority attention.

Thanks Chicago, (btw one of my favorite bands, love the horns and bass player in that group)

Regarding compositional structure are you talking about how to arrange an intro, V1, V2, bridge, chorus, outro, etc?
Did you use an online resource like this?
https://www.musictheoryacademy.com/understanding-music/musical-structures/

ABSOLUTELY!!! (shouting on purpose).

<minor rant>

I understand that's what many a student wants, and it becomes profitable for the private lesson teacher, but it's just so wrong.

Basic music theory, scales and arpeggios, and all that beginner stuff makes one impatient to play the music he/she wants to play, but it's so important that it should not be skipped.

Remember as a tot how you learned your "ABC's", "What does a G sound like", "What is a verb", "What is a noun" and so on. If you skipped all that, which has become internalized in us, it would be very difficult to read and write.

Oh you could recognize "cat" without knowing what the letters are or how each letter is to be pronounced, but what happens when you see a word you have never seen before?

The basics are the foundation, and yes, it takes more time to get started if you skip them, but it handicaps you so severely that in the long run, if you learn the basics first, you will learn much faster in the end.

And yes, I know you can identify some greats who never learned how to read music, but believe me, they are the exceptions.

Like Eddie, I learned "Every Good Boy Does Fine" in elementary school. They also taught us how to count the note values in 4/4 time. They taught all of us, with no expectation that any of us in the class would become a musician. But back then, the schools gave us a well-rounded education, not just enough to be a productive wage slave to some corporation.

Later they taught us all music appreciation. We identified which instruments were playing which part, and we identified themes and development of those themes.

It wasn't for everybody, but if you teach enough different subjects, each student will find out what turns him/her on. They taught poetry, visual arts, sports, dance, acting, and a few other things that I didn't pursue but I'm glad I learned, along with the science, math, and grammar.

IMO every musician AND every singer should learn music theory. It's our language, and our foundation.

I once worked in a band with a singer who couldn't play a note on a physical instrument, but could talk our language, sing intervals, open a fake book and feed him the first note, and if the song was not too complicated, sight-sing the notes. It was a joy. He was 'one of us' and not only did we learn songs quickly, but he contributed to the arrangements, and everything else.

Don't sell yourself short, learn music theory and how to read music. You don't necessarily need to learn to sightread, although that will come in time, but learn to pick up an unknown piece of music and work through it until you can play it.

</minor rant>

IMO the greatest gift that music has given me is the fact that no matter how much I know, there is always something interesting to discover and learn waiting ahead for me.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

The last band I was in had a 3 piece horn section where 2 of them played so badly out of tune that they brought me in to double (cover up) the horn section parts. The trombone player, gainfully employed in another field, was the ultimate in the music hobbyist category. He knew enough to do charts, and he was able to copy the trombone parts as far as what notes to play, but basically he didn't know HOW to play them. He didn't practice much, and when he did, he didn't know HOW to practice a trombone. You need to play LONG tones to learn how to play in tune, not just play along with CDs.

So in one song there was some space to fill, and I suggested (just to put him on front street) that he get an 8 bar solo. He was SO POOR in any kind of improv that he COULD NOT WRITE AN 8 BAR SOLO! Any viable musician would have been mortified to play the solo he played at the first rehearsal. I ended up writing a solo for him, quite basic, and he couldn't play that.

And that's your copy band player who doesn't know anything about music right there. Completely unable to think on his own, and so poor at technique that the band had to hire me to cover him (and the similarly intonation challenged trumpet player) up. The last 3 gigs we played, his mic was in the monitors only so he thought he was playing but his horrible intonation didn't go through the front of house system. I left that band a couple of years ago, and they finally ended up firing that guy. They only played twice a year since then so I didn't lose anything.

Study.
Learn.
Practice correctly.
DON'T rely on music writing software like PG to replace the learning process. Us "old skool" guys have dedicated our entire life to this craft, and to speak only for myself, I find it offensive that people want to sneak into the circus under the tent rather than buy a ticket.

Remember, if I sing along with a Sinatra record, with Old Blue Eyes in my ears I sound great. Without said "Blue Eyes" singing with me I sound like a foghorn. Practice YOU, not you with a CD.

Years ago, when the Yamaha SY-77 came out, I was in college for the second time to get my computer science degree, so I was just into my 40s, and still playing. To fill my course load I took a bunch of music classes, one of which was composition. Some 19-ish year old brought in a piece of music that he claimed to have written. What he did was record the demo track from his keyboard. When he finished playing a tape of "his" song, and the class applauded, I could not stop myself from busting him. The prof asked "Does anyone in the class have any feedback they would like to offer?" I raised my hand and said "I have one comment to make." I got the go ahead and said "Has anybody here every heard of a keyboard called a SY-77? It's made by Yamaha, and what he just played, and said he wrote, is the demo song from that keyboard. I also own that keyboard and know that demo song well."

The prof called him into his office after class and threatened to throw him out of the class for pulling that stunt. That could have all been avoided if he just tried to write something on his own. JUST to make a point, I took my Ensoniq ESQ-1, a drum machine, and the SY-77 to the next class meeting (along with my sax) and performed 3 songs I actually wrote, not plagiarized. Then that kid was MAD AT ME because he stole music and presented it as his own, and cursed me out in the classroom. He dropped the class that day rather than be ejected.

It's things like that attempt to claim ownership of a factory demo that make me wish PG would take out that song creating demo song thingy out. This is supposed to be a tool for songwriting, not a tool to do the work so the user doesn't have to. We get enough of that from users asking us how to practice. (The answer to that is to just practice and not look for shortcuts.)

Do your own work, folks.

Eddie, you should elaborate on the practice thing. You must practice the right things in the right way. Practice things until you thoroughly get it them move on to something new.

I will respectfully disagree about the demo songs. I like to hear what the styles are capable of sounding like in good equipment and with good players. Maybe just make them so then can not be transferred to the chord track?

How many posts do we get saying things like "How do I recognize the keys that songs are in?" and "How can I get faster on the guitar?" That short answer is "Do the work."

You put in the work. You learn the neck. You play scales faster and faster and faster. Major, minor, pentatonic... I mean why do they think we can somehow virtually do your ear training for you? If you don't know notes on a keyboard, or a fretboard, how can we explain tone matching?



I'd settle for that solution. I literally despise it when people start posting awful stuff made from provided demo songs like maniacs in December trying to get their post count up so they can win a free copy of the new version coming out. They end up no better of a player and no smarter about music when they get awarded free software that does literally everything for them. That just propagates the "pretender" mentality. I also call it the "participation trophy" mentality.

Our age group is probably the last generation before the microwave mentality emerged. Everything is a rush to completion with no regard for self satisfaction that comes from doing it the hard (right?) way. This is a very nitpicky example, but I will say it anyway, despite the fact that reveals another aspect of my Sheldon Cooper side. Wife 3.0 once put something into the microwave and set the timer for 60 seconds. At 52 seconds she opened the door and took out the cup. And I asked her "Why didn't you just set the timer for 52 seconds? Were those 8 seconds you saved critical to your day? What are you going to do with those 8 seconds that will make your life better?" (This is the same kind of snarky line of questioning I use when people crow about their computer taking too long to do something. "Does loading a program in 4.5 seconds really enhance your life from the old days when that program took 6.9 seconds to load?" That comment typically comes from people who don't understand that programs run in RAM, and call their hard drives "memory". As we all know, hard drives are storage, not memory.)

There aren't short cuts to proficiency in any field. Witness the MCSE Boot Camp paper tiger MCSEs. They cost a fortune, they force feed you exactly what will be on the tests, you get your cert, you head out into your job and realize you don't know anything hands on, just the concepts that were enough to get your cert. That is the computer version of recording demo songs, slapping AI lyrics on them, and calling them your own work.

Do the work. Put the time in. There is far more to music than knowing where the start button is.

I agree.

I got a chuckle out of the complaining about the few second time differential. I remember waiting 30 minutes for a tape to load a program onto a computer and sometimes it would fail at the 29 minute mark thus I had to start over. Those were not the good ol' days!

We are definitely on the same page when it comes to practicing and learning theory. Keep fighting my friend.

*whine* But that takes effort! *whine*

Good advice.
Piano and music theory seem to be somewhat of a common theme.
The piano/keyboard gives you a linear and visual representation of available notes and music theory gives you a language to communicate with others and helps with understanding of how music actually works.

This post has evolved into 2 different things, and that's not a bad thing. There is a music LEARNING track and a music MAKING track. I have always been in the school that music is what you learn and songs are what you make with that. Music is knowledge. Songs are made using the knowledge that is music.

Kind of like when people say they are "on" a diet. Well, if you are ON a diet, you can then go OFF a diet. Diet is a daily behavior and a pattern of eating, not a thing that comes and goes.

Every music newbie needs to study these. They are good learning tools and great writing tools. I have been playing since 1956 and I still refer to these from time to time to consider options. Sometimes you may want to put in a strange non-standard chord just to grab the listener's ear. As we all know, nobody will EVER know everything.

Thanks BD,
A minimalist set of tools for sure but a good set as it gets down to the basics.
Muscians centuries ago probably had little else.

Eddie mentioned—Do the work. Thank you.

I've played with a lot of musicians who don't want to do the work, and they sound like it.

Being a musician is fun for many of us, but it certainly isn't easy.

I've dealt with

• Musicians who don't practice their scales/arpeggios/intonation/tone
• Musicians who don't care to learn to read music or learn at least basic music theory
• Musicians who use band rehearsal time to learn their parts, wasting everyone else's time
• Musicians who show up late or take long breaks
• Musicians who think it's OK to drink or do recreational drugs on the gig
• Musicians who spend more attention chasing members of the opposite sex than playing to the audience
• Musicians who think playing a popular song that would work for the audience is beneath them
• Musicians who have a Diva / Divo attitude
• Musicians who pick apart other musicians on stage for the slightest mistake
• Musicians who don't care about playing at the appropriate volume for the particular gig
• Musicians who are not having fun on the gig
• and so on

Mrs. Notes and I were in a few groups together. The last one was a 5-piece. We lost the bass player, and were out of work 2 months, finding a new one and teaching him all our songs.

Later that same year, we lost a drummer. Got a new one, this time we were only out of work one month.

She had a small kit, kept excellent time, provided tasty fills, didn't overplay, and could even play with brushes for the slow jazzy numbers. If that wasn't enough, she could sing backing vocals, too.

We go to our first gig, it was a Dodger Pines Country Club in Vero Beach, FL (The Brooklyn Dodgers used to do spring training there). The audience was huge, and filled over capacity.

The F&B manager pulled back the accordion type room divider and told us we could set up in the bar/lounge. The drummer got excited and said, “God will never forgive me if I play in a bar!” I said, “God will have to forgive me for homicide if you DON'T play in this bar tonight.”

Back to Music Making Tools...

The next day I bought a Teac A-3440 reel-to-reel, 4-channel tape deck. I play drums, bass, at the time rhythm guitar and some keyboards, so I started making my own backing tracks.

I mixed to cassette tapes and bought an AIWA double bay cassette player, with volume sliders for each bay. I had a local repairman calibrate the cassette speed to within 1%.

Then MIDI came around and I bought a sequencer and synth modules and saved the songs to floppy disks. That was much better than carrying scores of cassette tapes (one for each song).

After a synth module failed on stage, I decided to do all the mixing at home, save to 192mp3 and bring two computers to the gig, which is something I still do. I use ThinkPad computers, because they are almost bulletproof. I just retired one I bought in 2002.

Mrs. Notes plays synth and rhythm guitar, and is an excellent singer. On stage, I play sax, wind synth, flute, I learned to play lead guitar, and I'm a decent singer (Mrs. Notes sings all the difficult songs).

Since we went duo in 1985, we were never out of work until COVID reared its ugly head, and now that it's in the rearview mirror, we are back to doing 15-20 gigs per month.

We both have intense work ethics, play what we need to play, adapt to each audience, show up on time, put in 110% for the entertainment purchaser, and have fun doing music and nothing but music to make our living.

Notes ♫

It may not appear as such but we actually agree on getting "more of me" into our music. This is what I like about my instruments; it's my fingers on the keys of my keyboard and my fingers on the strings of my bass.

But I'm still not understanding how Scaler helps accomplish this. Aren't you still moving a mouse on a computer screen?

Don't get me wrong, I can afford the price of this software, it's about every hour spent climbing up the learning curve of yet another piece of software is an hour taken from music theory, honing my bass/keyboard skills and other "traditional" music growth activities.

And it not teaching you music. Just like you learn how to skate by skating, you learn music by playing instruments. Not by playing around with software.

OK, now you guys are teaming up against me forcing me to defend myself. <said with a big smile>

Here is my defense for incorporating all these "music tools / software" into my music in order for me to get more of me in my music. Keep in mind, my goal is to be a better overall "musician" not just a better guitar or piano player.

I continued to take music lessons (hands on the instrument) both theory and performance for both piano and guitar. However, even if I could muster the energy and focus to spend 6 - 10 hours each day on only one of those instruments, there simply are not enough days left in my life to reach a level of professional proficiency. That ship has sailed. I am long past the days of sitting in my bedroom with the guitar on my lap practicing until my fingers bleed. And that doesn't even include any time for playing out, gigging in a bar with other musicians - hell, I haven't even been in a bar for years. So Thumper the next time you spend an entire day running scales and licks to backing tracks, think about all the other aspects of music which you are not studying. What is your goal, in regards to playing the bass? What will you do with this skill that you pay so dearly for with your time and efforts?

And Eddy I already know you position on all this... you have shared it in detail in your postings. Remember, the comments in this post are being consumed by your fellow members of the PG Music Senior Citizen Society. Do you really think you have to school us on how to play music? You really should have stopped with "...Do the work" and then just let us decide what work needs to be done.

That's a great question.

Knowing the goal will help identify tools you can use to get there. Not knowing that, its just a bunch of stuff we use. Maybe useful to you, maybe not.

Hey Dan, I can only speak for myself when I say I'm not ganging up. I'm truly interested in how Scaler helps in making music. Is it via music theory? Helping with finding the right chords? Something else? This is why I asked about your workflow. So no judgement here at all, far from it.

I'm in the process of summarizing (as best I can) the survey results. And as it turns out, you are in good company. The biggest chimney on the chart is software/plugins.

On a more personal note. I'm not studying scales or arpeggios, but maybe I should. I play basically by ear with a knowledge of the chord progression and am the consumate novice. Hence my inquiry regarding tools.

You need no "defense" at all, I'm just curious and want to learn from you and others.

Recall that you have helped me in a major way in the past, so it is I that is the student

Nope. Just how to learn it.

When software does the work for you, you are learning how to use software, not learning music.

The same logic goes to "Self Help" books. If you are reading from a book, it's "Book Help".

Here are the results from this survey as best I could distill them.

Assuming I didn't make any glaring error, I wonder what the main take-aways are from this data.

These results do not surprise me. You asked this question to a group of digital sound and rhythm using musicians. Virtually all of us use BiaB, a digital sound and rhythm generator. Add some chords, pick a style, and presto you have backing tracks complete with rhythms and sounds.

Many of use substitute BiaB sounds with better sounds, thus the Kontakt, Toontrack, etc software.

Ask this question to a group of studio musicians and I'll bet you will get a completely different list.

100% - the number of times certain forum members write out their rules for playing et al is astounding. Note's notes are noted and not digested.

The responses to the original "Your Most Useful Music Making Tools" question represented perhaps four groups of people.

1. People at all skill levels who are involved in generating music by electronic means.
2. Professional musicians who are currently playing paying gigs are they have done so in the past.
3. University graduates with a degree in music or self-educated people with the same
level of understanding.
4. People who are in the beginning processes of trying to figure out if they want to put in the hours
of hard work necessary to become proficient in the skills needed to do any of the above well.

The survey reflected that this site's first group is the most prevalent.

For me personally, I have been studying music theory from day one. The piano was instrumental in understanding chord formation, interval training, and many other theoretical things.

All those so-called tools were only marginally helpful in learning to make music.

I learned to play and make music on stage live with several highly qualified professionals who showed me what to do.

The software is a two-bladed sword. Every hour you spend messing around with software is an hour you do not have a musical instrument in your hand to learn to play better.

What you need to do and the level of skill required as a musician is a function of where and what you will be required to perform to.

You can not play for the Boston Pops if you can not read and are not an educated musician. You can play in a bar with very little skill and knowledge.

How people think about all this is frequently related to age and when they first started to learn to play. It may seem like the Internet has been around forever if you are young.

One of the disturbing facts of life is that it takes about 7000 hours of dedicated study to become truly proficient at playing a musical instrument, flying an airplane, and almost anything challenging.

There are presently two ways to make music. One through software and the other by playing a musical instrument. Neither one is at all easy to master.

Billy

And you would win that bet.


Interesting results.

Good question.
My first goal is to replace Sting as the bassist on his next 2 albums, then to create a 5 piece band that will dwarf the Beatles in worldwide popularity

. . . now that my dry humor is done let me try to really answer this.

I started music late in life, picked up the bass 7 years ago. I'm an amateur in music and always will be. This is a part-time, past-time and hobby but one I find intellectually stimulating, challenging, fun and hopefully an alzheimer-buster. The reason I posed the question regarding useful tools is two-fold. First I'm simply curious as to what others are doing/using so I can then think about how to chart my music journey over the next months and years for the purpose of upping my "musical game". Second, I thought that this info might be of some use to others with similar goals and questions.

Regarding the first reason, here is a song that I recently composed and shared on the forum.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=768050&page=1

My goal is to learn how to improve upon this and write/perform better compositions in the future. It's been pointed out that the lead guitar needs more volume and I agree.

I struggle with melody. What tool/resource can help with creating better melodies? I've tried using the Melody Maker last year in BiaB ver 2022 without much result.

How might I improve this bass line?

What tools out there could help me design a bridge for this song?

How can I improve the various keyboard voices I used?

In short, my goal is to up my game.

As an example of a possible tool to acquire, a few mentioned reading sheet music. I don't doubt that reading is a valuable skill to have and maybe one day I'll acquire it. But how could reading music help improve the above song when there was no music to read? All there is is a chord sheet, that I produced.

As I map my future path, I'm thinking bass lessons would be a good start. In other words, find an instructor that will dribble-in music theory, tab and/or sheet music and several of the other tools shown in the bar chart. And to dribble these in as required to support the larger goal of composing and playing better. Put another way, navigating this by myself will take me only so far.

Another point to make is that some in this forum may be at the end of their music journey and can't compose or play any more. Others may be on a slow decline. And still others may have reached their plateau. Still others may be on their journey upward. Thankfully, (and for the time being) I'm in this later group.

I don't expect whizz-bang answers to any of this, just ideas and perspectives.

PS> Regarding Scaler, I did a little research on it and have concluded it's a tool too advanced for my current skill level.

Thanks for the answer. Makes sense.

What I'm reading that you want to do are (at least in part)
1. improved keyboard voices
2. improved bass line
3. better compositions and better melody

Some pointers...

1. I'm not a keyboard person, so can't help there.

2. As for bass, about all I can say is that bass is a base. Like drums, it provides rhythmic propulsion... it moves things forward and provides a base to build on. Sometimes its kind of melodic, sometimes not... depends on the song or player. Best tool here is ears. Listen to the music but concentrate on the bass and visualize what the player is doing... isolate that in your listening and hear how the bassist integrates into the whole. Hear how it works and try it yourself. Are you moving things along, providing a base? Are you playing rhythmically or melodically and why?

3. As for composition/melody, I'm not a songwriter or composer but I do an awful lot of improvisation and have for a very long time. I've studied it and work on it constantly. Improvisation is a form of melody composition... you know: they are playing the changes, so now you play something new and different... invent a melody right now right away.

Some pointers maybe you can use...

- have a plan... know where you are starting, where you are going and what to do when you get there

- your melody can be chord based or scale based, leads in different directions sometimes

- your melody should have a tonal focal point... a starting and ending spot, a complete circle, a "home base"... kind of like the note everything else is wrapped around or ... its kind of tough to verbally describe, so I'm probably sounding crazy here. Just think "where's home base and how do I leave and how do I get back?"

- you can repeat phrases as long as you have some slight changes to them (otherwise they are boring)

- use a step-wise motion with few giant leaps; leap for effect now and again sure, but don't make a habit of it. Listeners often have trouble following giant leaps, it can be jarring. When you use them, use them in logical places.

- have a tonal motif.. long and short phrases, long and short notes.. it need not be complex to work

- work with the rhythm and changes not against them. In fact, start with the rhythm. If I can't "feel" the rhythm... the beat.., my improvisations frankly stink the place up.

- hum or sing it before you play it. If you can sing it you can play it.

- use repetition and contrast but not too much or because repetition can be predictable and boring and contrast can be confusing to a listener. Its like seasoning the food... gotta know when to use it and how much to use.

- know that the chorus is the song's hook, the most memorable part of any typical song. If you quote anything from any song, quote the chorus. When writing sometimes its best to start with the chorus.

Song structure is typically something like AABA where A is the "verse" and B is the "bridge" or "chorus".
Isolate the A part and the B part in your listening. Notice how the B part is different.. I mean "how" as in melody, harmony, tempo and rhythm wise how it is different structurally. Does it flow easily from the verse or is it more of a contrast? How does the A part get to the B part and how does the B part get back to the A part? (Reading music can help here... you can actually see it written out)

Lyrics tell a story but they also cement a melody in a person's brain. If I say "I read the news today... Oh, boy" or "She'll be comin' round the mountain when she comes" what do you hear in your head? Use a melody that makes the lyrics seem a natural extension of it or lyrics the natural extension of the melody. Again, hum it. Does it go up and down a lot in pitch or does one note seem to flow naturally into another? Which do you like better? Which sounds more natural?

I listened to this tune. I hear a nice Dm progression with a i - iv - v mix. Well suited to play a minor pentatonic scale to construct the melody to play over. However, as we all know this is a limited vocabulary combined with limited chords, which constrains the song from expanding to much other than a blues jam. Your bass is targeting the D which emphaises the Aeolian mode (good start), however, for more non-blues modern feel, try targeting the G to hear that Dorain feel (Dorian will add years to this classic vibe - thats what the text books tell us...). You will also need to expand the progression beyound the i, iv and v chords to create a bridge which will pull you out of the pentatonic scale and permit the melody to bloom and the song to tell a story.

Take this "critical analysis" with a grain of salt. I am a student of the arts myself. What I hear is a very nice piece. But to take it to the next level, I feel, you need to do more than simply play what your current ears hear. Expanding the chords will be a step in the right direction - as I said I did not hear much beyound Dm, Gm, Am (is that right?). But expand them where? how?. That is where the "tools" we have discussed can help. That is the work you have to do.

You are going in the right direction, but the road is long and many of us will never reach the end. Even Moses was not allowed to get to the promised land, but he was given a glimise from the mountain top. Some times that can be enough. So keep at it.

good stuff Jdew. Worth the price of the ticket.

You got it, that's where I is and what my goals are

Upon reflecting on this, for my level of music knowledge I'm probably biting off way more than I can swallow. Per "the book" I should be learning my scales, arpeggios, keyboard fingering, music reading, chord construction and all the other basics. But I've got to have fun to keep my interest, so I jump in head first, make something, see if it sounds relatively good to my ears and fix as I can. I guess I'm realizing that I'm at the point where I need to seek an appropriate book(s) on the subject(s) or take lessons. This and the tools that others use is what I'm now exploring to map a path.

As for your other comments, thanks. I'm sure entire books could be written on each point you made.

You too have good comments but much is beyond my level.
Aeolian? Dorian?

This I can tell you
Verse
Dm Gm
C Fmaj7
Dm Gm
C Dm

Chorus
C Dm
C Dm A

Nothing more than adjusting where the half steps and whole steps are in a scale.

Thus, learn your theory.

Aeolian is just a minor scale. Dorian is a variation of a minor scale.

Any root chord has a relative 6th that is minor and shares the same notes, but the W and H are in different places.

C major and A minor have the same notes. Until you know what major and minor are though, that means nothing.

Start with WWHWWWH. That is the way to remember the steps of a major scale. (But to know that, you have to know half steps and whole steps. See how it spirals quickly?)



You should have been at the rehearsal when an old band was playing Bowie's "Let's Dance". The bass player, non reading, non "music knowing" kept asking "Where does it go to the B?" After 4 times I went ballistic and screamed at him "It NEVER goes to a B. It goes to a B FLAT!!! The key the song is in! There is NEVER a B anywhere in this song. There is no B in the key of B flat! Take a music lesson so you don't sound so stupid."

That didn't go over well.

At all.

But for all the things I am, tactful is not one of them.

This is my simple attempt to analyze the chord progression which the hope of giving you a boost up a level or two. Here are the chords you have availalbe in D minor (aka D Aeolian).

i D min
iio E dim
III F Maj
iv G min
v A min
VI Bb Maj
VII C Maj

Each position in the scale has a role/function in relation to the other chords (...due to that order of half steps and whole steps in a scale which Eddie pointed out)

So your verse is : i, iv, VII, III. Followed by i, iv, VII, i,

The starting iv, VII is a partial cadence generally used to set up resolution. However, you delay that resolution by going to the III. Then finalize with a i, iv, VII, i which is then a full cadence for resolution. Good job with that. I'm guessing your ear told you to go back to i at that point.

Chorus is: VII, i, VII, i, A?
A is not in the D min scale (but if you like it no problem, but a bit hard to determine why it is there). The Amin would fit the scale but the v chord does not resolve the progression and one is left hanging. By the way, generally the Chorus will clearly identify the Key or Tonal Center which in this case is Dm. But you use include the VII (C major) and end on a chord (A) which not in the harmonized scale. This does not clearify if we are in C or Amin or what key? What does you ear tell you about that ending?

At minimum please consider for entertainment purposes only if needed. By the way, this is what Scaler does for your chord progressions. A couple hours "learning" Scaler Software, in return for a lifetime of better music making.

1.- Learning to read music is also learning music theory. The farther you get into reading music the more theory you will learn and that will kick start you off into more theory.

2- You will know what notes are in a chord, what notes you can play within said chord, what chord extensions you can add to said chords, and what notes may sound bad in said chord.

3- You can analyze what other bass and keyboard players are playing. You can analyze what you are playing.

4- You will know what scales can be used with what chords.

5- You can read notation of music that you like or may like to explore. (IMHO this is faster than trying it by ear.) Note this is much like picking new to you genre styles in BiaB.

There are three types of musicians:
1- some can only play by ear. Throw notation in front of them and they are lost.
2- some can only play by notation. That is they must have notation to play and are lost when someone says "lets play C-Am F-G7" or "lets jam a blues in the key of G", etc.
3- Some whom can play both ways. This is the category I am in and I believe many others are in.

The above is my opinion and others may not agree.

OK, we might be honing in on the Scaler workflow (which I'm still interested in even though it seems an advanced tool).

A year or 2 ago in this forum there was an extensive thread on the Circle of Fifths. What came out of that thread for me was I built a spreadsheet to help organize the info discussed, see below and take with a grain of salt; I can't guarantee its accuracy.

A few items:
1. This spreadsheet has been collecting dust and I've never used it to build a chord progression.
2. My method of building progressions is a combo of capturing what's rolling around in my head and hunting and pecking in BiaB. Sometimes I'll refer to a 1500 chord progression manual that Mario sent me.
3. I will never post anything that doesn't "sound good" to me.
4. My and your info both seem to agree that the Amaj chord is not in the Dm key, yet the Amaj sounds good to me and presumably others. Not sure if I understand this.
5. Is it true that Scaler is this spreadsheet on steroids? If so, is that how you build chord progressions?

Essentally, yes. But the Circle of Fifths is only a high level overview of the topic. In fact, I keep a copy on my Wall as a constant reminder. Scaler on the other hand, is a complete research tool that goes well beyond this simple illustration. It encompases a graduate study in regards to music theory associated with Chords and Scales. In my early education I learned that, "scales are chords and chords are scales". In other words, "there is no difference between scales and chords". Scaler intergrates these all this to fully confirm this concept.

But then Scaler does further in terms of creating midi and accompaniment. You may or may not have any use for this secondary feature set. But it does add some fun to hear any of the scales and chords which it can present.



It is common to hear a major/minor substitution in a chord progressions. Only one note changes (the third) which is very often heard in bluesy numbers. So you are not the first to create this sound. My thoughts were that placing this specific substitution at the end of a phrase with no resolution may be a bit odd. But I honestly did not hear this during my listen so I trust it sounded fine as you played it.

Good questions. I hope my rambling is helpful. I suspect it may be best if you and I did a screen share some evening so I can show you a bit of how Scaler works. Otherwise, there are no end to the videos on line. But I may be able to save you some time. Fact is all that you need is in any good Theory book, but what fun is that?

Actually it kinda sorta it, even though it is buried deep in theory and sounds like a pile of crap. There is a strange, wild chord called a Minor Major Seventh which is composed of the Root, Minor Third, Perfect Fifth, and Major Seventh. In the key of Dm, it would be D, F, A, C#. I don't know where you'd use it (I never would other than maybe a passing tone) but some of the jazz guys may have used one. Play a minor 7th and sharp the top note. It is truly cacophonous, but discordant harmony usually is.

...

@Musicstudent

This is my studio clock, Dan.



The stupid part is that it runs on a AA battery, and as the second hand advances, I hear tick-tick-tick-tick....

So if I record vocals I have to take the clock down, remove the battery, do the part, then put it back up. That condenser mic I have up there is REALLY sensitive. I did a track some time back and as I played it back in solo mode I head that damned clock.

Eddie, I had a very similar clock for years. It died. I replaced it with the picture.

Not an issue if you play in time to the clock, Eddie...lol

The truth is, it is more than a little challenging to play accurately at sixty BPM.

Billy

WOW,
there's so much push toward scales, theory and formality that I'd almost mistake this as a Music Teacher chat group.
C.V. time:
I took three bass lessons back in 73, (they were free with my purchase of a bass).
I was shown five guitar chords in 76, (they were all my room mate figured I could cope with and two of them were cheat chords).
I did two years of once a week cello lessons in the early 2000s. This required me to learn to read tenor clef on top of the bass clef I'd absorbed over time, which isn't useful in the wider scope of things.
From 73 until now I've played, written & listened.
I know I don't write songs that please many people but they often please me. At other times they don't please me but I learn from the doing.
I've learnt a few more chords along the way but more usefully have learnt to move chord shapes around to find a sound.
Many of the "exotic" scales are simply retrofitted academic justifications for something having sounded good in context.
Pentatonic is melody made easy, melody made lazy & melody made cliche for very obvious reason - using it can lead one that way. At other times it's a brilliant way to express & work within limitations.
It is useful to hear and accept that something sounds good in context when playing & writing.
Having fun will lead to learning along the way.
The more one looks to formality to guide the way the more one will be inclined to go that way.

I am a big proponent of education and the acquisition of knowledge. That is true whatever the subject matter.

Music theory has many uses and is a valuable asset.

When all this changes is when you step on stage to play live. At that point, school is over, and you need to put what you have learned into practice. Obviously, if you are playing in an orchestra, you have to sight-read the music, so that skill is in use, but there is no time to think about it.

If you are the lead instrument playing a solo based on what the rest of a popular band is playing, there is no time to be thinking about theory, what scale will fit, or what mode you want to use.
As rayc indicated, how you form that solo will be a function of how "formal" or "informal" your training likely was. I can listen to someone play and tell you they went to Berkeley School Of Music.

Creativity is both expected and beneficial for musicians. But... the environment you are playing in will dictate what is acceptable. If you are playing by yourself, it is of little or no importance what you play. Play exactly what you like.

Theoretical understanding is a device by which musicians communicate and are able to play together and stay within a specific genre/style of music.

If we are playing together in a modern jazzy form of the blues, for example, a 13th chord would be expected. If we are playing a typical old-school blues in the style of Muddy Waters, for example, a 13th chord would screw up the whole thing. If you continued to make those types of mistakes, using chords that are inappropriate for the style, because you don't know any better, you likely would not be playing there on the next set.

Education is optional, but there is defiantly cause and effect associated with those decisions.

Billy

You're both not quite correct. A major most certainly is in the key of D minor. It's the V (dominant) chord. Typically that would be a dominant 7th chord, but not always.

The seventh scale degree in a minor key is often raised, creating that leading tone to the tonic which also turns the chord built on the 5th scale degree into a major chord, giving us a stronger V-I cadence.

That's where the Harmonic Minor scale comes from.

The reason why the Major V chord in a minor key sounds right is because you're used to hearing it; 300 plus years' worth of it has been pounded into your ears.

That m/M7 chord ís an entirely different beast altogether. It is what you get if you build a 7th chord on the root of the Harmonic Minor scale.

Also whoever said that the Aeolian Mode is just the minor scale is not quite correct either. The natural minor scale and Aeolian Mode might have all the same notes, but the difference is one of context.

"Key" and "Mode" are not interchangeable.

Music based on functional harmony strongly relies on the V - I cadence and that is true of minor keys as well.

Modal chord progressions seem to be more linear and the chords are not functional like in tonal music. The typical Aeolian cadence is bVI - bVII - I.

That is what practice is for.

When learning a new, challenging song, I analyze it first. Then I try a few things out because I can often analyze it more than one way, or analyze it erroneously. Depends on the song.

I have practiced scales, arpeggios, and other basics until they are under my fingers. If I know the key center of the part of the song I'm in, what I hear in my mind is immediately transferred into my fingers. I don't know how that is done.

In fact, I don't even hear it in my mind first, I hear it as I'm playing it. Like I said, I don't know how that happens.

On the gig, 99% of the playing is done without thinking. No words are thought. It's just a flow. Analyzing is all done in practice sessions. On stage, the object is to get into “the zone” and have fun.

Even though I play pop music for a living, and most of it isn't very challenging theory wise, my theory knowledge makes me a better player than I would have been if I hadn't learned it.

IMO, every musician and even every singer should learn at least basic music theory.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Typical reference to a "minor" scale generally referes to the Natural Minor or Aeolian mode. In which case the V chord is minor not major. But you are of course correct in referencing the harmonic minor scale with a major V chord.

And if your point is to further emphasize the importance of applying music theory in our music making, then you are right on target.

Thanks for playing along.

Dan

I think you maybe misinterpreted the term minor major 7th. Apparently because you saw the word major.

Please read +++THIS+++ and sit at your piano while you do.

A D minor major 7th has to do with one weird chord, not the context of the scale where some of the chords along the path from octave to octave are major chords. A D minor 7 remains a minor 7 even when the 7 is sharped, making it a minor chard with a maj 7th voicing.

I'd refer you to Dr John Venesile, one of music professors, had he not died in 2016 from pancreatic cancer. LOL!

Also check +++THIS+++ Wiki page that defines Aeolian mode as the natural minor scale.

Harlem Nocturne.
Second Bar.
Classic MinorMaj7 example.
Nice Minor7 (b7) arpeggio to set it up in bar 1.
The maj7 pushes hard against it. Beautiful dissonance.

If you play guitar check out Danny Gatton's version.
https://youtu.be/p_2D7p2zYfQ

I think there can be some confusion for some people related to the difference between a dominant seventh and a major seventh. They are both seventh chords but sound very different and resolve differently.

If someone "said" to me, play a Dmin7, I would play the dominant seventh. The seventh note is C. DminM7 is a more or less discordant chord using Db, which is the major seventh. I indicate Db and not C# because the key of D minor is a flat key.

One of the issues with not knowing much about theory is that you may go to a totally unexpected place. Theoricatilly competent musicians have a very good idea of what is coming next and if you deviate very far that becomes confusing.

Of Course, there are no "wrong" notes or chords, but most of us need to be pre-informed to follow you into an unexpected place.

The technical reason for DminM7 sounding discordant is you have this minor second involved.

Billy

As usual, you make a good point.

Notes, as a gigging professional musician and per my awareness, you are in a sparsely populated clan in this forum.
Keep your locomotive running man and thanks for your incites

Sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words.
I can relate to this guy's sense of being overwhelmed.
Nonetheless, this is a fun journey I'm on!

Let's hear your take on this Billy. I have always believed that you could take almost any group of 4 notes and by moving the voicing around you can probably justify it using theory to somehow make a valid chord. There may be a missing third you have to insert but you can probably wrangle most combinations of notes somehow into a chord. Some may not make sense in popular music with the "standard" chord changes we hear 99% of the time, but they are chords.

I always held aside a group I called "Brubeck chords." He used discordant harmony very well. I'm a big fan of 11th, personally. LOL

I will give it a shot, Eddie.

If you play the piano and not depressing two keys down with one finger, with both hands, you get a chord/sound, whatever you want to call it, with ten notes. Your digital piano will not tell the chord's name because it does not exist. On top of that, it does not sound very musical generally.

If you play Dm in the left hand and Bbmaj7 in the right hand, it is still Bbmaj7 which makes it a seven-note chord. Then play Eb7#11 ( the 11th just for you, Eddie...lol) in this voicing, again with seven notes, D, Eb, F,A, Bb, Db,A. Both of these are known chords and could occur in a jazz setting. Play the same thing but leave the F in, and you have a slightly strange Eb79 with eight notes.

So...when playing these highly extended chords, you can leave out notes or add certain notes that may make it an unrecognizable chord, but it may very well infer the extended chord. Classic music theory is not so much about hard and fast rules but definitions of what is being played.

The 13th chords are frequently played as chord fragments but infer the 13th chord. C major without the third is still a C chord, a so-called power chord, but it does not infer the major or minor.

Even with three-note chords, it is a bit hard not to form some sort of chord. For example, play C major in the root position and raise C to Db, and you get Dbminb5. Typically what takes you out from known chord names is highly discordant sounds constructed by using minor seconds.

Piano and guitar are the instruments likely to play some "unknown" chord. Piano players are much more frequently likely to have some training and will understand why what they are doing is logical.

Eddie, you have perhaps a greater liking for discordant sounds than I do based on the post you have made depicting artists using that motif.

Minor seconds are pretty distracting to me.

Billy

Hmmm, interesting and well thought-out advanced analysis Dan, thank you for this.

Am I correct in saying that Fragments of a Dream could be improved by Scaler by
1. "Constructing a melody to play over"?
2. Expanding the "limited vocabulary and chords of the song"?
3. Helping to add a "Dorian feel"?
4. Helping to "expand the progression beyound the i, iv and v chords to create a bridge"?
5. Allowing my creativity to flow into the song rather that it writing it for me?

If this song is say a 3 on a scale of 10 and Scaler could help elevate it to say a 5 or 6, and you don't need a PhD in music theory to use it; then Scaler has my attention.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Scaler or any other software tools (which by the way is currently on sale for $49). Scaler just happens to me a go-to tool for me. Others have pointed out alternate tools which I am sure provide similar assistance. And while, yes, the "thought-out advanced analysis" I provided is drawn from my use of Scaler, I am a student, so the true value of this analysis may be worth what you paid for it - nothing. But I do stand by the conclusion that the knowledge and information provided by Scaler could indeed help move Fragments of a Dream to the next level in regards to all 4 points you made,.

So - Scaler will NOT make your music sound any better. It is not a Effects VST that you plug into and then it all sounds better coming out. It is designed to provide knowledge and inspiration to help you make your music sound better primarily as a composition tool for writting music based on consideration and selection of chord sequences and their associated scales that you select. It does also provide a large selection of templates (ala BIAB) if that is what you need to start the process. And it will produce midi tracks to accompany the chord selections, including a large selection of VI sample sounds, but that is not my primary usage. But this does work well for writing a Melody. Scaler does exactly what is being done here by two talented musicians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA7gdz56LtY. But of course you now see were the need to "read music" gets involved.

This tool is like having a copy of Stefan Koska's classic text, "Tonal Harmony, an introduction ot twentieth-century music", on you desktop. But I open Scaler a lot more frequently than Koska.

I know you construct your chord charts and bassline by ear and you play the chords on keyboard, which is admirable. However, the chords charts <<and melody>> that Scaler may suggest may not be "playable" for you? This is not an issue in my case, since I readily acknowledge my keyboard skills can not handle complex chords but I use the scaler midi to drive any and all VIs. Kontakt knows all the chords and can "read" the music that Scalers writes. ! I mention this only for consideration.

If you are interested I can do a demo walkthrough of Scaler via zoom for you. We can start with your Fragments of a Dream chords. Or I may have connections to get you a timed-demo version to play with. Let me know if either sounds interesting?


Dan

To Dan's point about doing a demo of Scaler, let's do that as soon as possible. I am looking forward to a live master class put on by Dan the Man. I would like to see a question-and-answer session that someone would moderate. Steve if he will do it.

Steve has said he would host the Zoom meeting as he has a paid subscription.

Beyond that, David Cuny has agreed to do a mixing workshop with questions and answers using the same format.

So....WE HAVE EVERYTHING LINED UP; WE JUST NEED TO SET A DATE AN TIME.

bILLY

I'm in for the Scaler Zoom.

Me too, Eddie!

I am even jumping off the deep end and springing for the $49 bucks for the software.

How about 8:00 PM Eastern to 9:00 PM Monday night 6/26/2023? That would make it at 7:00 Central, 6:00 Mountain, and 5:00 West Coast??? This may be a little early for the Nanny state...lol

I will PM or email DAN and Steve also. We can record the session and post it.


DAN AND STEVE are you guys seeing this??? Call me.

Dan, this is all good stuff.
In these last few posts I've already learned from you more about what Scaler is than the videos I've watched on the subject.

I'm in if you want to host this.

Dan has agreed to be "Dan The Man" Scaler expert.

Dan will do a question and answer session on Zoom at 7:00 PM tomorrow evening, Monday, 6/26/2023.

The Zoon session was provided by Steve Slechta and he will monitor everything if he has time. If Not, I also have full control of the software.

Topic: Billy's Zoom Meeting
Time: Jun 26, 2023 07:00 PM Central Time (US and Canada)

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/88466824544?pwd=Mm5Da2dnTFNIRFhsUmN1am1IN0twUT09

Meeting ID: 884 6682 4544
Passcode: 752544

Billy

Ask yourself the question: "Does it sound right for the song?"

That!