PGMusic Demographic - PG Music Forums

Pat,

I do believe that was the most prolific endorsement and explaination of the age gap in BIAB users that I've ever read.

Good job.

Bob

lol..many youngsters ive met are too lazy to learn midi.
actually many ive met would like guitar hero to write a song for em
on friday and be a worldwide hit by monday like britney.
they all wanna be big like britney..lol.
but dont often wanna put in the time n effort to learn an instrument n
go thru the lengthy process of recording a song from scratch.
i'm not saying this is true for all youngsters cos ive met many dedicated ones.
just more than a few ive met want it all too easy.

moi..early 60's.
i'll do a song in any genre for fun..whether its MOR or way out there metal.
only genre i cant get into is screamo emo..lol.
mostly i like songs with a laughs n a bit of comedy in em.
frankly i hate this getting old biz. cos inside beats the heart of someone
who likes to rock out. which i hopefully will be doing still
at age 99 in the old folks home..lol.
long time ptw user. (but i also use other software in conjunction with ptw.)

rharv
mid 40's
wondering what I'm doing hanging around with these old people ..:)

RB
Multitracking and Mastering
MIDI is for automating a show ..

Quote:

My premise is that older customers strongly prefer BIAB/MIDI and younger customers like the Real tracks.

Or it may be that musicians who have a history of using MIDI will strongly prefer the BIABs MIDI styles, while music hobbyists and performing musicians who never got into MIDI will tend to prefer the real tracks. It might be interesting to add a few words about what each person prefers and why

You might be right for the most part of the user base, but I (at 52) embrace the RT/RD features in BIAB. Can't remember the last time I used MIDI in BIAB. Oh wait, yes I can... it was before RT's came out! LOL!

Cheers,
Mike

MarioD
63 and holding---onto anything I can

I like all genres of music but prefer blues and new age
I use BiaB to sketch out a song then bring it into Sonar 5.2PE.
I use mostly midi, a little RT and an occasional loop for my backing tracks.

I see a statistically significant trend forming and I will apparently keep it going -

Another end of the Baby-Boomers here born in 1953. I suspect we all grew up to essentially the same music. As a guitar player I tend toward playing jazz. Latched on very early to the computer explosion and when I found I could combine music and computers in some fashion I was off to the races.

I'm a senior citizen, jazz pianist and have been using BIAB since 1995. I love the Real Bass and Real Drums, which are the only tracks I use for live gigs. Most of my songs are not frozen, as I like the different versions when I press play. I realize that I'm only using a miniscule part of BIAB, but that's all I need. Later, Ray

I also use Real Piano to have a trio to back me up when I play my EWI 4000s.

Quote:

...Let's start with the assumption that the people who frequent this forum comprise a reasonably random sample of PGMusic's customer base. ...

I don't think that is the case at all, though.

--Mac

Don Spooner - age 74. I hang around here to try and learn from you kids.

I use BIAB and RB for practice and for recording gospel songs.

I hack at piano and guitar. My musical taste are stuck in a rut some where between 1920 to 1955.

Robert Taylor 46
Gospel, country.
Lyricist to write, Biab to create the song, wavelab to edit, realband to record and mix, tracks to master.

Listen To My Music
Read My Blog

I am 51
I use it at home as a learning tool to play my guitar.
I like Jazz Solos mostly for now
I am not writing new music but arranging some existing ones (i.e. trying different instruments and adding some Solo parts using the Soloist and some nice Sax or Trumpets)
I use both BIAB and RealBand
Since I bought my ketron SD2, I like the midi tracks better as I can get some pretty real sounds --especially the saxes and trumpets etc., sound unbeliveably good...)
I use Realdrums if I can find one matching the midi version
I use BIAB to learn and play along the Guitar and/or melody parts
I use Real Band to record my guitar part - and although I can do this in BIAB, I prefer to do it in RealBand, because I can record my part on several tracks (one after the other), as I know there will be many mistakes LOL. Then I can cut and paste the good parts to replace the bad parts/mistakes... This way, I can end up with one perfect track, which I use it to make the final cut.
I'll make an mp3 and put it on my iPod or give it to friends so they can compliment/appreciate me more LOL!

Wyndham & Melanie Dennison
my age 63, she's younger and a lot better looking.
My wife and I use BIAB & RT to work on Gospel music and make backing tracks for her to sing to.
We both write and she sings and supposed to read my mind when I hear something I have running around in my head.
We are both potters for over 25 yrs each, trying to eek out a living at this Arts & Craft game also in computers from early Radio Shack TRS80.
Music we like is Rock & Roll to Country to Folk & Gospel.
Usually I check "Other" in most questionnaires.
Wyndham

Pat,

Quote:

Let's start with the assumption that the people who frequent this forum comprise a reasonably random sample of PGMusic's customer base.

I too have to wonder about that. It seems to defy logic, and with educational sales and so forth, there should be some very young users of BIAB, although they may not own a copy. I also doubt highly that this would be an accurate sample of any demographics, other than 'who posts to this forum' and 'who is interested enough to respond to this post.'

Quote:

Then, let's see how homogenous the group is in terms of:
name... age... preferred music style...do you use mostly BIAB/RB/PT ?

Gary Curran
52
Jazz, Big Band, Swing, Latin, Classical (depending on my mood), Rock and Roll (late 50's, early 60's), and some 'Classic Rock.'

I use Band In A Box for MIDI generation, Real Tracks Generation, and suggestions. Although I will use RB and PTPA, and am a strong supporter of those two programs, I prefer to use Sonar.

Now, the one thing that you didn't include in this little survey was the experience level, or playing level, and I find that to be a very important item.

So, for those respondents who read this, I'll ask this question as well.

What level is your playing at, and how do you use these products in support of that playing level?

My answer to that question is: I've had about a year of piano lessons, I can not read bass clef, and I classify my playing as 'Poor.' I say that from a purely technical point of view. I use BIAB to do what I can not, because I do not know how. I am unable to accompany a singer, have a very poor understanding of music theory, can not transpose on the fly, and I do not 'hear' music well. By that, I mean I could not tell you the key a song is in, or *why* a chord progression would or would not work. I hear music as a whole, but can not break it down into it's component parts and the reasoning for those parts.

I do know that Band In A Box has many associated sub-programs that could help me with that, but I have not been motivated to use them.

My instruments are this computer, and my Korg PA800 keyboard.

Gary

I'll be 76 on Feb 22nd, Washington's B-Day (also)....
My instruments: Korg PA-80, Roland G-1000, Ensoniq EPS+, Korg Karma, Korg Triton, 2 Korg M3R's, Yamaha CS6X, Yamaha ES-8, 2 175's, 2 335's, an assortment of solidbody
guitars and basses and effects modules and samplers, including a Roland XP-5080 and an Akai S-5000.
And lots of fishin' poles and a 17' Alum. Osage Canoe to hunt down those Florida fishies!!

I couldn't be the oldest living BIAB user, could I? At any rate, I have to go back into Rehab with Tiger for the same reason...altho all mine have been too ugly to be Adult Film ladies. Happy touring..without Mr. "T"!!

http://www.thegigbaby.com

Quote:

I couldn't be the oldest living BIAB user, could I? I'm open to an endorsement contract!...and, like Tiger, I'll leave it open, if I return to the links this year!

I believe that Botma (Harold) has us both beat.

Don S.

Ok, I expect in return for this information a complete statistical analysis including charts with plotted targets and trendlines indexed with an overall synopsis of data sampled...

Guess you can tell what I do for a living!

Name: Rick Gale
Age: soon to be 45
Genre: if it's got soul... I'm in. Brass/woodwind based classic funk, R&B, jazz, blues, & guitar based rock.
I use BIAB as an accompaniment practice and recording tool to fill in with the musicians/instruments I most enjoyed playing with live back in the day when we had live music. Being I use Cakewalk Sonar Home Edition for my sound integration of pieces written in Finale, BIAB, and live recording. I have not had much need for Real Band. Although I am still very much a newbie using BIAB, it has been an excellent resource for being the springboard for song development and composition.

RickeG

Hi Bob, I have to offer you this thought. If your son is young he may have peers like himself who have the time to get together and play live. Whereas, we family folk, at this stage of our lives may have a free moment here or there. But, it just never seems to coincide with the free time of others in our position. And should the time actually sync up between friends.. the music won't. BIAB makes it feasible for those in our position in life to still keep our chops somewhat sharp and still have fun playing with the sounds of other musicians expecially with the creation of Real Tracks and other VSTi.

Besides I don't know if I agree wholely with your son on the sound. Unless he is in a band with more than the standard rhythm section of bass, drums, piano, and guitar I think he would be hard pressed to find the sound any better coming from their amps! The only thing this idea lacks that can never be intergrated would be the live interaction where you read the other players and improv as it occurs. If you are one used to playing by the chart, then this should make you feel right at home. If you are one given to improv, you are locked with what you start with.

RickeG

Hi Manning, as one who teaches guitar to young students, I especially enjoy the real young ones those under teenage years. For me, that was the time when a family member really sowed his musical life into exposing me to music from concert orchestra to vocal doo-wop to Deep Purple! And because of his passion for all that music it awakened me to that passion and joy.

I don't fault the younger generation for what you see as laziness. They just have not been shown the excitement of playing in a live setting with other musicians. Where I live the school systems have cut music out of their day. The kids go home to Rock Band because it is the only thing they have been fed by the media. And marketers know one thing about teens is if you make it exciting for one you get them all. That is what triggered the massive music movement in the 60's & 70's and as it began to wain off we now have children playing their ipod or Rock Band. And those who do play an instrument are convinced that TAB and letters over words in a text document is considered reading music.

What I have done is include music appreciation in my instruction. These kids are getting turned on to major guitarists from all generations. As I mentioned in one of my posts of a jazz guitarist from the 1920's who, in modern terms, is a complete shredder only without all the processing to boost him. Then, I take them through every possible genre so they can at least get exposed to what is beyond the completely useless radio stations play.

I want to encourage each of us that have an opportunity to get a young person excited about playing a live instrument.

I will so far be the youngest to post here. manning1, you never miss an opportunity to talk about how lazy or ignorant us youngsters are!

Let's just say that things are different.

Im a couple of years younger than Jagger and McCartney 65 but they do say todays 60 year olds are the 40 year olds of 30 years ago.I believe Chuck Berry is nearing 80.If you feel young and can still cut it thats what its all about.Cheers Frankie

I am a 24 year old model trapped in this body trying to get out. LOL Sorry, I couldn't resist. Fabulous fiftysomething which is the new 30 which is the new 13 which is going on 30.... Boomers reign.

All music styles except gangsta rap and polka. Ok even polka if it's got a good beat and you can dance to it.

Using the programs for writing but may go back on stage when my wonderful husband (cradle robber - I was a child bride) retires to be my roadie.

By answering this question (and even being here on the forum) does it mean I have just joined a list of 'also ran' wannabes??

Quote:

I am a 24 year old model trapped in this body trying to get out.

Can I help you, baby? Why, its cold outside...

I said, baby its cold outside!

I am very surprised by this thread. Shocked and surprised. I get shocked by friends ageing and even dieing... Am I really that old? Then again, I turned 50 in September and officially have no family and no kids (that I am aware of

) or...

I do have a military cadet, aged 18, who I kind of adopted unofficially as my 'son'. He really doesn't get on well with his parents but he is a good lad. He's the son I never had...

He plays bass guitar...

I have been looking for a keys player for a long time and they always seem to turn out to be women for some reason. Why do they always seem to be women in my life?

Well, a current gf of mine is getting her keys skills back in order (with a set of keyboards that I have lent her and a piano that my best friend has lent her). Apparently, she has even played accordion in her past? This is the second time around that a gf has presented herself as a potential keys player in a band - let's hope this time she doesn't disappear. So, maybe baby, sometime soon, I'll finally have my chance to get my songs heard...

To be honest, God only knows what I am doing here (on this planet, let alone the forum). Still, see my signature. I have my dreams and I'm working on them. PG Music software is the best tool I have...

Now, let me go and have a self-pity cry in the corner for not having achieved my music dreams YET!!!

Seriously, great software. Its what I needed from the start and I have a university degree in Business Computing Systems, let alone my Master's in Arts Management, so the software met my needs exactly 20 years ago. Still does. Just give me a chance to let loose and I will have them dancing in the streets and singing my songs in their dreams.

I'm primarily a singer/songwriter for rock & roll with a country heart and I'm British (and proud to be so)

HTH

BTW, as the saying goes. 'there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics'. Go figure! Professionally speaking, this survey does NOT constitute a veritable statistical survey - the sample is too small and too biased. Still, that's it from here

To add to the beginning of my post...

Baby its cold outside

Paddy MCgurk, 54 of Irish parentage living in Liverpool UK.

I have no reason to disagree with the fact that biab (great software that it is) is used by us older generation generally.
Look at the facts,
Developed and marketed by a gentleman that fits our age group (sorry Peter) Someone who lived through our musical era and knows what we want musically and puts it into biab.

There is no market drive by pgmusic to try and get a younger user group.

I think this is a fair sample of biab users that have replied here.

Paddy

"There is no market drive by pgmusic to try and get a younger user group."

I respectfully disagree with that one.
Many youngun's can benefit greatly from RB and even BiaB.

The music teachers at our school board have some version of Band in a Box. Problem is they are used to being taught how to use something, and the 3 that play in my brass band admit that there is not good starting level tutorial.

What it would take is for the songs that are part of the curriculum to be put in a folder for the appropriate grades, and a how to quick start guide needs to be included. The major problem is that they then need some kind of amplification system. Too many variables I think.

Again there is an educational niche that's untapped.

Sell a computer solution with band in a box installed, a soundsystem that works for a class room, a basic mixer a mic, and the music needed and bob's yer proverbial uncle.

An aftermarket that might exceed the current user base. And then a licencing thing to allow the students a pared down version, educational in nature, with a video, on a DVD.

Thus not only the schoolboards would be happy, but independant teachers could buy a version with drills etc for teaching specific instruments, trumpet, trombone, baritones, horns (real ones in Eb), the flute etc. Tuba would be a hit.

Given the pace of RealTracks and once the sort out the market for the genres, maybe they can offer a worship package and a new forum and just plunk all the on line hymns into it, no copyright issues, and we cussin, chewin, cuban cigar smokin, beer swillers can feel safe that the sally ann is not handing out leaflets in our favorite watering hole.

Well, you can keep the 'Sally Ann' well away from me!

Man, if I need God or preachin', I don't have to go looking for it! Its right here on the forae!

Quote:

"There is no market drive by pgmusic to try and get a younger user group."

I respectfully disagree with that one.
Many youngun's can benefit greatly from RB and even BiaB.

Hi Bob. I fully agree with your statement. However, getting them to actually use it is the trick. I'm sure many younger generational people actually mess with it. Younger people really prefer to have bands because of the closeness of their souls, doing what they love together.

I suspect there are many closet midi youngsters out there. They like to sit at their computers and see what they can create with this software.

As for me? I got my first BB and PT in 1996. I think it was BB v4 and PT 3.5(came with both a DOS and win version). I didn't know anything about midi. I'd heard it used, mainly, as a buzzword. In other words, I didn't have a clue. Everything I know about midi I learned on this forum. I still don't know all that much about it either. But what I do know I can create some killer songs with it.

In using midi I use synths, such as, Forte and VSCi. I have a great sax synth and a pretty good guitar synth. I also have a really good Les Paul soundfont that I use with SFX. I have a host of DX and VST plugins for different FX.

When Real Instruments came into being I think Peter and crew had a good far sight into the music future with its software. I think this is their answer to using looping instruments, which is pretty good when you consider the possibilities you can come up with. Only time will tell.

I'm hoping that, in the future, programs like the Forte will have real sounding instruments. Specially the guitars and drums. Lots of other too. Hopefully the VSC will be improved to sound like real instruments instead of midi instruments.

When I create a song, chances are, the instruments I use will be some RI's and some midi. I always use midi drums running the DR005 drum synth. They sound real and I can control what they do. With Real Drums I have no control. What I hear is what I get. Of course, I use my own guitars and bass in many of the songs.

Here's my stats:
Name:Russ Stanton
Age: 66 (until May 30)

Instruments: Guitar and Bass (Very little keyboards) and my vocal chords

I've played since I was 17
Genre is older rock 'n roll, country, soul and blues and I like ethnic music as well.

Hope that helps with the demographics.

Pat – generally I’m not photogenic – but here’s my snapshot with a tinge of sepia.
Fav genres – I’m a 61 year old folkie and played guitar before the Beatle invasion, loved the 60’s British invasion, and the following folk rock revolution with it’s electrified instruments and multi-part harmonies. Shifted focus to new country in the early 80s when rock/pop became a wasteland. Discovered that new country best suited the style of the songs I was writing. Loved 70s folk/country and played it in bars with my six, 12 and harmonica plus a good buddy on bass and harmonies. Prior to computers I recorded on TEAC 3340s and a Tascam Portastudio 488.

Discovered BIAB in the mid 90s to create my midi backup tracks for my original tunes but never used it for live venues. However after my divorce I had much more time to be creative. Only one of my six kids decided to get involved in music as a lead guitar player (modeling himself after Edge). He was very much a purist and not a fan of midi. Guess if his band had had a keyboardist there might have been a different outcome. All my kids just wanted me to play my songs with the acoustic.. . forget BIAB. . . forget Midi . . . too fake.

I sketch the song in BIAB 2010 usually with country overtones and now move it to RB and use RTs where I feel they suit. I still like the flexibility of Midi Drums, Bass and organ and mix some combo of those and stringed RTs. I also export the RB Seq to Powertracks for editing tracks. PT is not as much of a memory hog graphically as RB is. I keep the RB track layout and export back to RB to regenerate Midi or RT tracks. I use Audacity for final tweaking and MP3 generation.

As for my familial critics - they seem to be enjoying the RTs more . . . . or else I've just worn them down and keep Midi hidden under the hood. BIAB is a great songwriting tool.

Ian

Quote:

"There is no market drive by pgmusic to try and get a younger user group."

I respectfully disagree with that one.
Many youngun's can benefit greatly from RB and even BiaB.

And as you might expect, I respectfully disagree with Bob here.

There's been several posts that 'youngsters' don't want to learn MIDI- things to that effect.

I'm not saying that younger people wouldn't benefit from PG products, but I don't think they are using them. Some 'youngsters' are doing things with MIDI that most here have never dreamed of.

What they are not doing is using General Midi in many respects. In fact, many of them are using MIDI and synthesis in a way that pre-dates General Midi, in that they are into Tracker sequencers, arepeggiation as a musical device, actually programming synthesizers (albeit mostly soft-synths), etc. For an example of what I am referring to, I'll point you to just one guy I've recently discovered over on the FAWM challenge site. If you click this link, you can hear the work that he has done this month: http://fawm.org/fawmers/erothyme/

I tire of hearing that the younger folks 'just want it easy', etc. While this may be true for some, it is not the rule.

The persons in this forum probably are not an accurate sampling of PG customers, but it is highly likely that PG customers are skewed to an older generation because of the focus of PG products on General MIdi backing, and now the real-band backing.

This isn't to say that there is not a market for these types of products; certainly there is. But the PG focus is not definitely not targeting the mainstream of younger computer-based musicians.

For a contrast; join in at www.kvraudio.com forums and run the same question up the flag pole there. You will see skewness the opposite direction in the demographic; as well as hearing a wholly and fundamentally different focus to the music. Active members on that forum number in the thousands each month.

I used to try to make some noise in this forum about how antiquated the packaging and marketing of PG products seems to be - but I tired of the effort. Young folks today expect professional design in all products they use - from an aesthetic standpoint. One does not see this with PG products packaging/marketing.

Anyway, I think pwhack's assessment is right on the money. Again, not saying younger folks couldn't benefit, but there exists very little evidence PG is trying to reach them.

You mean the new fancy box and external hard drive packaging is 'lacking'. I don't agree at all on that point.

OK so they should go black and silver and blister pack it so I have to call my kids over to open the darn thing. And make it have flashing lights and play a demo song so it goes into your ipod headphones and you hear the genre you push on the package.

My grandson has a thing he sits in that's like that. Plays farmer music when you touch the farm and other neat stuff. Classical and folk tunes.

I really disagree on this point. They haven't put the box with the hard drive in the stores I guess. Is success in marketing to younger people the fact that it's over top of the Yamaha keyboards at WallMart?

Using semantics, you may be right, rockstar. I meant there IS a market there, but you may be correct that PGMusic isn't pursuing it.

I use MIDI in PGMusic products quite a bit, and 90% not GM. The fact that it is set up to be GM compatible doesn't mean it has to be used that way. It just makes for an easier set up initially to get going. It's no more restrictive than a thousand dollar synth that happens to have a GM bank in it. Not sure why you assume we are all using only GM setups. I've read that from you quite a few times.
With the patchlist feature I am able to call up thousands of sounds right from inside the tracks window.. makes it kinda nice.

Without the GM structure, the whole BiaB system would be much less powerful, maybe your comments are aimed more at the BiaB users. Sure seem to be a lot of people enjoying it, and writing great songs with it.
RB does most of what the other DAWs do, and a few very unique things too. Still my preferred DAW at this point.
I'd rather have the realtracks than the VSTi tempo if it has to be a tradeoff. Sure would be nice to have both though.

Bob, will you please STOP changing your Avatar! It is unnerving, to say the least. I don't know you in person but I know you here on the forum. To change your Avatar is to change your whole persona.

Or would you like me to turn blue? Bluish? Grow pointed ears? NOI

Yes. I am one of the Knights who say 'NOI'

Ha ha! Did it! I turned blue! So, see what I mean, Bob? Disconcerting, isn't it?

What will Trax turn into next??

Tom Smith
Age: 49
Pretty much anything, although my own stuff comes down to comedy folk-rock and ballads
BIAB a whole lot, RB almost not at all, lots of extra work with Acid Pro and some with Reaper

Sam, I haven't changed my avatar in years,

and the knights say 'ni'

http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=117&qid=1450

Liar!

Ni ni ni ni ni!!!!

Note to self: Can I get myself back here again or have I been taken over by an Avatar??

rockstar.
allow me to explain. re youngsters.
interestingly enough i was defending the young uns this week..
cos we were all youngsters once.
but over the past few years ive heard the same common points made by
people in the work force grappling with manageing young uns in their first job.
viz..at school none is allowed to fail.
and the generation in general terms at school has always been used
to constant positive reinforcement.
then they get their first job and its often a culture shock sadly for many.
because they dont often get the constant positive reinforcement they
are used to all the time at school/home.
which many seem to need.
often the complaint i hear also is they want to join an
employer one week and expect to be in senior mgt within a short time thereafter.
i'm just relaying what ive been told many times.
in summary they are used to getting things fast and when the
reality of real life with all its problems occurs, many get
rapidly frustrated.
so dont get me wrong..i'm just relaying what ive been told many times.
mebe its unrealistic expectations that are built up at the school level.
re expectations for quick success.
fair comment ??

I am being repressed!

We are the knights who say nicht...we are the keepers of the sacred words, nicht, pang, and neuwong!

If I only had two points to make to you it would be an umm-lout.

Yer giving me di·er·e·sis

For that-
You must bring me a shrubbery

Okay Sam, that was funny.

Bob

rharv,

I hadn't seen that clip in years. Thanks for the good laugh.

Bob

Quote:

You mean the new fancy box and external hard drive packaging is 'lacking'. I don't agree at all on that point.

OK so they should go black and silver and blister pack it so I have to call my kids over to open the darn thing. And make it have flashing lights and play a demo song so it goes into your ipod headphones and you hear the genre you push on the package.

My grandson has a thing he sits in that's like that. Plays farmer music when you touch the farm and other neat stuff. Classical and folk tunes.

I really disagree on this point. They haven't put the box with the hard drive in the stores I guess. Is success in marketing to younger people the fact that it's over top of the Yamaha keyboards at WallMart?

John,

This reply to my post - if it is not one of your tongue-in-cheek replies is clear evidence that you really don't have any idea what I am talking about. The demographic I'm talking about does not buy very much at Wal-Mart.

I'm talking the graphic design of both the advertisement as well as the website and GUI in the program. You are on about the black/silver - that much I think you picked up.

Do you read any of the industry magazines on home recording? If so, take a look at other DAW advertisements and contrast them with PG adverts. Same price paid for the advertisement itself. But one looks like it was done with Microsoft Word 'Word Art', and the others look like professionals put them together.

@Bob,

The point about GM is all over the forums (how many times do people have to ask about Forte DXi, or VSC, or SD, or the other GM flavor of the day and why my drums aren't showing up on channel 10?) You don't see any questions here asking about how to program the synths in Reaktor (well, Ryszard has dabbled, but most are doing very typical drums/guitars/piano/organ/horns backing), how to automate filters or what's the best way to get stutter effects on synth pads, etc. Here the questions seem very focused on how to get standard songs to sound good for one-man-bands and the like. WAY more topics here like that than other forums.

I mean really, just go to any of the other forums related to particular DAWs and you just won't find questions about GM. I agree that setting the program up for GM doesn't limit (well, it does in that it takes up unnecessary real-estate on the mixer applet - like for the chorus/reverb midi knobs) but unless you've played with other programs and haunted other forums, it may not be so apparent as to the general lack of targeting a younger market.

-Scott

It's been a very long time since I heard a full-on synth only tune here at PG, where everything is midi, and none of it is GM.

Yeah, this demographic survey will tell ya you are not going to hear a lot of full-on synth stuff.

Some of us know how to program synths and call up other patches and use many other features of MIDI, and I think most regulars here do know MIDI pretty well.. We don't ask questions because we pretty much got a handle on it. Most of the questions in a forum such as this are from noobies, as it should be. I do hang out in other forums where guys do a lot more synth stuff. Can't say I enjoy it more though, the full-on synth stuff got old a while ago for me. I like using them where I think they'll fit, but other instruments still suit my style much better.

It may be that PGMusic is focused exactly on their niche market. Since BiaB is their flagship product. I don't use it much myself, however I do think BiaB could be a great aid for those starting out, which is what I believe it was meant to be from the beginning (hence the name). They keep it easy to set up and get going and let people do a lot with what they offer. And it can teach you a lot.

I was just saying, it's how you use the tools that matter, and for me RB can hang pretty well with a lot of them for what I do. Including MIDI. I don't think you really appreciate what stuff like Realtracks and the ACW can do. If a user puts as much time into Realtracks as they would with loops, the realtracks can be quite impressive. Depends what you are after I guess. All the DAWs have their plus/minuses.

Scott,

Quote:

Do you read any of the industry magazines on home recording? If so, take a look at other DAW advertisements and contrast them with PG adverts. Same price paid for the advertisement itself. But one looks like it was done with Microsoft Word 'Word Art', and the others look like professionals put them together.

I have to agree with you 100%. To say the web design and graphics of PG is "dated" is being kind. It will definitely not appeal to younger people.

For me, BIAB has always been nothing more than a practice tool so I can play or sing along and "keep my chops up". I will let BIAB take at least one solo so I can run through the chord progression. I play, (or played), a lot of instrumentals so it is good for that. It's also great if you have friends or family over and they ask you to play and you are the only musician there. Then they can have that "full band" sound.

I've never gotten into the full functions of BIAB because it was and is still just a practice tool. Don't take me wrong, I love it and recommend it to anyone who plays because of what it can do. But it will not appeal to a younger group.

Hiring professional web design people and having better tutorials would definitely help.

And for bluegrass players, getting at least ONE decent style that understands the genre would help a lot. For the umpteenth time, the melodies are 8th swing notes, not 16th. Even the styles that are listed as 8th swing are actually 16th's. Sucks really hard.

And believe it or not, there are a lot of young people playing bluegrass or newgrass. Not to mention us old folks.

Bob

John, That's funny you mention the niche of BIAB in schools. As a private instructor, I have been exposing my progressive knowledge on using BIAB to my guitar & piano students. I use it as a technique for them to think outside of the box (pardon the pun) of their own instrumental world; especially guitarists. I know, from being one, I have a tendency to forget that there are other people playing too and would also like to solo as well! Hmm, what to do while they are soloing? The extra nice feature of this product over something like JAMMER is that it offers the notation of the songs as they are created.

Speaking of tutorials, the best thing I found for teaching the students (and future BIAB customers) is to take a familiar chord pattern and change different styles to it. This way, you have the same chords and then allow for the style to create its own mods and capture what changes took place in the chart.

I gotta think of something new for a couple of my students. They already have done recording sessions, writing their own 2 part guitar harmony songs and recording them. So, I am ecstatic for what BIAB brings to the music education front. I have not dove into the practice Jazz tunes for them yet. I am still trying to learn them. Hence, my naive jazz posts!

Sorry for another shameless plug for BIAB.

Thanks RickeG

Wow interesting post, that is up till Bob And Sam starting needing a playdate.

52 years young, been playing since i was 15. You think i would learn something one day, sheeesh!

Love Old time rock, country and folk. Use BiaB for song beds, RB and Multitrackstudios to finish and master.

Quote:

It's been a very long time since I heard a full-on synth only tune here at PG, where everything is midi, and none of it is GM.

-Scott

"Dance of the Techno Gods"

Click on my avatar upper right to go to my profile page and see more music.

Signed,

"The Dabbler"

P.S.: Fifty-seven years old. I use BIAB as a sequencer and co-composer. Look for more full-on electronica.

Retired university professor, age 67. Been with BIAB since its earliest days. Don't tinker with the program except to gig live. Never used Real Band, since BIAB does it for me. Played in bands since the 1960's. Working solo now 5 nights a week in a private club. Play everything from the early 1900's through the '70's. I use BIAB, along with guitar some nights, and other nights on Yamaha arranger keyboard. By the way, this forum has really been helpful over the years.

Steve Graham
Age 60
I write songs (words and music) with my guitar then use Real Band to create arrangements by entering the chords and selecting Real Instruments, etc. and then record the vocals on top of the whole deal in Real Band.

Real Band is the perfect tool for what I do.

28 years going on 14 according to some folks here at any rate..lol.

I'm maybe atypical of the younger generation inasmuch as I'm into mostly acoustic 'jazz' based music; not the 'nu-jazz' or electronica that's supposed to appeal to my age group. So that qualifies me as a 'young fogey' perhaps!

I use the term jazz with caution; I like to improvise in a jazz influenced way but not necessarily over standard jazz forms and structures. I'd call it 'free' jazz except that's misleading. It more jazz influenced by various folk and modern classical elements with a lot of odd time signatures or else non-metric 'pulses'.

That creates problems for me when I try to use BIAB styles and chords for arranging and composing original material as there's so few styles that are usable straight out of the box for me. BIAB's idea of jazz tends to be dominated by mainstream traditional genres or else commercial smooth jazz so i find as much interest in adapting funk and rock patterns for my own use as anything strictly jazz.

i usually have to make lot of adaptations to existing styles by importing custom patterns, using lots of shots and holds, hybrids with other styles, altering the chord voicings, breaking up the bar structure and using lots of fills to create 'broken-time' feels ...its hard work.

Lets face it.. a bunch of style disks covering the evolution of post-Ornette Coleman 'free' jazz from 1960- right through to today's mixed- genre 'creative/experimental' jazz scene isn't going to happen ...as much as i'd love it to.

All I can hope is that a future BIAB will some day give me more options for customising the programs functins so that making my adaptations is less arduous than it is just now.

Regards

Alan

Alan,
you sound like my 30-something year old son. There seems to be a new interest in jazz among his crowd, but not traditional jazz as you say. Most of what he likes is odd time signature stuff. He would like to use BIAB for its in-depth focus on music theory, but as soon as he tries to choose a time signature that isn't 4/4, and the program croaks, he gives up.

Pat

I can only sympathise with your son's plight re- the time signatures. Clearly BIAB is designed so that odd time signatures can be covererd as 'styles' , cramming each cycle into a bar of 4 beats.

Changing it now to a 'supported as standard' feature may be okay on paper, but how many of the other existing styles would sound good in 7/8 or 11/8 I wonder?. What you might find is that they just don't work.

Jammer has support as standard but their styles dont sound like they were designed for use in anything other than 4/4 or 3/4.

At least we would be able to import odd time signature midi pattens into the style wizard however, and that would be good to have.

Regards

Alan

Wow... what a bunch of old farts on this forum....

and keeping with that trend, I am coming up on 56. :-)

I haven't really found my niche with these products. My hope was to create simple backing tracks with lyrics so the wife and I could enjoy some vino, sing some tunes and play guitar. Maybe the occasional "live" performance when friends are over or at parties.

Playing drums from the time I was 10 makes it tough to accept some of the styles and I don't seem to have the free time to put into it to learn how to change them. I am an analog guy getting stuck in a digital world and kicking and screaming doesn't seem to be helping.

Looks like I will be using RB to lay down basic drum parts (via electronic drum set) and then lay down some basic acoustic guitar, possibly some bass. I can use the midi for keyboards and such. Then playback the piece with live guitar and vocals for fun.

I think that RB and BIAB have great potential for those willing to invest time to learn them. I don't think that too many people want to make that effort. For me, it's just a lack of time. But in today's culture, it seems that everyone wants instant success, with no effort, aka Guitar Hero.

Love the forum. Great tips (for us newbs, as was previously mentioned), and ideas to put into use. Looking forward to learning more.

Ric

46 here.
primary music style - contemporary Christian
I use BB and RB as a tool for helping me create the chord structures for my original melodies and for creating backing tracks for the instruments I do not play (which is everything except voice and keyboard).

Beagle,
I like original CC music... can you direct me to any of your songs online? I'd like to hear what you're doing

Hi Pat, I only have a few online so far.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=704510&content=music

some of those are covers, of course, but my originals are My Savior, Reforge Me, Someday Together, Your Grace, I Can't Breathe, Samarian Sunrise, All I Need is You and the Scarborough Fair/Calvary is one I did of the PD song with my own lyrics. Oh, and Our Savior is one I cowrote but we still don't have lyrics/vocals on it yet - I'm waiting on my coauthor on that.

Thanks for the link!
(on a related note: When you upload songs, doesn't SoundClick ask you to verify that you aren't uploading music to which you don't own the copyright?)

actually, bottom line what it states is that you must have the right to distribute if you don't own the copyright. that means if you upload covers you're supposed to have a mechanical license before doing so.

I do have license numbers if you would like for me to show them to you.

huh?
no, I'm not trying to be a pain or anything.. It's one of those things we all deal with when uploading files, and I am curious to know how different people deal with it. It never would have occurred to me to pay for a license, so asking this question opens new awareness of the possibilities.

No worries, Pat. It's very difficult to understand each others intentions sometimes in a forum! No offense taken!

most licenses can be obtained from the Harry Fox Agency. that's a representative for a lot of artists. www.hfa.com
for Christian licensing, go to:
https://musicservices.org

here is an excellent resource about obtain mechanical licenses:
http://forums.christiansongwriters.org/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=12245
and another:
http://forums.christiansongwriters.org/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=11540