In a previous post, the idea of receiving free professional advice vs. when to hire a music teacher was touched upon. Also - I have heard a number of musician-friends that often complain "restaurants won't pay musicians to play because "so many people are willing to do it for free", or "they only want to pay you based on how many customers you bring to the restaurant, I can't really control or depend on that."
This question also relates to the very popularly discussed and viewed PG post "Could you live from making music".
Now...I'd like to make some additional income to support my music habit (equipment toys and lessons are pretty expensive if you do both regularly, which is something I like to do
. But I never plan or hope to make enough $$$ to 'give up the day job' working in a school as an Occupational Therapist. Call it thinking small...or call it being realistic. Odds are low given small business startup statistics.
I've often discussed the common "American Dream" fantasy of "Let's discover and Make a Product - and make some money together". PG has done this, I think (the man, that is - not the company per se). I would think he's the genius that had the first idea and pulled it all together - would love to hear his personal account. PG is one of my idols - wish I could have discovered and created such a successful company around music accompaniment generation - where people actually voluntarily spend money on a product and most (even the grumblers about certain issues) find it money well-spent. How many people pay money for things that they resent having had to pay (like accountants to help you do your taxes, or lawyers to help you defend against an unfair attack).
I have some big ideas - but those are a dime a dozen. I have some small ideas that I think are attainable to make some $$$ to support the 'music addiction' - giving lessons, small performances, etc - maybe you have some other small ideas in addition to those mentioned on the "Can you live making music" post. I'd love to hear.
ALl that said - I still haven't lost the pipe dream of inventing and marketing a new product. Many of my thoughts have already been shared on the site. If you'd like to partner and collaborate with me on any that have sparked your interest or imagination - shoot me a PM.
And do weigh in on the 'giving away' topic, share your "small time goals", and whether you still have any "pipe dream, long-shot" goals (but don't give away your secret ideas - lest someone steel and do them first.
And remember, most successful people agree it was the struggle to the top that they enjoyed as much as getting there.
Some here give free professional advice daily.
Guess that tells you how they feel.
Also, I know people who became quite wealthy not by 'making music', but by helping others to do so. Performing is not the only aspect of music.
Here's some free advice to get you started.
1) Don't teach or perform unless you can do it to a professional standard. If people are paying money for your services, it's what they expect and deserve.
2) Don't buy any new "toys" until you've mastered the one's you've got. It'll keep down your costs and speed up the learning process.
ROG.
I agree with ROG on his points.
I do strongly believe, even though it can have negative results, that it's my business to decide if I want to play for free or not. Most musicians though will look down on me and even try to black ball me for not banding together. It's an us against them thinking. I do not go along with that.
Thanks for sharing - I agree with both of you, though the conversation can get more interesting when particular scenarios are posted. Gonna avoid these for now, but I'm sure you can even imagine such scenarios.
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I do strongly believe, even though it can have negative results, that it's my business to decide if I want to play for free or not. Most musicians though will look down on me and even try to black ball me for not banding together. It's an us against them thinking. I do not go along with that.
I've been a member of the American Federation of Musicians since 1974, which is the year I first started earning my full time living playing music. I earned all of my income from music between 1974 and 1979 and have maintained my union membership even though I earn most of my money from another endeaver now. I disagree with your stance and can pretty much tell you that you don't help yourself by peddling your talent to commercial interests below the price where your music business can turn a profit. They are in business to make money and so should you be. Its one thing if you want to play for free for a charity but it is something else altogther to offer your services to a commerical money making interest free of charge. If you start teaching commercial operations that they can negotiate a fee below the union minimum, then they are going to low ball everyone out of the ability to earn a living. Its kind of like the mimimum wage except the musicians themselves have to enforce it instead of the government.
Whether you realize it or not, you are sending the message that you don't think your music is worth paying for.
I guess it is time for me to go into my own personal reasons for deciding to freely share whatever it is that I've learned.
Long ago, I had a private Trumpet teacher who had a rather long list of students and his own office in an office building where the sign read, "Trumpet Lessons". He taught all levels from beginner through grad school students and even beyond, the only caveats being that he reserved the right to tell some student to stop coming to see him and, of course that the majority of students could afford the price of his lessons. Even so, he also would sometimes arrange other payment methods with parents and guardians and even the students themselves as he saw fit. A good man who, over the years, earned a well-desered reputation for being a great man.
Well, one day I showed up for my Saturday lesson and he informed me that, "Teaching is Learning" -- and proceeded to assign me with the duty by placing two younger guys who were just still starting out, still learning the basics, still working on things like being able to play the notes within the staff, learning to read music, embouchure, approach, all the stuff we have to learn. This was to take place on the same Saturdays that I would report for my own lesson. He moved my lesson time to earlier in the morning (ouch) and "my" two students were scheduled typically within a reasonable time after that. Of course, all this was done under the watchful eye and strict supervision of the boss.
I soon discovered that his initial statement, that teaching is learning, had implications to it that I could not have imagined. Sometimes it is necessary to be able to put something into words that we may have been able to do intuitively or without a lot of thinking into the whys, hows and wherefores, but that student needs this information. Merely having to think like that and then elocute in a way to get the point across is usually a new exercise for the teacher and can do a lot to help that teacher improve their own music agenda.
Flash Forward to now.
More than twenty years ago, was involved in that conversation which goes around quite a bit among Jazz Musicians, you know, the lament that Jazz is suppposed to be dying out, that there are far fewer places to play and the audiences are dwindling, life sucks, yada, yada, yada.
This is true, of course, but I began thinking about what could be the possible causes for such and, more importantly, whether or not the accepted and popular explanations had any merit. I immediately ruled out all of the "personal attack" or "demonization" rationales as being highly unlikely, blaming others for our own failures is commonplace and most often wrong assumption way of thinking.
And then it hit me.
There was a time in this great nation when the music arts were taught in the public schools, starting in the kindergartens and grade schools and continuing through to the high school level. This included every student being subjected to at least a singing or chorus class. There were even singing "textbooks" designed for that purpose. Once a week, the second grade (or any grade) class had to attend that choral class and participate in group singing, typically accompanied on a piano by a teacher.
And then there was the Band, Orchestra, "Stage" Band situation, complete with school provided instruments, lessons, rehearsals, all leading up to performance.
"An EDUCATED audience!" I said to myself.
When a lot more people knew a lot more about musics, when many of them had at least been exposed to the participation in what it takes to prepare and perform, regardless of whether or not that person kept with it at a pro level or not, their musical tastes were surely different than the tastes would be of someone who was never exposed to such.
So then I began an informal survey of sorts, began talking more with people who were in the audiences of the little venues and such I was performing in with various acts, and found out that the ones who were truly aficionados of jazz musics consisted of a vast majority of people who had both been exposed to such music education in their youth, many still played an instrument to some extent or another, and -- a rather amazing amount of them who were not pro players turned out to be members of other professions such as Doctors, University Professors, Lawyers, Small Business Owners, etc. -- people who were movers and shakers.
So, I have found, over the years, that an EDUCATED AUDIENCE, not necessarily "degreed," mind you, but an audience that knows a bit more than nothing much at all about music, is my target audience.
Don't become one of those musicians who sees a young guitar player, for example, watching you intently while onstage in an effort to see and learn -- and does something puerile like turn your back so they can't see what you're doing. (Yes, I've actually witnessed that example...)
Clark Terry's splendid autobiography really drives that point home.
"Teaching is Learning"
I think that far too many in this profession are singing lyrics like "Reach Out and Touch, Somebody's Hand, Make this World a Better Place, if You Can," while doing nothing at all other than singing that stoopid song.
--Mac
I am also an AFofM member, since 1973. If it weren't for grant funding, I could not make a profit playing music in my region. This is a reasonably affluent area north of New York City, and yet clubs and restaurants pay the same for music that they did in the 1970s.
I am very glad I brought the topic up; it is an important one with very real ramifications. I respect everyone's opinion - and very glad everyone is sharing and calmly discussing. Please let's keep this a discussion, let's not get personal, and certainly let's not attack each other in any way
Mac..
thanks for that story and for your perspective on this topic.. FWIW, you are still teaching anybody who is willing to listen.
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Don't buy any new "toys" until you've mastered the one's you've got. It'll keep down your costs and speed up the learning process.
ROG.
Rog,
I basically agree with this advice, especially for a young person. But as I approach retirement and the reduced income that goes with it, I find myself violating the second admonition. The irony of my life has always been that when I had money, I didn't have time to use it, and when I had time (unemployment etc) I had no money to do anything.
This time, my plan is to look ahead, anticipate what I will need in order to use my retirement to the hilt, then buy it now while I have the finances to do it, but not the time to explore it. The time will come later.
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I am also an AFofM member, since 1973. If it weren't for grant funding, I could not make a profit playing music in my region. This is a reasonably affluent area north of New York City, and yet clubs and restaurants pay the same for music that they did in the 1970s .
...they pay such rates, in my opinion, BECAUSE THEY CAN - the supply and demand is such that the going rate has stayed the same. Keep in mind that many companies give 'product' away cheaply or for free, which really needs to be called "advertising". In fact, when someone plays for 'free', they really are getting something in return that is of value as equal to them as that cash is to the person relying on music 'for a living'. That's why they're doing it.
What also comes into play is people that do music for fun or as a hobby really want an audience, and can afford to play for free for the pure pleasure of playing in front of an audience. And the market is such that many audiences are just as happy hearing a 'skilled hobbyist' (these guys are sometimes as good as the 'full time professionals' - especially to the untrained ear).
Lastly - it's human nature to get items as cheaply as you can (within the law, that is, though some people have their own 'laws' which are different than those on the books). Every day you buy a closeout item for less than it cost the manufacturer to make - you are taking advantage of their mistake in estimating 'demand'. The result of their effort to minimize their loss results in a good deal for consumers, and stiffer competition for their competitors. And let's not forget that offering product at the best price you can get from your buyers is the CAPITALIST WAY.
What's your perspective on the business owners (e.g. restaurant or bar owners) position ? I would think they feel every time they can minimize an expense to offer a superior product - like offering dinner AND pleasant music instead of just dinner, they're offering something to stand out from their competition. Why not get musicians that will work as cheaply as possible based on the supply ? They may be in the process of having taken out loans to open the business, and really looking to play every angle they can to make the best of their success (does anyone know how competitive the restaurant business is, and the associated failure rate - I'm pretty sure it's very high).
Spinning off Mac's observation about performing for an informed audience.. (and this may take the discussion in a different direction... if so, sorry)
I want to start by saying that my loose definition of "talent" is the ability to do something that everybody else can't easily duplicate. (People who scribble on a canvas and call it art don't meet that definition of talent, but I digress.)
The problem with using backing tracks in a performance is that the audience is not informed enough to differentiate between somebody who bought karaoke tracks and sang along with them (requires marginal talent and almost anybody could do that... although the quality of the singing would be affected by talent or lack of it)
In most of our cases, though, there's more talent involved than the audience can see.
We've spent years learning how to use software, how to mix audio, how to play multiple instruments, how to sing, how to use MIDI to control gear, how to use the gear (vocal processors, effects, harmonizers etc) to work together seamlessly in a real time performance , so that no "gotchas" ruin the show, etc etc.
The thought occurred to me that through banter with the audience, we could educate them about why our act is different from a karaoke act, and why we made the decisions to lay the act out as we did. I think most audiences would find the explanations interesting, and by the end of the show they would be enlightened about how much work and talent it takes to bring such an act to their stage. With knowledge comes appreciation.
I guess what I'm saying is that if the audience in attendance is not already informed about music and about your presentation of it, it is in our power to educate them as part of the act.
And, getting back to the threads original question: as perceived value of your act increases, you should be able to charge more for it, and get it.
the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
Once people got used to it, they didn't want to endure another learning curve, and it became the de-facto standard OS. And that's when they started charging for updates. We now know how rich that tactic made Bill Gates.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
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the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
If IBM had not perceived that it had a problem with Apple encroaching on its turf in the business world, we would all be using Apples today and no one would have ever heard of Microsoft. IBM knew absouletely nothing about personal computers when it first went to Bill Gates. In fact, they thought that Gates program BASIC could run on a personal computer without an operating system, and Gates had to set them straight. Ultimately, IBM was in such a hurry, that after they failed to connect in an attempt to acquire use of CP/M, they signed with Gates to provide them an operating system without having him sign an exclusive use contract. Gates made a ton of money from IBM, which funded his cut rate offers to other computer makers. That coupled with Apple's refusal to license their software to anyone led to the predominance of MicroSoft. Another big thing that boosted Microsoft is that people wanted their desktop computers to talk to the big main frame down the hall with big blue's initials on it.
Back in the 60's, you could keep a 4-piece working for scale and make enough to make a meager living. People actually went out to hear live music. There were clubs everywhere. Bands flourished. Clubs flourished. A lot of great bands came out of those clubs.
Those days are gone forever.
Today, people simply don't value music, or musicians. Any guy who can scratch a needle across a record is considered a performer , and if he can string a bunch of loops together he's considered a producer.
Mac is right. Today's Gen-Xers didn't grow up playing an instrument in the school band. They grew up "playing" music with Guitar Hero. They are, for the most part, self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings devoid of any musical appreciation. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
Want to play for free? Fine. There are plenty of open mics to get your stage rush on and be a star. But when you play a normally paying gig for free, you are taking food out of the mouth of someone who has actually paid their dues.
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Today's Gen-Xers didn't grow up playing an instrument in the school band. They grew up "playing" music with Guitar Hero. They are, for the most part, self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings devoid of any musical appreciation. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
In my experience, even back in the day, there were plenty of "self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings"! And today I know plenty of sensational young musicians! Generally I really don't think people have changed all that much. The further we get from "the good ol' days" the better they look!
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the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
If IBM had not perceived that it had a problem with Apple encroaching on its turf in the business world, we would all be using Apples today and no one would have ever heard of Microsoft. IBM knew absouletely nothing about personal computers when it first went to Bill Gates. In fact, they thought that Gates program BASIC could run on a personal computer without an operating system, and Gates had to set them straight. Ultimately, IBM was in such a hurry, that after they failed to connect in an attempt to acquire use of CP/M, they signed with Gates to provide them an operating system without having him sign an exclusive use contract. Gates made a ton of money from IBM, which funded his cut rate offers to other computer makers. That coupled with Apple's refusal to license their software to anyone led to the predominance of MicroSoft. Another big thing that boosted Microsoft is that people wanted their desktop computers to talk to the big main frame down the hall with big blue's initials on it.
You're right and if Apple had not given all those computers to schools for free/cheap, Apple would probably not be here today!
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I want to start by saying that my loose definition of "talent" is the ability to do something that everybody else can't easily duplicate. (People who scribble on a canvas and call it art don't meet that definition of talent, but I digress.)
We have this conversation at my house all the time! What is Art? It is kinda hard to pin down but I have come to understand that just because I don't see something as art does not mean that it is not art (except for me perhaps!)
You guys forgot the part of the story where Bill Gates bailed his good friend Steve Jobs over at Apple out?
They might not even be here today had he not done that.
--Mac
About the low pay and where the gigs went, here's something I've noticed:
A lot of the same musicians who spend time dwelling and harping about the problem are also the ones most likely to be taking advantage of free downloads of other people's copyrighted works.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
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You guys forgot the part of the story where Bill Gates bailed his good friend Steve Jobs over at Apple out?
They might not even be here today had he not done that.
--Mac
You're right! And, had Steve Jobs not returned they probably would not be where they are now. Lots of factors that don't fit neatly in the book of "How to Build a Company and Succeed"!
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About the low pay and where the gigs went, here's something I've noticed:
A lot of the same musicians who spend time dwelling and harping about the problem are also the ones most likely to be taking advantage of free downloads of other people's copyrighted works.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
Anyone in particular?
I would like to express my appreciation to Mac, rharv and others who have helped me over the last few years.
On another note: If you want to play for free, there are places where you won't be taking away from anyone's paycheck. Rescue missions, convalescent homes, jail ministries, etc. They'll all be highly appreciative and treat you like a star.
I remember apologizing for missing a chord and an old lady looked up and said, "We don't know the difference."
Don S.
I certainly understand how frustrating it must be for a career performer to lose gigs because someone else is willing to play for less (or even free) but isn't that precisely how our country works? The store on one side of town is losing sales to the store on the other side of town so they reduce prices to get back some of those customers. (I know there are a lot more factors than price but keeping it simple to make a point!)
If I own a small restaurant odds are I will make little to no money and likely be out of business in a few years. Most fail! So if I can find some excited young talent willing to play for free in order to gain experience while still providing an acceptable quality of entertainment to my customers I feel everybody wins. Except, of course, for the musician who feels someone unfairly took his paying gig which probably wouldn't have been a paying gig anyway.
When conditions change, stay on your feet, improvise, adapt and overcome.
My father told me something once when I was a wee lad with a Trumpet, trying to audition into the Youth Symphony Orchestra and up against high school and college age trumpet players. He said, "There will always be room for the best. So practice hard to be the best."
I passed the audition and at the time, became one of the youngest ever picked.
--Mac
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I certainly understand how frustrating it must be for a career performer to lose gigs because someone else is willing to play for less (or even free) but isn't that precisely how our country works? The store on one side of town is losing sales to the store on the other side of town so they reduce prices to get back some of those customers. (I know there are a lot more factors than price but keeping it simple to make a point!)
If I own a small restaurant odds are I will make little to no money and likely be out of business in a few years. Most fail! So if I can find some excited young talent willing to play for free in order to gain experience while still providing an acceptable quality of entertainment to my customers I feel everybody wins. Except, of course, for the musician who feels someone unfairly took his paying gig which probably wouldn't have been a paying gig anyway.
You might feel differently if you were the working musician losing a job to a free player, John. Trust me.
But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim. 
90 db,
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You might feel differently if you were the working musician losing a job to a free player, John. Trust me.
I’m with you on this one. If someone wants to play for free, then there are lots of nursing homes, Senior Citizens centers, rehab and maybe even some hospitals where the audience and the staff will likely be a very appreciative bunch.
But if you play for free at a venue that normally pays their performers, you’re hurting your fellow musicians, … many of whom need the gig to support themselves and/or their family. That ain’t cool.
JMHO.
The bottom line is I live in the US and Capitalism is the way we work.If you can't make enough money playing music because I can/do play for less don't blame me . It's the system and I love it.And BTW I bet I've played close to 10K paying gigs so I'm not just a wanabee.
Now the real reason I will play for free is to get all the gigs I can get in a tough market.I make more tips playing then I do watching TV. All my tips and income, if I get any, goes to by food, bedding etc. for the animals at our local shelter.If I take a gig away from you ohwell you can get a job at WalMart. The animals can't. All they get in the end is the gas chamber.
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When conditions change, stay on your feet, improvise, adapt and overcome.
which is EXACTLY why I think one man acts with backing tracks are the logical adaptation in a market where 1 man DJs and 1 man karaoke have lowered the business owner's cost expectations for live music.
Don't give up.. change your strategy! See what's working for others, watch what the venues are willing to pay for and what the audiences are willing to listen to.
Then instead of feeling like you took a step DOWN, give it all you've got and raise the bar for solo acts. Make YOUR act so interesting that it's the one people want to see and the one that venues want to hire.
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"There will always be room for the best. So practice hard to be the best."
AMEN Brothah!
We talk about the high failure rate of new businesses... but it's worth remembering that some new businesses not only survive, they flourish in the same economy that others blame for their failure.
The ones that succeed are typically the ones that did their homework
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But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.
90db.
This is so true. It's why I tell my students to be wary of advice from people who claim to be experts, but who have no real-world evidence to support the claim.
ROG.
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I want to start by saying that my loose definition of "talent" is the ability to do something that everybody else can't easily duplicate. (People who scribble on a canvas and call it art don't meet that definition of talent, but I digress.)
We have this conversation at my house all the time! What is Art? It is kinda hard to pin down but I have come to understand that just because I don't see something as art does not mean that it is not art (except for me perhaps!)
That isn't really my attempt to define art.. it's more my criteria for respecting someone's presentation of what he/she claims to be the manifestation of talent.
When I watch the olympics, I see those athletes doing things I CAN'T DO, and that impresses me. If I went somewhere and paid to be entertained, and the act consisted of a guy eating a plate of spaghetti, I'd want my money back, because *I* can do that! ANYBODY can do that!
(Unless he ate it through his ears, in which case he's entitled to whatever they're payin' him, because, *I* don't even WANT to do THAT!!)
Well, I haven't played 10000 gigs
, but then, I've only been doing it for 47 years. If you play for free, people usually believe that's what it's worth.
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Well, I haven't played 10000 gigs , but then, I've only been doing it for 47 years. If you play for free, people usually believe that's what it's worth.
Music has been VERY good to me. I'm now using my God given skills to try and give back. I just so happen to choose animals to help. That's all.If it now means playing for free ,I play for free.IF there were more paying gigs these days I'd go for that but I will not sit home just because.
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You might feel differently if you were the working musician losing a job to a free player, John. Trust me.
Nope I would not feel differently. I have owned a small business for over 20 years and we have had to cut our prices and even do stuff for free some times to compete. We work within the marketplace we are in and try to make our services attractive enough to be able to charge a fair price but some times a less qualified competitor comes along and would win on price if we didn't react. So rather than complain that he should not be allowed to do it for less or for free we find another way to win the customer or find other customers. Same thing as a musician playing gigs!
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But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.
I have no idea what your point is with this! An accusation? A confession?
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You might feel differently if you were the working musician losing a job to a free player, John. Trust me.
Nope I would not feel differently. I have owned a small business for over 20 years and we have had to cut our prices and even do stuff for free some times to compete. We work within the marketplace we are in and try to make our services attractive enough to be able to charge a fair price but some times a less qualified competitor comes along and would win on price if we didn't react. So rather than complain that he should not be allowed to do it for less or for free we find another way to win the customer or find other customers. Same thing as a musician playing gigs!
Really? The "same thing"? Have you ever been a musician playing gigs? I doubt it. If you had, you would understand what I'm talking about.
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But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.
I have no idea what your point is with this! An accusation? A confession?
Just an observation. Strike a nerve?
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Just an observation. Strike a nerve?
Nope. Standard internet fare. Try and discount someone who doesn't agree with you.
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Really? The "same thing"?
Yep. Same thing!
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The bottom line is I live in the US and Capitalism is the way we work.If you can't make enough money playing music because I can/do play for less don't blame me . It's the system and I love it.
I agree! It is how our system works.
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All my tips and income, if I get any, goes to by food, bedding etc. for the animals at our local shelter.If I take a gig away from you ohwell you can get a job at WalMart. The animals can't. All they get in the end is the gas chamber.
Nice thing you are doing there silvertones!
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Just an observation. Strike a nerve?
Nope. Standard internet fare. Try and discount someone who doesn't agree with you.
How could I discount an opinion based on conjecture?
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Really? The "same thing"?
Yep. Same thing!
Okey Dokey. All businesses are basically the same. Econ 101. 
I told my kids stuff for free for years. No charge. But they've no time for me now. Too busy. Can't spare my back and load some stuff for the dump. It's still up to me.
They might live 20 minutes away, seems like days away.
But if they need to borrow the car, a tool, the big dryer, my pickup, or whatever, consider that a given.
Still a one way street.
For 27 years now Mom and Dad are here for Sunday supper. And I run Birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving...bbq's.
ONCE, 3 years ago, Father's Day was not me and my Dad, with my kids here, it was at my Son's. And I framed the pictures.
There is a song about this right?
Free Advice.
I'm off to play the blues and black coffee, love for sale, etc. Need to feel morose. The weather helps. Gray for months, wet, rainy, sad and dreary.
I worked as a consultant for many years. In that business I made good money. Never did in music though. The best were piano playing gigs at the holiday inn on a busy weekend. Sometimes Wednesdays were best. Travelling guys, 1/2 way through a week away, sad, drunk, and willing to share a dime.
Right brother? Share a dime.
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How could I discount an opinion based on conjecture?
so it was a confession?
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Really? The "same thing"?
Yep. Same thing!
Okey Dokey. All businesses are basically the same. Econ 101.
close enough for this conversation. ya gotta get out and hustle whether you are playing music or running a business. any time you spend sad over the other guy under bidding you is wasted cause you lost the gig and the time!
Heres my take. I am a business professional who is in the fortunate position of earning my money from that. I am fortunate in that I don’t need to earn money from my music. If I am careful I will never need to earn my money from music. It would be nice but I am under no illusions that I will ever earn as much from playing music as I do from writing specifications for business systems. Music is my hobby.
A friend of mine has started a food market. She has done a huge amount of work, a lot of it for the community. It is just starting to take off. I play there every Saturday morning for free. It is a win-win situation. She gets the free musician and I get the exposure (and BTW I do improve hugely every week). I love it! Moreover I display a banner with my website and give out cards. I think it is only a matter of time before people are asking me to do private functions, where I can charge something. I am also not about to start charging her when her market is doing better. We will grow together.
I don’t think I am taking the money out of another musician’s mouth as she would not be in a position (or probably willing) to pay anybody and would just have music on a pa system. I am interested in other people’s take on this.
Joanne, I think what you are doing is great! Do you receive any money from tips? Seems that might be a way to at least cover expenses. Also if you have a CD you should do a raffle every hour and give one away. Maybe sell your CD there as well. BTW, lovely pic of you and your guitar on your home page!
Hi John.
Thanks so much! Not getting tips. Don’t really feel it is appropriate but the vendors are always giving me free stuff to eat and drink. My expenses are minimal, only petrol to get there and it is not far. Now just to put that CD together. Have already had a couple of requests for a cd but don’t have enough original stuff and don’t want to infringe copyright by recording covers. I am going to start performing my original stuff in between covers…soon.........soon…..
Thanks for the compliment on the photo. The same friend who started the market is also a photographer and we did this shoot together.
Joanne,
I think I am on a similar journey as you! I have a "real" job that I love and do not see me depending on music to pay my bills any time soon! I just started writing my own songs less than a year ago. And I bought Band In A Box back in September! I am positively thrilled with my new songs and with BIAB to produce accompaniment for them!! I'll have a CD in 2013 for sure but it is mostly a bucket list item rather than a retirement plan!
“I just started writing my own songs less than a year ago.”
“I'll have a CD in 2013 for sure...”
“But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.”
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“But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.”
Often, people say things that have hidden messages - those messages can be positive or negative.
I remember telling one of my bosses "Look, I know this job may end any day now, that the company can easily replace me with a lower paid worker, that I only have a job because you guys allow me to be here - I know all those things, but please, don't remind me of them every single day, and make me FEEL like you actually value me - it will be better for both of us." Actually - maybe I just told a coworker that I'd like to say that to the boss
I think maybe the quoted expression falls into that category where it's true, and most people are living on 'dreams' that are unlikely, or low percentage to ever happen (especially mine !!). But those dreams make people happy and keep them working toward their goals and passions. Don't remind them that their initial 'lofty' goals often don't materialize as envisioned. Because the people that persist fueled by the energy of their dreams often reach far higher than they would have without that energy. Don't squash their dreams.
...Just my opinion...or as is often said on this site,
....Just Sayin'
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“I just started writing my own songs less than a year ago.”
“I'll have a CD in 2013 for sure...”
“But then, this is the internet, and one can "be" whatever one wants- a musician, a guru, a genius, a songwriter, pick a delusion. One only needs to make the claim.”
Still don't get your point as I never claimed to be a performing musician or anything like that! All I did was disagree with your position about musicians playing for free. But so what? We disagree a lot around here. I don't think I ever disagreed with someone and accused them of being delusional! :/
Bottom line for me is a person (whether musician or small businessman) shouldn't spend much time worrying about being undercut by their competition and instead should find a positive way to work around this by seeking new customers, being so good that they always hire you, coming up with something new, etc. And if you are a musician (or my competitor) trying to break in and willing to work for nothing, go for it! The universe has a way of working these things out.
Liars abound.
But those who tell the truth are out here as well.
As with all things, you can tell them apart by the fruits that they bear.
--Mac
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“I just started writing my own songs less than a year ago.”
“I'll have a CD in 2013 for sure...”
Hey John,
Go for it 100%. If you make it, fine. If you don't, at least you tried.
Don S.
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I think maybe the quoted expression falls into that category where it's true, and most people are living on 'dreams' that are unlikely, or low percentage to ever happen (especially mine !!). But those dreams make people happy and keep them working toward their goals and passions. Don't remind them that their initial 'lofty' goals often don't materialize as envisioned. Because the people that persist fueled by the energy of their dreams often reach far higher than they would have without that energy. Don't squash their dreams.
this thought deserves a thread of its own. It is a significant observation, IMO, and its a topic on which people have strong diametrically opposing opinions. I've seen arguments in both direction on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear people develop their preference for "keeping it real" as opposed to "pursuing the dream" (and maybe never catching it) and everything in between.
It shows up in the way people critique songs posted in the the user showcase, among other places.
For example, if somebody posts a song and it sucks, do you point out every flaw so he can improve? (or do you say unrealistically positive things so he feels good about his song and doesn't give up?)
If so, how do you reconcile the duplicity of offering severe criticism of an expert's superior work when you are offering praise for something that is clearly inferior?
What is the functional divide between the dream and reality?
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this thought deserves a thread of its own. It is a significant observation, IMO, and its a topic on which people have strong diametrically opposing opinions. I've seen arguments in both direction on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear people develop their preference for "keeping it real" as opposed to "pursuing the dream" (and maybe never catching it) and everything in between.
It shows up in the way people critique songs posted in the the user showcase, among other places.
For example, if somebody posts a song and it sucks, do you point out every flaw so he can improve? (or do you say unrealistically positive things so he feels good about his song and doesn't give up?)
If so, how do you reconcile the duplicity of offering severe criticism of an expert's superior work when you are offering praise for something that is clearly inferior?
What is the functional divide between the dream and reality?
Pat, this def could/should be a thread of its own. I have struggled with this forever with all of my art. When I ask for feedback I want honesty, yet, I also really love a glowing review from a friend even when I know I didn't completely deserve it. Plus it is all so subjective. Maybe the song didn't suck but the reviewer just hates that song. And maybe considering the singer/songwriter they have improved 100% since their last song so there is greatness to talk about. Lemme know if you figure this one out!
Well, here's one freebie gig the guy can keep as far as I'm concerned:
Band on SKIs? Always thought there was something weird going on in the Trombone sections...
--Mac
That wasn't you, was it Lawrie??
Nuh, but I'm thinking of trying it next time I go for a snow holiday
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this thought deserves a thread of its own. It is a significant observation, IMO, and its a topic on which people have strong diametrically opposing opinions. I've seen arguments in both direction on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear people develop their preference for "keeping it real" as opposed to "pursuing the dream" (and maybe never catching it) and everything in between.
It shows up in the way people critique songs posted in the the user showcase, among other places.
For example, if somebody posts a song and it sucks, do you point out every flaw so he can improve? (or do you say unrealistically positive things so he feels good about his song and doesn't give up?)
If so, how do you reconcile the duplicity of offering severe criticism of an expert's superior work when you are offering praise for something that is clearly inferior?
What is the functional divide between the dream and reality?
I think it is age old question of what do you say when the significant other (usually, and very sexist I know, the woman) asks “does my behind look big in this?”
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I think it is age old question of what do you say when the significant other (usually, and very sexist I know, the woman) asks “does my behind look big in this?”
one difference is that if you're honest about somebody's song, it doesn't increase the likelihood that you'll remain celibate for the next two months....
"Naw, baby, I LIKE the way your cheeks leave those endearing tracks along the beach sand..."
OK I confess. I always get paid for playing. Just not always $$$$$$$$$$$$.We place too much emphases on $$$$$$$$$$ as the only means of compensation.
Joe, I'm going to dust off my old chops here. In addition to making a living touring North America in the 70's I came off the road and went to work at one of the larger booking agents as a union subagent. Everything we did was union contracts. I know what it takes and how to sell an act.
One question. Are you a good singer and a charismatic performer? By good I mean American Idol good. You wouldn't believe how good some of the acts I used to book were. If your vocal and performing chops are that good then great, I could put you to work right now doing singles assuming you have your instrumental act together too. Not a singer? Forget it.
My good friend Eddie Greely who died a few years ago was a graduate of the UCLA School of Music. His father George was a very famous movie orchestrator in the 40's. You can Google him. Eddie had perfect pitch and could sing like Sinatra plus do classic rock like Mustang Sally and the like. Shortly before he died he was making about 3,500-4,000 per month doing singles in retirement homes for $200 each. Since this is SoCal he was driving all over the place from Sherman Oaks in the valley down to Newport Beach sometimes doing two gigs per day. He was putting 25-30K on his car a year. He could only do that because of his skills as a pianist and a vocalist. He also worked in a classic rock show group at night on the weekends but those gigs were only occasional. Doing a single is the only way to make a living but there's not much fun in it. No buddies on stage to interact with and all that.
People play for free because if they didn't they wouldn't get to play out at all. I know the union line very well Keith but the union is basically dead out here.
Music is a performance art, without an audience what's the point? There's thousands of highly skilled music grads coming out of schools every year chasing very few paying gigs. If you're not an Eddie Greely or Johhny, oh yeah I didn't tell you about him, you have no chance. Johnny is even better than Eddie but he gave it up and is making about 150K as a longshoreman in the port of Long Beach. Johnny toured with some big name rockers as a drummer plus plays his butt off on guitar and man, what a voice. I mean a seriously killer voice. Gave it up in the mid 80's, no money any more.
That's it in a nutshell.
The dichotomy between all those music grads and yet saying live music is dead is something isn't it? All these Youtube vids of child phenoms proves good music is not dead but yet it is dead as far as local places to hear it or play it live is concerned. It's evolved to the same status as classical music. Jazz will always be around, it will continue to be taught but the only way you hear it is on the one radio station out of dozens that still plays it or the occasional big concert at Royce Hall or the Hollywood Bowl.
Bob
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Often, people say things that have hidden messages - those messages can be positive or negative.
...Just my opinion...or as is often said on this site,....Just Sayin'
Yup, that little "disclaimer" makes it alright to say "snarky" things it seems, reminds me of the "Who, Me?" kid...
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Liars abound. But those who tell the truth are out here as well. As with all things, you can tell them apart by the fruits that they bear.
Or the response they give.....
Joanne, we gave a listen to your 2 originals, and we have to say keep it up! They sound good to us, so we bookmarked your page to "keep an eye on ya."
I made my living playing live for over 30 + years, and am only "out of it" because of health reasons, both mine & the better half's.. In that time I "undercut" a lot of folks because..
1. It is called "The Music Business", not "The Music Charity". Like any biz, I hustled, paid my taxes, and made a profit. They ones I "undercut" were folks who thought their worth was way more than it was...you can only go so far on rep, and when arrogance & snobbery shows up because of it most folks would rather play with someone else.
2. I was "freelance", both live & studio. I did my job, showed up on time, helped with load in & out, and went the extra mile to make any band I played with feel comfortable. When folks hired me they knew that the night was going to go smoothly, up until the load out was complete. The ones I "took jobs from" mainly showed up, played, packed their stuff & held their hand out....
Again, if you are in "The Music Business" you need to treat it as such, or get left behind whining about how bad it is. For a few years a lot of us rented halls at the slower "animal clubs" & played for free while the club ran the bar. It helped the club, keep us in practice, and when things turned around who do you think were the best paid musicians?
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work? I know Norton's argument about midi, but truth be told it still sounds like midi no matter what anyone does to it. There is not one demo of midi backing tracks that would tempt me to sit thru 4 sets in a club. Real Tracks, on the other hand, makes seeing a 1 or 2 man band more enticing, and bearable.
So, is using BiaB undercutting musicians job's? And if so, why is their not some negative comments aimed at PGMusic?
IMHO it is because the product speaks for itself, and since it gives everyone the ability to play with "real musicians" that don't have attitudes, it is accepted.
Just Sayin'.... 
Quite a few acts mix real stringed instruments, guitars, bass, also sometimes real horns, with keyboards today and more often than in the past, those keyboards are... MIDI keyboards.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
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Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
The acoustic musician who ignores use of mic, type of mic, mic positioning, PA settings, PA type, Hall Size, and likely a few other things as well, is asking for it to come out bad.
--Mac
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What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
ok - you got me on semantics, I mean there is no electricity creating their initial timbres or sequencing....and you can probably get me on that too - but I'm sure you know what I mean....
wait...I did mean without the mic - the mics would be the next grade up after 1 - say 1a
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Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
Joe, I was a little reserved about the whole looping thing but after seeing someone live on stage create 5 or 6 backing tracks in real time and then loop those and sing over top...well I was pretty impressed! (I know that is not DJing but...)
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I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
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I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
Very profound John.
Later,
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I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
I'm of the opinion that BIAB and RealTracks could actually reverse the current trend and put a lot of musicians BACK to work. I think it is the shape of things to come, the most common and maybe best alternative for performing musicians going forward.
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Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
based on what you just said, wouldn't it be a GOOD thing for a musician to be more like a DJ?
FWIW, I DO think that it takes talent, (or at least skill) to be a good DJ. They have to do a lot of the same things musicians do, such as :
Buy gear
learn to use it
learn to work a crowd
learn how to run a small business
know a lot about the songs they're presenting to the audience
own a vehicle capable of hauling the gear around
have muscles capable of schlepping the gear in and out of gigs
learn enough about MIDI to run the light show
etc
"MUSICIAN", "BAND", "DJ", "KARAOKE", "SINGER"... those words are too specific for me.
I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.
Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
and I refuse to be a member of any group that would have me as a member
/*I miss groucho*/
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”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
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Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
I LOVE this thread. It is so refreshing to know that I am not the only one out there with all these questions, thoughts and experiences. I have never been part of a music forum before. Have probably been in a vacuum all these years!. John Conley, what you have done is absolutely great. I aspire to that. Pat, I also love your list of what DJs and musicians have to do. I am going to put some of those things on my to-do list.
jcspro40, thanks for giving my songs a listen. They are just a start I know but I am going to persevere.
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”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
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Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
Hey, thanks for chiming in on this Bob.. I hoped you would! You always have an intelligent point to make on any topic.
Yes, you are one who always weighs in on the "artist" side of the equation. You would rather play to a room with 20 people who actually understand what you're doing and appreciate it than to a stadium full of morons who only showed up because there was also a singing monkey act. I respect your position... but I can't take it because I just don't have the ARTISTIC talent to go that route. I have to factor in some technical knowledge to compensate for having less artistic knowledge.
I understand that purists like you will tend to look down on people like me who pursue music as a business rather than as an art. But I also know there is NO way to pursue anything in a way that pleases everybody, so we all gotta pursue this life with whatever strengths and weaknesses we have. I don't have your talent, but I do have some business sense. I can make that work for me more easily than I can duplicate your proficiency.
and, speaking of clowns...
I agree wholehearted with Bob's comments about the "clowns" in the industry.BUT...
the starving artist is a long-standing cultural cliche. You often hear of killer musicians playing to a room of 20 people with no cover charge,so they put out a tip jar... whereas Lada Gaga, Alice Cooper and other musical "franchises" play to sold out stadiums and the tickets weren't cheap.
If we judge by income, a superficial look would indicate that the clowns are winning.
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"MUSICIAN", "BAND", "DJ", "KARAOKE", "SINGER"... those words are too specific for me.
I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.
let me flesh this out rather than letting it rot on the compost pile of excess verbage...
I'm close to retirement, but my employer figured out a way to screw me out of the pension that was supposed to be deferred earned income... and the market has decimated the 401k that was supposed to replace the pension. We all know about social security's problems.
I want music to be my vehicle for making up the difference between bills and retirement income.
I believe in the adage "different strokes for different folks." A salesman has to sell what the customer wants. There are venues that want full bands, while others want singles acts, DJs, Karaoke, open mic, comedy club etc.
The gear required to be a band, solo act, DJ, karaoke act is 90% the same. If I carve out only one niche, then the most I can get is a fraction of the action. But if I am prepared to offer multiple entertainment services, I think I can stay busy enough to turn down the least desirable gigs and still have a comfortable retirement.
In summary, I am NOT interested in playing for free or for tips. I am specifically interested in generating income.
Pat,
Thanks for the kind words. I would like to address this statement:
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I understand that purists like you will tend to look down on people like me who pursue music as a business rather than as an art.
There’s nothing wrong with approaching music as a business and making decisions to improve your chances of being successful. Learning the skills required to do all the things you’ve mentioned takes not only musical talent but technical expertise and drive. I admire and respect that. It’s an absolute necessity for musicians who are trying to make a living with music by playing local venues.
I hope you’re successful at doing just that.
As far as being a “purist”, I’ve never really thought of myself as that but I definitely lean in that direction. Even though I listen to and like a wide variety of music, I’m still drawn to actual instruments in the traditional sense.
Wood and strings, … brass and wind. Electricity for amplification and lighting. LOL.
Synthesized and quantized music, … not so much. But that’s just my personal preferences and even I make exceptions and listen to it occasionally.
I am encouraged by the depth of talent that I’ve seen on the acoustic scene from young people like Sierra Hull, Sarah Jarosz, Chris Thile, etc. It confirms to me that what I light heartedly call “real music” is alive and well in the hands of a few young musicians.
Pat,
I wish you luck with your music business. You are in an area with a lot of possible venues, so you should do well.
Having said that, I must disagree with this statement: "The gear required to be a band, solo act, DJ, karaoke act is 90% the same."
A single act can usually get away with a very small PA, maybe even a single powered speaker and a small mixer, a mic and a stand, or one of the Bose systems. A DJ, on the other hand, is going to need a lot more thump, which would include two larger mains and a pair of subs, and the amps to drive them. Powered speakers or power amps? Bi-amped? Going to need a Driverack? Rack for rackmount gear? Big difference in cost and size. Another consideration is the venues you expect to play. Small, large, indoors or outdoors? These each have their own challenges audio-wise. A system that is adequate in a restaurant may be totally worthless on an outdoor stage.
If you plan to cover so many bases (single, DJ, Karaoke) you are probably going to need two systems - one small and one killer thumper. You aren't going to carry a pair of subs in your car along with mains, amp rack, guitars, etc.. Now you're into a trailer, and all the associated costs that go with it.
I'm not trying to throw cold water on your plans. Just saying that you might want to start small and go from there. You might find that you can get all the restaurant work you can handle as a single, and drive to gigs in your car.
You say that you want to do this as a business - then you might want to keep detailed records of your expenditures: equipment, gas, vehicle maintenance, etc. so you can figure out your ROI. It also helps to keep a "book" containing every contact you make, manager's name and number, every gig you play, and to keep track of future bookings.
I know that advice is cheap, and I don't want to meddle, but having done this for a long time, there are mistakes I've made that I would hope you could avoid.
Regards,
Bob
There are always disagreements when it comes to the artists verses the business side of things. Was George Benson not an artist? A lot of pros say no but he laughed all the way to the bank. How about Kenny G? Whatever your view you must admit that both were musicians. You may not like their approach to music but they were musicians.
I ran a weekend warrior wedding band for years. Our approach was always business. No pay no play. We were so busy that we had to turn down gigs. Why, because we played what they wanted to hear. If we played what we want to play we would have no far less gigs, if any.
So did we sell out?
PS – that is why today I refuse to gig, even though I have opportunities to do so. I want to play what I want to play now and with BiaB I can! Retirement does have some rewards
Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that every musical group I've ever performed with consisted of a buncha clowns.
Yours Truly Inclusive.
--Mac
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Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that every musical group I've ever performed with consisted of a buncha clowns.
Yours Truly Inclusive.
--Mac
So true here also
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Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that every musical group I've ever performed with consisted of a buncha clowns.
Yours Truly Inclusive.
--Mac
So true here also
I still resemble that remark!
PS: Know who was a clown? That Charlie Brown!
Later,
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Quite a few acts mix real stringed instruments, guitars, bass, also sometimes real horns, with keyboards today and more often than in the past, those keyboards are... MIDI keyboards.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
I fully agree, but 90% of the time a person is PLAYING those keyboards, and the midi is triggering the sounds that the musician is inputting in real time.
And when it is being used to generate a backing track is a FULL band setting there are enough live musicians to cover it. By default the live musicians make the midi "breath" some, due to the human element that is playing over top of the midi. It is not the same in a solo or duo setting IMHO.
My comment was about using midi backing tracks to perform over, just letting them play while folks strum or sing over the top of them. In that situation midi is not something that will make me want to sit thru 4 hours of a show.
Your demo of Peg for the SD2 is one of the RARE exceptions to the stiff sounding Midi that folks are use to, but truth be told I have never heard a solo-duo OMB that had that level of quality all night...and even with the great sounds of the SD2, it still sound's "synthetic"....but WAY more bearable than most out there.
At the end of the day it boils down to how you want to spend your money, listening to an artist/duo + midi, listening to an artist/duo + Real Tracks, or listening to an artist/duo + studio musicians from their release playing in the background....we will take the last 2 any day. Of course there is also the choice of listening to an artist/duo raw with NO backing tracks at all, which is totally acceptable!
totally depends on your definition of success. if Alice Cooper's goal was to make some music, play a bunch of large venues, sell lots of records, become wealthy and literally become a pop icon, then I'd have to say that was a total success!
and while I am not a Lady Gaga fan, I have watched her perform and what she does is pretty amazing. try wearing an exotic outfit and dancing vigorously around the stage while also belting out a tune to an audience of 30,000 some time!
no offense but I don't see how it is useful to denigrate entertainers like Gaga or Alice Cooper. if you don't like their stuff don't buy it.
JMO...
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...I fully agree, but 90% of the time a person is PLAYING those keyboards, and the midi is triggering the sounds that the musician is inputting in real time...
I can easily Record to MIDI data the live performance and have a permanent record of that which will play back *identical* to the live performance.
Is the problem then one of whether or not there is a human being present and playing in realtime?
If that performance were to be played over the radio or as an underscore for a motion picture, would you really be able to tell?
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And when it is being used to generate a backing track is a FULL band setting there are enough live musicians to cover it. By default the live musicians make the midi "breath" some, due to the human element that is playing over top of the midi. It is not the same in a solo or duo setting IMHO.
Pianos, Clavinets, Rhodes pianos, Wurlitzer Electric Pianos, Vibes, Marimbas, Xylophones, Harpsichords, Organs, in other words using keyboard to emulate existing keyboards or mallet instruments, which is done ALL the time in commercial recordings and has been done for quite some time, there are virtually no differences that can be heard provided the player of same knows how to play them.
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My comment was about using midi backing tracks to perform over, just letting them play while folks strum or sing over the top of them. In that situation midi is not something that will make me want to sit thru 4 hours of a show.
I don't view that as a fault of MIDI itself. That's just a poor performer in poor performance in my view.
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Your demo of Peg for the SD2 is one of the RARE exceptions to the stiff sounding Midi that folks are use to, but truth be told I have never heard a solo-duo OMB that had that level of quality all night...and even with the great sounds of the SD2, it still sound's "synthetic"....but WAY more bearable than most out there.
Thanks. I strive to get that in ALL of my MIDI stuff. So do many other MIDIOTS. From that one example you surely can see that realism, give or take, the excitement of music, dynamics, phrasing, timing, etc. is not a fault of the medium itself. The real reason people are prejudiced against MIDI is because they likely only have the reference of free downloaded MIDI files made by people of all stripes. Those people are not working in Hollywood, they are not selling underscores or jingles or industrial musics or commercials or hit songs, where MIDI is used quite a bit and for good reason. And, in the right hands, it sounds what you designate as "real".
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At the end of the day it boils down to how you want to spend your money, listening to an artist/duo + midi, listening to an artist/duo + Real Tracks, or listening to an artist/duo + studio musicians from their release playing in the background....we will take the last 2 any day. Of course there is also the choice of listening to an artist/duo raw with NO backing tracks at all, which is totally acceptable!
I look for Strong Performance. The tools don't matter. If they can turn in Strong Performance beating on trashcans, fine with me.
But another performance might be rather poor using those same trashcans.
I don't blame the trashcans for that.
Your problem is not with MIDI itself. Your problem has to do with poor performance on MIDI stuff.
I hear plenty of poor performances with the ubiquitous flattop acoustic guitar.
I don't blame the guitars for that.
--Mac
You're listening to the wrong acts JCS and it's like Mac said, you can't judge midi from listening to some schlep playing a pos freebie downloaded midi file through a $50 synth.
I drove to Vegas last year on business and at night checked out a few places. A lot of the lounge acts on the Strip are using tracks and that was the reason for the big musicians union strike about 25 years ago. The big casinos started phasing out the pit orchestras in favor of a few players running the midi tracks. Needless to say the union lost and the reason was those tracks are absolutely first class, the orchestra was not part of the show they're in the pit so it might as well be recorded, and the audience could care less, they're watching the stage. The performers are basically singing to a music video. Nobody's actually playing anything live in a music video either.
I deliberatly wanted to get off the Strip and check out some other places so I went to a big beautiful Marriott hotel resort casino about 10 miles west. The really sad thing there was they had a single guitarist playing in the big open air bar that is sitting right in the middle of everything. This guy was terrible plus there was no stage, no lights and no sound system. It literally was exactly the same as countless little bars around here with a stumming guitarist setting up with a little PA doing a single. This guy was using some kind of simple midi file player and the midis were crap, the sound was crap and his voice was barely acceptable. Somebody there actually had to book this guy, what were they thinking? Years ago you had to submit a nice promo package to your agent, they might actually fly in to see you live and then you might get a gig in Vegas. I still can't get over the fact I would see something like that in a Vegas casino. Someone mentioned to me that once you get off the Strip Vegas truly sucks. From watching that guy for 5 minutes I can believe it.
Bob
Mario,
IMHO the toughest gigs in the marketplace are weddings. Like you we did them back then when I worked with a full band but now my business cards state the following: Music for "Almost" any occassion . . . I do not play weddings.
Later,
We all sucked at one time. As we age we will all suck again. Are you going to give up playing? I doubt it. Be gentle to the folks that are just trying to have fun or trying to do their best to make an extra buck for there family.
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Pat,
I wish you luck with your music business. You are in an area with a lot of possible venues, so you should do well.
Having said that, I must disagree with this statement: "The gear required to be a band, solo act, DJ, karaoke act is 90% the same."
A single act can usually get away with a very small PA, maybe even a single powered speaker and a small mixer, a mic and a stand, or one of the Bose systems. A DJ, on the other hand, is going to need a lot more thump, which would include two larger mains and a pair of subs, and the amps to drive them. Powered speakers or power amps? Bi-amped? Going to need a Driverack? Rack for rackmount gear? Big difference in cost and size. Another consideration is the venues you expect to play. Small, large, indoors or outdoors? These each have their own challenges audio-wise. A system that is adequate in a restaurant may be totally worthless on an outdoor stage.
This is good advice... part of the reason I want to spread out is because I have so much gear that it exceeds what I would need for any one type of venue. I bought my PA from a DJ who was moving. It has thump if I need it.
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If you plan to cover so many bases (single, DJ, Karaoke) you are probably going to need two systems - one small and one killer thumper. You aren't going to carry a pair of subs in your car along with mains, amp rack, guitars, etc.. Now you're into a trailer, and all the associated costs that go with it.
I have a truck with an enclosed/lockable bed for hauling gear. The people I am hooked up with for providing a full band do have a trailer with everything imaginable in it. If there was ever an outdoor gig, it would most likely be with the whole band.
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I'm not trying to throw cold water on your plans. Just saying that you might want to start small and go from there. You might find that you can get all the restaurant work you can handle as a single, and drive to gigs in your car.
I agree completely!. One thing at a time, see how it goes. If I can keep it simple and make some money, that would definitely be the way to go. But if I find myself losing out to DJs, I am not above fighting fire with fire. Gotta adapt!
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You say that you want to do this as a business - then you might want to keep detailed records of your expenditures: equipment, gas, vehicle maintenance, etc. so you can figure out your ROI. It also helps to keep a "book" containing every contact you make, manager's name and number, every gig you play, and to keep track of future bookings.
I know that advice is cheap, and I don't want to meddle, but having done this for a long time, there are mistakes I've made that I would hope you could avoid.
excellent words of wisdom! Thanks!
Regarding ROI... most of the investment has already been made. What remains to be seen is the return part.
"If that performance were to be played over the radio or as an underscore for a motion picture, would you really be able to tell?"
But I am not talking about a recording that you hear on the radio, in a movie, or as "muzak" in the mall, I am talking about paying to see a live act that uses midi as their band. Studio editing is a everyday thing, tune the vocal, cut & paste the 3rd chorus to the first because it's better, lock the drummer to the grid, etc...all part of today's studio experience.
So spending a few days making a midi track sound great is in the job description by default really.
"Your problem is not with MIDI itself. Your problem has to do with poor performance on MIDI stuff. "
100% correct, and that is all that matters when someone is asking I pay a cover charge + 2 drink min for the pleasure of listening to them. I would rather hear a bad solo act giving it 100% for 4 hours than a great duo with crappy backing tracks, at least the one that stinks is making an effort, where the ones using the bad midi don't care enough to do it right, or they might not even know the difference....
But if a Real Track style fits the tune, the only way it can sound bad is if they either....
1. Stretch it beyond where it should be, or...
2. Don't enter the correct chords.
Bottom line, I just don't spend my $$ where it stinks is all!
And sorry for the derail Joe V, this is FAR from your OP. I will bow out now....
I've paid to see many great live acts where MIDI keyboards, even MIDI pickups on guitars were part of the act. They sounded great. Earth, Wind and Fire is one such example, the "new" outfit that's been going around. While I think that the old lineup did the singing a bit more to my liking, the use of the wireless guitar jack and a guitar tech hidden away sending MIDI amp/cab/effects at just the right moments let the guitarist be free to just play and dance. The keyboards? M-Audio 88 key pro controllers, could not see any of the great MIDI patches heard on the stage at all, presumably again there was at least one keyboard technician backstage, maybe not. BUT -- covering all their great old songs and having the exact right sounding keyboard patch when needed sounded great. To my ears, anyway.
Local bars, 'nuther story anyway. That scene needs to die the death it is creating for itself and that's not a fault of MIDI at all. I've seen a few rather poor performances going on in the local venues with not a single MIDI anything involved. And, yes, I've witnessed the mess when there's the one performer with the usual guitar and the MIDI files likely downloaded for free from the Internet and played back on everything from pocket sized mp3 players to laptops loaded with sequences. Believe me, the MIDI files are only one part of their problem. The fact that they can't hear how bad they sound should speak volumes for how little they know about the craft, but typically their playing and singing abilities say it all, whether they used MIDI or not wouldn't help.
Maybe you should find out how much money they're not making.
--Mac
Back on topic, more or less, there's a venue near me where there is a stage. It is a restaurant. So I inquired of the young lady who manages the place.
She told me that an act has to be able to guarantee her that it will bring at least 40 people, customers, with it before she will book.
I told her that my band is what attracts customers to her venue, that she had it the other way around.
Of course, she sat there telling about the last two bands bringing in their 40 people each, turns out one band consists of four young lawyers and they brought their wives and employees to what turned out to be one of their TWO gigs per year.
I tried to remain polite, left the promo package and smiled, told her that if she ever wanted real entertainment to feel free to call.
Performing in local venues, the paradigm has changed. Not so much about the actual performance quality itself anymore.
Today, such is someone's hobby.
There are other venues to pursue.
--Mac
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I hear plenty of poor performances with the ubiquitous flattop acoustic guitar.
I don't blame the guitars for that.
Mac, I have to say you offer lots of great advice and insights on these forums. And this is one of those points. I had not really thought of it this way and probably should give midi more consideration than I have! Thanks!
Mac, maybe 2 years ago at the jazz gig we used to have at the beach we were talking to another club owner who was there about a possible booking. All he asked for was our website with links to our social media pages like Facebook, Soundcloud, Twitter and the like. Of course we're a bunch of old farts and don't have any of that. Since he was there listening to us already wasn't that enough? No. We offered to get him a CD for his manager to hear and he just laughed, it was obvious we just dropped our pants. It was like what's a CD? What he does is simply check out how many "friends" the band has. He expects to see several hundred knowing that any given night maybe 10-20% will show up. He did say he really liked us though. Right.
Bob
Bob,
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maybe 2 years ago at the jazz gig we used to have at the beach we were talking to another club owner who was there about a possible booking. All he asked for was our website with links to our social media pages like Facebook, Soundcloud, Twitter and the like. Of course we're a bunch of old farts and don't have any of that. Since he was there listening to us already wasn't that enough? No. We offered to get him a CD for his manager to hear and he just laughed, it was obvious we just dropped our pants. It was like what's a CD? What he does is simply check out how many "friends" the band has. He expects to see several hundred knowing that any given night maybe 10-20% will show up. He did say he really liked us though. Right.
Bob
Based on that comment and a few hundred other comments on this forum over the past 2 or 3 years, it sounds like the status or level of respect that was previously accorded to “musicians” has dropped a few hundred notches’.
If we just take into account the conversations we’ve had on the “Off Topic” forum about what constitutes a “musician” and the willingness of so many forum members to call people “musicians” when they can’t even play an instrument, is it any wonder that the general public devalues people that actually have the ability to play “live” music without electronic aids?
I took a lot of flak on here for suggesting that only people who can play traditionally recognized instruments that don’t require electricity deserve to be called “musicians”. (Aka wood and strings, … brass and wind). I was out voted.
Since the musicians on this forum have willingly devalued actual “musicians”, why should we be so surprised that the general public has done the same?
Just some food for thought.
I'm no fan of facebook, but I understand where people like the guy Jazzmammal encountered are coming from.
Shakers and movers are often of the opinion that it is publicity that makes you a star, not talent. They've proven it by giving air time to people who are marginally talented, but whose message matches what they want the world to hear... and the person gets well known.
But it costs them money to do the PR. What they're looking for now is the act that has already done the PR and already has a following that will benefit them at little or no risk
And why not? There's an abundance of acts knocking themselves out for just a little opportunity and recognition. Why would they not pick cherries?
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If we just take into account the conversations we’ve had on the “Off Topic” forum about what constitutes a “musician” and the willingness of so many forum members to call people “musicians” when they can’t even play an instrument, is it any wonder that the general public devalues people that actually have the ability to play “live” music without electronic aids?
I imagine early man saying that people who hunt with guns aren't real hunters. REAL hunting involves the skill of getting close enough to score it with a knife or bow. And certainly, that would take some different skills. The gun hunter forced into the bow hunter paradigm might not do as well, but the same is true in the other direction.
This gets back to my definition of talent/skill being the ability to do something that can't be duplicated easily. As possibilities expand, people tend to develop expertise in ever-widening directions.
What makes a purist different from other thinkers is that purists usually reduce the definition of something to one very specific application... such as, only one who plays acoustic instruments is a musician. Free thinkers on the other hand, don't deny the specific application... but they also look for ways to expand a paradigm into new territory.
The Blue Man group fascinates me. They play nothing in a traditional way, but their performances combine sight, sound and theatrics into a presentation that is far more interesting to me than watching a guy play an acoustic guitar for two hours.
Each person gets to decide for him/herself what entertainment means.
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...I took a lot of flak on here for suggesting that only people who can play traditionally recognized instruments that don’t require electricity deserve to be called “musicians”. (Aka wood and strings, … brass and wind). I was out voted.
Since the musicians on this forum have willingly devalued actual “musicians”, why should we be so surprised that the general public has done the same?
Just some food for thought.
I can't speak for the line about devaluing actual "musicians" for I value musicians (don't need the quotes, either). Perhaps the definition of what constitutes a musician appears to be in jeopardy, a conversation for another day. Do not overlook that fact that Realtracks, Live MIDI tracks and MIDI Supertracks are recorded by real musicians, top notch, who are compensated for the task.
Well, right now I'm thinking how close-minded such a blanket statement seems.
I remember a time when, for example, Bluegrass players would not allow a single amplified instrument onstage with them. Not even a Fenderbass (that's what we used to call the electric bass, regardless of mfr.) was allowed onstage, even if no acoustic bass was within miles of the place.
These close minded performers also seemed to go out of their way to say derogatory things about any amplified stringed instrument. I know BobC surely knows about this situation.
Well, that generation got older, retired, died, whatever, and a younger generation, more apt to accept *change* came along and the result was a big shot in the arm for the Bluegrass genre in general. While there are still limitations there concerning certain amplified instruments (don't show up with a plank guitar and pickups) there have been quite a few interesting developments in the genre simply due to the acceptance of, say, an electric bass player. These same younger generation Bluegrassers also began to unabashedly record covers of Rock, Pop and Commercial Folk Music songs, but still paying tribute to the roots of the bluegrass ethic.
To say that simply because a certain musical instrument player is not a musician simply because their instrument uses or requires electricity in order to be played exhibits a prejudice of the highest order, my man.
You mention horns as being somehow more "legitimate" up there.
Does that include Saxophones?
Well, the Saxophone was invented by Adolph Sax sometime in the late 1800s.
There followed more than one hundred YEARS of prejudiced musicians, music profs, students, aficionados of orchestral classical musics, etc. who spent an inordinate amount of their time talking and writing about how BAD Mr. Sax's invention was and why it was not to be considered a "real" instrument.
Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Sonny Stitt, John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Cannonball Adderley, Wayne Shorter, Stanley Turrentine, Grover Washington Jr., Dexter Gordon, Benny Carter, Jerry Mulligan, Michael Brecker, Stan Getz, Ornette Coleman, and possibly hundreds if not thousands more great musicians didn't get that memo.
As for electricity and musical instruments, the list of virtuosos who have had to plug something into the AC outlet in order to utilize their instruments is legion.
Again, it is the same issue as I've put forth concerning MIDI.
It ain't the type of musical instrument, the problem you have likely has a lot more to do with hearing people who have not put the time to good use, have not done what it takes to practice properly and have not bothered to go for Strong Performance.
I live amongst a generation that doesn't seem able to look inwards at themselves too much, a generation that typically blames *INANIMATE OBJECTS* for problems found, but never the human being for simply operating that object in a wrong fashion.
--Mac
Mac,
Poor wording on my part caused you to totally misunderstand my point, especially about the “electricity” part. I actually wasn’t including electric instruments such as guitars, keyboards, etc.
I was simply trying to draw a distinction between playing a musical instrument as opposed to simply punching buttons on a rhythm machine, computer or other electronic device.
Some folks are willing to put the people who have their music electronically created for them by devices into the same category as people who can play actual musical instruments. I'm not one of those folks.
That was what I was referencing when I mentioned "devaluing musicians".
Well, even considering that aspect, I've found that there are DeeJays and there are DeeJays.
Some of the youngsters seem to exhibit a lot more talent at the game than others, just like when Guitar Playing is the objective.
Have enjoyed a local CoolJazz ensemble that mixes it up with Drums, Bass, E Guitars, Sax, Singer, Percussionist - and a DJ who does the record scratching thing along with sampling and must say that their act works well.
This kid is doing a lot more than just pushing buttons. Changing vinyl, finding the exact spot on the recording desired, cueing it up in earphones and then placing it n just the exact spot of the performance kept me watching to see what neat little thing he'd come up with next.
I also had a bit of fun with it, as he was sometimes cueing bits off of old jazz records that I thought I really knew from listening and practicing, but had never really heard perhaps but one note or phrase taken out of context like that. Miles. Trane. Diz. etc.
These kids are working up their THING, and while it may not be my cuppa tea exactly, I recognize good if not strong performance. And if they keep at it, that good may just end up being strong.
When confronted by musicians from my age group knocking that which a younger generation is doing with music, I like to think back to my Dad's viewpoint about the guitar, be it acoustic or electric. He always told me to stick with the "real" instruments I already was learning to play, the Trumpet and the Piano. No matter how many billions of dollars people made with guitars, he was adamant that the guitar was merely going to prove to be a passing "fad". He took that and other prejudicial notions to his grave. I've tried to not fall prey to such illogical perceptions. With varying degrees of success.
--Mac
Mac,
I never said that being a DJ or using computers or other devices to create music doesn’t take skills. We both know it does.
I just don’t consider them musicians unless they can play an instrument.
We’ve had that debate on here before so there’s no need to have it again. I’m in the minority on this and that’s okay. It’s just opinions.
I don't know if the kid I referenced who was doing that impressive DJ work is a "musician" or not. He may be. He might play a mean guitar. Or he might not.
Bear in mind my other references, though.
There were people I knew in my life who still had not accepted the saxophone as being a "legitimate" instrument, ditto the guitar. They, too, refused to append the "musician" term onto great musicians who played those two instruments.
Those folks are for the most part, gone to glory.
The two instruments - and the musicians who play them plus the audiences who enjoy hearing and viewing them being played, are still here.
Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about,
--Mac
Mac,
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Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about
If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Just sayin'.
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If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Yes it would Bob but not immediately. You first join a union as an apprentice, go to all the union schools, accumulate so many hours of ojt, THEN after several years of this you're a journeyman welder.
The point is that kid doing the scratching is very talented with good ears and good rhythm. You could think of it like a Talking Drum like the tympani player who hits it and then grabs the tuning handle so the drum gives you that long Booooooiiiiinnnngggg rising sound you hear occasionally. Is that orchestra percussionist a musician? S/he certainly is.
That sort of thing is why I keep gravitating towards Abelton Live. Trying to get past all the warbling screeching stuff in order to figure out what that program can do is certainly difficult for me but still that program is pretty cool. Same thing with loopers that someone mentioned. I've watched some videos of champion loopers, (yes grandpa, they have very large regional and national looping contests, where have you been?)and I really like the concept of that. The reason is an audience can tell you're not simply playing to tracks, you're creating the whole thing live, from nothing, right in front of them. That's the definition of a good show and I think it's great. It's just that what they're looping is not my thing but still it's a good show. I'm pretty sure with the right software I could create all the different backing tracks for a song like Green Dolphin Street or something live, on stage, and when I'm done and it's all smoking along then play the head and solo my butt off. I think that would go over pretty good because then the audience can see exactly what I'm putting into it. Will I ever actually do that in some club? Probably not but I may just set that up at home and if I do I'll have a friend come over and video it and I'll put it up on Youtube. Just for fun.
Anyway, these kids have plenty of talent, just as much as our generation does, it's just in a different direction and it's very hard for us to grasp it. You really have to get out more, not physically but on the internet, do some serious Youtube surfing, you'll find some very interesting stuff but yeah, you get to wade through a lot of crap too.
Damn, I sound like I'm preaching again, sorry about that. It's just that for me at least I cannot sit in my own insular little musical world and vegetate over the past. I'm sort of like Miles Davis when he suddenly quit his classic straight ahead jazz stuff and came out with Bitches Brew and did a complete 180 into some pretty far out stuff. He was asked many times to go back to his classic style at least for one tour but he basically said no, he's said all he can say in that genre and it's time to move on. You do that and you wind up being your own cover band. Not that that's a bad thing monetarily mind you but it certainly is artistically.
Bob
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If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Just sayin'.
Actually, you've got it backwards. One must first prove their ability on the job as a welder in order to be considered for membership. Apprenticeship and all that counts, as do certain certified welding schools. There is also the various underwriter's tests, such as the old Hartford License for pipe welders, in which they must demonstrate certain abilities by performing actual welds which are then proof tested by pulling those welds apart with machines. Every part of the pipe can break but your weld areas.
Years back, joining the Musician's Local also came with an audition, plus recommendations from other working musicians. That's sadly all but gone now, although there are still the character recommendations.
--Mac
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Mac,
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Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about
If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Just sayin'.
I'm laughing out loud here.. this is a great discussion between two real thinkers! Hats off to both of you!
Oddly enough, I agree with both of you, depending on how I define musician. If you make the word synonymous with "instrumentalist", then I agree with Bob.
On the other hand if you make the word synonymous with the phrase "One who makes music" then I agree with Mac.
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You do that and you wind up being your own cover band. Not that that's a bad thing monetarily mind you but it certainly is artistically.
Bob
very profound observation, Bob
I'll throw one more constraint into the definition of a musician:
I play several instruments, some acoustic, some electric, some software, some hardware... but I don't consider myself to be a musician because I play by ear.
When people ask if I'm a musician I typically say "No, I'm just a guitar player..."
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It ain't the type of musical instrument, the problem you have likely has a lot more to do with hearing people who have not put the time to good use, have not done what it takes to practice properly and have not bothered to go for Strong Performance.
I live amongst a generation that doesn't seem able to look inwards at themselves too much, a generation that typically blames *INANIMATE OBJECTS* for problems found, but never the human being for simply operating that object in a wrong fashion.
If you can not control what you are using, then it does not matter what it is, it sounds like garbage. And in this situation, I have NEVER heard a solo or duo that uses midi backing track sound close to real, ever...
As for "great thinkers"....strong opinions is more like it! And that is the generation that I live in....little faces & all
Studying history, I find that many Great Thinkers have also held Strong Opinions.
To me, that only indicates a Passion for a subject.
--Mac
"And in this situation, I have NEVER heard a solo or duo that uses midi backing track sound close to real, ever..."
You got to get out more, man.
Last night I went gig-hopping, checking out the local live music scene. One restaurant had a two man act (no trax). They both played acoustic guitar, both played the same chords with capo on the same fret
(they didn't even go for the variation they could have had by playing the same chords in different positions! )
The thought occurred to me that the business owner could have saved money without sacrificing quality if he had only hired one of them and made him play beside a mirror.
As usual... with two acoustic guitars and no other tricks up their sleeve, three songs into the set I'd heard everything they were going to do.
The next club had a funk band, and they were really tight, with a lot of original songs having complex passages where they all played long sequential harmonies in perfect but weird timing. But the couple I was with turned to me and said the same thing I was thinking: "If only they had horns!"
Based on the number of people present and the cover charge I paid to get in, I doubt they collected enough to pay the 4 piece, let alone a 7 piece with horns. So here's a case when I would have loved some tracks in the background.
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You got to get out more, man.
So true!
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The thought occurred to me that the business owner could have saved money without sacrificing quality if he had only hired one of them and made him play beside a mirror.
I did this once, the club owner told me I was "twice" as bad. Rim Shot!
Later,
I'll bet you were beside yourself when you heard that.
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I'll bet you were beside yourself when you heard that.
hahahaha!
"Y'all ain't right"
(that's a compliment)