Hi Mac

If anybody could do this you could although i think that video`s are the way to go,how do you decide which way to go because nearly everybody wants to go in different directions,i belive that only a small amount of musicians read manuals anyway so will they read Biab for Dummies i don`t think so

I purchased Traction 3 and because every thing you read is how easy and simple this program is, i would not read the manual and try to get to grips just by useing, there is one part i can not do and i can`t begin to find out how so i can`t progress untill i fathom out how to do it,it came out last summer and i have given up and i am going to buy a Sva video to help me get to grips with it,

anyway if you did decide good luck,you really need two people to do this, you that knows Biab inside out and someone who knows nothing to show you what is needed

best wishes Dave Hoskins

Videos are great as well, but it seems to be more memorie friendly if I find it in a manual, then have to read it step by step as I perform the task. My experience as a corporate trainer has proven that for most people, the hands on and looking up the info is the best learning process.

Which is kind of a odd thing since 60% of people claim to learn more by visual stimulation as compared to only 15% who learn better by audio. In most cases it's because human nature is lazy at best, and we hate to look things up for ourselves. Which is why the Dummie books sold and still sell so well. Somebody looked it up for me and showed me how to do it.

Videos are visual, so is reading and looking at diagrams, with the videos you also usually get audo. But by far, still the best is hands on after looking for the answer.

toucher

What about a series that consists of serialized written manual PLUS some screenshot videos?

That seems to me the best approach, read about it, watch it happen sort of thing.

The "serialization" method would not only allow for bite-sized chunks, allowing someone to just grab a certain portion that they wish to get into, but it also would help me out in the sense that BIAB keeps adding all those "more than 50 new features" every year. It would be a real killer to try to keep up with Peter all in one book, that has been the reason I've put this off in the first place. But with a serialized or more exactly, a sectionalized approach, perhaps something can be accomplished.

If I need a beta test, or more properly an editing forum, I've got my own server space for that, no need to chew up pgmusic resources.

I've started my own list of subjects.

What are some specifics that some of you might like to see covered?

Try to keep it centralized as to the requests if at all possible please.

Ex:

"How to take a song from mp3/CD to BIAB arrangement"

"How to create your own custom style from a good MIDI arrangement"

"How to make your BIAB songs sound more realistic"

"Troubleshooting the BIAB PC"

"How to make use of all those BIAB global preference settings"

"Using BIAB in live performance"

etc.


--Mac

That's a great approach, Mac ... indiviual "chapters", separated ... available by specific topic. Like the video idea as well. And what you said aboout "keeping up with Peter" - didn't think about that. You're so right about that!

Good thinking!!!

Cheers,
Mike

Awesome Mac,
how about "how to get started" for complete dummies like me, something simple but practical. Something that gets some results quickly without the theory, like the first three chords in guitar playing. You haven't a clue what they're called, but you can sing along with about half of popular music. I'd look forward to anything that helps me get into this programm.

Mac...
I'll buy the series. I think it's a great idea.
It's also a win-win-win. (You, PGMusic & the reader)

Mick

Mac, I'd say you are on exactly the right track. My inclination would be to start at the beginning for the complete newbie. Just like in the Dummie books. I know so of the more advanced users are thinking wow It'll be years before they get to the really juicy stuff, but by implementing an approach of variations it could serve everyone.

1. This is how to enter chords: Step by step instruction, maybe a scree shot or two, then explain using the chords with shots, holds, etc. Things like C. or C.., C,F,

2. opening midis, the melody track situation, copying tracks, The basic things that most newbies don't even think of. That would give them a jump start, and keep some of the more advanced users entained as well hopefully.

File size could be an issue if there are too many videos, but I think a few videos would enhance the learning experience quite nicely.

toucher

I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

And if you need "proofing" help, I volunteer.

I certainly qualify as a BiaB Dummy.

Great Idea from a self confessed "Dummy".

Ya know I bet most of the book is already written....

Get 5 or 10 people to go thru all of your past posts here, and weed out all the relevant & most asked answers that apply to the program, and then compile that into an outline of sorts....it seems to me that a lot of the writing is already done....

Only this dumb forumboard search is broken -- or possibly intentionally truncated to save server space, dunno, but you can't find many posts from more than a few months back, much less last year.


--Mac

Mac makes a good point as usual about the forum. I can normally remember posts I have read for several years, at least enough about them to remember that we talked about a particular subject. However, I can't prove that, since the older posts are no longer available. I used to be able to answer questions by referring someone to an older post, but I don't even try to do that now unless the post is very recent. The "book" everyone is requesting was probably almost 'written' once. Much of what people need to know was once in the forum posts, so it could have been assembled in part by good arranging and editing.

However, even though I used to keep a small library of common answers I had written so I could drop them into a post easily, I find that the nature of questions now has changed enough that my tiny library isn't current. The largest obstacle to writing a good Dummies book on Band-in-a-Box might be that PG Music invents new features so quickly, it would be difficult to keep up with them! Of course, that's a nice problem to have.

In the meantime, the faq on the PG site will give plenty of questions to start with. It is logical to assume that most people check there first to get their answers, but having done that myself, I can testify that the answers seem to assume that you know more about the program, than a novice would know.

While helpful, they don't and probably can't provide enough step by step detail to get a dummy moving and grooving. The faqs are a great tool, but they do require some wading thru a lot of information, and some basic knowledge of midi terminology. So maybe a preliminary tutorial listing the terms and definitions. Terms like Patch, CC, Program Change, Event. Some people do not even know what to look for when trying to solve a problem.

toucher

With no disrespect meant: I find the currently available videos for BIAB so tedious and slow to get to the meat of the matter they are almost unbearable.
The pdf help manual is more helpfull to me overall.

A BIAB for dummies would be great however. The manuals for Reaper published by LULU are relatively inexpensive and thorough. Spiral bound and the print quality is good. The mixing manual and the Using Reaper were 360 pages and at the time cost $12.95. I believe their prices have gone up recently .

Another option might be an online Wiki with user submitted input. Mac would be an excellent caretake imho.

Here a link to the Reaper Wiki.
http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/Reaper_Documentation

I like that Reaper WIKI. Good suggestion.

The post that always makes me go AGH!:

"What's the best _________?" (soundcard, mixer, pc, laptop, microphone, MIDI synth, left-handed fishing pole, you-name-it)


Um, best for what purpose?



--Mac

Some peoples lives are "just too important" to bother with figuring it out for themselves. In this age of "instant self gratification" they figure they are owed..

My favorite type of posts are they that threaten to go to another software ..."if I can't get this going I guess I will go to XX since it works there"... to which I say "Goodbye".....or "I just have a quick question", which could have been answered faster if they would have typed it into the search box!

A few years back I noticed a rash of "I don't have the time to look for this....how do I..." and my pat answer was "Sorry, I don't have time to answer..." Rude, maybe, but not as rude as expecting folks to jump because you think YOUR life is so important...

Sorry...rant off....

This concept sounds like a great idea to me. There are a few websites which play music that I care about and they have a PayPal 'Donate' button to help defer the time and expense of maintaining the site. The listener pushes the button and uses their PayPal account to make a donation.

I certainly wouldn't be adverse to chipping in some bucks to Mac in order for him to began work on a project like this. It could be in PDF or Word format for all I care, although I imagine it would need the blessing of the PG staff, et al.

With the text and some selected screen shots, I believe that the project would have a lot of value. Posting the drafts somewhere for proofing by the old timers on this forum would work also. Contributions from those that have advanced specific experience could also be a benefit.

So I say, "Why not try it?" No doubt it would become a difficult and time-consuming enterprise, but it would have a lot of value for a lot of folks.

My contribution, aside from any money, would be as the 'dummy' asking stupid questions...

If this ever gets off the ground, add my name to those volunteering to proof read. FWIW, I am a language professional (translator).

Marc

Moé la, ché acune problème pantout de donne un coup de main a faire une version en joual icitte, spas difficelle eh, car if fait frette ben trop lhiver et y a rien daut a faire mesque y a 6 pieds de neige et la pitoune est frezee jusqa le printemps...

Dang! J.C. speaks every UK and Canadian dialect, and now frog!

Must be interesting to have all of those words swimming around in your head...

I love to see the reaction if you called my wife or kids frogs. I got WAY thicker skin than the bunch of them. In case you want to say it to her mother, use grenouille.\\

Anyway, Canada, being isolated from France very early, still speak the way Rablais wrote. Took me about 2 years to change from book french to backwoods Québecoise.

General Montcalm camped on what is now my property in Lake George, NY. If he had been just a bit more successful, we would be speaking French in this country now.

I still think the frog remark should be retracted. Perhaps I speak the Queen's English, and several French dialects, but the whole forum would erupt if you used derogatory adjectives or nouns against Italians, African Americans, etc. I have no objection to Canuck, but I view frog as the equivalent of the N word no one utters anymore. French Canada is a rich and diverse society, different in so many aspects that I do not suggest you will understand it. I at least have a multi layered ethnographic view of French Canada, from Ontario to most areas of Quebec. In the spirit of Monday, Louis Riel day in Manitoba, I suggest that the person calling people frogs, should rethink the personal attack and return to some sort of civil behaviour.

John,
Pardon my ignorance, but is "Canuck" a derogotory term? (NOI - I just don't know)

I think of it as a contraction...and you can call me that. But my wife, who is French Canadian, would just about claw out yer eyes if you called her a frog. And my daughter would treat you worse than that.. she is so proud of her heritage you would not want to cross her....

A lot of misinformation about French people is propogated. Check sometime how many French people were killed in wars. Popular culture suggests they ran away and were cowards. Just count the casualties. French people in Canada are so unlike English people that it is impossible for many to understand.

At the end of the day, do not call my wife, and my kids, and my in-laws, frogs. That is wrong.

Oh, and in someplaces we still call yanks, longknives. That is from the swords the officers wore which astounded the amerindians.

Hmmmm...just wondering how many times I've been called a "gringo" here in Texas, and a "Yank" by folks in the UK...both of those terms are used pretty frequently, but I have learned to take them in stride. Note also that I didn't call anyone a "Frog" just the language. I speak Tex-Mex and Texican myself sometimes, as I live here and try to communicate.

Nevertheless, since it was my intention to be humorous rather than insulting, I regret any perceived insult, as that was never my intention.

I hope this rather thin-skinned approach to stuff on this forum is not a trend...in any event, I'll just restrain myself in the future in order not to offend anyone.

If that's not sufficient, a warrant can be obtained and served by the PC Police I suppose...

Didn't the whole thing start as a reference to who invented SCUBA diving and the term, "frogman"?

Recognition of invention?

Cousteau et al...


--Mac

Here, the word frog is usually used after the F word. Again, I suggest that you not use it in front of any of my family. Usuages change over the years, and I do not want to discuss the origin of the word, I was making a point about something that may not be in your realm of experience.

There resides, at the local university, documents relating to my families post office, located at the end of the underground railroad. The main letter is written by a boy of 14 who told his cousin that they have the best postman his dad ever met working for them, and he has a nice bike and he is a N (word), and everyone loves this man, he is kind, gentle, and always smiling. Along with the letter are the daily notes from the family sawmill, dated 1850 or so, and it great fun to see how the mill made 500 board feet of oak plank for this church or that store, or for the construction of an office. The family had the sawmill, but then moved it on a train in 1897 to New Liskeard, due to the lack of good trees in the area north of Chatham. The assumption, of my son who is finishing his Phd in anthro this year, is that the N word was not considered derogatory in Canada in the early 1800s, but we would never use it now.....

There is also a description of using dynamite to split oak logs that were way to big to run through the saws. That to me is a great image...

Education is an on going process. I know little about the word Yanks. We are working on a tune ...Heres your Mule Gallop...in one of my bands and it says NC Regiment on it and seems to be dated to the Civil War era.....Dr. Hank the director says it was one of the most played numbers if Civil War recreation bands that he has lead over the last 30 years.....but was it a Northern Tune or Southern tune.

Like the Irish side of my family, they sing A Cushla Mine for Danny Boy, the Danny Boy thing was considered Catholic, like the wife. The priest would not let us marry in the church so we had a party at a nice hotel and did the deed there.

Takes a thick skin to live in this world, doesn't it?

Perhaps, but put yourself in another era, escaped, came to Canada, got a job as a postman, ride you bike, and everyone thinks you are great. 1849 I think. I would never suggest that there was not some form of discrimination here then, but I loved the sentiment of the boy who wrote about a guy he thought was great, probably had misconceptions based on media, for what it was, but it was ..overcome...

Google West Buxton.....Ontario...

I believe that the term 'Frog', as applied to anything French, came about due to the penchant for Napoleon's army to wear green uniforms. This was back in the day when black powder was used on the battlefield and it became extremely difficult for soldiers to determine who was the enemy and and who was an ally.

I've never heard the phrase "F****** Frog"...I suppose the aliteration gives it more oomph or something.

If the term 'Frog' is a derogatory one, then it must be some sort of national insult, rather than a religious, ethnic, or racial one. I, for one, love the French, as I know that we 'Yanks' wouldn't have won the revolution or had any chance in 1812-1814 without their help. I certainly haven't forgotten that our Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French. In fact, my daughter spent a year in France[on a grant] while in school. She really enjoyed that, and learned a lot. So I was under the impression that 'Frog' was pretty much akin to 'Yank' as far as national slang term was used.

Apparently, many believe that it's a rather unflattering epithet, as it has been used as an insult rather often, it would seem. OK...so be it.

However, there is this: "Again, I suggest that you not use it in front of any of my family. "

That it's interesting statement. I make it a point not to use derogatory ethnic, religious, or racial terms at any time for any reason, so if the term 'Frog' is a hate-word for the people of France, then I will add that to my growing list of off-limits words and phrases. Nevertheless, that particular sentence appears to contain some sort of threat...pray tell, what would happen to any unfortunate, ignorant cretin who make the mistake of uttering the foul word in front of John's family? Would there appear a knife or firearm? Would John's skills in unarmed hand-to-hand combat come quickly into play? Would the individual be stared down and humiliated?

Some of us Americans may have noticed in recent years a growing international trend for the most foul and derogatory words and phrases directed at our own country and government. So far I haven't shot anyone over this, although the desire to do so is very strong. I understand that name-calling shouldn't be the basis of violence, especially extreme violence.

So, summing up a bit: To many, 'Frog' is an insulting country-of-origin word, and should not be used. If any foolish knave were to use it in the company of French folks or Francophiles, they could come under some sort of attack, perhaps even a physical assault. I'll never be able to watch Gene Hackman in 'The French Connection' again without wanting to wash his mouth out with soap. 'First Frog' indeed!

To John C. -- You strike me from your posts here as a very intelligent and remarkably talented individual, who has an extensive and comprehensive education, as well as a wealth of experience. I will stick my already extruded neck out a bit farther and surmise that the education and experience did not come from a wealthy or priviledged background, but rather from a great deal of personal effort on your part. So it is with some humility that I may offer a bit of advice: try to thicken up your emotional epidermis a little. I do appreciate the education on the evil side of 'Frog' , and I will really and truly add it to my off-limits vocabulary. I thank you for that. You might have been a bit more pedantic in the process, and a bit less threatening, but I get the point nevertheless.

Now let us pause for a kumbaya moment..................

The Russian army uniform of the period was green.

The French wore white uniforms with blue or red coats.

My family...hmmm...my daughter,when her grade 10 class was told they were not permitted to carry purses in school proceeded to organize all her friends who spent the day carrying boxes of feminine products under their arms. She was the organizer. When the school informed them they had changed their minds, for I think the males were taken aback by the sight of such unmentionable items on public display. When at an assembly they were told they could once again able to carry purses and backpacks, she stood up and demanded in front of the embarassed administration a letter of apology for the degradation and humiliation, but until the letter was give to all the young women they would continue to carry publicly their products. Those at the assembly told me of the speech and she raised her voice, and pulled no punches. She is a bit more mellow at 18, but if anyone dare insult her, the word pit bull would come to mind.

As for my personal attidue, I was called a frog at work, and every time the channel surfing hit a french tv station the Fn Frog comment came out of some moron's mouth. My usual comment was, who cares what a bigot thinks.

Many theories abound about the origin of the word and it's association with the French people. I know my wife and daughter become emotional about those who the word in their face. My daughter Renée-Marie is a lovely girl, and will make her father happy when she's the last nester to leave. I can then pass the gas that I have to save up, and won't need to worry about a hole in my sock or having to wait until noon on weekends to try and master the piccalo part for Stars and Stripes forever on the tuba....

I always thought the French were referred to as Frogs because they ate frog's legs. There are worse things to be called I imagine, but if it's preceded by f*#§ing, its not going to be meant as a complement anyway.
A little rhyme from way back:
" Sticks and stones may hurt by bones, but words will never harm me."

The Light Infantry Chasseur, Chasseur a Cheval, of the French Army wore a uniform of universal green. Since there was a lot of these guys on the battlefield at any given time[since they were the most cost-effective soldiers] there was a lot of green there. But you are correct Mac: armies of that era had a perplexing number of colorful and distinctive uniforms. The armies of the Republic during the American Civil War displayed a large and interesting variety of uniforms as well. There is far less variety in current military attire..

Well....I'm truly sorry that anyone has to bear the insults of the ignorant and bigoted. It's been an educational experience learning about the drogatory nature of 'Frog', so I will certainly refrain from it's use in the future.

As an interesting side-note, I now consider myself to truly be a 'gringo', and find absolutely no insult in the use of that word to describe me. Most people of Western European desent here in the US southwest wear that label with some comfort and without malice toward the user. When my younger daughter was in Hawaii for a year of mission work she was often referred to as a 'hoale' [howlie] i.e. a white person. She did not find the term too insulting per se, but might have been distressed if the term were prefixed by 'F***ing'. In any event, it appears that intent and context are the culprits in these kinds of labels.

Certainly best to avoid their use completely...

John C. --thanks for the enlightenment on the cultural aspects of that particular word. It appears that ignorance rather than a thick skin is what is at play for me. The uniform explanation is but one of many attempts to pin down the origins of amphibian reference, and others abound.

Just shows we are never too old to learn something important about others.