At what point do you consider someone to have "sold out" in the music industry?

I always need to clarify with this bunch ...I don't mean a "sold out show."

I'd like to pose another question. Is there even such a thing?

There are successful artists, and then, there's all the rest. I think the expression "sell out" is more about the jealousy of the ones who haven't been nearly as successful.

For example, are the crop of country artists, especially the guys classified as "bro country" sellouts or have they found a successful formula and are simply riding the wave and making money like any other good businessman would do regardless of the line of business?

That's my take on the expression "sell out" in referring to a musician, in a nut shell. Obviously more could be said and written but that suffices for now.

Interesting question, as always Caaron!

I think this is directly related to one of the recurring unresolved discussion here on the forum. Are you an original artist? Or a performer?

Usually someone gets called a "sellout" if he/she first cultivates the reputation of an original thinker/ starving artist, then later moves wholeheartedly into the commercial realm of "performer"... because their success allows it.

But some people are wholeheartedly "performers" from the beginning.

At a more grass roots level, (speaking of people like myself, hometown musicians etc) it has been my experience that the people who see themselves as artists who play by their own rules and don't care what the public likes... those people don't tend to gig nearly as much as the people who play to the audience. Is that a sell out? Everybody has to decide that one for him/herself. My personal choice is to play for the audience.

Having said that, however... the rules change at the pro level. At the pro level you have to be commercial to pay for the enormous costs of existing in that world.


And there is another pro group, the people who tend to play at places like Merlefest. There I saw a lot of old musicians who had spent their entire lives playing music that wasn't mainstream. In order to do so, they lived modest lives and basically gigged small spots the whole time. They built their reputation mostly by keeping their name on marquees for 40 years. Most of them are not well off, but they are playing whatever music they like.

I admire this group for their tenacity. In my opinion, they have earned the respect they now get at music festivals. They typically wear blue jeans instead of sequins, and their egos are sometimes on par with those of international stars... the main difference is that they are still approachable. After they perform, they go out in the crowd and watch with everybody else. I think there are a lot of people on this forum who fall in this category.

I don't know if any of this addresses your original question... and I'm not sure there is a universal answer to it. I see it as a highly subjective and largely unnecessary distinction to make

When this comes from a musician, I'd say the term is just sour grapes coming from those who have not had the level of success as those they are criticizing. When it comes from fans it is just a lazy way of saying "I liked your other stuff better so why didn't you keep making that stuff?" But of course, when you stick with your formula, those same fans will be quick to say "your new album sounds too much like your last album!"

If someone plays only what they want to play and refuses to change even when there is the possibility of commercial success then that is fine...for them. On the other hand, if someone is playing their favorite bluegrass and a record guy hears them, is impressed with their technical ability and offers them a chance to record some hip hop and the band decides to go for it because it might get them the break they need, again that is just fine.

There is no "selling out". Only doing what you like for whatever reason you want to do it!

The phrase "sold out" presupposes that there is some sort of integrity in the music business.


I've never known a musician who wouldn't "sell out" if the opportunity presented itself. Musicians are, after all, the worlds Second Oldest Profession.

speaking of which.... when do you plan to return my gold lame' jumpsuit, the one with the sequins on it and rhinestones up the legs..... that you "borrowed" from me.....? And don't tell me you let Floyd borrow it.

My VERY unpopular opinion is that when you perform music that you hate for people that you hate just to make money, and are really sick of playing AT ALL anymore, then you are selling out. Why do you want to do something you hate? Be that something music, plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanic work, street paving, shelf stocking or litigation.... why?

The next comment I expect to hear is "I do it because I love it." Well, then you don't fit the criteria my reply was based on, so keep on doing it. You are not a sell out.

This is the main reason I am quite unpopular with the music community, tempered by the fact that I am rather tactless and tell them how I feel about things in very direct terms.

Now I know what you're saying..... "Tactless? Direct? YOU??"

Survival comes to mind...

I've spent the last 30 years in IT. At first I loved it, getting paid to indulge in my favourite hobby However, over the last 7 or 8 years I've come to hate it, but for a variety of reasons I couldn't just walk away.

Probably the main reason was that I needed to eat, and I really didn't know anything else. Survival, not selling out, just surviving and supporting my wife (kids had grown up and left home - except the "boomerang boy" but he supports himself).

Now, I am out - no job, no passion, no idea for another business and no social security, despite having paid taxes for the last 40 years, running a business that's paid taxes for the last 22 years and hiring staff who also paid taxes for the last 20 years...

International singing star Julio Iglesias has released millon selling records singing songs in Spanish, Italin, French, Portuguese, German and other languages.

He began to sing songs in English after moving to the United States in 1979. To help introduce him to the US market the 1984 album, "1100 Bel Air Place", included duets with Willie Nelson and Diana Ross. The Beach Boys also provided backing vocals on a song. At the time the album caused some media excitement and added to his formiable collection of millon seller hits.

Did Willie, Diana and the Beach Boys sell out? I think they did in this instance as I think their motivation was to help themselves by doing their recording label's bidding. What helps the record label helps me.

On the other hand take other "odd at first thought" pairings such as the Tony Bennent / Lady Gaga collaboration or the Robert Plaint / Alison Krauss. I don't know of any underlying ulterior motive.

And here we go again, comparing major, multi millionaire stars with the guy playing Cheeseburger in Paradise for drunks at the corner bar. What anybody major does is playtime for them. They have more money than they can spend. That is FAR different from scrambling to find a way to gas your car and feed your kids, is it not? Did the Beach Boys really sing behind that guy for the money? Really? The Beach Boys are 237 years old and bored with their millions. Didn't we once do this comparing Joe Corner Bar Musician to Sinatra because Sinatra did "covers" too and didn't write? Really? Sinatra and some local chump go in the same sentence?

Everybody is in a different situation. I really don't care if I ever play live on stage again. That is just me. I don't need the money. I am far from wealthy, but my retirement funding is plenty to live on if I don't make a major purchase. So if I DO ever play again (nice little blues band in rehearsal stage now) it won't be because I have to. It will be because I want to. That is a not so subtle difference. The band will play music we want to play, not songs that we "have" to play because "but the crowd LOVES that song". Because they love that song does not mean they will not like other songs and throw garbage if we don't play Stairway to Freebird. Playing Stairway To Freebird when you hate it is selling out.

I worked in IT as well after I retired from playing music full time. Music got to be a job so I got out of it. IT got to be a job so I got out of it. My "roaming fever" cycle seems to be about 8-10 years. Then the new wears off and I move on to something new. My "roaming fever" cycle for relationships is short, like less than 6 months. I lose interest in it and move on. Staying with a woman who does not make you happy is the relationship version of selling out. Working a job that does not make you happy is selling out. Playing music that does not make you happy is the musical version of selling out. Don't worry, be happy.

It took a near fatal car accident for me to realize that the old cliche about life being too short is not a cliche. I will never spend a day miserable again. I don't want my last day on earth to be miserable. (I may, however, make it miserable for OTHERS... )

I suppose all of the baroque, classical and romantic era composers that were commissioned to compose were also sellouts. Someone up above described sour grapes as the source of the term. I think that's spot on.

Herb, if they hate what they are doing, then yes, they are sellouts. If it's people who spent their whole life taking smack about how country music is nothing but musicians who aren't good enough to play rock, and then they play country music because it's the current money making rage, then yes, they have sold out. When money is your ONLY, and that is key that you notice the word ONLY, motivation for playing to the point that you play music that you despise so much that you don't even like hearing it by accident on the grocery store Muzak feed, you have sold out. Like today, I accidentally got some Stevie Nicks in my ears. Though with that voice like a sheep, she DID make me hungry for lamb....

I give much credit to bands who stick with their dream and play original music for the door. Those are the players who are truly in it for the music. I will go see THAT band before I go see one of those bands that plays the same 45 songs as every other band.

Also know that this is situational, too. As an old man I think differently than I did when I was young. As someone who does not make a living with music, I think differently than those who do. If you love what you are doing, and don't grouse about moving equipment in and out of bars every night, loading in and out of your car, out of your car into your house.... god bless you. When I stopped not grousing about that stuff, that's when music became a job and I didn't like it anymore. To continue past that point, I would have considered myself to be a sellout.

In an earlier post, I made mention of how people can sell out in every aspect of life. When I married the 3rd wife, I did it because she was somewhat of a local celebrity that made a lot of money and had a nice home. She was the meanest human being I have known in a life that will have lasted 64 years in 2 weeks. I took her abuse for 4 1/2 years. Then I realized that I had sold out and didn't like myself. I knew how to fix that, which moved me on to why I now call her ex wife #3. You have to be happy and comfortable in your own skin. I was not.

Usual disclaimer. This is my opinion. You are allowed to have yours just like I am allowed to have mine.

So I wander if in my situation I am a sellout. I am business analyst. I write the specifications for business software. It is a skill that is very much in demand and I can earn more in one day doing this than I can earn in many moons of playing gigs and selling CDs.

It is not something I hate but I would far spend time writing, recording and performing music. Wouldn't it be selfish of me to spend all my time on music, earning next-to-nothing to contribute to the family pot?

It is a quandary indeed.....

I agree with Eddie's view of a sellout.

I played in wedding bands virtually all of my adult life, a weekend warrior. Although there were some songs that I hated to play I did enjoy the gigs. Some people called me a sellout because I played in wedding bands for the money, you can make a lot more money per weekend playing weddings than bars. BUT I did enjoy playing most all of the songs and more importantly making my customers happy.

Like Josie I was making a lot of money in regular job. I was happy in my research job for about 30 of the 39 years of employment so by Eddie's definition I sold out for the last nine years. However I had a family to feed, and a mortgage to pay so I guess I sold out for my family and that to me was more important than music, in fact it still is more important than music.

This is just me and your situations may be different.

Never lend your sequins to somebody who has sold out! They got no class... they got no principles... they can't even think up a word that rhymes

translation: "it's MY gold lame' sequined & rhinestoned jumpsuit now!! Bwa-hahahhaa"

Let this be a lesson to you all.

This is a pretty good summary! especially regarding the business.

But especially in the early days of radio when a lot of music acts started out playing gospel songs, the public probably believed the artists had their own integrity. The term "selling out" may have originated with gospel artists switching over to secular music... (ie. "selling their soul to the devil" for fame and fortune)

I disagree.

Musicians are the the world's FIRST oldest profession.

See? Even THERE I prefer originals....

What is a sell out?

Contracted work?

Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and so many others did work for hire to please their benefactors. George Benson sang some pop songs in the 1970s. Michael Brecker played on Paul Simon songs, Kenny G made a zillion dollars playing sappy ballads (and he played some very good stuff with Lorber's Fusion).

If I hire an artist to paint a portrait of my wife, is the artist a sell out?

Is the person who loves and takes wildlife pictures but makes his/her living doing weddings a sell out?

Define sell out.

I don't believe in the term sell out.

Is playing what your audience wants to hear selling out? If that's the case, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra is a sell out.

I play "Cheeseburger", "Caroline", "Brown Eyed", "Yakety", "Mustang", and other pop songs and enjoy it. I also mix in more challenging songs for myself and love them too. I love my audience, they are like extended family to me.

I like putting on many musical hats. I can play some Rock, follow it with some Reggae, then some Salsa, then some Country, then some Jazz, then some Pop, then some Disco and get my head around each genre to put out the very specific expression that each style of music requires.

I love it all. When pick up one of my instruments and put the mic in front of my mouth, I go into that place where there is no space or time. I have a partnership with my duo-mate and we have a dialog with the audience. It's play time and it always ends too soon. And we play what the audience wants to hear. Are we selling out?

I could be happy conducting a symphony orchestra too or playing sax in a jazz band. But I don't think I could make a living doing that.

Eddie made a good point about hating what you are doing.

If you hate playing music, why do it? There are other jobs you can hate just as much and get sick leave, vacation pay, paid holidays, employer contributions to your social security, and perhaps even a pension. You can hate working in a factory, you can hate being a clerk in a retail store, you can hate installing cable TV connections. There are plenty of ways to hate your job that provide more than music does in the field of money and benefits.

I knew a guy who played excellent jazz guitar. Jazz is a small market here, so he played one day a week while he worked a day job that he hated for his father-in-law to pay the bills. Is that a sell out? I'd rather play "Free Bird".

I had an opportunity to meet Chet Atkins many years ago. He told me that he really would have loved to play jazz, but country made him a fine living. Was Chet a sell out?

Years ago I read an article in the trades about Nashville musicians, and the quote was, "Don't let the suits know you are secretly into jazz because they really believe in this stuff."

So I'll take Eddie's point seriously. If someone is playing music and hating it, I won't call him/her a sell-out, I'd call him/her stupid.

In my opinion, anyone who is playing music and enjoying it is not selling out, no matter how popular the music is or no matter how much money he/she is making doing it.

Of course YMMV.

Insights and incites by Notes

Wow! So many great answers! I'm surprised, it seems we are all mostly on the same page. I honestly didn't expect that.

To me, and this has pretty much been said, it comes down to do you enjoy the majority of what you are doing when you do it. If you don't enjoy it, but you do it for other reasons, that's a sell out.

I agree that most people that use the term are typically jealous on some level...and/or have to rationalize why they aren't in that position themselves.

A sell out doesn't have to be just money either. I know people who sell out to fame, or to impress others...sometimes trying to impress other musicians. I think it's where the term "guilty pleasure" comes from to a point. If you like a song, but don't want to admit it to your "musician" friends because of what they think...I personally believe you are selling out. Just be yourself. If they don't like you for something that trivial, what kind of friend is that, or why the heck would you want to impress them?

I could go on...and maybe will later; but I think you all have said it better than I would.

I think it's great to have a conversation like this! It shows the strength of the community.

Well said my friend.

So, you're saying musicians are all whores?

COVER BANDS!!!COVER BANDS!!!! SELL-OUT COVER BANDS!!!!!

If being in a cover band is a sell-out, then every symphony orchestra in the world are sell-outs

Amen, I sold out in LIFE for a while by staying married to a woman I really didn't even like much because she was beautiful, rich, very successful in her career, had great medical benefits, was a local celebrity, and owned a nice house.

I hated myself for 5 years until I finally said "no mas" and got out. I lived in poverty for a few years until I got on my feet without her rather substantial salary to spend, but I had to do it as step one of liking ME again.

Now it seems I went too far, 'cuz I LOVE me now!!!!!

I've been trying to "sell out" now for years.... I guess nobody's buying

Guess it means what are you selling out? Assuming you mean integrity there is a very thin line between "selling out" and compromise. Back in the day our band would play three night club gigs that paid well for a bunch of drunks who didn't give a $hit about what we were doing. However, even lesser money at a big festival where folks were attentive and dug our sound was what I enjoyed. To me the club nights were "selling out." However, some other members of the band just wanted to play irrespective of the nature of the crowd and didn't seem to care -- and the money was not a big factor. As my musician stepfather (played in a string band in the 30's) used to say "they have footlights in their eyes."

In a moment of full disclosure I guess I oughta mention that all of us in the band had professional decent paying jobs for which we had a good deal of flexibility with our time. So the "selling out" was not influenced by money. We were a traditional bluegrass band which at the time offered a lot of gigs just being ambient background music for events. I hated that as bad as the clubs. It was at the festivals where you were playing for the aficionados.

Are we going back to that horribly skewed analogy? Is a symphony orchestra playing for a bar tab at Joe's Corner Bar and Slot Car Track?

All comes down to what you want out of it. If you want people to leave drunk and roaring about how messed up they got listening to you, then you can play cliche garbage all night. If you prefer that the crowd leaves saying "Wow. Those guys can play and sing!!!" then you play more complex music that shows your skills.

I prefer the latter.

Standard disclaimer is that I do not play music for a living. If I did, I probably would do whatever it takes to get gigs and make money and try to not feel bad about being what I consider a musical wh0re that does anything for a dollar. All about what you are after.

A sellout is someone who claims they wouldn't do something for some type of compensation based on morals or principles and then turns around and does exactly that. A good example would be a die hard rock musician who claims he would never stoop so low as to play country music even if they paid him a million dollars, then he turns around and plays country music because they paid him a million dollars.

The analogy of hating your job but doing it just to get paid is lacking in definition. If I said I would never be a truck driver because I thought the job was beneath me then I took a job as truck driver to get paid then I would be a sell out. If I started in a job and initially liked it but then grew to hate it and find myself still working it to get paid because that's all I know how to do, that's not a sell out. That's life.

There has to be a claimed moral high ground for not doing something and then a surrender of that high ground for compensation which in effect makes you a hypocrite and a sell out.

Well said Jeff!

There are enough sour grapes in this thread to make a batch of really bad wine.



When someone tells me I've "sold out", I ask them where they are playing.

So a "Sell Out" doesn't actually mean A "Sell Out Concert"? !!

Wow, did I ever get that wrong

When you pull the cork out of that bottle of wine, if you listen closely, you'll still be able to hear the grape pickers arguing...

Wow! I finally have a way to really describe it. I was lacking a way of saying it. This sums up my view. Thanks!

Overall, I have gotten show much perspective on something that I already knew how I felt about. This forum is great for subjects like this for me.

Thank you everyone for your views and input!

I like that definition.

Once again, you nailed it Notes. I wish there were a tip jar handy, I'd drop you a fiver . . . and you would not be a sell out for picking it up either. LOL.

Later,

That's about it to cover my understanding.

I never had a job where I enjoyed everything. There were always tasks I didn't like, but one needs to have a bread and butter job.

If you play metal for your enjoyment, but country pays better? Who cares? I'd even risk a bet that doing a good job at country could even improve your metal playing. These styles are not so different as they would appear for the occasional listener. But as a musician you need the bread and butter job to pay your livelihood. Maybe your proficiency playing jazz opens the opportunity to play country or rock.

A sell out would be for me if that job would compromise ethical behaviour.
Playing a different style of music is not compromising ethical behaviour. Setting your own boundaries of freedom by defining them too narrow is the first step. But then that is your fault if you set the boundaries too narrow. Three rules:
1. Do what you like to do.
2. Do what gives you the freedom to follow number 1 without breaking number 3.
3. Follow the ten commandments to sustain your ethics.*)

*) This is not meant in the religious way. If you're non-religious, skip the two about the superior being -- or reword them for your purpose without selling them out. The third one could be something like: 3. Take your day of rest for a) body, b) brain, c) soul.

Oh... you mean like a politician...says one thing then does the exact opposite?


Or Steven Tyler who's now doing country for the money?

No but that's not the point. A symphony orchestra is covering someone else's tunes - therefore a cover band - therefore as some people have stated - sell-outs.

They work for a conductor who tells them what to play and how to play it, while the conductor takes his/orders from the board of directors who try to figure out what tunes bring in the largest amount of ticket sales. And that's why we get so much Mozart, Beethoven, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and the other pop stars of the classical field. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it means we don't hear much (if any) other great composers like Suk, Sgambati, Gliere, and so on.

And isn't that what most people call a sell-out?

Insights and incites by Notes.

I had both types described in your fist paragraph. I've even played on stage with thousands of cheering fans paying attention and receiving thunderous applause at the end of each song.

I rarely get the roaring drunks since I mostly play yacht clubs, country clubs, private clubs, private parties and the like. More often than not I get people come up to the stage and thank me for giving them a wonderful evening. I get applause every 4-5 minutes, I get smiles from the audience, I get dancers on the dance floor.

We do a weekly afternoon gig at a marina for retired folks from October until the rainy season starts. We just finished our 7th year. The audience is like extended family, we know their names, we know their favorite songs, and many of them hug and kiss us on the way in and out. We've mourned the passing of some, encouraged the healing of others, congratulated accomplishments of some, and celebrated significant events of others.

And no, I don't do anything for a dollar, we do no rap music and no heavy metal. I don't do weddings unless it's an older couple doing a second or third wedding and I'm sure there will not be a Bridezilla running the show.

If there is a gig that I think will not be enjoyable, I simply quote them a high price. That way I don't have to say no. And if they go for the price, it means they really want us, and it also means I'm getting good money for the less than optimal gig.

There are cover songs that other musicians don't want to play. Sure, we've done them a zillion times and there is nothing left to explore. I have only one or two of those. We only do them when requested and a funny thing happens. As soon as I put the sax in my mouth, the guitar in my hands, or the mic in my face, I forget all about not wanting to do the song and have a great time playing it. The music starts and I go into that place where there is no space or time.

But if you want to consider me a wh0re, it's your prerogative.

Personally, I'm having a great life doing music and nothing but music. I've played in dives, supper clubs, strip clubs, 5 star hotels, private homes, cruise ships, and just about everywhere else a musician can play. I've even played with super-stars and have been treated as an equal by them.

I've had two real jobs in my life (played as a weekend warrior during those gigs). I was testing out what the normal person does. And as far as I'm concerned, a bad day at playing music is better than a good day at any day job.

As far as I'm concerned, working a day job so one can play 'art music' for little or no money is a sell-out - unless he/she would rather do the day job instead of playing 'art music'.

If I'm a ho, than I'm laughing ho, ho ho.

A wise man once said, "If you do for a living what you would do for free, you will never work a day in your life." And except for the 2 day jobs I tried, I've never worked a day in my life.

I'm at an age that I could retire. However, as long as I can fog a mirror, and as long as people want to hear what I do, I'll be gigging.

It's my second favorite thing to do (and since this is a family forum, I can't tell you what's first <grin>).

So what is a sell-out? It should be something one person decides for himself/herself, and not a judgement call that one person makes on another. What a sell-out is to Eddie, might be bliss to another. If I had to take a day job to support my 'art music' habit, I'd consider myself a sell-out. We're both right and we're both wrong.

Insights and incites by Notes

What kind of music is immoral?

I play almost anything. I don't do rap or heavy metal because for rap it really doesn't interest me and for heavy metal I don't have the guitar skills for that.

I play rock, disco, big band swing, jazz, R&B, C&W, blues, mambo, merengue, samba, calypso, soca, reggae, beach music, Motown, oldies, new age, smooth jazz, hiphop, dixieland, bubble gum, Broadway, zydeco and one opera song.

I find nothing immoral about any of them.

We do a couple of songs that I find the lyrics offensive, so I simply change them. When we do songs like "Blurred Lines" we change a few lyrics, leave out the misogynous rap part, substitute "chick" for the B word and the words are no longer offensive to me.

I don't do "Let's Get Drunk And Screw" or "Stokin'" because I don't want to offend anyone in the audience. Simple as that, but the songs are light-hearted and I don't find them immoral. People do the things described in the song without guilt. I'm married, and I was a musician on the road before that. (Lucky me).

But the music itself isn't immoral. How can music be immoral?

Immoral words yes. There are plenty of them in rap, but not all rap has immoral words. What about Cole Porter's love for sale? It's a song about a prostitute advertising herself. Immoral? That's a judgement call, I've never had any disrespect for the working girls. As long as they choose to do it, IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

I enjoy learning different styles of music. My country chops help my jazz playing, which helps my rock playing, which helps my reggae playing, and so on. And getting my head into an unfamiliar type of music and learning to express it they way it's supposed to be expressed is fun for me, and when I nail it, I get a feeling of accomplishment.

I love my job, and instead of saying, "I have to go to work today" like some people, I say, "I get to go to work today!" I arrive early, skip my breaks, play extra, have a dialog with the audience, and it ends too soon. I've been a pro since 1964 and have never missed a gig.

That's not being a ho, that's simply loving what I do and doing it the best I can with all the passion that's inside of me.

If that's a sell-out, I'll wear that badge happily.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes said;
"I play rock, disco, big band swing, jazz, R&B, C&W, blues, mambo, merengue, samba, calypso, soca, reggae, beach music, Motown, oldies, new age, smooth jazz, hiphop, dixieland, bubble gum, Broadway, zydeco and one opera song.

I find nothing immoral about any of them."

Your missing the point of the definition and it's not a personal attack on you or your choice of music. You can use a number of topics or scenarios to demonstrate the definition I gave. What you describe in your personal expose of musical styles that you play doesn't meet the standards of the definition of a sell out IMO.

The "moral" part of the definition was coupled with another word "principle". Both of these words are personal attributes that each person develops through their life and become a guide in their decision making process. Some people allow these attributes to control their decisions so much so that they make it known to the world that they would never compromise, not even if someone paid them. "I would never do that!!!!" That's what I mean when I say their has to be a moral declaration. It has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of music. It's a personal declaration and different for everyone.

Little Johnny: "I will never eat my brussel sprouts not even if you let me stay awake till midnight."
That's the declaration.
Dad: "What if I let you stay up till morning?"
Little Johnny: "ok!"
That's the sell out.

Please don't make it anymore difficult than that.

Hmm,
First, Eddie, I am taking something of a liberty by using what I understand of your perspective to make some points. Please understand I am not in any way having a go at you, but I am "using" you

Now, I know Eddie has some disdain for cover bands, and prefers to listen to original music. Fair enough, we all have our preferences. I only mention that to provide a foundation for this. I don't care if what I'm playing is original or not.

I primarily play for 3 reasons:
1) I simply enjoy "blowin' my horn", especially if I have managed to get better at it. I know I'm no "expert" whatever one of those is, in fact I consider myself a marginally talented hack, but I still have fun, no matter what genre I end up playing. Strangely, I even enjoy playing stuff I would never bother listening too - I really don't get that...

2) I really enjoy being involved with other musicians as we play our parts in making a musical "whole" out of what we are playing. Hence my preference for bands and not solo work. I regularly play in 3 "Big Bands", a concert band and a smallish (average of 8 pieces) jazz band. I also play all the amateur musical theatre productions I can ensconce myself in, and occasionally dep. in another concert band. I'm also involved in a brass band and wouldn't mind spending some time in a symphony orchestra if I can manage to make the opportunity. I would REALLY love to be able to play in a "house band" for something like the "*** Idol" or "*** got talent" TV shows - this connects to point 3 below...

3) I really enjoy entertaining people and generally am happy to play what the crowd wants, as far as I can, simply because that's what they want. There are some limitations here, though. Sadly, I have very occasionally committed myself to a gig and discovered that the "show" wasn't what I was expecting - because I gave my word I played the gig, but didn't enjoy it.

Now, I think Eddie would fully understand points 1 and 2 but I'm not sure he would agree with point 3. Unless I've completely misunderstood what he's been writing, I think he would consider the 3rd a "sell out" a) because I would be pandering to the crowd instead of my own preferences. and b) because I have played things I didn't like (even though it was because my word is important to me)

FWIW I agree with the simple definition:
Saying "I would never..." and then doing it for gain (usually financial) is selling out. I don't think anything else is...

It is a silly conversation! Do what you want for whatever reason you choose to do it. (At the end of the day that is what we all do anyway.) And if you change your mind, for whatever reason and at any time, then that is just fine. "Selling out" is just someone else crying sour grapes as they try to hold you to some standard they imagine is universal and meaningful!

Hi 3J,
No argument, it is pretty silly...


...but in the spirit of the OP's question:
I think the operative phrase here is "some standard they imagine is universal and meaningful!".
However, if you consider that there seems to be a consensus reached here that if someone nominates a standard and then goes against it then they qualify as having "sold out". Of course, on the flip side, as you said (I'm paraphrasing somewhat) EVERYONE, not only women, are allowed to change their mind

Exactly!

Never say never

If one says, "I'll never play pop music" and changes his/her mind a year later, is that selling out? Is that immoral? Is that abandoning principles?

I guess that's a judgement call, but I would save principles and morals for something more serious than that kind of music I play. But that's me.

For me immoral would be things like cheating on my wife (or someone else's wife), stealing, or doing something else to compromise the rights or property of another.

Some people think eating beef is immoral, I like it. As I said, immoral is a personal judgement call.

I personally don't think playing any kind of music would be a sell-out, as long as the person playing it doesn't think of himself/herself as a sell out.

I like playing music, and haven't found a style I don't like playing yet.

Insights and incites by Notes

Your example 3 just makes you a pro who honors commitments and is true to his word.

My point, as it would apply to me, would be after years of spewing my disdain for playing Mustang Sally, Moondance, anything my Skynard, and several others on my list, I join a band that plays those songs. I honestly, and I mean this 100%, will refrain from playing music ever again if I was told I had to play those songs on my "Never Again" list. I will go to this extreme to stay with my word. If I was playing a gig with a band, a band who did not play any of those songs, and someone came up and requested "Stairway to Freebird", and the band did it, I would quit the band immediately and not even finish the night. My logic is "If you are going to do it your way where I have no input and you have no respect for what I think is a solid, conscious, musical integrity (there is that oxymoron again!) based decision to never play those songs, you can just do it without me from that minute forward, and I wish you well but I will never play with you again. I am THAT staunch in my belief that there is no reason to be a "because everybody else plays them" chump band. I am not a chump. (Not musically at least. Several women in Ohio would say otherwise. But they all have nice jewelry to remember me by.)

The list:

Mustang Sally
Moondance
Gimme Three Steps
Freebird
Sweet Home Alabama
I Love Rock And Roll
I Hate Myself For Loving You
ANY disco (It is 2015)
ANY Skynard (I know more than those 3 chords)
ANY Kiss (See: "3 chords" above)
ANY Led Zepplin, especially that insipid "Rock'n'Roll" song (Just loud. Nothing more.)
ANY Jimmy Buffet (Seriously? Cheeseburgers? Margaritaville? Sober up and get a job. There is more to life than staying drunk and high all the time.)

I also won't play in a band that doesn't have a thumbprint. Don't be a rock band for 25 minutes, then be a country band, then disco, then punk, then jazz.... You may think that a song list like that will get you more work. I disagree. I believe it is 180 degrees opposed. You can't go into Bob's Country Bunker playing 60's R&B. (Watch the Blues Brothers movie again and you'll understand.)

I guess I should just say that I prefer to not be part of a cliche. I want a set list that NOBODY in town plays so people have a reason to come and hear me, that reason being that unique factor.

As usual I will say, that's just me and my opinion heavily seasoned by the fact that I don't play to pay my mortgage payment or buy food. I really want to play all my own stuff but there are not as many as 3 or 4 other musicians in northeast Ohio who would do that because (say it with me) "The clubs don't want to HEEEEAAAARRRR originals...." (Imagine that with the most annoying nasal whining tone you can muster.)

Sell out is a term I never have understood when applied to the music industry, as when most artist are interviewed they will say they do not want to be peg holed into one genre of music; yet when someone makes a splash in a genre other than the one they were possibly discovered in; they become a sell out. If someone can go from Country to pop as Swift just did and still have the success; more power to them. In most cases you only hear people use the term when they have either been wronged by someone who left for greener pastures; or they are frustrated artist who have lost the joy of music and it's purpose.

On the opposite end of the coin, everyone who plays for money is a sellout.

On a more serious note, I mostly hear the term when either:

1. When a musician identifies himself/herself with a certain form of music and a famous person who plays that kind of music leaves "the club" to find monetary success elsewhere
2. When a musician is envious of the fame another musician found

I don't understand either one:

1. There are no clear cut lines between musical genres, classical melodies find their way into rock songs. It's just music. --- Before Internet Radio, Nashville TN had two of the best jazz radio stations in the country and I read an interview from a big session musician who said, "Don't let the suits know you are really into jazz, because they believe in country music."
2. When a fellow musician becomes famous we should be happy for him/her. It's a rare thing, and it takes talent, a lot of luck, and so many other things that are not really under the control of the musician. Enjoying their success feels better to one's spirit than hating them for it.

For those reasons, I have never-ever called anyone a sell-out, and don't intend to do so.

I have played serious classical music, jazz, rock, country, blues, salsa and other forms of music. There are the same 12 notes in each genre, it's just how you put them together and how you use your technique to express them. It's even fun to get out of your comfort zone and try something different.

I've also been on the bandstand for decades, and there is one thing I know: When a musician does something that incites big excitement in the audience, he/she is going to do more of it.

So if and when you call someone a sell-out, you are really telling the world something about yourself.

Insights and incites by Notes