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Hi Folks,

There are lots of folks here who mucho performing experience and this question goes out to you.

I have a gig coming up in less than two weeks, it's a 6 hour house party with 40-50 people.
It's planned to be outdoors if the weather cooperates, or moved indoors if it doesn't.

There will be:
Vocalist
Guitar/vocals
Bass
Drums

I'm trying to figure out what to do about the sound system.
This is where I could use your opinion.
I'm thinking of either:
a) renting a sound system
b) hiring someone to do the sound (set-up, pick-up)
c) hiring someone to do the sound and man the board

Obviously there's a huge difference in costs with these options.
Although hiring someone would take a lot of pressure off me,
I would worry up to the last minute that they wouldn't show and
the gig would fall flat on my face.

I appreciate all tips/advice.

For a gig of that small size, I'd just rent a simple sound system and run it from the stage.

--Mac

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For a gig of that small size, I'd just rent a simple sound system and run it from the stage.

+1

Mick

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For a gig of that small size, I'd just rent a simple sound system and run it from the stage.

Thanks Mac for your help!

Although I've been performing off and on for many many years now, I've never had to come up with a sound system on my own before.
Is it really a simple procedure to set up the sound system?

If I went this route, how much time would you budget for the setup?

TIA

For a small gig like that i would not mike the drums, just the vocals and any accoustic guitars. A few years ago i bought a small Kustom P/A system and have never regreted it. I paid less than $200 and it was the best investment i have made. Recently some close friends borrowed it for a wedding performance and it was rock solid. The Kustom model is no longer but it was a lot like this unit. http://www.guitarcenter.com/Phonic-Powerpod-410-S710-PA-System-630485-i1395799.gc. You could rent a small system for around $100 to $150 per day, but for a little more have a small portable system that if taken care of would last. I have gotten 8 years out of mine, and it has played to up to 200 people very comfortable

What Mac said.
Use the backline for guitar and bass and run only the vocals (and CD-player or whatever you use for music playback in between sets) trough the sound system.

Remember when you setup that each musician wants to hear him/herself and the other bandmembers. That doesn't mean "turn your amp up" but carefully placement of the amps and the soundsystem.

break a leg.

I'd ask the other musicians if they need monitors. Sometimes they are fussy about that. Sometimes they will be okay with the speakers pointed at an angle that all can hear. But Mac is right, for a small party like that it's easily done.

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If I went this route, how much time would you budget for the setup?
TIA

If at all possible set up a dry run at home or wherever you rehearse with as many of the inputs as you can get together.
On day of gig I would aim to have the whole thing set up, sound checks run etc around 90 minutes before the very first guests are due to arrive. This leaves you some time to sort out any unforeseen difficulty.

It is also helpful if you have someone whose musical judgment you trust--wife/GF, nonplaying muso--anyone who is not distracted with either playing or with the function itself (which is why you wouldn't ask the host)--to help with sound in terms of reporting to you on balance, tone, and overall volume level. Get them to do this at intervals before you start (that's your sound check) and during the first set. They will need to walk around the space while you are playing in order to get a meaningful read. Do this two or three times and you will have about as good a setup you can without having an actual soundman. (And it's BETTER than having a soundperson who doesn't really know what they're doing.)

During sound check, dial in the FOH (front of house) sound first with the monitors turned all the way down, then add monitor to fill in what you can't hear from the mains. Unless it's a really weird stage setup, for a party that small, you shouldn't need much in the way of monitor levels. It's easy to go crazy with it if you've never had proper monitors before.

Make a checklist and check it off as you pack so that you'll remember everything. Have spare cables (mic and speaker (for which you can use instrument cables in a pinch)) and maybe an extra mic or two on hand, just in case. Take way more extension AC cords and outlet strips than you think you could possibly need. Have duct ("gaffer's") tape with you to secure any cords or cables that must run across the floor. Have a LOT of duct tape with you.

Tell us more about the system and the room as you get closer to the function, and we can give you more specific advice.

R.

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Is it really a simple procedure to set up the sound system?

If I went this route, how much time would you budget for the setup?

TIA

Ask the Rental people to show you how to set it up, what connections to make where, etc. Take notes if needed.

TIP: When setting your sound levels, the MIcs and other input knobs/faders should be set up high, while the Master fader should be down low or "cracked" open just enough to get the volume needed. Inputs on about 70% and Master at about 20-30% The inputs should always be higher setting than the master. This will reduce feedback and also give best signal to noise ratio.

--Mac

E-lectric guitars should have the volume turned all the way up. (LOL) Problem is player A jumps his 10 percent, the B by 20, and so on. Soon enough it all foo...

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E-lectric guitars should have the volume turned all the way up. (LOL) Problem is player A jumps his 10 percent, the B by 20, and so on. Soon enough it all foo...

But what if they go to 11?

Your solution is the Bose L1: http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/speakers/portable_amplification_systems/index.jsp

Your situation is pretty much exactly what they were designed for. I've used them a few times in a few situations (once in a coffee house with just one of them, once in a small club with two, and once using three of them as the PA for a small 300-seater theatre). Every time they performed well, sounded great, are super portable and are REALLY dead-easy to set up.

I honestly can't recommend these enough - and since they are a single integrated system you don't have to rent a mixer, monitors, run a bunch of cables, etc etc etc.... They are the best for what you need.

Just rent a pair of those and you're laughing.

+1 for the Bose, if you can find one to rent, it would be the easiest for you to operate, matter of fact they are virtually plug 'n play systems that automatically provide for the critical monitoring issue and do not suffer from the problems of feedback.

Sound great, easy to use, light in weight.

One, with a mixer for input so you can do a few mics and lines, will easily handle a 50 - 100 person venue.

--Mac

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If at all possible set up a dry run at home or wherever you rehearse with as many of the inputs as you can get together.
On day of gig I would aim to have the whole thing set up, sound checks run etc around 90 minutes before the very first guests are due to arrive. This leaves you some time to sort out any unforeseen difficulty.

First I'd like to thank everyone for your valuable input on this!
With the consensus of going for a rental/purchase, I'll go this route.

This is a pick-up group. The singer does know the drummer, but I have never met any of the band members.

A sound check 90 minutes before performing would be nice but with the musicians arriving maybe 30-60 minutes before performing, it's not likely to happen.

I will definitely get there as early as possible to set up the system, but as far as as sound check or dry run is concerned that will be tough.

I will test out the system at my house the night before, just to make sure I know the thing works!

As far as more details on the venue. They are aiming for outdoors if the weather cooperates.
We would setup right next to the house and facing the back yard. The yard is rather huge with a forested area beyond the yard.
We would be covered by a balcony above.

Do Long and McQuade rent the Bose L1?

They sure do, John - that's where I get them every time!

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A sound check 90 minutes before performing would be nice but with the musicians arriving maybe 30-60 minutes before performing, it's not likely to happen.

I will definitely get there as early as possible to set up the system, but as far as as sound check or dry run is concerned that will be tough.

That's where your roving assistant comes in. Have them report to you between the first couple of numbers on levels, tone, and balance among instruments and vocals, make the appropriate adjustments, and you'll have it as good as it's going to get.

Or, if the audience is paying attention and it feels right, ask for comments from them. You will know who knows what they're talking about. (Hint: It's NOT the one asking for "more cowbell".)

R.

I do not recommend asking the audience over the mic for their opinion about sound levels AT. ALL.

--Mac

50 people = 50 opinions all different! Remember the three bears and goldielocks

Citaat:

I do not recommend asking the audience over the mic for their opinion about sound levels AT. ALL.

--Mac

Mac's right.
The audience knows sh*t about making music and, for that matter, music at all. ( disclaimer: most of 'em) And above all that: the audience is there to have a party, not to disect the musical performance of the musicians.

So, let them have a good party and worry about the music and soundsystem yourself (after all, if you know your music, the soundsystem is a piece of cake). If there's no-one you can use as a SE, use the singer. He/she can step into the audience (read in front of the FOH) any time and listen to the band as a spectator. It can easilly be done as part of the show. Keep things in your own hands at these small venues. And, most of all, K.I.S.S.

Hey, HEY! You guys just need a better class of audience is all.

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TIP: When setting your sound levels, the MIcs and other input knobs/faders should be set up high, while the Master fader should be down low or "cracked" open just enough to get the volume needed. Inputs on about 70% and Master at about 20-30% The inputs should always be higher setting than the master. This will reduce feedback and also give best signal to noise ratio. --Mac

Thanks Mac that tip will be helpful.

There is one more control that I'd appreciate getting some tips about; the Trim control.
What is it for and what position should it be set to for each mic channel?

TIA

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There is one more control that I'd appreciate getting some tips about; the Trim control.
What is it for and what position should it be set to for each mic channel?

TIA

The MIc Trim control is not to be used as a Volume Control. It is there to give us a way to limit the amount of gain applied to the critical input stage. Too much will cause distortion, too little will make for a weak sound that is hard for a singer to overcome and get above the band.

It is there to account for the difference in sensitivity of different microphones.

Setting one properly is easy enough. First, look at the board to see if there is a clip light next to that control or not. Don't get all upset if there is not a light there, though. One can easily still set the thing up properly without the clip light.

With the Main Volume set way too low for performing and the Trim knob turned all the way off to the left, bring up the mic's Fader to about 60-70% of its full travel.

Now start speaking (sing if it is a singer's mic) loudly, no, louder than that, into the Mic while at the same time you start bringing up the Trim control. (On some decks, the Trim may be called the "Pad" control, same thing, same function).

You should reach a point in the Trim setting where your loud voice starts to distort, or "clip" as we call it when a signal is driven harder into the following gainstage of the circuits. This is also where any LED Clipping light indicator should start blinking, indicating the distortion is starting to "cross the line".

Set the Trim to just before that point.

Don't touch it again for the rest of the performance, use the Faders down below to raise and lower volume.

In the case of the "pressure cooker" situation, it may be necessary to set the Trim up a wee bit higher and not be concerned with a little bit of clipping, it won't be noticeable in that scenario and may just add a bit more edge and intelligibility to the singer.

--Mac

Thanks Mac for that. I actually understood everything!

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+1 for the Bose, if you can find one to rent, it would be the easiest for you to operate, matter of fact they are virtually plug 'n play systems that automatically provide for the critical monitoring issue and do not suffer from the problems of feedback.

Sound great, easy to use, light in weight.

One, with a mixer for input so you can do a few mics and lines, will easily handle a 50 - 100 person venue.

--Mac

Hey Mac,

Can you please explain how this system would take care of a monitoring situation?
Also the base system I looked at only had one mic input, which wouldn't have been enough.

Review of the gig coming shortly...

These units are designed to sit right onstage with you, rather than out in front, so you hear the exact same thing your audience hears. Works well.

There is one mic input and one line input on the things.

One can hook the line output of a mixer to the line input and expand to as many mic/line inputs as the mixer provides. This works well also.

--Mac

I was taught how to set up a console a little differently then the way Mac does. I attended a Live Sound school at the University of ? in Anaheim, Ca. It was 7 days 10 hrs a day. Lots of big names there. The mixing classes were given by the head engineer for Garth Brooks, The head Engineer for Showco and the head Engineer for Clair Brothers. There was a stage with a band set up and then there was the standard FOH and Monitor consoles. There were also about six sound isolated booths with duplicate consoles patched into the band for individual instruction.
In a nut shell when the band is cooking along nothing special happening engineer just standing back listening all faders should be at 0. In other words the basic mix is acquired by placing all faders at 0 and then using the trim controls to acquire the nominal mix. The faders are then used for what they called "specials". Solos, drop someone back, special effects etc. When it was time to go back to normal all faders at 0.With faders at 0 you get maximum throw and still have 26 db of gain available.
This procedure can't be followed if you are mixing monitors from the FOH console using a pre fade aux send. Won't be enough gain on some instruments for effective monitors. In this case set the gain to just below clip.

Mac is spot on with all of his recommendations.

I will expound on his response just a wee bit. It's possible that if you get a mixing board with the PA system, that it may not have clipping lights for each channel. If not, there is a good chance that there may be PFL or Pre-Fade Listen buttons for each of the input channels.

When these are depressed, on most boards, the VU meters for the board will be switched over to meter those channels that are PFL-enabled, rather than the mains of the board.

This just turns the VU meters into a fancy clipping meter. I recommend a few steps when I encounter a new board I haven't touched before.

Step 1. 'Zero' the board. Sometimes, this is as simple as taking the edge of your index finger, starting at the highest input channel, and running it from right to left across all of the input trim controls so they go to their extreme counter clockwise directions. If you can't do that easily, just go through and turn all the trims manually to their zero settings. Some boards have a switch for mic vs. line level. Make sure to get those switches set properly first as well. Second part of zero'ing the board is to put all of the aux channel settings for each input channel strip to zero. Last step to zero the board is to put the channel EQ settings at their neutral positions (usually straight up and down). Most boards and setups sound pretty doggoned nice at their neutral settings for line level inputs (like program material on CD, keyboard outputs, etc.) if you get the mains EQ'ed properly for the room(detailed below).

Step 1a. If the board has a high-pass filter setting for each channel, where the corner frequency is at 80-120 Hz or so (sometimes written right on the board itself, always in the manual if there), then enable that thing for every single channel except any bass guitar or kick drum. There is absolutely no need to have that frequency content in any signal except your lowest end instruments. Enabling it will help to eliminate unnecessary rumble that can occur from bumping into mic stands and what not. This is also very good practice for recording. Always, always, always put in high pass filtering if possible, on most mic'ed and line-in channels if you really don't need the low end (again, generally true for everything except bass instruments and kick drums). This can clean up a muddy mix tremendously.

Step 2. Set the trim control for each input channel and the main output as per Mac's instructions, or if you have PFL, enable it one channel at a time and use the VU meters, letting the max hit in the yellow region of the VU meter (most are color coded green-yellow-red).

Step 3. EQ the main output/speakers. Good practice to bring along some music you know well on CD in CD format and put it into the board's tape-in connections. Run that to the output and set the EQ for the main speakers either on the board (if there is a main EQ section - many smaller boards have a little 7-10 band EQ for this) or in the outboard EQ that should be after the output of the board and before the amp for the speakers.

Step 4. From here, usually my next step is to set monitor levels and EQ, but often times, this isn't available or even necessary for smaller venues and setups.

Lots of further steps, but following these, can help you to get the basic signal gain staging set properly for mixing on a board. If you get reasonably good at even these steps, you will be considered a hero by many. It's amazing how many folks don't get these pretty basic steps and end up with a feedback-prone, terribly EQ'ed setup.

Other tricks of the trade for live sound:

1. Know your formant frequencies. Forming these vowel sounds with your lips while exhaling/whispering can help you pinpoint at least octave band issues.
'ooooo' = 250-500Hz, 'aaaaaahhhhhh' = 1000 Hz, 'anh', voiced as the nasal 'a' sound in the American English pronouned 'bank', 'cat', 'flag', etc. = 2000Hz, 'eeeee'=4000Hz.

If you feel silly doing this, then another way to learn these is to find a graphic EQ and put your favorite music through it - first setting the EQ flat to zero, then one at a time, raising a slider all the way up, and all the way down (easier to hear peaks than it is a lack of content). Do it several times, with several types of music - but best to do it with the kind of music you'll be mixing. If you practice this for even an hour and make some mental notes, you are well on the way to learning to hear 'peaks and valleys', but likely 'peaks' easier.

2. Don't use speaker monitors if you can avoid it. Hey if the singers and instrumentalists are keeping time and relatively balanced - kill the floor wedges and hot spots. On-stage volumes are the bane of running a good mix. If you have to have these in place, it doesn't hurt to bring the levels down gradually if there are no complaints and no detriment to the mix.

I've got more, but I see I've typed way too much.

-Scott

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These units are designed to sit right onstage with you, rather than out in front, so you hear the exact same thing your audience hears. Works well.

There is one mic input and one line input on the things.

One can hook the line output of a mixer to the line input and expand to as many mic/line inputs as the mixer provides. This works well also.

--Mac

OK thanks Mac.
It's nice to know you could feed an external mixer into the Bose to provide additional mic channels.
But of course the idea to start with was to lighten things up and bring as few components as possible.

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I was taught how to set up a console a little differently then the way Mac does. I attended a Live Sound school at the University of ? in Anaheim, Ca. It was 7 days 10 hrs a day. Lots of big names there...

In a nut shell when the band is cooking along nothing special happening engineer just standing back listening all faders should be at 0. In other words the basic mix is acquired by placing all faders at 0 and then using the trim controls to acquire the nominal mix. The faders are then used for what they called "specials". Solos, drop someone back, special effects etc. When it was time to go back to normal all faders at 0.With faders at 0 you get maximum throw and still have 26 db of gain available.

Thanks John for this tip!

Maybe this tip can be used when you have a powerful board with all the bells and whistles?
With the 400W mixer that I used for my gig, if I recall correctly, when I did the trim adjust to start, I had the faders set to zero (channel faders and Main fader) and couldn't hear anything.

I needed to put the Main at about 7 or 8 o'clock and the channel fader to about 8 or 9 o'clock before I could adjust the trims.

As for actual performance. With trims set (and they were basically at full, or at the 5' o'clock position, we needed the main vocal channel at about 2 o'clock and the mains were at 9 o'clock.

So we didn't have the luxury of having faders at the 0 position.

Monitors were set to around 12 o'clock by the vocalist for her channel.
She pulled pretty much everything else out of the monitor mix.

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Mac is spot on with all of his recommendations.

I will expound on his response just a wee bit. It's possible that if you get a mixing board with the PA s

I've got more, but I see I've typed way too much.

-Scott

Thanks Scott for these great tips! I will keep them for future gigs.

OK here's a really brief summary of what happened at the gig.

I arrived almost two hours before performance time.
Good thing too because it took 1.5 hours to unpack/move, set up the sound system!

Once the system was operating I let the vocalist adjust the settings to her liking (she had a lot of experience performing and mixing).

She removed basically everything (guitar, bass, drums) from the monitors and had just her vocals coming from them.

I could hear everyone but I felt that my guitar was a bit weak at times and should have either boosted the level in the mains or increased my level on my amp or guitar pots.

We didn't have the luxury of doing a sound check before the gig nor of having someone knowledgeable check out the sound from the audience.

We were basically winging it. What it sounded like from the audience was anybody's guess. The audience seemed to enjoy the music so that was nice and people were even dancing at times.

A few audience members came up during the evening to sing some songs with the band and got a good reception from the audience as well.

Overall it seems everyone was happy with the performance but as to what it actually sound like mix-wise?

My biggest lesson though was the work required to set up the sound system. I don't mean the actually mixing. I mean the lugging of the equipment putting everything together. The 2.5 hours setup and tear-down + the renting the equipment loading the car etc. etc.

I have performed many times prior to this, but it had always been simply, guitar and amp into car, unload guitar and amp, re-load guitar and amp, drive home!

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but I felt that my guitar was a bit weak at times and should have either boosted the level in the mains or increased my level on my amp or guitar pots.

Believe it or not, that is actually a very good place to be for the guitarist.

"weak at times" beats "too loud" the rest of the time any day for a gig like that one.

--Mac

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My biggest lesson though was the work required to set up the sound system. I don't mean the actually mixing. I mean the lugging of the equipment putting everything together. The 2.5 hours setup and tear-down + the renting the equipment loading the car etc. etc.

I have performed many times prior to this, but it had always been simply, guitar and amp into car, unload guitar and amp, re-load guitar and amp, drive home!

I do work for a company called 'Portable Church Industries' as a trainer for A/V systems they sell. Their full systems are nicely integrated and get that setup and teardown time down to about as short a time as possible. Most of these systems are sold to churches that are meeting in schools, VFW halls and the like. Rental time is expensive to them so quick setup and teardown is absolutely critical to these churches.

Depending on how often you plan to do gigs like this, you may want to check out their stuff. I don't get a commission from them - I'm just a hired gun when they get overloaded doing delivery of systems across the country. Their website is www.portablechurch.com At their Blog, there are lots of photos for how they have optimized their systems for quick setup and teardown, load in/ load out.

The system is not necessarily 'space' efficient. It is designed for speed and quality of A/V, not so much space. So, for example, in a case, there is a shelf specifically for 15' instrument cables, a separate shelf for 15' xlr cables, another shelf for a different kind of cable, etc. All of these could be thrown into one box that would take up 1/3 of the space - but you'd have to sort them out the next time you setup - which eats time and costs money. With the PCI system, as long as you have some discipline putting things away where they were designed to be put away, you can significantly cut down your load in/out time and your system setup and teardown time.

I did one delivery in Florida where one of the A/V crew from the church was used to doing local audio support for a rental Audio company that supported touring national acts. This church was actually using some of that equipment and cases. The cases were big 6'x6'x2' tall open top cases on casters that they chucked all their cables into. Pretty space efficient, but you needed a proper loading dock to make use of the cases. The guy was complaining about how much space the PCI stuff required. The difference is that his company mainly uses lots of people to be quick at a gig. PCI uses the concept of everything having it's own place for speed and all cases being able to fit into doorways approved for wheelchair use. Once I pointed that out, he seemed to get it and actually pitched in and helped.

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...and then there was the standard FOH and Monitor consoles. ...

...This procedure can't be followed if you are mixing monitors from the FOH console using a pre fade aux send. Won't be enough gain on some instruments for effective monitors. In this case set the gain to just below clip.

The thing is, - this isn't 'standard' to have separate mains and monitor mixing boards for shows that most of us will perform in or even mix. BIABguy didn't even have someone that could check the house mix beforehand. I'm sure it was standard for the guys teaching the class. They even have likely multiple backups for the monitor engineer at their gigs. Actually, most of the big shows now do digital consoles and they don't have to touch much of anything - fades and mixes are programmed and they sit back and have a smoke for most of the time.

I have heard of that method before but as you point out, it really doesn't work if you are running monitors on aux sends that are pre-fader; which is the bog standard way of running monitor mixes for most smaller, non arena gigs. There are other problems with it as well depending on the fader taper ABOVE zero. Depending on the manufacturer and model, the throw you have available above zero may give you 26 dB of control, but it's in a much smaller linear space.

I would much rather put solos and such punched into subgroups and give those groups the extra gain, if necessary, on a grouped fader rather than singled fashion, and know that I've protected myself from individual channel distortion as best possible.

I've got to ask - do you actually do gigs this way? What has been your experience with it? It seems really weird to 'mix' at the trim controls with the much more limited travel/gain ratio that exists on the pots rather than the facers. It even defies the naming convention of the item itself.

I'm always willing to learn a new way of doing things if it makes my life easier with higher quality results.

When I was doing my one man show I had a Spirit 12 channel console.
4 channels for inst.
1 for live keys
4 drums
1 vocal
2 harmonies

I didn't use monitors so I was able to set my mixer like the big shows.
Yes the last time I did a big show a VCA console was a big deal. Now there all digital as you mentioned.

...

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best wishes guys