Soundcloud-Goodbyes to last sunset

Hi folks.
Here is a tune I made recently using BIAB/Cakewalk.
I would appreciate constructive critique on mixing. Especially how the voice "sits" in the mix. What can be done to improve overall sound..? Perhaps something obvious please like: more/less EQ, more/less compression, effects.. Time does not permit to sit and mix for long time, so looking for ways to get mix under control using some fast techniques. I am not touchy, and will not cry if you say that whole thing is crap, just explain why and what can be done to improve please. Thank you!



BIAB, Cakewalk, Izotope Nectar, myself.


BIAB:

1293: Bass Electric, TexMexCountry
580:Guitar, Electric, Rhythm Blues Roadhouse
RealDrums=TexMexCountryEV8
~522:Guitar,Acoustic, Fingerpicking
~543:Guitar,Electric, Rhytm Dreamy
2035: Mandolin, Soloist CountryAndy
438:Sax,Alto, Older Sw

Empty streets, nobody around
Nobody to blame, nobody to follow
Nobody to hate and nobody to love

I am standing at the corner,
smoking cigarette
Saying my goodbyes to last sunset

As degrading locomotion,
as a doctors precautions
as spontaneous combustion
like photography emulsion
fading over time.

I am standing at the corner,
smoking cigarette
Saying my goodbyes to last sunset

Velvet sky, stars like sugar sprinkles
Breeze is tickling cobalt periwinkles
Night is mute,
Just trees are chatting among themselves.

I am standing at the corner
out of cigarettes.
Lazy moon is gently peeking
from the clouds-duvets.

I like the song. Vocal's not intelligible, it's getting drowned out by the instruments. Bring that sucka UP!


Extra points for using "spontaneous combustion" in the lyric.


Regards,


Bob

Greetings!

I've read several of your posts. You are passionate about your hobby. It is great to have someone with your energy and excitement become a member of the forum so welcome!

So you will know what I'm basing my comments on, I'm using an inexpensive Logitech combination open back headphones/microphone headset connected to a V2.0 USB port of an older Windows 7 laptop.

I listened to "Goodbyes To Last Sunset" but did not get very excited about the song. Some of that is because most Latin based material doesn't thrill me.

In this song I don't think the RealTracks instrument selections matches the song very well. They really don't add much feeling to the song. While sampling a selection of other songs you've posted I found many of the instrument arrangements contributed to the feel of the song better than this time. A really good example is "Blazhenniy /Holly Fool". That is a song I enjoyed listening to. I instrument selection was interesting, unexpected and added to the emotion of the song.

Your mix is okay but feels overly compressed with much of the energy squeezed out. You need to add more high frequency content to all you songs but "Goodbyes To Last Sunset" really needs it.

The vocalist (is that you, you have a nice sounding voice) does not sing with energy in this song. In places the words are muddled, not clear. It sounds like the vocalist is not that interested in the song.

Before you discovered Band-in-a-Box, what did you use for backing tracks? I ask because the backing track arrangements are very interesting. The songs labeled simply "1", "2" & "3" are good examples of some interesting song arrangements.

There is a lot to like about this. It is an interesting write - a bit "too poetic" for my taste, but I think it works.

Jim gave a thorough critique, I think, but I would disagree on a few of his points. (I do enjoy listening to an occasional Latin song - and I think this one works as one). I thought the vocal had the "energy" it needed (I liked it). And I did not have a problem with the selection of instruments.

There is a bit of difficulty hearing some of the vocal (not much, I don't think). I like the "warmth" of the vocal. The "problem" (if you want to call it that) is that the instruments are all vying for the same frequency range (the middle to low- middle) - including the vocal. The guitars in particular are a big part of that problem. Many of the RealTrack acoustic guitars sound GREAT by themselves, by in a full mix are far too "bass-y", "thick" in the low mid range. That is really the case with the two guitars you have (I think - it would help if you listed the RealTracks you are using - particularly if you want people to talk about the mix.

I believe your acoustic guitars need to have the low end roll off (a bunch) and the high end (EQ) raised to make them "sparkle" and not compete with the rest of the track - and especially the vocal. AND they could be panned a little farther out - they sound like they are fairly close to the center?

These are all simply opinions (as you know). Again, I would suggest that you list the RTs so we can speak to them more specifically...

Welcome to the Showcase! A good first post...

fj

90 dB,
Thank you! I actually thought that vocals are too loud. Mixing is my nemesis
Will try to balance it more.

Jim, Super thank you for honesty!
I like to experiment with styles and try to do as much improvising as I can.
Took note of HF and compression and will try to play around with these.

Before BIAB... whatever I could get a hold of. Life musicians, arranger styles, loops, hardware sequencers such as Yamaha QY. Anything that worked effectively fast as time is very limited.

For example this song (Goodbyes to last sunset) I wrote in a day and a half. You are right, I could of singed better but I am more interested in variety, sort of musical sketches. If I enjoy the style I can "stay in it" for longer period which would translate in better vocals. But usually I do not come back to "re-write" song, only to re-mix.

Thank you!

Listing the RT's would help regarding a critique. Use of panning and eq can help tracks sit in their place. Look at the eq of each and find what tracks are sharing a lot of the same range(s)...you can then raise or lower (preferably lower) certain ranges to reduce conflict. Try not to pan tracks on the same side if they occupy a lot of the same eq spectrum. While panning is left and right judicious use of reverb can give a sense of moving a track forward. Izotope's Neutron 2 has a feature that lets you compare any tracks you want to simultaneously and see where they are "fighting" for the same space. Great feature.

Having blathered all that...we like the write, the vocal and the groove. You mentioned not having much time for mixing but with mixing the devil is in the details. It takes time to learn about it and time to execute it. And at some undefinable point things become easier and faster. FWIW

Enjoyed it. Best to you on the sonic journey...

J&B

Floyd Jane, looks like I lost the bet, you gain!
But actually, I want to say thanks to you and to all: Bob, Jim, Janice & Bud that contributed! Very good read!

It seems my main concern with mix should be overlapping of frequencies / EQ and panning.

The panning part I am a bit confused by. How is this done? Vocals to one side & Instruments to the other or something like: Bass and drums go together and the rest opposite? Is there a general concept with panning for very basic mix?

Mixing just drives me nuts. Sometimes when I do it, I feel like a witch who is making a very untasty soup. Hopefully it will get better

Hi Mike,

I like the vibe that you've created. I'm a fan of Latin music and your arrangement makes good use of signature Latin sounds.

While I often find lyrics such as these that travel along the road of the impressionistic artist and the poet difficult to appreciate fully, I thought that your words worked well, very well in fact, when framed by the Latin backing. Your singing also works really well with this style.

Since you have asked for feedback regarding the mix...

In my headphones, your vocals 'sound' like they are mixed more-or-less ok. While they're probably a little on the softer and slightly uneven side, the main problem (as I hear it, at least) is one of definition in that the mid-to-low frequencies have crowded up on one another and individual sounds are masking aspects of one another. To some extent, this also seems to have impacted on the panning. The net result is that clarity is reduced.

As floyd has mentioned, the low end on guitars is often responsible for this. Pianos, too, add to this issue when used. With a single guitar backing, it's not a problem. When two or more guitars get together and then bass is added, though, the problem of low frequency clashes becomes something to watch for because it can potentially damage a good mix.

To help solve this, I usually use a high pass on the EQ that begins rolling off the bass end of the the guitars from around 180-130 Hz and below (this is around F# below middle C to the C one octave below middle C). While this roll-off will give the guitar a thinner sound when solo'd, when it's part of a mix, it works fine because the bass takes the low end. You might not need to do this to all guitars. Sometimes, having a single guitar keep its low end can be helpful to a mix, sometimes not.

What I always do when mixing, is firstly solo the bass and drums and resolve any low frequency clashes I hear. Next I solo the guitars individually against the bass and eliminate clashes. I then solo pairs of guitars with one another and resolve any issues that arise. Lastly, if I use a piano, I solo it against the bass, resolve issues, and then solo it against each of the other instruments and resolve those issues.

When I get my low end sorted for all the instruments that I'm using, I then mix the tracks to create a backing and selectively add occasional high frequencies to one or two of the instruments to add a little additional clarity and sparkle (as floyd also suggests). I'm also mindful that excessive 'stereo width' on stereo tracks has the potential to rob the track of some of its character.

This might seem like a lot of work. At the end of the day, though, being methodical like this has made my mixing much faster than it used to be. Moreover, seeing that the mix and its presentation are the most important aspects of the final product, I think it's worth the effort.

As Bud has said above, learning to mix effectively is about practising. I know that my mixes from 2 years ago are generally not as good as my mixes today. When I mixed my songs 2 years ago, though, I did the best I could at that time. (I'm now slowly working my way through them and remixing to bring them up to date.) When I listen to the radio, I'm always reminded that I still have a long way to go when it comes to getting my mixes 'right'. Still, I'm enjoying the journey.

Hope these thoughts help.

Regards,
Noel

There is a wealth of information on the net regarding mixing...for beginners to advanced.

For panning, to start, just visualize a band playing on a stage. Drums center, bass center (bass is fairly non directional) lead vocals center, harmony slightly to left or right, rhythm instruments further out on left and right, etc. Don't slam anything full left or right and don't pan the lead vocal. Find some reference songs you like, kick back and listen to where it's all happening. And read and watch how to videos...becoming a good mixer is a journey not a destination from my perspective. There are folks on this forum who've forgotten more than I'll ever know!

J&B

This might be useful with regards to mixing.

I like Rob Mayzes' work. His videos are easy to understand and to implement.




Graham Cochrane also has some good videos on Youtube.




Regards,
Noel

Nice song - interesting vocal and melody.
Lots of good mixing tips in the earlier reviews.

Peter

Hi RustySpoon,

I like your song and the latin vibe it has, but as some of the others pointed out, some changes in the mix could make it even better.

I will not repeat all the good advice you already got from the other posters, but just show you a picture of a cheat sheet that can help when we try to understand where the different instruments might crash with each other, etc. It's especially useful when working with EQ.

Will

First, I really like the song and the style. You did it justice as well.

A lot of great suggestions have been given. I didn't see this covered; and I'm not the one to ask about mixing really, however the distorted guitar that comes in at 1:20 seemed a bit out of place. Not that it didn't belong at all I guess, but it was pretty loud. ESPECIALLY since you were doing such a cool vocal thing there! Loved that!

So, that's about all I could suggest. I really liked the who the song though. Keep working on it. You are WELL on your way there. And by asking, you will get there!

I like the mix personally. I'm using Sennheiser 598 phones and everything sounds good to me

Good song. I'm with others on the "panning". With latin percussion, I'd expect to hear a wider spread. Besides that, the left channel seems a little bare compared to the right. I'll bet if you look at the master levels, that may become visually apparent. Every new sound also arrived in the right field, and felt a little crowded.

How to: With a stereo-expander in the fx chain for your drums, you can get that effect. You might also audition some complementary real-drums and set one further right (or center) and the other further left.

Oh boy, tons of good stuff.
Thank you all for your support!

For me this post initially was sort of a challenge from Floyd Jane. I was suggesting a new thread specifically for half baked tunes, such as this for kind souls to listen and give their honest input, such as I asked for. He was critical of it, but mostly right about proposing posting here and asking people to chip in for an honest opinion.

But here is the fork that I see... I already started pocking at the track, trying to resolve muddiness. Lets say in a week or so I say to myself (again) "Ok, this is better!" What do I do for checks & balances? Meaning, now that I got great feedback, I do not want to abuse ears of the people who are here (in showcase topic) just to listen to new tunes and not trying to re-analyze something they heard before...

And another dilemma... I do have a direct question for J&B, but not sure if it is the right place to ask, because in this thread there are not too many particular technical issues/struggles being discussed.

In any case, I am grateful for your suggestions and honesty. I have started doing my homework. I have heard tunes of most people who replied to this thread in past several month. And for the most part I am jealous (in a good way) and thankful to have this feedback.

P.s. Got to learn how to use damn EQ!

Mike.

First of, all I really like this! Love the latin groove.

The "band" sounds good except for that distorted guitar, I agree with HTL on that.

Some minor mix issues, no need to repeat what's already been said.

Love your vocal! Very expressive. And I like the lyrics too.

Overall it's a very good song and I enjoyed the listen.

I really enjoyed this tune. Sounded great to me on the headphones. Well done

Rustyspoon...I found your track very interesting! First reactions:
Your instrumentation was too busy as you started the vocal...I think you should back off some of the rhythm elements, at least in the first verse, to allow the listener to focus on your lyric and its' message...then, as you build the song to the conclusion, you can gradually add elements to reach a "full texture" by the time you get to the end.

What is your native language? I wondered whether your selection of phrases was the result of an attempt to translate into English something that was very poetic in your native tongue..or if you intentionally constructed these phrases, like "degrading locomotion" and "doctor's precaution"...they are interesting, but in a bizarre way, in English--they don't really bring any meaning.

I also really liked the 'wild' vocal add-in's that you did--they really contributed to the "latin jungle' type of feel...I thought of Martin Denny in the 1970's.."jungle lounge music"..very interesting!

i can't comment on the mixing, I struggle in that area, but keep on being creative!!

Dave, Scott
Thank you!

Dave just this morning, I was listening to:
"In the still of the night"

You mentioned about mixing:
"I'll go into detail if anyone is interested." I will take you up on that

Mike.

I found this extremely interesting.

Kind of like a Ukrainian Leonard Cohen--but more fun, and less depressing, with a lot of flair. I thought the selection of Real Tracks here was creative and inspired, not at all what I would have imagined. I like that.

The backing tracks sounded fine to me. Sure, maybe some tweaks needed, but otherwise not bad at all for starting out with real tracks.

I liked the lyrics and I actually liked the vocals. I found them to be very engaging and refreshing even if they did need to come up some. For a "style" or genre I can kind of see it being its own thing. It has personality. I was surprised at how much I liked it actually.

Not to be long-winded, but I would start with one good plug-in for each standard instrument track.

I believe Waves has a "CLA" set that covers all instruments--bass, guitars, vocals, etc. If you used the presets on such plugins (five or six in all, for example) they would get you in the ballpark of the frequency dynamics you wanted for each instrument track with only 6 good plugins and you could tweak from there.

This way you would have very little to do in the mastering stage except use the cheap version of Ozone 8 Essentials.

If you use a hodge-podge of VSTS from different companies, things can get really confusing real fast.

Trust me. I have 500 plugins. I know confusing.

But anyway, I think this is extremely interesting and I strongly encourage you to keep being yourself and keep experimenting.

I like what I hear going on.

I've used some of these same RTs before,

love them and you use them well here,

don't know if you've made adjustments before my listen

it sounds pretty good to me, I like to hear more bass in my mixes

overall a solid song, enjoyed the listen

Kenny

This is a really nice write and really a wonderful fit for your vocals. Regarding the mix - David Wills of Proaudiodvd's is one of the best teachers you will find.



Ulitmate Home Recording School

Wow... Thank you all for encouragement and super tips!

Since yesterday, I feel like my brain got a bit bigger. A lot of very useful and delicious information. I feel like a giant python that just swallowed antelope. At the same time I was able to find common ground among many suggestions and things moved much faster as far as improving the mix. I had some time to experiment with tonal controls of magical Izotope and I already feel much better about this tune and future of mixing scares me less

Tano Music, Thank you for busy instrumentation at vocal start tip. I see what you mean. My native language is Russian, but have been living in US for most of my life, sometimes I get confused myself not knowing if I am translating or it is just lingual fusion

On that note, short offbeat story. I have a friend who is a scientist. She conducted experiment, brain scanning of multilingual people. The findings were amusing and scary (to me). She said, that different languages when heard by bilinguals trigger different parts of their brain.

Kenny, Thank you! No, I have not made any adjustments on the uploaded tune.
These real tracks are great indeed, I wish there would be more like these + Bachata and Cuban styles too

Charlie, Thank you! I will look David Wills up. For my uses, I believe I got most of puzzle pieces within past 24 hours. It will take weeks for this information to settle in me. I am not in music production, just want my stuff to sound a bit better

David, thank you for kind words! I am with you on limiting the amount of VSTs so things are less confusing. I am a lucky owner of Neutron advanced, and only today I started realizing it's potential. I think this plugin should do most of what I am trying to accomplish, which are sketches that hopefully will sound less muddy As I mentioned, reading through trove of excellent tips, I got the track under control this morning.

Again, BIG thank you to all.

Personally, sounds quite good to me. Nice song!! I'm listening on computer speakers but I don't hear any obvious problems. However, there are many on the forum who are much more capable mixers than I am. I like it! Take care. Greg

Greg, thank you!

On speakers at my place it did, sound ok too, but in reality it is a bit mushy.

After years of very fair critique from my wife that my tunes are muddy, I finally understood the cause of the problem after posting a tune here couple of days ago and getting constructive feedback

Now, like a good schoolboy I will check frequencies before mixdown!

Mike.