Hi Everyone,

I registered here at PG Music because after going through some of the topics, it appears that the membership is helpful and friendly. I couldn't say the same about some other bigger-name forums I browsed where elitist smart-[*****] remarks popped up too frequently for my taste.

I used to compose synth music back in the 80's and 90's with a Korg M1, Roland U20 and Cakewalk, but that took a back seat when I got into drums. I'm now interested in getting back into music composition. I bought a really nice Alesis QS8 synth, and chose it because of the quality of the weighted keys, it has a full 88-key keyboard, it's touch-sensitive and has the all-important (for me) aftertouch. I bought it along with a nice Yamaha G50-112 amp for $260 Canadian, and figure I did really well. I like the quality of my Roland U20 but wanted something more modern and with a full 88 keys. I plan to use the Alesis QS8 primarily as my playing keyboard, with Cakewalk Sonar X2 for my DAW software.

I'm also planning to buy a Nektar Impact LX49 or LX61, not so much for a player keyboard but because of its tight integration with DAW software like Cakewalk. I'm hoping to use the Nektar's features to control Cakewalk. Thus, I'm not sure what is the best way to cable these 2 keyboards to my composing laptop using MIDI in/out/thru. Logic is telling me to connect the Alesis to the laptop with something like a Roland UM-ONE MK2 USB/MIDI interface adapter, plugging into the Alesis' MIDI in & out ports. I would then plug the Nektar board into the Alesis' MIDI thru port.

Is this how you MIDI gurus would suggest, or have a better suggestion? Again, the Alesis QS8 would be my playing keyboard and the Nektar would be used mainly to interact with Cakewalk.

Let me know if you need any additional info. Thank you for the advice & any tips, going forward!

Welcome to the forum.

Good to know you are not extinct.

I think I know a likely candidate for the forum you describe, and I understand how you feel. If it's the one I think, you probably will find more people there with knowledge about your specific question than here, but we certainly have some solid ones.

The help you seek isn't my strength, but let's see what others say.

Curious, but why did you stay with SONAR X2? That, with the possible exception of X1, was the least stable of all their versions I have used, from Cakewalk Pro Audio and SONAR 3 through 8.5, and now X3 then Platinum.

First Welcome.

I still have & use a QS8 (and have a Fusion 8HD and Montage 7 and a few odds and ends boards around) – it is still a very useful board.

I have no “hands on” experience with the Nectar other than quick look up on Sweetwater to see what it was. However, based on specs I read you CANNOT, as you suggest,

“… plug the Nectar board into the Alesis' MIDI thru port.”


The QS8 is 5 PIN DIN MIDI only (no USB ports) board and the Nectar is USB only (no 5-pin MIDI connections) board.

However, assuming your laptop has TWO (available) USB ports connect UM-ONE (or similar USB to MIDI cable or box) to QS8 and the Nectar to another laptop USB port and configure Sonar to use both MIDI ports for I/O.

If your laptop only has one USB port (unlikely), or only has one you can use,then you may have to think about how/when to use each keyboard. The obvious solution (a USB HUB) is not one I recommend long term. A USB HUB when connecting a “USB to MIDI” device (like UM-ONE, external synth module, etc.) to a PC (desktop or especially laptop) may, notice I DID NOT SAY WILL, cause issues – timing, note glitches, intermittent strangeness, etc.

But others here might have other opinions/experiences.

It hurts nothing to TRY and use a HUB but if you do I HIGHLY recommend a POWERED hub (not a “powered by the PC BUS” HUB).

Trying a HUB won’t hurt anything - it just may not work or not work well.

All my gear, with exception of my iRig Keys Pro, has at least a 5-PIN MIDI out connection. Even my You Rock Guitar has a 5 pin connection.

Some units (Fantom XR, Integra7, Montage 7) also have USB connections but I generally don’t use those USB connections for anything other than editing the synths.

I connect all my gear, including my guitar rack, to MIDI patch bays for better real-time PC-to-synths, synth-to-PC, and synth-to-synth’s inter/intra-connections, control & configuration (or in mil jargon C3 - Command, Control, and Communication).


As far as Sonar X2 I have to ask same question Matt did. Like Matt, and a lot of folks here, I’ve had and run ALL CW DAW's and currently use Sonar Platinum although I DO KEEP Sonar 8.5 and a few other versions, like CWPA 9.1 on my PC ready to use – just in case. But I do not keep X1 or X2 installed - they are/were too glitchy. I also have some of the other "usual suspect" DAW's: Reaper, Mixcraft, Music Creator, Cubase, Realband and a few others… but mainly use Sonar.

====

QS8 side bar:

The internal battery for keeping your user memory from dumping is a SOLDER-in BR-2325 and unless it was changed by previous user, it is getting really LONG IN THE TOOTH and should be changed before you start having random issues. They are easy to find

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-bsg/BR-2325-HGN/P193-ND/31948

(the above IS THE PIN configuration you want if doing a direct replacement)

But you need to know a good tech - unless you are handy with electronics and soldering (I do all my own electronic and amp repair work I am an ex-electronics tech).

I actually changed all my Alesis gear, THEY ALL use SAME idiotic solder-in batteries, to use a coin-cell (3V BR/CR2325) sized battery HOLDER, then every five years or so I just “pop the top” (so to speak) on all my gear and replace the batteries and that older makes it go a lot faster. I also blow out the dust, check connections, caps., etc. (why wait for trouble).

Good Luck.
Larry

Thanks for the advice and info, Larry. I also read about Sonar X3 improving a lot on X2, which was quite glitchy, as you've both mentioned. Why do I have X2? Because it was free for me. I'll see what I can do about getting X3.

It's good to know the Nektar Impact LX keyboard will connect directly to USB; my laptop is a performance laptop (Intel Core i7 processor) and it has at least 4 USB ports. So, using 2 of those ports for the Alesis & Nektar ought to work fine, with no major latency issues?

It's also good to know about the Alesis internal battery probably on its last legs, the one in the Korg M1 had to be replaced, too. I'll have to look into that.

At this point I wouldn't try to find Sonar X3 - it would probably be pirated or cost you as much as buying current Sonar Artist or better.

Are you buying BIAB? If so, it comes with Real-Band which may be all you need as a DAW and you'll love BIAB!

BTW if you ARE considering BIAB - you may want to wait 6-8 weeks - PG tends to release the NEW PC version's around then.

If money is an issue and you ARE NOT considering BIAB then you may only need something like Cakewalk's Music Creator 7 (MC7 - sold here for $49), you already familiar with how Cakewalk's DAW's work and MC7, while TRACK limited, is very similar to recent Sonar releases.

or if you want an unrestricted DAW, inexpensive look at Reaper ($60) - a lot of folks here swear by it.

No matter what, good luck

Larry


PS you may want to to go find (eBay is best place) the Alesis 512 RAM card for you QS8 it has 8 banks of additional patches and a lot are very good!


EDIT

Just to clarify re: Sonar's: When I commented I thought you meant Sonar XL 2 (which was released around 2003) and you were looking to upgrade to Sonar 3 (released ~2004). So my mistake and that's why I mentioned it would be probably pirated. But even upon reflection that you DID Mean X2 (released ~2012) same comments still apply: At this point I would still look to current Sonar.

Hello and welcome to the forum. There is a hardware solution for your problem. It is called a midi merger. You can find both active and passive midi merger boxes. ++ This One ++ is a passive (non-powered) 2 in - 1 out midi merger box by Midi solutions. Click on their logo at the top of the page and you will see other products they offer. Do an internet search on the term "midi merger" and you'll find there are other manufacturers offering similar products.

Thanks for the information, guys. Well, last night I researched a number of 49-key controller keyboards and weighed the pros & cons. I looked at the Alesis VI49, Novation Launchkey 49 and Nektar Impact LX49 (older version without the rave lighting). Those were the only models in my $250-ish CAD budget.

Alesis VI49: Pros - Aftertouch, tons of pads, has MIDI out. Cons - No sliders and from what I could find, limited or pain-in-the-a$$ integration with DAW software. Lots of complaints about this.

Novation Launchkey 49: Pros - Lots of pads, sliders, excellent DAW integration...EXCEPT for Sonar. Big con. I was surprised and disappointed to learn this model won't work with Sonar, otherwise I would've gone with this one. No MIDI out or aftertouch.

Nektar Impact LX49: Pros - Excellent integration with all major DAW software, has sliders. Cons - no MIDI out or aftertouch.

So I went full circle and back to the Nektar board, and bought that one. I liked features of the other models, especially the aftertouch and MIDI out of the Alesis, but after reading about the difficulties people had trying to get it to work with Sonar (or any DAW for that matter) and after reading the Novation had zero support for Sonar, the only choice was the Nektar.

The MIDI merge option Jim mentioned is a good possibility. All I really want to do with the Nektar is control DAW software and use the Alesis QS8 to do most of the playing. Will I be able to use the Nektar's DAW controls (like pressing Record/Playback), and begin playing with the QS8, or will that require MIDI merging? Please excuse my ignorance, this is my first foray into multi-keyboard recording.

I was thinking about this device for merging MIDI inputs from the Nextar Impact LX49 and Alesis QS88, but I don't see how it can be connected properly...as the LX49 doesn't have a MIDI port, it connects to the computer with a MIDI/USB adapter cable...

Jim/Coelacanth

The MIDI merger will NOT work with the Nektar becasue the Nektars mentioned are USB I/O only, they have no 5-pin DIN MIDI connections to plug into the MIDI Merger.

So the QS8 MIDI data stream cannot be "merged" with Nektar data stream external from a PC (inside the PC the can be merged with SW like MIDI OX)

Larry

Thank you, Larry. I guess it's not a real concern because it (merging) can be done via software. I've ordered the Roland MIDI-to-USB adapter cable and should receive it about the same time as the Nektar Impact LX49. I'm excited to connect everything up and play around in Sonar.

All the help & advice is much appreciated!

The ports have nothing to do with latency. The big thing that Apple has over Windows for DAW work is Core Audio. It's built into Mac's. Windows needs help because the built in WDM driver has like a half second latency which is horrible. To get good latency you need an ASIO driver. Most get ASIO with a good audio/midi interface but that may not be necessary. Lots of folks get good results with the free ASIO4ALL. Just google it and give it a shot.

Bob

Hi Larry,

You mentioned a new BIAB version coming out in 6-8 weeks ?
I am guessing that would be the 2017 version .., and you also mentioned 'PC' , by this are you specifically referring to windows only ?


If so .., does the new 2017 Mac version get released independently , ie: at a different time than the windows release ?

I am asking this Larry, as I am also planning to buy BIAB audiophile (for MAC) , but I'd hate to spend money on the high cost price the 2016 Audiophile version - and then see PG release the 2017 version released soon after.

Any idea when we will see a 2017 version release for Mac ?

Cheers

If history is again followed, the next PC version only would be released sometime in December. The corresponding Mac version would be released later next spring. There is no guarantee of an update, or that this schedule will be followed. If you buy within 30 days of a new release, PG Music should work with you on converting to the new release. Again, this generous practice is not guaranteed to continue. The dates of new releases are not announced in advance.

Thank you Matt for your reply ..,

As I am after the Mac version .., December at least is not long to wait (ie; when 2017 win version is released)
..., to see what new features etc are added to the upcoming 2017 .

This will give me a good indication of whether to wait / hang out for the 2017 version (or not) as for me the Audiophile upgrade price to a newer version is rather expensive .

.., Hopefully PG start advertising (very soon) a few teaser pre-sales video of what to expect with the new version .., that seems to be the marketing angle most developers take these days ?

Hopefully the PG coding guys have now come up to speed a bit quicker this year for what is required to code BIAB to the MAC platform and also add the same features equally to the Mac version.

( I am basing this assumption on the current 2016 mac/windows versions , as they are now virtually the same , as opposed to the previous versions in years gone by where there were big differences between the win & Mac versions .)

Thread hijack...SFG, this topic isn't about BIAB.

Thanks jazzmammal for the info on ASIO4All. I'll look into that.

1. Agree with Jazmammal on ASIO4ALL for AUDIO recording with no latency. But to be clear until that was mentioned we had been talking about ONLY getting MIDI data into (and maybe out of) the PC. ASIO, while not completely unrelated, I don't want you to conflate MIDI data with AUDIO data and AUDIO recording.

What ASIO4ALL ,or any good native ASIO, driver does is allow you to hit a MIDI note somewhere like an external keyboard (e.g.,QS8), internal virtual MIDI keyboard of some kind, or simply playback a MIDI file and "hear" the audio generated by a PC MIDI sound source (a virtual synth like Kontakt or SampleTank or Windows GS wavetable) (we are NOT taking about what you hear in, or generated by, the QS8) in NEAR real-time.

Here "near" is a relative term: Ideally will only be a few milliseconds to AROUND less than 10'ish (give or take). Some/most people cannot tolerate that much delay (10 ms) and prefer less noticeable (<< 10 MS) between striking a MIDI note and hearing it play (via a virtual MIDI sound source) but the amount of acceptable delay is individually and situationally dependent.

2. Matt is correct in reigning in my estimate of release (or not). I should have been more CLEAR: PG may, or MAY NOT, release a new PC based BIAB this year, or next year, or never again. BUT HISTORICALLY, for PC's, it has always been around the holiday season, even if they did a summer release that year. I don't work for PG so I have no idea if a new version is forthcoming ever again.


3. Finally, to be fair to SMG I brought up the BIAB "topic" in my first post to your first post and I again mentioned BIAB in my last post TO YOU (in case, you were thinking about it) SMG was really just following-up on my comment, this is a PG forum after all, even if this is the "Off Topic" area.

Good luck and I hope you get every thing hooked up and working.

Larry

sorry dude , chill - no need to be oversensitive,

I didn't realise you had perhaps considered your question was not answered well enough .

.., and that my simple question directed to a poster regarding a point 'they made' was making it so difficult for you to get your answer ..,

Asio4all is sometimes the only answer for certain equipment combinations, but keep in mind it is not ASIO; it's WDM with a wrapper that makes it work like ASIO. If your equipment has its own ASIO driver, you should always try to make that work.

No worries, I just didn't want the topic straying off-tangent.

I'm glad Larry brought up the point of AUDIO recording/playback, because I have a question about that. As discussed, I'll be connecting the Alesis QS8 to the laptop via Roland's UM-ONE MK2 MIDI-to-USB adapter, and the Nektar LX49 to a second USB port using it's included USB adapter. To my knowledge, that will route the MIDI data to/from the laptop, but I also want to record the audio of the various instruments I'll be controlling from those keyboards (Sonar X3/Rhapsody/Addictive Drums and eventually others). Will I need a separate USB audio I/O interface or are those USB connections all I need? This particular laptop has no Mic input and I would rather not use one if it existed, anyway because it's low-quality and Mono.

Thanks again for the help and pardon the ignorance.

All the audio generated INTERNALLY by laptop (e.g., Additive drums, TTS-1 GM synth that comes with Sonar, other synths) you need nothing - just your DAW SW or other audio SW. You should ALREADY be able to hear and record that stuff on the laptop before you even get the QS8 or Nektar or any external HW.

However, if you want to bring audio from QS8, or other external audio sources, into the laptop and record, then YES you may need something.

Maybe all you need is a stereo 1/4" to mini 1/8" cable or adapter plug. Since the QS8 ONLY has 1/4" audio out's and you laptop audio in (assuming you have one like a Mic-in but I have no idea about you particular laptop. Does it have a Mic or line level in? If only mic does it allow both mic level signals and line level signals since you are bringing in a line level (-10db) from QS8 and plugging it into a a MIC level input which is MUCH More sensitive so you need to attenuate that internal at laptop)

Best bet is to get a USB audio box - you can expect a few "religious-like-fervor" suggestions from others here about "this" or "that" USB audio I/O boxes.

I'm NOT advocating the below sellers Sweetwater or Kraft Music - just showing what you want to look at. I've bought from BOTH, as well as Amazon, Musicians Friend, Guitar Center, American musical supply, MIDI world, and other - but by far over last 30 years I buy MOST HW, keyboards, guitars, amps, ... at one local store.

http://www.sweetwater.com/c695--USB_Audio_Interfaces

http://www.kraftmusic.com/live-sound-recording/interfaces/

Good Luck

Larry

Thank you Larry, that answers my question. I can record software audio in Sonar or various VST's without an audio recording interface...but I need the interface if I want to record the voices built-in to the QS8. I probably won't need to do that, at least initially...I'm more interested in seeing what's available in the software.

My laptop doesn't seem to have a Mic input so I'd need to buy a USB audio interface, when that time comes. I'd use the two 1/4" audio outs from the QS8. Might need 1/4"-to-RCA adapters, but that depends on the USB audio interface I end up choosing.

If you tell us exactly how many MIDI and audio inputs you need and your price range we may be able to help you choose an USB audio interface.

Hi Mario,

All I really need is one set of RCA inputs and one set out. I suppose a Mic input might come in handy one day, but all I'm planning on doing for the near future is record from the Alesis QS8 and record software synths controlled by the Alesis & Nektar. I'd like Mic preamp, powered (not just USB power) and low latency to be important features.

I've seem some Behringer units under $70 CAD that look like they'd do the trick...any other recommendations?