today's hearing test shows i have normal hearing at 1k, mild loss (30db) at 2k and moderate loss (60db)at 4k with my right ear slightly worse at 8k.

i haven't noticed any problems listening to commercial recordings on phones or speakers and mixes i did a few years ago still sound right. no need to turn up the treble control on the hifi.

for every day use i will be fitted with hearing aids so that my wife's mumbling becomes intelligible speech but i need some help from the forum.

if i continue to mix (without hearing aids) on headphones and check on speakers, bearing in mind commercial recordings still sound good - and that's what i'll be aiming for - can anyone advise me? i haven't found a need to increase top end eq on any recent mixes so can anyone advise me? do i need to do anything different for my mixes to sound good to people without hearing loss?

Your loss of frequencies happened over time. So your brain had time to adjust .. there likely wasn't a sudden difference which would make a true comparison much easier.

A bit of a false comparison is that you are saying commercial music sounds fine and comparable to yours .. well yeah, it should, as you are listening to the commercial music with the same ears, so I would expect this result (see above) .. your brain has had time to adapt.

You didn't go into detail on the hearing aids you bought; do they adjust for your frequency deficiencies, or do they just make things louder?

I personally have a slight dip at 5-8 kHz (nowhere near the 30 dB you mentioned) .. but I am aware of it and use meters to visually make sure I don't over adjust 'for me'.

My best friend bought very expensive hearing aids that compensate for his frequency loss (much more severe than mine), which I've thought about doing, but over time I've realized his hearing aids may be 'over compensating'. So I offer no advice there.

Your best bet is probably to let other people listen to your stuff and get input, then guide yourself from this input with all things considered (including your known loss). And use meters to verify.

It ain't going to get better (hearing doesn't do that very well). But you certainly can learn to deal with it and adjust.

Sorry to hear this, Bob.

I've made money for six decades transcribing music, and rely on my good ears. I have the 'father's family dip' in hearing mid-frequency, but only in one ear, so I guess I never notice a problem. My high frequency hearing is surprisingly good considering all the bands I've played in front of.

I think there is someone on this forum who is an audiologist. I was even about to guess it was rharv, and he gave some great advice. I'm sure you'll get some more thoughts.

Hi Bob,
I think TONAL BALANCE CONTROL From Izotope would help you greatly.
They have analyised thousands of Industry standard songs over all Genres and over all frequencies.So you pick a genre close to your song and it will tell you real time whether your song is lacking in one area of the frequencey spectrum or has to much in another area.You then adjust your song plugins to balance your mix out to an Industry standard level.This is good for everyone because you dont have to fully rely on your ears especially if you have great experience of what makes bassy sound and what makes high end etc .I really love this product also its amazing urs Hugh

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/tonal-balance-control-2.html

Matt,
I am not an audiologist.
I have consulted with a few, but .. my suggestion/advice should be taken with a grain of salt

Maybe you were thinking of RockStarNot, who is also not an audiologist, but works more in that field and could probably provide much more qualified/empirical advice than I ..

thanks for the advice so far but $199 for tonal balance control is out of my league. anyone know any alternatives?

updates as i go along and i'll keep you all informed. i have to wait for my audiology hearing fitting before i get full details of what the hearing aids will do and if they can be 'tuned' to simply boost the frequencies i am missing.

nice to know there are friendly people here!

There are hearing aids that use Bluetooth communication and smart apps to make real time setting adjustments. Some apps store presets for use in particular situations.

Hi Bob, worry not too much. Many people here have some form of hearing loss and lots of us wear hearing aids. I’ve had hearing aids for almost 40 years now. Slowly over time it got worse and tinnitus increased. However tools got better.

If I use headphones I cannot wear hearing aids. When I mix I use Izotope Tonal Balance Control and it helps. With hearing aids in I tend to get too bass heavy and Tonal Balance Control shows this.

I see you cannot justify Tonal Balance Control, never mind there are other good analysers that will do similar. Melda Productions analyser (Manalyzer) is quite good and has several presets that show roughly where a mix should be. Voxengo Span is another good analyser, takes a bit more getting to know however. Both the Melda and Voxengo analysers are free.

The Melda has a graph that shows where a mix should be according to the genre you’re mixing to as really the Tonal Balance Control does. The real difference is that Tonal Balance Control is a bit easier to follow IMHO.

Just some thoughts but worry not too much.

Take care
Tony.

The depth of knowledge and experience on this site never ceases to ......
So, Bob, does it help for people with no particular knowledge of audio
to simply listen to you songs and comment? If I knew what to listen for,
I'll help in any way I can.

thanks - this is getting better and better. one thing i do have is izotope elements suite and i gave the ozone elements it's first run today (i've not been seriously mixing for a while). it certainly seemed to liven up the mix i had. what i'm afraid of is overcompensating to make a mix seem right to me but not right for other people.

thanks for the advice on Manalyser and Span i'll see how they work. my new hearing aids will arrive shortly but my 'fitting' is not till the end of the month and i'm not sure what that entails. i presume the audiologist has programmed them to my particular needs.

i think i may be heading for two scenarios - firstly real life with hearing aids and musical life without hearing aids trusting to my ears as they are with help from meters and a double check from musician friends (and maybe forumites) on the final mixes.

these days playing live is mainly acoustic with friends so that will probably be with the aids in.

thank you all for your help and encouragement.

Bob, over the years I’ve had many pairs of Really expensive high end hearing aids. Most ended up in the bottom drawer or just under the socks. They were totally uncomfortable.

Here in Australia we olde pensioners get free hearing aids so I lined up yet again. The hearing aids I was given are external (behind the ears). These have a really small bit that go into the ear. Around the into ear part is a really soft plastic thing that holds them snug in the ear. They are totally comfortable, so much so they go in when I wake up and stay in most of the time. The biggest issue is they are that comfortable the risk of wearing them into the shower is there. Hearing aids do not cope with swimming or showering.

I do take them out when performing. I always did. They distort or actually cut out sounds over a certain level. You soon get used to the idea.

It is vital the aids are totally comfortable. Get comfort over looks and/or features is my advice.

Tony

Part of Hugh2's advice on how Tonal Balance works can be used in a manual way. Find a CD or online recording of a popular song that's in the same genre of what the song you're mixing is. When you start getting in the final parts of mixing, you can play that reference song and then yours and try and make the instrument balances and EQ of your song sound as close to the reference as possible. After you do a few rounds of tweaking you should be close to a good sounding song.

thanks for the new advice.

teunis, your aids sound like the ones i'm getting from the National Health Service. i'll be using them for day to day situations (although the videos they've sent me tell me i'll be delighted to hear things like birdsong again which i can hear perfectly!) do you find that your hearing has changed when you take them out? i'm happy with the way i've been mixing so far and with all the help i'm getting here that's how i'm going to continue. however the intro videos tell me that to get used to the aids will take about eight weeks while my brain 'retrains'. retraining to use the aids is fine but i don't want to retrain my brain to hear things differently without the aids.

do you hear the way you used to when you take them out?

Yep you’ll hear things you didn’t know still existed. Initially birds for example could even give you a fright. Traffic does become scary. Initially driving a car totally changed with speed being lowered. The thing I first noticed was the sound of my neck on the collar of my shirt. Most of this goes away very quickly.

But as was said earlier by someone else. The loss was probably fairly gradual and really did not have as much affect on mixing as you think. I mix with the aids in then take them out and also listen with headphones. I also realise most people I play to have significant hearing loss (a lot of them don’t know). I usually play to aged people.

Tony

My hearing issues started 40 years ago. Too many concerts and festivals in the 60's and 70's. Too many band years. Too much stupid behavior using power equipment sans good hearing protection. An audiologist told me 9 years ago told me that my hearing loss was too profound in the upper frequencies to correct or even enhance. I got the impression she had been out of school for about 50 years or so

I'm stubborn so I sought out and eventually found an outstanding audiologist eight years ago. She's young, research oriented and on the cusp of technology. She was fascinated by my understanding of EQ, compression, etc. Together we worked out three custom programs for my aids. She's sorta taken me on as a research project! One of those three is just for mixing. I won't go into the details of it but I will say she changed my life. I hear birds, crickets, tree frogs, leaves crushing beneath my mountain bike tires AND I hear cymbals, rides, hi-hats well enough to mix. Without the aids I can't hear music well enough to bother turning it on and I would have to use close captioning on tv. So with that technology and, of course, Janice's golden ears (she can hear a humming bird peep when inside the house with the windows closed) I can mix, master and enjoy so many more things.

I only suggest that if you have a deficiency don't go cheap trying to improve it. Mail order aids and even aids from an audiologist who doesn't regularly work closely with you are at best minimally effective and at worst damn irritating.

Pardon the ramble.

Bud

quick update and another round of thank yous. my hearing aids have arrived and although my online consultation isn't till the end of the month, the instructions say to try using them if i feel confident.

as Teunis said some sounds i had forgotten or at least at the volume the aids now render them, mouse clicks being a good example.

having listened to old mixes with and without i wouldn't actually change much. the aids add a little 'crispness' but i'm not sure i'd change the basic mix. same with commercial tracks. anyway when i talk to the audiologist i'll check what the aids are programmed to do. if they simply compensate for the hearing loss frequencies well and good, but if they overcompensate i'll know that with the aids what i'm hearing is over toppy and will just mix as normal without.

but all is well so far and i'm very grateful for help and advice received to date

As I mentioned there is much more to it than that ... at least for me. High end aids can be programmed in multiple ways to help you. Multi-band eq and compression, the left and right aid communicating via bluetooth, the ability to analyze the sonic environment and adapt and phone apps to let you change the program as needed. Only you know what sounds "right" and that requires communicating with an audiologist beyond simply boosting some high f and leaving it at that. A lot of audiologists tend to focus on manipulating variables that relates to speech. That's fine. But I need to hear a ride, a high hat, a kick drum click, vocal sibilance, the ring of a snare, squeaks on an acoustic guitar, etc.

Pardon the ramble...it's just that my audiologist literally changed my life. I suspect my loss is greater than yours so I can likely be ignored

Bud

What aids are you using and what was the cost? I have high freq loss in the 4k range....and tinnitus in that same range. Sounds like crickets. I've never been bothered by the tinnitus. But it does mask the highs. I find I have to pay attention to my mixes lest they become too crispy on the top end for normal listeners.

Too many really, really loud bands, and gunfire without using the proper protections.

I just ordered a set of Axil buds..... good noise reduction and enhancement to 6x as well as bluetooth music from the phone. Can run either of the 3 modes or any combination. Figured I'd give it a try.

Hi Bob!
Sorry about your hearing loss, I can relate. In fact, I got fit with my first aids at age 5, and I'm now 60. I'm sure no one remembers this as I don't frequent the forum very, ah, frequently...and here we are discussing sonic frequencies...but my handle stands for Deaf In One Ear Can't Hear Out Of The Other ...DIOECHOOTO

Aaanyhoo...lots of good advice here already, but I thought I would chime in, at risk of triggering some tinnitus...since I have had similar concerns over mixing.

I recently bought a new Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and it came with a vst3 called "Balancer", and it's pretty cool because apparently it is programmed with some sort of AI that "learns" as you go. But in the end it's really just another spectral analyzer such as those that have already been recommended.

And this is what I really wanted to mention: the Focusrite interface I used previously was a Saffire, and it came with "mixer control" software that was really powerful, so powerful that I never learned to use even a small fraction of it's capability (nor did I have need to), but what I did use a LOT was this feature called VRM, virtual reference monitoring. What this supposedly does is change the characteristics of the sound as if it were being played through any of a large menu of setups. Studios setups with various monitors, bedroom studio, 1980's living room "stereo", Flat screen tv, boombox...you name it! I don't know how helpful it really was to me, but I do know it SEEMED very helpful to have that capability. What it allows is for you to hear your mix from all kinds of different perspectives, including from different places in "the room". Amazing.

So I don't know if there is anything else out there quite like that, but I really miss it, as it doesn't work with my new Focusrite.

I just thought I would put that out there, FWIW.

BTW My very small BTE (behind the ear) hearing aids do work with headphones on over them, they are quite comfortable and feedback is not a problem. Because they are digital I have a few different programs, and so for music I use a "pure" program that has no antifeedback or "speech algorithm" or noise reduction or anything (and yet they still don't feedback!), as part of feedback foiling program is it creates an oscillation, thus short circuiting the feedback loop, but it sounds crappy as it creates a tremelo effect. Any of those features could cause unwanted artifacts, as I understand it.

Happy music making, Bob!

Bob,

If you have your hearing loss curves, I have successfully set up some stacked 31 band EQ VST plug-ins for folks for them to listen with flat response headphones and with their hearing aids not in their ears.

I can show you how to do it, but you need a pretty decent pair of headphones. And a DAW that will allow you to put several instances of EQ VST in series.

Significant notches like the typical 4kHz gunfire noise induced loss are a little more difficult to deal with in this technique.

No promises on a miracle solution but I’ve helped several people with this in the past.

Hit me up with a PM if you want to get started.

The brand is Oticon. The brand on high end aids is not IMO as important as having an audiologist work with you to program them and change the programs when needed. They are expensive, yes, but that frequent consultation has to be factored in. BTW, I have tinnitus also. Mine is a 6-8k “teapot” sound and is a function of target practice many years ago, 60’s festivals/concerts and small engine equipment.

Oh, my audiologist limits me to 80 dB exposure. So no live music. I have a phone app to check db’s when listening to music, etc. She says it’s to keep what I’ve got

Bud

Bob,

Just so you know I'm not blowing smoke - I worked for Westone labs for 5 years. I ran the hearing protection product line business the last 2. Westone is one of the largest suppliers to the hearing aid industry with custom fit earpieces and audiology supplies. They also invented in-ear monitors, designed and manufactured the first models of in-ear monitors by Shure and Ultimate Ears.

If you have a good set of closed back headphones, I can almost assure you the method I will take you through will give you significantly more satisfaction listening to music than through your hearing aids. If you have a good set of in-ear monitors, it will be even better.

Our comptroller had a significant mis-matched hearing loss (significantly different losses left vs. right ear). I did this for him for several of his favorite CDs (I re-recorded them going through the 'upside down HL curve EQ sets' that I created from his HL curves.

He did not have a DAW, though I showed him how to set everything up in Tracktion - the only truly free DAW at the time - so that he could go through his CD collection and re-record his collection specifically for headphone listening for him.

He loved it - said it moved him to tears. It's a lot of work to get it tweaked in, but if you understand how to use a graphic EQ and have a DAW that will let you apply separate right and left graphic EQs in series, it can be very worth it.

This is a technique that you will use WITHOUT your hearing aids. Unfortunately even very high end models do not have the processing power dedicated to music (even though you probably have several 'programs' for music listening) nor fidelity in the speakers used, to give satisfaction listening to music.

I will do this for free, if you would like. Send me a PM

wow, thanks Rockstar and Janice and Bud. I'm still awaiting my next consultation when i'll find exactly what my hearing aids are programmed for.

good news is that they are Oticon like Bud's although being National Health Service ones they may be lower spec.

I'll be in touch once i know more about the aids Rockstar but i'm overwhelmed by the support i'm getting.

just a quick update re Bud's comments. i soloed a realdrums track and listened without hearing aids. the high hat was there and so were the cymbals, but with the aids the high hat was better balanced - more volume but not excessive and the cymbals more vibrant.

with all the help i'm getting i'm beginning to feel a lot happier and less anxious. thanks guys!

Bob, any of the major hearing aid companies the NHS will have will have similar capabilities. This includes all the Scandinavian, German and Swiss based companies, and Starkey from the USA.

In order for me to do what I'm speaking of, get your Hearing Loss curves for each ear. HL curves for short.

I had my consultation with the audiologist today. I asked some basic questions but in essence these digital hearing aids have been programmed to boost the frequencies where my hearing is affected with the appropriate db boost for the different frequency bands. Each ear is programmed separately.

Basically, the audiologist says when i listen to music i will be hearing near enough what a normally hearing person hears.

As my hearing loss is mild to moderate the aids are not programmed too drastically. Apparently the big problem with aids and music is that when aids need to accommodate more severe hearing loss they can assume part of the music in some frequencies is background noise and suppress it - hence the need some times for a music setting. I don't need that as the problem won't arise.

I have to say that now i'm used to the hearing aids commercial tracks sound better - crisper but not over bright and with things such as high hats more to the fore rather than lost. My own mixes too sound better but as good as the mixes are they don't make up for lack of talent.

My biggest problem is my lack of musical ability not my ears. However thank you to everyone who posted advice and helped me through a worrying period. Thank you all not just for the technical advice but the friendliness and concern from all of you.

I thought i'd resurrect this thread to let everyone who gave me such good advice and encouragement know how i'm doing.

as someone said above i had not noticed the decline in my hearing. Commercial tracks do sound better as mentioned in the previous post. when i listen first thing in the morning without my aids i notice just how much i was missing.

my own mixes do sound better and i don't feel the need for exciter plugins as much as i used to. i realize i was trying to compensate for my ears not correct a genuinely dull mix. now just a touch (based on Matt's invaluable advice to turn it up until you can hear it then back off!) is all i use.

the lack of talent is still a problem but i thought all of you who were so kind, helpful and encouraging would like to know how things are progressing.

Some great info in this thread! It's something I've been concerned about myself, as I have some tinnitus (hereditary, thanks Dad) up in the 8-9khz region. I still have relatively normal hearing range for my age at least, but I've been trying to take care of my ears over the last half decade, trying to limit anything over 80db or wearing ear plugs and in-ear monitors.

I use an iPhone app to check exposure. My audiologist said to not exceed 80db avg at any time if I want to retain what’s left of my hearing.

There are several high rated accurate apps available. I also have it on my Apple Watch.

Bud

Bob, thanks for giving us an update. The information in this thread could be helpful to anyone, though there is a higher probability musicians may benefit more than most.

The advice Bob said I have given is not in this thread, I think, so I’ll summarize it here. When I use a plug-in, such as an exciter Bob mentioned, my general guideline is to turn up the plugin until I can just hear its effects, and then back off halfway.

FYI. Unless you have a calibration procedure for your particular phone model and the response curve of the mics in your phone are known, the accuracy of these apps is nearly useless for protecting your hearing from further loss. Reference NIOSH reports from the 2014 NHCA conference for the pitfalls of trusting apps. You would be much farther ahead using an inexpensive SPL meter that has a known calibration. Parts Express and Amazon have some rather inexpensive ones that will be much more accurate than your phone app

Old data. Six years in tech world development is enormous - 2014 from a tech perspective is the ice age Some of the latest apps are used in a variety of professional applications. Simply search on decibel meters for IOS and include 2020 in the search.

Bud

I have a hearing aid (from hearing aid store) for my right ear only (irreversible nerve damage caused by fevers as a toddler). I tried mixing with the aid in and it didn't help at all. I've played gigs with it in as well, doesn't really help. The only reason I got it was to hear music more accurately, so it was a little bit of a letdown. So now it's just a tool I use during my day job for important meetings.

sorry to hear that matthewfox. my hearing is not due to nerve damage - just age related frequency loss and that is compensated for by the aids which boost the lost frequencies. i haven't actually 'lost' them but the volume at which i hear them has declined.

if your left ear is ok then probably you can hear all the frequencies just in mono!

does the aid make any difference at all? has your audiologist checked the aid settings?

i play with a friend who has lost the hearing in one ear and he seems to get on fine playing and recording but he had quite a struggle to get his expensove hearing aids working

Bud I am just seeing your reply. You have made an erroneous assumption that time somehow changes the need for calibration for accuracy. It does not. Now, if any of the apps you may be using ask for the model of phone you are using them there is a small hope that the app is using a general calibration file for the phone model’s microphone. If not then it is a crap shoot. Measuring SPL has been part of my profession for 30+ years. Needing to know the sensitivity of the microphone and a/d converter does not change with Moore’s law.

Without that information, the reading on the app is bogus.

I have several spl and spectral analysis apps on my phone but when I need to know the actual levels I use a measurement mic and it’s calibration file that is tied to its s/n. Not too expensive from parts express.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-iMM-6-iDevice-Calibrated-Microphone-390-810

I use it with the Studio Six suite of acoustics measurement apps.