Rather than 1 post for the whole week as things currently seem to be, to revitalize PG we need that 2024 Biab Live Arranger and the whole new 2024 BBPlugin/PluginStandalone as new products and a draw card for a whole new audience. There was talk about big plans for RealBand but they would have to be very BIG indeed to sort it out, just let's hope for quantum leaps, that PG takes things above and beyond their old thinking and following behind.

Reatrack parece interessante e faz excelente integração com o Reaper. Entretanto poderia crescer muito se tivesse um arquivo instalador que facilitasse o setup do programa.

ReaTrak_ver.47.ReaperConfigZip é uma versão antiga, completamente desatualizada.

Google translation from Portuguese:

This is one script now
Download: ReaTrak-instant-trak-creator-gui.zip
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=252609



I am working on an easier way for BiaB injector.

..

Sorry, late to this - not trying to be obtuse, but the point of this is?

Don't get me wrong, it looks REALLY interesting and I want to try and find out more, but I am not grasping the significance of it all.

Please Santa Gannon, let's hope we see these new products in a few weeks time !

I'm a big fan of keyboard arrangers but the one difference is they are restricted to the main style you select and then 2 to 4 variations by hitting a button while you're playing. But it is a lot of fun if you have something like the Korg PA4X like I do. The sound quality and styles are really good. You pick a style and then play a chord in your left hand. The arranger keeps playing that chord until you change it. I get that.

Now, what is the main purpose of Biab, what is one of the biggest selling points? It gives you a different version of the arrangement every time you hit play! And how does it do that? It does it by creating the arrangement first after you hit play. You don't hear the arrangement until it's finished generating it. That makes a real time arranger function basically impossible because an arranger is following what you play with no preplanned arrangement. Where would Biab get the 8 bar bridge with a variation change for example if you haven't loaded it in yet?

Say you're using Real Tracks which most of us use. The RT's can be one bar, or several bars. You want to trigger a 4 bar RT while playing live but the next chord is a 2 bar turnaround? How could Biab know you're going to do that and instantly give you a 2 bar RT instead of the 4 bar one you're current using with that first chord? Impossible unless you set it up first which takes the live playing part off the table.

What you're asking goes against everything PG Music stands for because for 30 years Biab has been the only music production software that doesn't give you prerecorded backing tracks. Biab gives you a realistic band to play along with that has little differences in each verse or chorus but you don't lead it, you play along with it after the song has been created. Most of us do not want to hear the exact same licks and phrasing over and over and over.

Bob

"What you're asking goes against everything PG Music stands for"

Bob, with all respects, I believe you didn't grasp the idea offered. When you load a style to modern arranggers, it loads both MIDI and Audio data. You simply trigger sections that are audio loops to output, while MIDI counterpart is numerically sends data to sound engine
Physical arrangers are software based things in a physical "body" with tactile keys and buttons.
Have you tried things like Kontakt Session Guitar series? A similar idea to Real Tracks. Can be easily triggered / transposed with your weighted keys controller and variations assigned to your favorite buttons It doesn't know what you will hit next, but has algorythm in place for smooth / natural transitions.

"what is the main purpose of Biab, what is one of the biggest selling points? It gives you a different version of the arrangement every time you hit play!"

Well, yes and no.. when you assembling/composing. But that should not be viewed as a limiting or negative factor if one day it would adopt live arranger functions. Contrary, variation would allow for more creative uses. Like with all things in life (including styles) some are great and some are so so. Likely, some will not sound good in "arranger" mode, and would have to be adjusted.

"Impossible unless you set it up first which takes the live playing part off the table"
Sure. Do you use styles straight out of your arranger, or you modify them somewhat"?
Future Xtraexrta 500 arranger compatible styles pack, taylored for live playing comes to mind.

Bottom line, it's likely not a very easy task, but not impossible. If sucessful, BIAB could become a pioneer in the game as it has the needed content and knows a thing or two about smooth transitions. Surely this will bring completely different crowd of live players to PGmusic world. Not everyone has $5k to spend on modern physical arranger.

P.S. Peter Gannon confirmed quite a few things in the wishlist that are comming to 2024, but I don't believe live arranger function was among them, however, if I remember correctly, it was mentioned that direct read from disk was on the table. If it will come to 2024 and works well, that would be the key element for future live arranger if I understand concept well myself

I think that's not quite correct. RealTracks are definitely prerecorded backing tracks.

Separately, based on a played chord, MIDI output patterns can be generated in milliseconds, perhaps nanoseconds.

Given the right processing power, I believe that Arranger based performances are achievable.

I agree with jazzmammal, it's a crazy idea just like RealDrum Stems ! Nah, Stems and Live Arranger is crazy man talk, let's stick with that Midi Ma !

musocity,
Bob (you are also Bob, right?) has a point on generative variation. No need to poke at him, just explain. Arrangers are more predictable, and they should be. You don't want "suprises" when you play live. Meaning, if one day arranger option will be a reality, styles to fit arranger would have to be edited by PG or user to sound predictable every time. To solve that, hypothetical arranger PG style could look something like a large project with tracks "frozen" so it doesn't randomize content on trigger (chord change/section).
And to replace (generative variation) of specific part, a user would have to use Partial Regeneration function to make certain instruments to play differently on specific chord(s) and that is a very manual task, considering that initial results are a randomized set. Arranger styles would have to be curated by PGmusic (picking out/generating best per chord sections), as most people interested in arranger would expect more or less flawless expierence "out of the box". So in my view that is the biggest devil in the details.

I have no problem with adding a live arranger function to BIAB. I think the question is more about what would be the priority for doing that. It certainly has been requested enough. But what would you rather PG Music works on?

Biab will have way more variations than a midi style with limited repetitive patterns, it would have more than the current arrangers that now use real audio instruments and drums.
"what would you rather PG Music works on?" fixing Mac all the time when it breaks because of apple changing things.
LOL I was talking to a software developer that has a Win version only that is used with Crossover or WineSkin on Mac, and I said you are lucky as you would need to be reprogramming a native Mac app every time apple changes things on a weekly basis ! he said: "At last someone who totally understands why the only Macs we are interested in come with fries and a coke ;-)"
If PG don't make it I can make it and sell it (I'm sure it would be very popular and not cost 5K) but then PG is not getting the sales, am I here to do that or am I here to make Biab and PG better, what have I done for all these years ?
So don't procrastinate too long as other companies read posts and ideas. When I posted some time back I said don't snooze as you will see a live arranger keyboard with realtracks out soon, and sure enough that is exactly what happened while I deleted my last account and left the forum.

A current midi keyboard style/midi Full Screen

Matt,
"But what would you rather PG Music works on?"

Step approach. From my memory Peter G. mentioned that direct read from disk is being looked at for 2024. From what I understand, that supposedly will allow for near instant playback. If that comes to fruition and it works well, that would be a first major step toward live arranger functions.
Even if it will not be as fast as needed for arranger (direct disk read), it will still be an amazing addition, as it will reduce generation times significantly, so all users will benefit.

To give an example. It takes me an average of 6-7 hours to sketch out bones for song in BIAB (finding proper track, song parts, chords, automation, MIDI, partial regeneration etc.) With instant/near instant generation, it will reduce this process to 3-4 hours.

<< Future Xtraexrta 500 arranger compatible styles pack, taylored for live playing comes to mind. >>

This is a great idea and something I think PG Music and users can produce today without any modification or upgrade to the program and will instantly adopt to many existing live arranger functions.

I don't want to interfere with the purpose and course of this discussion. I posted a new forum discussion based on comments, suggestions and ideas you guys have presented in this forum.

I've known for quite some time that Yamaha arranger workstation keyboards have the functions, styles and algorithms to use BIAB midi and RealTrack and BIAB Performance files in a live performance without any issues. There's a lot of knowledge and suggestions you fellows can add to that discussion.

Completely agree. This will be a great improvement whether or not a real-time arranger function (that would need this) is pursued.

Here's a simple video example, these are the actual wma sections that Biab plays after it has decompressed them into RAM.
Reaper is playing all the wma sections of all different files direct from disk (RealTracks and Drum folders on Biab USB 3.0 drive), markers have been added to every beat so transitions will occur on the next beat rather than next measure, so as I input a chord it will go to that chord on the next beat seamlessly:
Video: Smooth-Seek-Markers.mp4
Full Screen

I think I'll just get one off these (in AU$ maybe same in CA$) AudioTrack might as well get one also, what do you reckon a bargain ?
This was long after I showed RealTracks working as a Live Arranger to PG and said to get it out before you see a keyboard with RealTracks (KETRON EVENT - The REAL arranger keyboard!).
Video Demo

Well, for sure, after watching the demo it would be hard to say it's not incredibly impressive.

I believe that BiaB could do this too. Maybe one day?

This is another clip I watched. Bartek Krzemiński is incredibly talented. I can hear Bob James in some of his deliveries. Quite refreshing.

And I do note that these are referenced as 'Real Styles', actual recordings of live artists.

It beats midi but it's way out of my price bracket, all I can afford is a secondhand DigiTech Trio from eBay AU$250
https://digitech.com/dp/trio-plus/
I remember it used the Biab tracks.

Anything is possible...
But think for a minute what I mentioned earlier in this post.

If direct read will be possible in near future, it is only 1/3 of equation. The strongest point of RTs are to be able to produce variation/generation. To make style for arranger sound the "best" (which is also subjective), it would have to be modified significantly to sound identical with Customer "A" and Customer "B". Meaning, all the parts would have to be generated in advanced and the better ones selected and mapped to corresponding arranger section(s), but at the same time they should be user editable as far as particular section / instrument regeneration. So not only it would be possible to regenerate particular "included" instrument track, but to substitute it with RT from another style. And the last 1/3 of equation is very specific interface aimed for live playing.

I am not trying to be a thread buster, I actually think it's a great idea and I support it 100%, but it would require different thinking and muscle power.

Excellent choice!
I have had it since its release in 2017, I have never been disappointed, this tool is absolutely...nice!

Actually are not all keyboard arrangers midi? Just asking

Not according to the presenter. He states that the Ketron Event uses recordings of real musicians, (essentially the same as RealTracks.)

The text reads: " Ketron EVENT is a REAL ARRANGER because it has live musicians on board."

If Ketron is using RTs then great.

But if they are not using RTs then that means they are using their own proprietary software. If Ketron is doing that then other software companies will probably do it or license Ketron's technology. If a software company develops a program similar to BiaB but with a modern interface, having all time signature, etc, etc, then our beloved PGM may be in trouble. YMMV

From my understanding they use slices / short loops / chords - of performances "mapped to midi" as they put it. Almost like a big rompler. Which is not a bad thing if it sounds better than MIDI only arranger.

PGM can definitely accept this challenge, if reading from disk will be successful. But again, styles for this kind of usage would have to be adjusted significantly.

I guess we will find out soon on direct read from disk.

P.S. Mario, it can be made as a skin / view of the plugin & standalone plugin if they will go that route in the future.

As I was typing this, a newsletter email from Yamaha came...
Genos2 is out, and it's on sale for only $5.699

Better grab two!

PG can work all the musical technicality out, if it can be done with their keyboard it can be done with the software.
Event Manual Ketron Event English.pdf

EDIT: Storage
240 GB internal SSD disk (80 GB reserved for System). Optional external SD Card (up to 512 GB).

It's probably worth mention in case people haven't seen it, but there's also the Event X module version. No keyboard, controlled from one's existing MIDI keyboard. Like the Ketron SD90 but with real recordings rather than a MIDI sample player. That said, the SD90 is still very good and 2/3 the price of the Event X.

Was just looking at the Yamaha Genos 2, it says it has a whopping 800 styles, and a level adjust to adjust the room mics recorded with the drums, up or down.
Now imagine if Biab had 800 styles and Stems with adjustable room mics !
LOL I remember years ago suggesting a hardware version of Biab with LCD screen.
Biab Hardware Version
See the Ketron: Storage 240 GB internal SSD disk (80 GB reserved for System)
that could be be just using a minimal Linux for the system ?

OK so PG does this. What do you use to control it? As a keyboard player I know what keyboard controllers cost and a pro level one is over $500 and up and they're not set up for arranger functions, they're set up for EDM/HipHop type stuff. A Yamaha Genos is around $6,000. There are way more guitarists here than keyboard players so you would need a midi guitar controller. They ain't cheap either.

That still doesn't answer my point about the whole thrust of PG's marketing which is the feel of a live does the bass player or any other player play the same part each time? No. Real players change things up the next time they play that song. OTH yes, there are BIAB users who like to freeze tracks and that's good enough for them, they don't mind static tracks For that group, an arranger function could work but still, what do you control it with?

My guess is this isn't happening but I'm not against it, I'm just having a hard time visualizing how it would work.

It's already been done, did you try the Live Region Player ?
Is it playing the same thing each time ?
Did you ever use conductor in Biab ?

Your other name isn't Pipeline is it? Haha. We're not talking third party workarounds here. I'm familiar with Conductor, its clunky in a live setting with a vocalist.

Pipeline as well as Solidrock Haha
Conductor is clunky it only used to work with midi and won't work with RealTracks but Reaper has seamless transitions playing RealTrack source files wma or wav (Smooth Seek), this shows Biab could also be made to Conduct RealTracks smoothly with your keyboard.
We are not talking about third party workarounds we are talking it all being done with the BBPlugin Standalone playing source files direct, I have shown it done and working in Reaper this says that it's certainly doable for PG.
So many things I have shown working years ago come to fruition in PG products.............eventually.

The new Genos2 is a similar price and both sounds and appears spectacular.

Does the Genos2 have Real tracks or just Real drums ?

I believe that we're not actually discussing what BiaB could do now, but what BiaB could deliver in the future.

A future development with 'Arranger' capabilities would surely include the ability to perform different RealTrack or MIDI performances each time. I doubt that they would need to be static repetitions. In fact, the program does that already.

I don't know, but I do know that it sounds pretty good.
They do have a MIDI-to-Style software for Windows and Mac Monterey, which may suggest not Real Tracks.
I've been pretty impressed so far with what I've seen, but it's been out only a few days so far.
https://www.youtube.com/@LeighWilbraham shows quite a lot.