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Posted By: malevans ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 05:54 PM
Is it not time for wider support for Asio use in BB?

Cubase, Sonar, Adobe Soundbooth and Ableton work wonderfully with them.

Why not BB?

I have a Soundblaster External and Internal XFi Elite Pro and would prefer to use Asio drivers.

I try to use Asio in BB ......... crash!!!!!!!

Posted By: John Conley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 06:04 PM
With a studio full of gear all I need is MME. ASIO works with one program at a time. If you have some keyboard and want to run asio drivers due to a softsynth and latency, then asio4all seems to be the solution of choice.

What do you get in band in a box from asio drivers anyway? Do you hear a difference. ASIO if I remember was a Steinberg program of some sort. It's like the vase in a new Volkswagen. Weird idea, limited use. Especially here at -25C.
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 06:11 PM
Asio4all crashes too. Only MME is working for me in BB.

My DAW's work fine with Asio, especially the low latency ones. You can use more than one program at a time with Asio ...... running in background.

Many have expressed a desire for improved Asio support ....... I am adding my wish for improved Asio support too.
Posted By: davem7b5 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 06:34 PM
I agree. Something happened to the new program. I have used ASIO with BIAB for the
last 5 yrs. without a problem. Now i am stuck with MME and so much latency that I
cannot use a midi guitar to input melody parts.
Dave
Posted By: John Conley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 06:37 PM
You still did not explain what advantage you get with the driver, or the performance of the program or the sound that comes out at the end of the process.

I'd like a ferrari engine in my Mini Cooper but I suspect it's not happening. For now I can get to the store and back just as fast, I probably drive too fast now anyway.

I spent about 100 hours getting ASIO to work in Band in a Box. Then banged my head against the wall because everything sounded identical. And when running ASIO I had to close Band in a Box to see a youtube video or hear other sounds from other programs because it hijacked the signal. That was on Xp sp1, but still. At the moment, my keyboard goes thru to a Ketron with zero latency, so with the keyboard, the Ketron, the voicelive and the usb connection to the Bose system I have zero issues. So even if Pgmusic made perfect use of some ASIO driver system I just want one of the tech gurus here to tell me this is going to make my life easier, my sounds better, and grow hair on my head.

The only way I can crash the current version of Band in a Box is to unplug the USB midi cable and plug it back in. That was just a mistake, I was lazy and wanted to take photos off my camera so I didn't think to shut down band in a box.

I probably should write Edirol and see if they answer me as to why they crashed my computer.
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 07:08 PM
A somewhat flippant response Mr. Conley.

I note under your name you have, or have been credited as an 'expert' ......... cough, cough.

I have been with BB since the beginning. Yes, I mean the floppies.

There are many advantages using Asio drivers ........ this is well known. Ask any computer / musician familiar with DAW's.

There are no advantages using Asio in BB ........ because BB crashes.

My point is still ........ Can we have more support for Asio.

:-)
Posted By: allis Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 07:09 PM
ASIO works lousy in BiaB, so I voted for Mal Evans, and I hope you will too.

He's wining in a landslide, so at least that part's all right.
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 07:14 PM
Thank you allis.

:-)
Posted By: silvertones Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 07:39 PM
John you flippy son of a gun,
You know why he hasn't answered you? 'cause he doesn't know.
BTW properly designed ASIO drivers work quite well in BIAB. My Audidgy2ZS Notebook card works great with KX ASIO drivers and the built in AC97 Soundcard that did not come with ASIO drivers also works well using ASIO drivers compiled by Lex Nemury of the KX team.
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 08:28 PM
How to get B&B not to crash with ASIO Driver

Here’s how I set up ASIO in B&B and stop it from crashing.

On the menu bar “Opt” -> “MIDI/Audio” -> now click on the “Audio Setup (MME)” button then another menu window will appear. Where it says “Audio Driver type” select “ASIO” and another window menu appears and you should see listed your ASIO interface click on this (in my case its UA-4FX) you should see the IN and OUT ports then get listed. Also now click “ASIO always ON”. Now click OK on this menu and then click OK on the next menu window. Now look at the final menu (this was the first one to come up). You should see on the bottom right hand corner the button has changed to “Audio Settings ASIO (Always)”.

NOW here is the CRITICAL final step. Instead of clicking OK on this menu click the little cross at the top right hand corner of this window menu. If you do not do this and click OK you’ll get (At least I do) a transparent white screen (i.e. B&B crashes).

Let’s see how many folks this works for.

Cheers F
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 08:39 PM
malevans
with due respect mate i would like to comment on asio as follows.
frankly ive never liked the protocol for many reasons as follows.
(other than the sound driver release aspect already mentioned. )
it wasnt open source code as far as i know ...so the question in my mind has been
did its creator put some code in that favored its own daw software ??
i dont know..but its always been a question in my mind...
cos the daw software market is a very competitive one.
and ive seen many times from my past working in hi tech that
hi tech companies sometimes develope a protocol or subsystem in their products for a marketing edge. the old adage used to be "own the technology and you own the market".
frankly i would have been far happier if an independent body had created the standard
with available source code so as to create a level playing field for all daw software that used it.
mebe there are probs in biab...but i find it interesting that the post above indicates
kx drivers work.
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 09:03 PM
The true believers versus the frustrated 'other DAW users.' LOL

To answer the purportedly imponderable question ... this is the advantage of ASIO: Low Latency.

You know that nasty lag between when you press a key and when you hear a sound?

Some people think that it is a cool idea for recording midi with softsynths while playing back other tracks. As a matter of fact, most people who have ever done this agree.

The issue of 'good' ASIO drivers is incorrect. I have two different pieces of hardware with manufactures ASIO drivers from two different companies whose gear falls in the top 10 of all equipment ... and one in the top 5: RME.

And it doesn't work with only BIAB.

So for you successful ASIOers here, congratulations!

The idea that Steinberg placed some code in ASIO to thwart other coders ... well, that is a sentiment about which each must draw their own conclusion. Interestingly, it hasn't stopped most of their fierce competitors like Sonar/ Cakewalk, Abletion, Sony, etc., from adapting their SDK.

If ASIO is 'flakey, unpredictable, 'your mileage may vary,' etc. with BIAB, then PG Music should stop advertising that it is compatible with BIAB.

i appreciate the avoiding crashing work around of killing a window by hitting the 'x' instead of the 'OK' button ... but c'mon!

As I said in another recent post on this form, just search this forum for 'ASIO' and see all the problems people have.

Prado
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 09:14 PM
Prado
wit respect i'm very well aware of what latency means. pushing keys etc.
but there is another variable that should be mentioned.
the pc itself. there are oodles of different user configurations.

ive seen people have probs in lots of different daw software with asio support.
just go on various recording forums.
even with people running asio successfully there are many discussions
bout round trip latency etc etc n debates etc etc.
it might be sound device drivers, or it might even be an old clunky system.
mebe in some cases where even people think its asio itself ..
it might not be..just might be the way a particular pc is configged mate.
generally as processors get ever more faster and re engineering of pc's take place
latency will gradually become a thing of the past hopefully.
all i'm saying is there are many different variables from pc to pc.
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 09:33 PM
Manning1 ... since your are aware, then you must know the advantage of ASIO over MME, assuming all things being equal.

Of course there are myriad other possible issues ... as with any implimentation of software, it presupposes adequate system, i.e., CPU, RAM, OS, etc.

Some of the discussion here seems to have quite overlooked the issue of latency when postulating whether there is any advantage of ASIO vs. MME.

I have a dual dual core Xeon server and a laptop Centrino2 server.

As a retired computer engineer I am sure you fully understand the nature of servers and the testing/ qualification procedures they go through for certification. My point: the possible ASIO problems you refer to don't apply to me. I'm running both machines with 7 msec latency on ASIO when recording. I could go lower to 3 msec and 64bit buffer, but in case I want to throw in an effect or two, leave it at 128bits.

Now, I'm sure you are much more knowleagable than I about computers, but I have done my homework as far as obtaining and maintaining high quality computers for my music. And I cannot get ASIO drivers to work with BIAB ... as I've said ad naseum ... despite having many, many other audio software programs operating flawlessly.

Prado
Posted By: silvertones Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 10:30 PM
One thing that does need to be said PG has not updated there interface to reflect the fact that the MME choice is actually WDM. that
Posted By: silvertones Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 10:39 PM
4.3 MS with Lex LeMury's 3rd party driver for older AC97 cards.
8.0 MS with KX
Doesn't ever crash but I'd don't use it except for these discussions.
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 10:52 PM
Interesting FrankK ........ I will give that a try.

silvertones ........ I really should not give you an answer.

Since you are a (veteran), you should know that, no way, are you going to achieve serious recording or playback with MME drivers. It is an old and outdated driver format. WDM drivers should clear up latency problems but pushing them is not advisable. ASIO bypasses Windows Kernel. WDM and MME use Windows Kernel. OS systems are improving and moving toward real time but I don't see that just yet. Vista 64 bit,Windows 7? ..... Rah,rah,rah. Since MME and WDM are for the most part Microsoft, (cough), technology ........ need I say more?

MME is an old technology and doesn't support low latencies, hence the need for the more updated WDM and ASIO driver specs.

Considering the journey ...... BB has come a long, long way. It would be sad to see this aspect of the program neglected.

:-)
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 10:54 PM
So to re-iterate.

Could we have improved support for Asio in BB ......... PLEASE.

:-)
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 11:04 PM
Well, guess what?

It worked FrankK ............ Thanks a lot sir. The performance improvement is vast using the low latency Asio drivers.

I've just elevated you to genius status. I do wonder how you came to figure that out though.

:-)
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 11:06 PM
Go tell Peter FrankK ......... he might let you borrow his Learjet for the weekend.

:-)
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 11:07 PM
............. no crashes ............... YAY.
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 11:10 PM
Band-in-a-Box 2011 ........... Amazing.

......... but remember to press the little x in the top right corner though.

Made my day that.

:-)
Posted By: jim111 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/25/10 11:15 PM
Hi Frank,
I just read your post about half an hour ago and I remembered that I did have that white screen quite often back when I was first trying to set up BIAB. (about a year ago now). So I fired up BIAB and started flipping back and forth between ASIO and MME, closing out by hitting ok, and testing. Result: no problems regardless of how I closed the windows.

I did run across another problem tho, and I think I know what's causing it. I think the VSC:VSTi is crashing BIAB sometimes when it unloads, So I have another test for anyone with the VSC:VSTi and enough time to test, and that is--just load and test then load something different and test. Do this a few time because it doesn't happen all the time.

Later
Jim

ps Mal, I don't mean to hi-jack your thread. I voted for you if that's any consolation. :>)
Posted By: John Conley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:14 AM
Wow, I have the floppies, I use band in a box for 2 to 4 hours a day, have 10 grand worth of gear, and am a moron.

I might just re-think spending hours every day helping people and spend my time learning another instrument.

I still don't need, and don't see the need, for asio anything. Everything is a OK. Maybe I should chuck my inferior gear and results in the river and take up sleeping in a nursing home.

Sorry about being a total freaking moron, someone at PG music turn me back into a freakin newbie, idiot, so I can start whining about how the software is stupid, outdated and needs Peter to sell his LearJet and spend some cash on making some new guy happy. Right.

Fogetabboutit.

I have been insulted by way more intelligent people.

I may be stupid but every morning I wake up with another $150 bucks in my bank account from the pension and even more from the investments. I guess I'm not worthy of the geniuses here and I'm not a total ASSIO. Too bad.

I'm gonna be away for a bit, going take care of my 9 month old grandson and sing Papa John he plays one he plays one on wee Fionns thumb......with a nick nack Paddy Whack..

never mind.
Posted By: John Conley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:15 AM
Oh by the way, my question as to WHY ones needs ASIO was never answered. Not in an intelligent answer that makes any sense.
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:29 AM
Lot of inferring going on here.

Trying to support an argument that there is no advantage of ASIO over MME ... regardless of what personally works for you ... is a loser. You may dislike ASIO for any reason you care to, but that does not arrive at a cogent argument.

This would:
1: I prefer MME because even though it has large latency, you never have to worry about any issues of sharing a driver if you are using more than one program.

2: I prefer ASIO because even though you may have to adjust settings since only one program can use the driver at a time, you never have to worry about latency.

Congrats on your good income and, more importantly, grandson. Enjoy every precious moment with him and the others you love.

Peace.

Prado
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:40 AM
Quote:

Hi Frank,
I just read your post about half an hour ago and I remembered that I did have that white screen quite often back when I was first trying to set up BIAB. (about a year ago now). So I fired up BIAB and started flipping back and forth between ASIO and MME, closing out by hitting ok, and testing. Result: no problems regardless of how I closed the windows.

I did run across another problem tho, and I think I know what's causing it. I think the VSC:VSTi is crashing BIAB sometimes when it unloads, So I have another test for anyone with the VSC:VSTi and enough time to test, and that is--just load and test then load something different and test. Do this a few time because it doesn't happen all the time.

Later
Jim

ps Mal, I don't mean to hi-jack your thread. I voted for you if that's any consolation. :>)





Well glad to hear that the ASIO switch works for you Jim. That's why I said lets see whether it works for other folks because different operating systems could make a difference. My system is Vista 64bit ; 6GB memory- what is your system?

B&B also crashes on my system when I uncheck the "Use VST/Dxi Syth" box in Opt -> MIDI/Audio Settings (I'm using the Coyote Forte Dxi) and then click this on again. If I click OK in this first menu it crashes (a white transparent screen). If I click the top right hand corner x then things are sweet.

Perhaps we can focus down on a particular operating system where we get a crash and where the workaround works.

Malevans what is your operating system.??

Perhaps others could try the workaround and state whether it works or whether its not necessary and their operating system.

Re F
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:42 AM
Prado
re being aware of asio. yes i'm fully aware.
but i'm also aware that no matter what a user does in tweaking..
there will still be a certain latency. even tho it might be low.

seeing the forest for the trees the whole computer music area was done bass ackwards imho.
the basic problem is win was originally developed as a general purpose
OS. instead of building a small elegant fast OS offering very low latency in audio apps .
thus asio was a tack on to get around the win kernel.

run dpc latency checker on your 2 systems..the xeon n the centrino
n lets see how good those puppies are in terms of "us reported figures".
report back with a pic. lets see if you get red spikes.

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
because asio is just one aspect.
the other major aspect is how well a particular users pc handles real time data
streams , which is where the dpc analyser comes in.

let me point out , and i'm sure some will disagree with me..
going back to pressing keys and expecting immediate response from a plug in..
another aspect is some plug ins are resource hogs.
it shouldnt be a problem with a user that has an i7, but it might be on a puny system.
depends how the plug in is coded.

as john correctly hints at..there are many ways of doing a song.
mebe your argument prado is that you want to play along live with biab
useing a real time plug in.
but i look at biab slightly differently as a song beds scratch pad
in concept. nothing to stop you doing a rough arrange in biab ,
then dropping the traks into your fav daw where the asio works well
for you. why not do it like that ??

anyhoo what sound device are you trying to use in biab with asio support ??
cos i havent seen you state that cept in passing rme was mentioned.
are you trying to use rme ??

post back your dpc results and what sound device your useing mate.
cos i'm curious.
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 01:01 AM
Quote:

Well, guess what?

It worked FrankK ............ Thanks a lot sir. The performance improvement is vast using the low latency Asio drivers.

I've just elevated you to genius status. I do wonder how you came to figure that out though.

:-)




No Genius I'm afraid , just Serendipity as in the Persian fairytale “Three Princes of Serendip”. The way most things are accidentally discovered.!!

Cheers F
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 01:12 AM
Manning1 ...

Of course you are aware of latency and that there will always be some. We are talking about a relative and practical diffrence, not an absolute lack of latency.

Your basic point expressed earlier was that ASIO drivers could cause other problems for folks with inadequate systems or lack of experience in digital audio. While that is true, the proper question with respect to and discussion of relative advantages of ASIO vs. MME should be based upon the premise that they are both working properly as intended. And that is why low latency is a legitimate issue in this discussion.

Yes, it is my preference to run low latency. I simply like to have everything set up to run consistently and with low enough latency that it is below the threshold of auditory detection ... let's say less than 11 msec. What is the lowest achievable by MME? What ever it is, it's detectable.

I'll have to check the dpc latency later ... I'm not at my studio.

I'm running XP svc pack 3 on both machines. I have a PCIe RME Multiface II with the latest drivers. You're probably familiar with RME ... since I see you slumming around over that at Gearslutz from time to time ... as RME along Lynx and Digidesign are among the highest regarded product lines in the PC arena. If not, you can go to ...

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_multiface_2.php

I have an Echo Layla 24 with the latest drivers. This runs from a cardbus to my laptop.

I also tried ASIO4All when I had trouble with BIAB.

Look, I don't really understand why when some folks legitimately complain about ASIO implimentation in BIAB, a feature that the company claims to support, other folk seem to be offended. Low latency is something that most knowleagable folks demand in audio applications. If you don't want it fine. But to deprecate those that do want it seems pointless.

I also think there is a tendency on this forum to assume that anyone who is a new member is consequently ignorant about audio applications and digital audio. There are 'noobs' to it all and 'noobs' to BIAB. There is a difference.

Regards.

Prado
Posted By: malevans Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 01:35 AM
I'm also on Vista 64bit with 8GB memory FrankK. I also have the complete BB on an external drive and 2 terabyte drives.

With realtracks and vsti I am pleased with the sounds I am getting in most genres, though would like to see more classical and contemporary folk instruments being introduced in realtracks, at a wider tempo range.

None the less ..... it's all good for the most part.

:-)
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 02:22 AM
Quote:

I'm also on Vista 64bit with 8GB memory FrankK. I also have the complete BB on an external drive and 2 terabyte drives.

With realtracks and vsti I am pleased with the sounds I am getting in most genres, though would like to see more classical and contemporary folk instruments being introduced in realtracks, at a wider tempo range.

None the less ..... it's all good for the most part.

:-)




OK so we have a similarity here ; Vista 64bit with the huge statistical count of 2 (LOL) have the B&B crash on selecting ASIO and clicking OK.

Re folk instruments Yep and for me more clean guitar rhythms but we should put those in the wish list thread.

Cheers F
Posted By: jim111 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 03:28 AM
I should have mentioned this in my original post. I'm running XP SP3, 1.8 duo with 3 meg ram.
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 03:41 AM
Prado.
ok..so rme.
a very fine sound device as i'm sure your aware. and no i'm not assuming your
a noob to digital audio.
by the by as i'm sure your aware asio introduces its own overhead.
(by the way ive used asio at length as well as other non asio formats like wdm etc)
so your saying your rme dont play nice with biab ..correct ??
nor your layla (another good device) correct ??
mebe it is a biab issue..but follow my weird mind..
cos i like to try n trak things down.

both those devices have user control panels..correct ??
what ive seen sometimes with these user control panels ..
and an important point to note is..sometimes the way a user
control panel is set up in one daw music software might need a different setting
in another daw software.

lets be constructive bout this.
post pics of each user control panel that you know works well in other daw software.
just amuse me please..theres method in my madness..lol.

i would like to make one important point also mate.
the way pc architecture works is the music software daw or application..
is seperated from the sound device.
win sits in the middle of everything running tasks n processes
rather like a traffic cop.
all the music app does at start up is ask win whats installed on the users
machine and win reports back.
(for more info peruse the MS developers site called MSDN and look up enumeration
of devices.)
in summary the music app itself could be accessing the freddy splunge
sound device. all the music app knows is what win tells it is installed
re sound devices. then the user chooses in the music app the
I/O//drivers to be used.
the reason i'm stateing the above is some users assume that there is a close
direct relationship tween the music app and the sound device.
but in fact its more of an arms length relationship if you peruse
the MSDN site and delve into the midi and audio api's that developers of
midi and audio software use when developing in win.

so what fazes users is why does my xyz sound device work well with
one piece of daw software but not another. ??
or why does xyz sound device work on my mates puter but not mine ??
youll see these questions on many forums.
even why does asio work on one of my pc's but not the other ??
seen that one too.

my answer is there are many variables that need to be considered.
mebe it is biab's asio implementation..but it might not be.
obviously some folks here are useing asio ok.
there are other variables. mebe for example its a setting in a sound devices user control panel.
ive seen many times where a user is swearing blind its the daw software..
(sonar//samp//saw//audition//any other daw software you can name)
only to find out it was a setting in the user control panel.
(or sometimes incorrect driver assignment)
assuming the correct I/O drivers have been assigned in the daw software.
which is why i'm asking you to show pics of your user control panel
settings for your sound devices. it might be a blind end..but might not.
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 04:38 AM
Manning1 ... hey, appreciate you going the extra mile. You're obviously putting a lot of thought and 'help your neighbor' concern in to this. I cannot but agree with what you say as far ... there are many variables. And of course the driver, ASIO in this discussion, is exactly the bridge between the software, windows and the hardware sound device.

(Edit ... tell you what, here below is a link to a screen shot of the RME console. If this is what you meant, just tell me what settings you think I need to have and I'll set my card that way and see what happens.)

http://www.rme-audio.de/old/en/hdsp/multifa.htm#SETTINGS

OK, I know how to make a 'screen shot,' but I'm not clear on how to turn this into a postable picture. Got a link or a quick instruction?

Second, are you talking about pics of the drivers' applet windows where you change settings or a pic of the driver as setup in the 'options setup window of a program it is working with? Or?

I also note that in your list of questions you missed mine: Noting that I have installed all the same applications on both my desktop and laptop, specifically Cubase5, Ableton6, AcidPro6, Reaper3, Reason4, SoundForge6 and several standalone applications including NI FM8, and that the desktop runs on RME drivers and the laptop runs on Echo Audio drivers, and every single other software program I own runs flawlessly on both computer with the two different drivers, why won't either ASIO driver run BIAB on either computer?

Yes, a long question, but it does seem to answer most of the 'pinning it down' possibilities you pose. No?

Now, I haven't tried the 'fix' mentioned in this very thread, but later tonight I'll give it a shot.

So, on to the pics.

Prado
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 04:59 AM
Quote:

Oh by the way, my question as to WHY ones needs ASIO was never answered. Not in an intelligent answer that makes any sense.




John,

I'll try again.

I've reread all this thread, particularly the part about your painful experience spending 100 hours getting ASIO to work and then discerning it sounded the same. I also note you use the Ketron, which sounds as though you don't use softsynths.

I like to use both softsynths and hardware synths. Latency is a non-issue if you are triggering hardware. But it is an issue if you use or hope to use softsynths.

So the "answer" is that if you are a softsynth user you need ASIO drivers to play along or record with BIAB in real time.

Hope that makes it clear.

Regards.

Prado
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 05:05 AM
If someone wants to use the ASIO drivers, for *whatever* reason, and if the program is supposed to support ASIO, then they should be able to invoke the ASIO drivers without crashes, freezes or other problems.

Things like that can be quite frustrating.


--Mac
Posted By: Edward Buckley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 06:42 AM
I too have struggled to make ASIO work well in BIAB. I just purchased the new M-Audio Fast Track II for use with my Laptop, the goal being to Play the Akai EWI USB onstage using bass sample libraries. I was never able to get my Tascam Fireone interface to work with ASIO in BIAB. My laptop has 2 GB of ram and Windows 7 32 bit. Imagine my surprise when I was able to get it working with 2010 version of BIAB. Latency is very low, audio sounds good.

But I still can't get the EWI USB to be seen as an input in BIAB. So, as long as I'm playing a keyboard, I'll be fine with ASIO. But if I'm playing the EWI, I have to use Reason. What a drag, as I'd love to use BIAB onstage. Now I'm experimenting using Reason with ASIO, and BIAB with MME at the same time...........

Ahhhh....the fun of it all. Better than the days of floopy disks and changing IRQ's the hard way.

Ed
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 06:55 AM
+1 for the "don't hit OK" button fix. My RME ASIO drivers are now locked and loaded.

I am ... partially anyway ... mollified. It must be the font in the OK button that is causing all this grief!

Kudos to 'Serendipitous FrankK'

Prado
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 07:32 AM
Quote:

I should have mentioned this in my original post. I'm running XP SP3, 1.8 duo with 3 meg ram.




Well given Jim had no problems, based on limited evidence it looks like its a Vista 64bit bug.

Cheers F
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 08:17 AM
Quote:

Quote:

I should have mentioned this in my original post. I'm running XP SP3, 1.8 duo with 3 meg ram.




Well given Jim had no problems, based on limited evidence it looks like its a Vista 64bit bug.

Cheers F




Prado just read your posts again: So you were running XP SP3 on your Xeon ?? And clicking the x did the trick for you. If so this changes the landscape
again.

Re F
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 08:33 AM
No, I'm on XP sp3.

Prado
Posted By: FrankK Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 09:41 AM
Quote:

No, I'm on XP sp3.

Prado




I guess you mean Yes you were on XP sp3 ! Therefore not necessarily a Vista 64bit issue.

Well its over to the brains trust at PGMusic to work all this evidence out.
At least we can workaround until its fixed.

Re F
Posted By: silvertones Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:27 PM
I do agree on a couple of opposing points.
1. If advertised to support ASIO it should work.
2. With the multitude of computer configurations , the large amount of people using this software and Windows itself it may not always work as expected.
3. There are probably thousands of people using ASIO successfully with BIAB that don't come to these forums.
4. PG Music in my opinion is a great company but probably does not have a large enough staff to do the R&D and testing of a company like Adobe or Sony. I'll take PG any day over the others quirks and all.

Do you have this box checked?
Show Warning for Untested Soundcard Formats is an optional setting that shows a warning if your ASIO driver
format has not been tested in Band-in-a-Box. This message does not necessarily mean your driver will not work,
and it can be disabled if you want.
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 12:31 PM
Prado.
(or anyone else haveing probs. )
thanks for the pic showing the rme user control panel.
firstly you can upload pics fast to stashbox.org.
without even setting up an account.
after each pic upload a link will display.
just copy the link into the thread here.
as i said lets be constructive.
lets see pics of the following mate.
1. dpc pics for both the centrino and the xeon.
2. you showed the user control panel for the rme but not the echo.
(i'll get to the rme in a moment.)
3. pics showing settings in the daw software where asio works flawlessly
showing driver and sampling n bit rate settings.
4. pics showing your own biab preference settings for drivers/asio
etc etc.
5. and for the hey of it..cos it might be important...
a pic of win task manager showing all running tasks n processes.

this way a complete picture of both your xeon and centrino systems
can be obtained.
for anyone else haveing probs with a sound device ..
just post a thread in off topic with the above pics.
you could call it...the problem sound devices thread.
(many recording forums have a sticky thread relating to sound devices that work and dont work).
and i'll take a gander at the pics and comment appropriately ..fair ??
but i need those pics in order to help.

now back to your rme prado.
for you specifically.
(yes your link to the rme control panel is the sort of user control
panel i was talking about.
viz most sound devices , even junky on board pc sound has a user control panel.
and its sometimes settings in these user control panels that trip people up.
for example ive seen numerous threads on various forums with many different types of
daw software where people sometimes wrestle with various control panels like emu n delta etc etc.)

a couple of questions.
you obviously have a sophisticated set up with the rme.
1. are you useing external clocking devices with it. ??
2. in your other daw software where asio works fine..
what bit depth n sampling rate do you have set ??

do you now have rme and asio and biab working fine
includeing the x factor ?? whats your status ??

mebe it is an issue with biab implementation of asio..
but one can only state that categorically after
exhausting other diagnostic avenues which is why those pics are important.

as i said..for other folks ..post the above pics in a thread in
the off topic section. n i'll comment appropriately.
but i cant comment intelligently unless i have pics of peoples settings.
imho this is far more constructive than just ad hoc comments.
in fact i'll go now n start a thread in off topic called
"post your problem sound devices here".
so there is a central repository hopefully for folks .
fair ??
god bless mate.
Posted By: Beagle Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 02:39 PM
I'd like to clear up a misconception here. ASIO version 1 did not support multiple applications, ASIO 2 and 3 does. I've noticed that BB does not allow other applications to use the ASIO drivers, therefore I must assume that it is not ASIO 2 compliant. The reason I have reached this conclusion is because I can open BB first and it will use the ASIO drivers, but if I then open Sonar or Cubase, neither of those apps can use the ASIO drivers. same for the other way around. if I open Sonar or Cubase first, BB cannot use the ASIO drivers. HOWEVER, Sonar and Cubase open DOES allow use of the ASIO drivers at the same time!

ref: http://www.harmony-central.com/Events/WNAMM99/Steinberg/ASIO-2.0.html
note specifically the heading: ASIO 2.0 Shares Hardware with other ASIO 2.0 Applications.

What ASIO does NOT allow, however is the use of 2 or more soundcards at the same time - unless they are designed to work as ONE card such as the M-audio delta series cards are.

This is completely verifiable by testing with programs which DO comply to the ASIO2 protocol. as long as you have 2 programs which BOTH comply with ASIO2 or above, then they can BOTH access the soundcard drivers. Sonar and Cubase are both ASIO2 compliant. I can open both programs and either program can access the soundcard. BB will not, however, share the ASIO drivers and therefore I conclude that it is not ASIO2 compliant.

As has been discovered earlier by the OP, however, it's not just about the host programs' compliance to ASIO2 or 3. it's also about the soundcard's drivers. if the drivers are not written to ASIO2 or 3 compliance for the soundcard you're using, then you will also still have the problem with not being able to use multiple programs with ASIO driver mode.
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 03:11 PM
Thank you, Beagle. I just learned a lot.
Posted By: Beagle Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 04:32 PM
Glad to help, Matt!
Posted By: silvertones Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 05:13 PM
Thanks! I'll throw you a big bone.
Might we also conclude that if BIAB is not ASIO 2 compliant that using ASIO2 drivers may also introduce issues other then not sharing? Like crashing
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 06:18 PM
Wow ... Beagle ... an illumination of knowledge.

FWIW After trying the FranK Fix and finding for the first time my ASIO audio was working, I deselected the audio driver, went back to midi out and then reselected my RME ASIO drivers, this time in the normal way: Crash!

After reloading the program, no audio. Again deselected the audio, went to midi, reselected the audio and chose the RME ASIO drivers FranK Fix method. Bingo! Working perfectly.

That is as much empirical evidence as I need that the problem lies with BIAB, not my setup, drivers, other programs, etc., etc.

With this bit of knowledge gleaned from the posters here you'd think it should be a rather simple fix for PG Music, no?

Thanks.

Prado
Posted By: jford Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 06:38 PM
Quote:

[With this bit of knowledge gleaned from the posters here you'd think it should be a rather simple fix for PG Music, no?




Just to be safe, you should send a note to "support @ pgmusic dot com" (remove spaces and make appropriate substitutions) to let them know and probably reference this thread.
Posted By: Beagle Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 06:45 PM
John (silvertones) - it is possible, yes.

Prado - I agree with John Ford - send them a message about this and let hem know.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 07:31 PM
Quote:

Oh by the way, my question as to WHY ones needs ASIO was never answered. Not in an intelligent answer that makes any sense.




It actually was answered but it was buried in the middle of a long post. It's only when you're doing live midi recording using a soft synth such as me using a midi keyboard controller to play my software B4 organ program. With MME or WDM, the latency makes it virtually impossible to play live (it's around a half second or so) but ASIO gets you down to 5 ms which is measured to be basically the same delay you hear when sitting in front of a grand piano and you hit a key. I believe you use hardware synths so latency is not an issue for you but try playing your wind controller using the Forte synth or any other soft synth using the MME drivers and you'll hear it clearly because it's right in your face and trust me the delay is so bad you'll stop playing in about two seconds.
Not everybody uses all the capabilities of these programs. You can be an expert in several areas for years yet never use this or that function. This is a big deal not just for recording but for playing along in a live situation too if you use software synths.

Bob
Posted By: MarioD Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 10:22 PM
Quote:

But I still can't get the EWI USB to be seen as an input in BIAB. So, as long as I'm playing a keyboard, I'll be fine with ASIO. But if I'm playing the EWI, I have to use Reason. What a drag, as I'd love to use BIAB onstage. Now I'm experimenting using Reason with ASIO, and BIAB with MME at the same time...........
Ed




Hi Edward, FWIW I can get my EWI USB to work in BiaB using either ASIO or MME drivers. The MIDI input driver for the EWI USB on my system is called USB Audio Device. The problem is I can only select one MIDI input driver at a time. Thus for me it’s either my keyboard or the EWI USB. Is this the same for you?

This is not an issue for me as I record in Sonar however someone may have a work around. Also maybe multiple midi inputs should be placed in the wish list forum.

Keep us posted.
Posted By: rharv Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 10:55 PM
If you need multiple MIDI input ports RB will do it easily.

They each have their strengths (RB and BiaB).
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 11:15 PM
Prado
re empirical evidence.
actually you cant necesarily jump to that conclusion.
its not as simplistic with respect.
without understanding when you select and deselect a driver on the fly
how rme and biab and win interract with each other
and internal mesages sent and their execution within the pc.
particularly as to when chosen sound devices/drivers are open and closed.

mebe it is a biab problem...but not necessarily.
difficult to say without seeing biab internal source code
and the source code to the rme product.
and therein lies the rub mate.

ive seen the driver dance in lots of daw software.
you can see it on lots of recording forums.
my "xyz sound device wont work with abc daw software " etc etc.
a zillion threads on such . not just limited to biab.

sometimes the solution is to select the correct drivers , save the selection,
(which some people forget to do...seen that a few times.)
then exit the daw software so sound devices are closed properly.
and then re-open the daw software , and try to record n see if everything is
copacetic. just the other day i had to do this when testing out a new
sound device. set the drivers/save..close down daw...then come back in
to the daw and all was good.
there might also be win quirks we dont know bout ..dunno.
youve prolly also seen on some recording forums where some daw
software dont like recording sampling rates to change once in a project.
once theyve been set.
anyhoo glad you got it sorted.
i would still run the dpc test at your convenience.
its very usefull and will help youwith your pc's..
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/26/10 11:25 PM
The fact that there have been several reports now that using the X to cancel the window and select ASIO drivers does indeed make an apparently nonworking ASIO driver work points the finger directly at Band in a Box.

Another bit of a clue is that I have never had to resort to that to get ASIO drivers to work when using my M-Audio AP 2496 card. The Okay button just works. However, I stopped trying to use my E-MU 1616M ASIO drivers with BiaB some time ago due to it *sometimes* crashing and now I will have to investigate the X method and see if that works or not.

Let's hope it is a simple bit of code fix and can be implemented in the next program update.


--Mac
Posted By: Prado Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/27/10 12:10 AM
@ Manning1 ... I mightly respect your assiduous and methodical approach to problem solving ... that's undoubtedly why your were a successful computer engineer.

But I'm just a pragmatic, 'wanna be' computer musician. I'm happy to help with something I know about ... in small repay for all the fantastic help I've received on one forum or another over the years. Once my problem is solved I'm usually back to the music ... or surfin' the forums for what's interesting.

I'll try to take a look at the dts thingey. I'm always open to bullet proofing my setup.

As Mac says above, let's let BIAB sort it out. I already sent a request to BIAB ... answered by Andrew to acknowledge this thread.

I'm sure there must be some small sub-routine/ macro that runs with the 'OK' button that interferes with some and not others selecting the ASIO drivers.

I'm also eager to hear if 'FrankK's Fix' ... I think i'd rather call it 'Frankie Kay's Fix,' rolls of the tongue a little more sonically ... solves Mac's 1616m issues. I've got one sitting in the closet and I've been thinking about buying the new PCIe card from E-Mu and then selling my Echo Layla (whose current resale price is a pittance of what it's really worth!)

Prado
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 02/27/10 12:29 AM
Unfortunately it my be at least a few days until I can get to testing again...
Posted By: Passion4Blue Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/23/10 02:03 PM
Are you kidding? MME is glitchy and horrible especially as you add more and more real tracks to the music. ASIO runs flawlessly and there are no latency issues. I'll even take WDM drivers over MME, but BIAB does not offer them. They really need to correct these issues.
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/23/10 02:24 PM
Quote:

Are you kidding? MME is glitchy and horrible especially as you add more and more real tracks to the music. ASIO runs flawlessly and there are no latency issues.




While I, too, find that my particular setup and soundcard will run the ASIO just fine, there really are those who cannot get them to work properly. Might be the chosen soundcard, might be the drivers, might be the OS and tweaking, might be the host program or any combination of those stopping the show.

Quote:

I'll even take WDM drivers over MME, but BIAB does not offer them. They really need to correct these issues.




Well, unless you are running an OS that is early Win 98 or something, when you pick "MME" inside pgmusic products, you are really running your WDM drivers anyway. There aren't any MME drivers to run in XP and later, only WDM.

Why pgmusic continues to call it, "MME" is the question -- and I've asked it in the past.

I think they should just change the label to "Windows Sound Drivers" and that would cover it all.


--Mac
Posted By: Passion4Blue Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/23/10 03:08 PM
Thanks Mac! I didn't know about BIAB calling their WDM drivers MME. I guess the output of what I'm hearing could probably sound much worse if it was really MME.

I use all the latest gear since I am a computer tech and build my own music systems from the ground up, so even with the external audio interface that I'm using (M-Audio Fast Track Pro) the ASIO just isn't cooperating.

I'm going to try Frank's method that I read early on in this forum tonight to see if it works for me.
Posted By: earl kirby Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/23/10 07:45 PM
WOW, Just read through all of this and am wondering will I actually be able to get this stuff to work! I just ordered the m-audio fast track II from Sweetwater in the hopes of being able to use a softsynth in real time with BIAB. The rep there was certain that by adding the interface I would solve my problems. I'm not sure that ASIO is the problem but rather that Asio4All may be my problem. In any case I'm waiting with bated breath for the interface to come in (Its on back order) so I can try to do what many of you are already doing. One of the big problems is that all of the software companies promise ease of use but then start offering more and more features that make the software more and more difficult. BIAB is easy to use if all you are doing is entering in some chords and playing back that simple track. It becomes very complicated when you start adding the extra features.
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/23/10 08:55 PM
BB sholuld work fine with ASiO4ALL, Ed, matter of fact BB was *optimized* for use with ASIO4ALL several versions back.

Problems may arise due to OS choice along with softsynth choice and OS tweak settings, something like that is what I'm thinking.


--Mac
Posted By: Passion4Blue Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/24/10 02:48 PM
Mac, If I install ASIO4All on my system will I be able to use that driver in place of the ASIO drivers that are set up to work with my M-Audio Fast Track Pro audio interface?

Reason I'm asking is because presently BIAB 2010 does not work with my M-Audio device unless it is configured for MME (or WDM as we know it to really be).
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/24/10 09:39 PM
Quote:

Mac, If I install ASIO4All on my system will I be able to use that driver in place of the ASIO drivers that are set up to work with my M-Audio Fast Track Pro audio interface?




Yes. The ASIO4ALL actually functions as a "wrapper' that converts your chosen sound device's WDM Windows drivers to act as ASIO.

It is okay to install ASIO4ALL right alongside your soundcard's existing drivers, just be sure to pick the ASIO4ALL in the host program's picker window.


--Mac
Posted By: ikeinblackriver Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/25/10 07:31 AM
Mac, I have read this thread from cover to cover. I did not even know until now that there was a latency issue recording live with BiaB. I guess I haven't got enough BiaB under my belt yet. However, as I do not look forward to dealing with this issue in the immediate future ...

I have a new Quad-Core, Q8300 Multimedia PC that I bought just especially for music recording and performance. I have Windows-7 64-bit (all up to date), 6GB DDR3, 750GB HDD. I recently purchased and installed BiaB 2010 MegaPak (also up to date).

Q1: I've been told by various others that I should NOT use the internal sound on my PC -- That it could cause problems and secondly, that it would be to my advantage to purchase a higher-end sound card given I want high-quality sound output and input. I have PCI and PCIe slots available. If I were to go out and purchase a new sound card for my new PC on my new operating system, what do you feel would be a good choice given this discussion about ASIO and the very good likelihood that I will be playing along with BiaB?

Q2: Same question ... M-Audio Interface or something else ? I've seen some positive posts on other forums about the M-Audio 192 card but I'm reluctant to make the jump until I see some additional information about how I might avoid the ASIO issue(s).

Sorry -- long-winded but expected you'd need thoroughness. I was going to create a new thread for this question but it sounds like many users here are extremely knowledgeable with regard to the ASIO issue.

Thanks to everyone in advance for any recommendations you might give me. I may need to move this over to a separate post.
Posted By: manning1 Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/25/10 10:49 AM
ikeinblackriver
www.zzounds.com
has a complete list of sound devices from very cheap
to expensive.
as to how well a sound device performs depends on many variables.
the type of connection (fw/usb/pci) , chipset (for example some
fw audio devices dont like non TI fw chipsets), how well the drivers
of the sound device perform etc etc.
you can see for example what fw chipset you have in your quad
by looking under ieee properties in control panel.
with pci sound devices , as your a puter bloke, youll understand
bandwidth. viz ...i recommend , if useing a pci sound device not to have
other bandwidth hogging devices in pci slots.
in the past a main culprit often was tv tuner cards for example locking out
the pci sound device. thus leading to cliks n pops.

its really important you go into your needs in more detail.
eg..are you going to be at some point useing a daw software to reecord lots of audio inputs ??
or just always one at a time ??
often people have to try several devices , so make sure any device you can return for a full refund.
as your on w7 check carefully for driver compatability.
maudio 2496 sound device (pci) is only 90 buks in some places.
but youll have to test with your specific system with w7 etc etc.
i recommended it to someone recently n the bloke loves it.
but whether it will work well for you..too many variables.
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/25/10 01:31 PM
Quote:


Q1: I've been told by various others that I should NOT use the internal sound on my PC -- That it could cause problems and secondly, that it would be to my advantage to purchase a higher-end sound card given I want high-quality sound output and input. I have PCI and PCIe slots available. If I were to go out and purchase a new sound card for my new PC on my new operating system, what do you feel would be a good choice given this discussion about ASIO and the very good likelihood that I will be playing along with BiaB?

Q2: Same question ... M-Audio Interface or something else ? I've seen some positive posts on other forums about the M-Audio 192 card but I'm reluctant to make the jump until I see some additional information about how I might avoid the ASIO issue(s).






I use the AP 2496 M-Audio PCI card and have no ASIO issues whatsoever.

The 192 is the step up from the 2496, uses the same basic driver set.

Of course, I'm running XP SP3 here still, can't speak to the newer OS.

--Mac
Posted By: Passion4Blue Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/25/10 03:24 PM
Well, I've tried it all and still no success with the ASIO issue. I Tried Farnk's process...no luck, downloaded ASIO 4 All...faileds immeditely when I executed it. Again, I'm only having issues with BIAB 2010 trying to use ASIO. Sonar, Ableton, Reason all run fine with my M-Audio Fast Track Pro.

All drivers up to date on every component on my system, but BIAB 2010 just doesn't like ASIO. Hopefully a fix is in the works, for now I willl live with MME on the BIAB side of things

My machine is an HP Dual Core system with all the bells and whistles and I configured exclusively for music. All was well with all my music programs until I updated from BIAB 2008.5 to 2010. Very strange, but I'm hopeful that a fix is in the works.

Rome wasn't built in one day...
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/25/10 08:44 PM
Does this crash happen when you are using BB in DAW mode for drag 'n drop and the "other" program that utilizes ASIO drivers is already open?


--Mac
Posted By: Passion4Blue Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/26/10 08:58 PM
Nope, no programs are even open. I'm just trying to execute the ASIO 4 All file and it just fails with some error message right off the bat.
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/26/10 10:03 PM
Quote:

Nope, no programs are even open. I'm just trying to execute the ASIO 4 All file and it just fails with some error message right off the bat.




Oh!

This sounds like something you should be taking up with the M-Audio and ASIO4ALL developers then.


--Mac
Posted By: Mac Re: ASIO Crashes BB constantly - 03/27/10 02:42 AM
http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Quote:


We found a cause for some crashes with ASIO in Band-in-a-Box, that can occur if using the Panic button, or when exiting the MIDI Dialog (after playback has occured).

The simple workaround is to disable the menu item [Play- Panic also resets DXi] . When disabled (no checkbox beside the menu item) the crash no longer occurs.

We'll get a more definitive fix in the next patch release, but the workaround above should accomplish the same thing.

--------------------
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.



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