Lots of artists in the 60's and 70's did their thing and the other musicians were background and not really thought about. I was a huge Gordon Lightfoot fan in the 60's and 70's and he often played solo. Same for lots of duos. Neil Young appears alone a lot. Bruce Cockburn just did a gig here with just him and an acoustic guitar.

I use(d) Audacity and my sound system to record live a lot before the cancer took my voice. Remains to be seen if it comes back. I was recording a 'cd' for my 83 year old Mom who's been bugging me for it. Too bad this happened so fast, one day I'm fine a week later I'm not. Oh well, I'm still sort of kicking although I can't get over being angry about when it happened.

The use of the software can provide you with nice backing tracks. I just did a few songs for repetoire, like Foolish Things, render to .wav, convert to mp3 using Band in a Box and then take them up to the accoustic piano and stick them in the little bose radio/cd/ mp3 player. Works great. I get about 12 songs average 5 mins each and use that to play piano bar. At the moment I can stick to the real keys too, cause I don't have to transpose them for my voice, which might be a silver lining. I was having a lot of fun using Tiger w. and changing the words to Makin Woopie to that's what you get for putting around. He doesn't make much money, only 60 million per...give 80 to her..LOL.

If you can't make decent backing tracks with this software I'll eat my hat, wait ....I'm getting a chocolate one.

The most recent 4 of my 5 LawTunes (http://www.LawTunes.com) albums were created with the assistance to varying degrees and in varying ways, of BIAB as well as other computer software and hardware. My first CD ("The Lawyer's Holiday Humor Album" (1998)) was just me and my acoustic and electric guitar, non-midi keyboard, tambourine, maybe a kazoo, etc. The next 4 incorporated use of BIAB ("Legal Holidaze" (2004); "Merry Lexmas From The LawTunes" (2006); "The LawTunes: Live At Blackacre" (2007); "Season's Briefings From The LawTunes" (2009)), and in my opinion as the program has progressed along with my understanding of it each release has sounded more professional in no small part because of that. Indeed, as a result I tend to think of myself more as a producer than as a performer. I have expressed my appreciation to BIAB in media interviews, such as in The New York Times (http://www.lawrencesavell.com/pdf/20031221nytx.pdf) and on a holiday installment of the award-winning legal podcast, Lawyer2Lawyer (http://websrvr82il.audiovideoweb.com/ny60web16519/LTN/C2C/C2C_121609_Holiday.mp3). I am indebted to PG Music for creating this wonderful and educational and FUN tool, and to the contributors to this forum for their kind and knowledgeable assistance, in helping me exceed the considerable limitations of my abilities.

Im sure the Beatles used clicks on somethings, makes sense blackbird is all acoustic, a ballad... no drummer, how else would you be able to stay in time, if he did it all live than it certainly would make sense.

But if Ringo was goign to be playing on it, there would have been no click track.

So you found an example, but MOST beatle songs were done live band, no click.

i've tried to add a metronome to dozens of their songs, and it never works. certain passages work but it starts to drop off as the song progresses.

Show me a led zepplin song played to a click track...bet it takes u a long time lol j/k

Well be positive and say it wont come back!

Ive been spending time trying to find good albums/songs recorded by biab and to be honest im having a hard time. It all sounds like midi to me. The main thing I notice is that the instruments seem to have a dull sustain at the end of their passages, I guess thats cause when it changes chords something alters it.

People choose guitar picking styles, and those are the worst sounding in my opinion. Drums and bass sound good enough but the stringed instruments dont in my opinion.

Piano sounds kind of lifeless as well.

As you said "if I cant get decent backing tracks ill eat my hat. Decent works for gigs, but for recording original music?

paint me "on the fence"

Lol, interesting niche you got there. I think your stuff is good, it doesnt sound like a band however.

Also, if it's not too late, your vocals are way too high in the mix, cant hear anythng else when the singing is happening.

Cool site!

I used BIAB MIDI tracks on my second album in 1996--mostly bass and drums. The bass was fine but the sound modules available at the time did not produce convincing drum tracks, especially brush drums. My 2007 album used the first sets of Real Drums, midi bass, midi banjo, and midi keyboard in a few places. I overdubbed guitar and mandolin and brought in guest musicians to handle background vocals, electric lead guitar, harmonica, and, on the last song, piano. This hybrid form of arranging and recording works well for me. You can hear clips at CD Baby--see my signature link. (A banjo player friend of mine asked me who played banjo on one song--a BIAB midi file coupled with a great sampled banjo fooled him.)

The introduction and explosion of RealTracks has been a game-changer for BIAB and for the way I work. I rarely seek out Midi styles these days. My current project features RealTracks on piano, organ, bass, fiddle, pedal steel, and all types of electric guitars. I have added electric and acoustic guitar. The blend is to my ears incredible once I put the tracks into my DAW and add eq, compression, and reverb. The next album will be out this fall and it will be interesting to get feedback.

I spent a ton of money on my first album back in 1994--studio, musicians, blank reel tape, engineer, etc. It was fun and if I won the lottery I probably would want to try it again. But when I listen to the fine musicianship of RT players I realize that I have found more than an acceptable compromise.


Fred

"I suggest you read some articles."



You obviously have no idea how many articles I have read concerning music. That is funny.

I'll take a cool down spell. That article you quoted does not mention a click once, so I am kind of lost as to how that applies to what I said.

I agree, music has been going downhill fast, and certainly the commercial crap they are pumping out now. Some of it makes me shake my head... but not because of a click track.


The Beatles were great writers and the strength of their songs still carries on.
Those of us old enough to have worked with tape (you referred to yourself as an old-timer, remember) would not expect a finsished product to stay with a metronome. Tape stretch, speed, bouncing etc. Fading off the metronome over time would be the expected result. Let alone the vinyl aspect of the older stuff.

PS I think you give Ringo a bit too much credit.

Thanks. Your comment re the mix is a good one. The mix made more sense when I was doing lawyer humor albums where it was critical that every word be understood. My new project is neither law nor humor, but a 60's surf album of original tunes, and I'll make sure to turn down the lead vocal to avoid the situation you noted. I'm also going to have significant backup vocals which I do not want drowned out.

I'm not sure how to remedy your perception that it does not sound like a band. I already spread things out with panning. I could vary the volume of individual tracks relative to others more doing the course of the song. Perhaps I could add an element of anticipation or delay to some tracks. Any thoughts on achieving that particular goal from you or others?

Thanks again.

Well if the old stuff was great, and the new stuff sucks, and the old stuff didnt use clicks, but the new stuff does... mathematics

But here is an article that used to be on Groupeffort.com i had cpied but it's not on the site anymore.

The Drummer Vs. The Drum MachineAnalog drum machines have been around since the 60s, and were actually used on Sly Stone recordings in the early 70s. Digital drum machines revolutionized the pop sound of the 80s, with everyone from the Cars to Prince using them in their recordings and live performances. This revolution opened the door for a new form to take hold: rap. Machines were the perfect companinion for rappers in the late 80s who just needed a beat as a backdrop to their rhymes. Live drummers continued to be born though, and many have either consciously or subconsciously been influenced by the presence of the drum machine. This includes enduring the lame-o cracks that we're suddenly replaceable. Ah, the drummer jokes.

Regardless, this competition with machine resulted in many drummers feeling the heat to up their game: beats had to be cleaner, time had to be steadier, tuning had to more perfect, etc., etc. As a result modern drummers tend to reflect the stoicism of the machines. I would argue that while their may be gains to the art form in certain aspects, what's been lost is the soul that was once present in live drumming. A beat created by a human drummer is a thing to behold. No two drummers play the same beat the same way, each bringing his own musical preferences, life experiences and well, soul, to the table.

Little things like speeding up the tempo during a chorus and pulling it back during the verses (ala Charlie Watts), are becoming things of the past. While I'm on the subject just say no to click tracks. You think Black Sabbath used a click track on War Pigs? My work here is done ~ jb

There are (and always have been) drummers that can keep time. The benefits the click offers are now functional.

By that I mean, now it's possible to have a drummer (or a machine) do the rythm section while getting tracks down, and then go back and re-do the drums with a different drummer, whatever. Track limitations in the tape days didn't really support this feature. The click is there as a marker. Both for the performer and for the engineers.
The trick these days is finding a drummer who can hear a click and play behind when needed and push it when it's called for. This is the new drummer. They have to know their licks, but also know their technique to make it all work.

Sure there are drummers (and bands) that record without one. If you have access to such a drummer take advantage of it (but use a click anyway for the other tracking and editing advantages). The click doesn't "have" to be a steady metronome; you can adjust it as needed thoughout a song. There is often a jump there when people say a metronome is a click track. It CAN be, but often is not.

I'll tell you that while BiaB is not perfect, you *could* adjust the click track throughout the song to match the feel. You can even record it with the human only feel, and then use the tempo map generated by the program to sync a click for a drummer, etc. (instance count in!) It doesn't have to be a perfect metronome to be useful.

I think you are putting blame on a click, when it lies elsewhere, more in the 'one man does the whole show' area. Nobody is great at everything.

The click is essential today because of plug and play and diy's and daw's.

If you're gonna have other musicians play parts for you, they cant play after your part is done, they need to be playing at the same time. so when not playing at same time the click essential, but it also makes the music not nessecarily bad, but not "live" sounding. For rock music, live sounding is what your should be striving for.

For pop...or singer songwriter stuff, the new way is probably ok.

BTW, how does a drummer push or pull back behind a click, when the other instruments are doing something else. generally drummers play with a click in one ear, and a reference track in the other
ear, but the reference track is generated via a click track as well.

Now what do you mean about using all human feel in BIAB?

How is that done, Im not crazy about "humanizing" effects, they just create random flucuations but not
human ones.

When a drummer slows down, the rest of the band tends to adjust their timing, then when the bass player is behind, the drummer catches him, often without even realizing it, they just find themselves because the song structure mandates it.

Cant beat a real band, real band doesnt come close, but looking at what is out there, it might be the best there is.

Well I think using midi sources like strings and such makes the rest of it sound like karaoke or midi.

But I did notice one song headin home on a holliday night used all real tracks and it sounded a bit better, but yet the music was so far behind you cant make it out.

Having said that, for your music, which is humour and quirky, the sound is not a destractor and may add to it, with all the electric bells and whistles. Nobody expects that to sound like a an artists album.

I was just comparing it to what a real band would sound like to see where BIAB stands in that sense.

But in the future, I'd lay off the midi stuff, if you want strings play them over the real band tracks just like you do when you sing.

U'd also might consider not using patterns that highlight individual notes like for example, there was one song that had a piano in it but the piano was doing solo lines throughout the chord progression, same thing with fingerpicking guitars in biab, they dont sound real.

The strumming tends to get mixed in with the rest better, but the individual notes stand out, and not in a good way.

It's good in a way, because im already learning what to do and what not to do if/when I use biab.

Yes pushing and laying off is what live is all about, but if the first guitar player played to a click,
he records HIS feel against the click, then the second guitar player plays HIS feel against the track.
Then the Drummer records HIS feel against the track.

If they are all playing at the same time, then they will balnce each other out because their intuition takes over, using a click, each new player doesnt know where the previous musicians erred in micro timing.

Anyway, That's a pretty cool feature to be able to add a click to a varied tempo recording.
and then have the real tracks play to that.

In fact, now that I know it's possible, I will begin each song with a sketch guitar with no click.
I can see where that would help with humanizing, and thanks for the tip.

Rermember, in your first example above you said the first track (guitar) played his feel to a click ... that is exactly right. Bt there is *something* there to follow for everybody. That track may not play every measure of the song ...

Honestly, just having the count in is great.
Than having the click play the tempo while (for instance) that first guitar track is holding chords for four beats .. it helps in a lot of places. Most of us recommend using it. Saves a lot of studio time in the long run.

I use the ACW plugin to set tempo to an existing recoring. It usually gets it right in the ballpark for any final tweaks.
There is a lot that comes with the program.

I don't think I've ever read so much about click tracks...

Well things are starting to click.

Before you know it we might form a click around here.

and all this time the clock is clicking...

When I import my BIAB tracks into my DAW I either nudge the track or use Waves Pitch to detune it a couple of cents to avoid sounding too sterile and I can force the drums to snap to a point just shy of the beat in places. Another thing is to make sure you are using the same reverb on everything, nothing sticks out more than having different room types on each track. There are a zillion ways to treat BIAB tracks, they key is that it's band in a BOX, don't leave it in the box
Heres one that has all the midi tracks detuned and the real tracks nudged, I removed the BIAB default reverb and added my own over all and snapped the drums a bit to be a little ahead in spots
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=8727888&q=hi

Sounds pretty good Zan, although it's way loud. For that type of song it suffices.

But it still sounds like a lounge band in a smoky Holiday Inn. Or one guy doing a one man band in a holiday Inn. But again, that's the kind of song it is. A 50's style blueberry hill ish kind of song.

I dont know that would compete with todays sound, but it's a pretty decent recording of an original song.

To click or not to click that is the question
or
is it better to have clicked and lost than never to have clicked at all....

I had a simular discussion a few years back on another forum where I basically maintained that we were all deluding ourselves thinking that we where producing quality stuff and I defied someone to come up with a single artist that has achieved any kind of success as a totally single act. The posts went back and forth for a while with a lot of folks having input on both sides of the discussion until someone gave us a name. "Prince".

Get your tools together. Learn them. Use them musically. Be demanding on yourself and your finished product and stop whining. Just do it. If BIAB is the tool fine. If not fine. Use Sonar, Cubase, ProTools whatever. But do it.

Time now to follow my own advice.........

Well it's easy to throw a name around, I doubt very much Prince used band in a box, perhaps as a writing tool, but not on an album. But if somebody can verify this, I'll admit my ignorance.

Nobody is whining, We're trying to take a proven road to getting quality recordings, so far it hasnt been proven to be more than a musicians learning program and sketch composing tool.

And we know about protools and cubase. Those are completely different tools.

I like how you try to tell me to go to hell, but not actually say it...lolllllll

a true diplomat. but nothin gets by me.

Quit whining about my posts and find me some asnwers, okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk?

Tee hee.

Boy you took all of that in the wrong way!

What I'm trying to say is I really don't care what program you use, one person is not going to be able to come up with the same quality of product as a group of persons of the same talent level. Some of the posts had went into working with other people and the problems with doing that vs being able to control everything by yourself. I know that I can't afford a band to go into a studio so I'm stuck with doing it all myself. However, I'm smart enough despite being 'polish' to know I will not have the interaction that working with others can give me. I have several tools. Others have several tools and most pro's have many tools. I'm sure that there is a reason that a lot of users here use several different programs in their work. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to make a top selling number one album or even a single with only BIAB. I have made a cd that has sold that was totally created on BIAB but I really don't brag about it because quite frankly it wasn't that good. I also have noticed that most of the material that is posted for review isn't all that great. I also notice that we are going to disagree on what is good and what isn't. Fact is, in one of your early posts you commented that the back ups sounded weak but the vocals where quite nice. I thought the vocals had way to much reverb and the although the backup was weak and could have used some pumping up the tracks where quite good. With better mixing (something BIAB doesn't have high marks in) the backup could have cooked as it had the right notes, licks,, for the songs.

I also said that whining about BIAB, or any of this isn't going to do anyone any good. You or me. I really think we just need to use the tools for what we are capable of getting out of them. A master carpenter gets a whole lot more out of a saw and hammer then I do. If I took the time to learn how to use the saw and hammer I wouldn't need to buy the whole Shop Smith to build something of value. If you think the tool is only good for sketching things out then use it for sketching things out and use the tool of your choice to build the master piece you're trying to achieve. Bottom line, though, not many people are talented enough or educated enough to really build the masterpiece by them selves. That was the reason for the reference to Prince.

Finally, if I insulted you, sorry. Didn't mean it that way. I should have been more tactful with my points. Quite frankly, one of my personal problems has been to blame the lack of equipment or software for my lack of progress. Truth is the fault has been with me for not spending the time learning my craft well enough and then practicing it. Have a great new book that has most recently turned me back on. Guerrilla Home Recoding, How to get Great Sound from any Studio by Karl Coryat.

I agree with what most of what you said, it's just if im going to use protools and all the OTHER stuff,
then why do I need BIAB. We're talking about BIAB, we're on a BIAB forum. We're hear to talk specifically about BIAB.

as for commenting on vocals etc, Im not going to hammer somebody completely by saying that not only do the tracks sound bad but so do the vocals. lol. Ill try to find a positive to comment on.

Bad singing certainly makes the track unlistenable at times.

but telling somebody their tracks are AWESOME, WOW THAT'S SOUNDS GREAT, is a disservice.

And I disagree with most people cant tell the difference. I doubt u'd see some kid going to a music store trying to find tablature for a BIAB guitar part that was used in somebody's recording.

But they would seek out tabs for a real guitar players work.

I think it depends on what style music you're doing.

But for people writing their own songs, my advice would be to use all real tracks, or only use top notch midi sounds.

Band in a Box comes with a 30-day "no questions asked" money back guarantee.

That is like getting a full-featured demo for 30 days.

Why don't you try it out for yourself and if you don't like it, return it within the 30-day period?

That would make more sense than all of this, man.


--Mac

Every good band I hear the drummer starts out with clicks. Then if he's good it doesn't change. Even Oscar Peterson played to the drummer. And try that with 10 notes per second and stay on time. Now I know a drummer we will call Bob. The guys who've played with him, and that's a lot of guys around here, all want to shoot him after an hour. He drifts. A lot. in and out of tempo. Starts out 3/4 and can change to 4/4 in a measure. Drives you nuts. But he has a rehersal garage, 6 grand worth of drum kit, a 100,000 buck Motor home a vette, and a big sound system. And he spends hours with his apple gear and drumming along to beatles and CCR and stuff, but the minute you turn off the tunes and he tries them, DRIFT. Now that sounds authentic, just don't dance to it. The thing with learning to play high end piano. The wife started at age 4, and ended after 4th year university music with a BA Mus, BEd Mus, and Honours BaMusicEd. She can play Bach like a machine. Perfect beat, set the metronome, shut it off and turn it on at the end and she's still on beat.

Scary.

We play together once or twice a month and I get glared at ALOT. But I'm 60 and still learning from the wee young lass.

You will never resolve the midi argument. Some terrible stuff shows up with local organists playing old standards on one radio station and I have to turn it off. A 20 year old drum machine and some midi strings and it sounds like click crap to John. Mom LOVES the sound. The violins are so real. (John rolls his eyes), the drummer is very good, (John loses his lunch). Go to any club where they are serving sizzling fajitas and clanking dishes and you music becomes a background sound. Don't kid yourself that more than 3 or 4 people out of 100 actually listen, and most of them wouldn't know elevator music from Peter Appleyard. (The latter may not be well known by 'yall').

Point is I think the horns sound bad, but play them, the guy who doesn't thinks they sound good but the guitar is off, but I like the guitar which I think sounds real. Hey if Oliver Gannon doesn't sound real who does?

sounds like a good suggestion

I agree at live gigs where they serve fajita, nobody cares. Nobody ever goes there saying "wow i hope theres a band playing, it will make dinner so much better"

if they do look for music, it's at a club/restaurant designed for that venue.

Nobody ever cares about live music in the run of the mill public place. Ive done gigs alone with sequenced tracks up the gazoo, nobody ever asked for a specific song. Most people walk by as if you were a ornament in the place.

you get your occasional "what are you doing here, would you sing at my wedding" course, 99% of the time they never contact you anyway.

I have one video of me playing in a bar and you can see three guys shooting pool the whole time, im not even sure they realized music was being played for three hours.

So If u can get a gig like that, by all means use your biab and midi stuff, but this conversation was mostly geared towards home recording.

How is biab going to hold up if I record original songs with it, thats the focus of the conversation.

Record with it? BIAB is not a DAW. It's an auto arrangement program - a tool for helping you put tracks together easily. It works great, if you know what you're doing and know a few program tricks. You will still need a DAW, such as Sonar, Pro Tools, Cubase, or even PowerTracks to track and mix your final product.

Second, home recording is not the same as recording a band in a pro studio. From what I can tell, you just don't like the idea of solo home recording in general. Well fine, go rent a studio and hire a band. I'm not going to prove to you that BIAB will make you sound just like Eric Clapton live, because that's probably not going to happen (unless you're Eric Clapton or have incredible talent). The final product will only sound as good as you make it sound.

But, IMO, you're not going to find a better, more affordable solution for creating studio tracks quickly and easily than BIAB.

I doubt you're Eric Clapton either lollllllll

I know Biab is not a daw, but an accompaniment software. but can you use those tracks for an album of your original songs and be radio ready(even it's internet radio or be broadcast ready...or the biggest of all be rock n roll????)

The question isn't what I think, but what do you think?

http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...true#Post241154

My fav is "Lucky Break". You may or may not like it.

My music credo is "the spice girls sold millions of records and I didn't buy one." Meaning we all like what we like and hear what we hear. You could replace the spice girls with any group and the statement would apply to someone. But the fact remains millions of records were still sold whether I or you bought one or not. grin.

BTW here's another one you might be interested in. The band is called "Elegance".

http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...ge=0#Post227372

Now, don't be dissin' the Spice Girls. At least some things on this board have to remain beyond reproach.

he's a really good singer, the song is just ok, the arrangement sounds more like a demo than a record, but his voice carries the whole thing.

He also has specific parts in there.

I didnt like the drum sound choice.

Ton of compression.

I think it passes for this kind of tune. nice find.

And I agree people like what they like. But great production can and often does sell a pop record.

"hit me baby one more time" by brittany spears is a horrible song, but a great record.

Would rharv please explain how to use the click track to modify individual tracks tempos. I don't think I saw that anywhere in the manual. Thank you very much