BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education?

This is where I get pompous, arrogant and downright snooty and play devil's advocate.

I have a lot of issues with the extremely young kids these days and music lessons. Nobody learns "music" anymore. Nobody learns the chord wheel, nobody learns how to read, nobody learns theory. They all know where the "Start" button is that plays other people's work. I was in a music store last fall and there was one of those speedburner losers playing hammer-ons all up and down the neck of a Les Paul. When he was finishing impressing himself I sarcastically said "Cool. Now can you show me a B flat major 7th?" I can't post his reply here or I'd be banned.

When I started in April of 1955 at 4 yrs and 10 months of age, I was not permitted to sit at the piano for 6 weeks. I sat at a chalkboard looking at a music staff and a plastic keyboard mock up. He would point to a line or a space and I had to show him the right key on the fake keyboard. I had to know what 1 flat meant, and 2 sharps..... I had to identify where the half steps and whole steps were on a keyboard for the different key signatures. I had to know chord formulas for major, minor, 7th, diminished...

None of that happens anymore. Kids take lessons and learn songs, not music. That is sad.

The band I play the annual reunion shows with now is 10 pieces. 7 of those 10 have music degrees. It is such a joy to play with schooled musicians who understand the theory of why things happen.

Now, obviously, experience is a great teacher as well, and this doesn't take away from the value of playing for many years. My point is that every house has to have a solid foundation, and formal training is that foundation.

So, to the original poster, I would take some of your budget, find a good teacher to teach you theory, and take that framework and develop it. BIAB is a GREAT product and a GREAT tool, but it is a LOT easier to use BIAB when you know from theory what chords relate to each other, time signatures, chord voicing, transposition, etc....

Just my dime and what worked for me.

Just with my limited experience I couldn't agree more.... As part of my search for my first guitar and amp I made several obligatory visits to the local GC on a Saturday... Bad idea... half a dozen youngins ripping off licks at break neck speeds ... and after a few played chords.. I interjected

..."What chord is that?" answer: "I don't know, but it goes like this"....

From what I see the majority of people that are playing... (not professionals or serious students) either want to play a song because its a "cool" song... or they want to look "cool" mimicking their guitar idol... Somebody told me that without an understanding of theory and a thorough understanding of the fretboard layout.. if one is just learning hand positions they are in effect becoming a "guitar monkey"... "Do this, then that and then this... repeat it twice and that's the song".....

Lather, rinse and repeat. Sort of like a "cut and paste" mentality...

I had a year subscription this year with Trufire (now Next Level Guitar) that both have a fairly good amount of lesson theory...I really enjoyed it... so much so that I spent more time reading that and figuring it out on the fretboard of my guitar... To be fair to the GC youngins ripping their licks... the expectation to the general public isn't "show me what theory you know" .... its more "Oh you are learning guitar, Great! Play me a song"....

That happened to me the other day... my brother comes over and says "play a song"... When I tell him that I'm learning theory and haven't learned or studied individual songs... He says... "You have been doing this for 9 months and can't play a song(?) .. I guess its not working out for you!"

An SOB yes... but my point is that to the huddled masses, the uninitiated .. the clueless... they look at and grade success or failure based on whether you can play "Stairway to Heaven" or "Sweet Home Alabama".... (depends on what side of the Mason Dixon line you were born I suppose)

There is a ton of free videos on theory... For a beginner.. these were great... sort of reminds me of my grade school teachers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXIEmMDwc7E&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqGKVjPnHlY&feature=related

But I agree... taking theory with a real theorist should / will be part of my plan......

As an aside... now that I have an amp with a great gain channel... I finally understand why alot of people play the heavier styles... an awesome gain channel covers up a lot of my bad technique...!

Hi Bob
I play a lot of instruments I started on cornet and trumpet, then guitar, then sax and now keyboards. I play all styles including a lot of rock and blues mostly on sax but also guitar.

Lets get one thing out of the way BAIB will be your best ever purchase apart frrom your guitar - get it. Its got its fiobles but its absolutely great for you in so many ways. BIAB will make you want to play with a band and it will help you find out how you can achieve this.

Firstly you should know that there are different ways to learn any instrument.

1] The 'classical' route (and I dont mean just for classical music) if I can call it that, starts with some kind of tutor book a bunch of notation and set exercises. There are many limitations to this method. Its not very good at teaching your ears to hear things, also when the paper is taken away the student tends to fumble and fall over. Many 'classicaly trained' students simply cant play a note unless it is written down by somebody else. I dont think you want that do you? The classical route wont give you what you need for rock

2] The "By ear" route

With this route you simply sit by your record play (or Biab) and plunk away until you get a nice riff, repeatedly until you can make your way through a song. There are many good players that learn this way, but ask them to play a C# diminished and they fall off their stool.

3] I could call this the 'Jazz method'.

A jazz player can read music, but also understands harmony. Therefore when he learns that lick A works with bar 1 he also knows that lick A can work with bar 17, and in a lot of other song settings, he/shje will also know how to alter that lick to make it sound even better. By reading chord symbols and impovising over them,(S)he learns to free his music from the tyranny of the written note.

Obviously, these three distinctions are just stereotypes, and one can use a mixture of all ways, but many beginner rock players need help with theory. My tip is start with the blues and dont be afraid to delve into a bit of Jazz to gain that deeper understanding.

A common mistake beginner guitarist (and classical players) make is that they think they can dispense with harmonic theory - this is a very handicapping mistake, better never play a single note until you understand why its there.

This book will give you as strong theory background

Volume 1 - How To Play Jazz & Improvise Jamey Aebersold Jazz Series

Its a great accompanying volume to BIAB

Bobby Z,

One caveat, a sort of warning, about BIAB. Get a pad and paper. You'll need it for two reasons.

First, WRITE DOWN A BRIEF STATEMENT OF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH BIAB. Put that piece of paper somewhere that you can see it whenever you're using the program. Here's why.

BIAB is the deepest piece of consumer software I have come across. So far I haven't found bottom. That's a good thing and a bad thing. The bad thing is that you will keep finding new features. In the process of chasing them down you may lose sight of what you were trying to do in the first place. That's what the first piece of paper is for.

The good news is that some of those features will lead you to things you never would have thought of on your own. You want the rest of that pad of paper so you can write down questions as they come up so that you can pursue the answers in an organized fashion. Otherwise you may be continually distracted by the neat new things you will find (and keep finding) on the way to your musical bliss.

I offer my own experience as a somewhat extreme example. I bought BIAB in the early 1990s in order to quickly create song demos. It's a fantastic tool for that and does it very well. In the process of pushing buttons, though--mainly changing Styles--BIAB began to do some unexpected things to my songs. In effect, it started suggesting changes in my music.

Good news and bad news again. I have all abandoned my former pop songwriting attempts. I now use BIAB as I would a hardware sequencer, creating electronic backings for my electric blues playing. I never would have thought of it on my own, and I'll never go back. In effect, BIAB has become a co-composer. (While I primarily work in MIDI, I have fooled around with Real Styles enough to know that the same principle applies.)

So, WATCH OUT! Unless you do this in an organized fashion, you may wonder what hit you. I mean that in a good way.

Again, welcome to the community. I look forward to seeing you grow with us and with BIAB.

Richard

Funny Ryzard, But I have found it the other way round. I have had BIAB for a long time too and never use any of the detail - because - I am just too busy playing.
At most I bung in a few chords and pick a style. I would like to record though, but thats another story. What BIAB has done for me has focussed me back on actually playing

Hi Bob,

you have received many good tips what to do. I summarize and include my opinion.

1. Wait until December. Usually pgmusic offers a bargain. It's usually about 200 bucks cheaper than during the year.

If you can wait that long:

2. Take one or two guitar lessons to have a teacher evaluate your technique and your abilities. Ask that teacher what and how to practice until you come back next year.

3. If you have some money left, buy a guitar teaching DVD set of the music genre that you like to play -- but not your major preference. You will practise, and listen to, your major preference anyway, so you may have another influence on your playing.

4. practice, practice, practice. If you have a chance to play a gig, do it. There is no better practice than playing four hours on a stage.

Best regards.
Guido

Yes. Very important for me to identify the agenda... while I want to play for enjoyment.. I also want to have clear thought out goals and put the regimen together to hit that goal... I can't wait to get started with this..

I don't want to wait until December... I feel that I need to get started sooner... As far as DVDs I just got a set yesterday... http://www.nextlevelguitar.com/delta/

I am going to look for a local instructor to evaluate where I am at... which I sort of already know... Pentatonic box position level... working on my chord vocabulary and chord progressions... but yes definitely to sitting down with an instructor!

I can't add much, you're on the right track with a good attitude. One thing: Ask any potential instructor if they use Biab. A lot of them do, it's in music schools all over the world. If you were local to Redondo Beach I would refer you to a great guitar teacher I gig with and he uses Biab with his students. That would be ideal for you for obvious reasons.

Bob

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4. practice, practice, practice. If you have a chance to play a gig, do it. There is no better practice than playing four hours on a stage.

This is the best advice of the thread. Remember that playing 3 sets in some little dive is NOT Carnegie Hall, and even if YOU think you sucked, the crowd who doesn't play at all will not know any better. All you can do it play the best you can play.

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P.S. Pssst ... here's a secret ... Music is about songs. Music is NOT theory. Theory is a useful tool to describe why music works, but it is not the master of the music. Music is the master.

What? Music is not theory? Of course it is, every piece of music out there is based on very solid classical theory concepts.
There are certainly lots of well known star players that don't read or know theory but they're in the minority. When you read the bio's of some of the biggest names in the music biz you'll find a lot of them have music degrees or had parents who made their kid take private lessons from age 5 through high school including the ones who may be known for really basic 2 and 3 chord folk or country stuff. I remember one heavily tattooed 22 year old big star who talked about how he formed his band in the garage but went on to say his mother was a gradute of Julliard, used to do classical concerts, she has a 7 foot Steinway in the living room and he was raised in music since he was a toddler. Yet this kid is doing heavy metal grunge stuff. Everybody knows who Keith Emerson is now but back in 1973 I was in a group that got booked as a warm up act for an ELP show. During set up in the afternoon I hear this fantastic classical piano going out through the sound system. It was him warming up on a 9 foot concert grand.

People need to learn the theory. In general you're not going to get too far without it.

Bob

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Quote:

P.S. Pssst ... here's a secret ... Music is about songs. Music is NOT theory. Theory is a useful tool to describe why music works, but it is not the master of the music. Music is the master.

What? Music is not theory? Of course it is, every piece of music out there is based on very solid classical theory concepts.
...
Bob

Of course it is not. Yes .. every piece of music out there can be explained by very solid classical theory concepts. But theory didn't come first -- music did. I am not anti-theory, in fact I believe the more the merrier. It is just that when I hear about a 4-year old child strapped to a chair, with their eyelids taped open, forced to watch endless videos on music theory (wait ... that was clockwork orange) -- I just gotta say: That is no way to teach music.

Kevin

Bob this thread contains much good advice except dont get the idea that you can ignore theory this, as I have said above would be to severely handicap yourself. You need ears too, but ears alone makes for confused mental mapping. Theory will allow you to categorise your learning, tell you what will apply elsewhere, make your understanding clear and transparent, speed up your muscle memory, impress your friends, enable you to communicate with other musicians, help you read, and with hard work, let you bend and break any rule (eventually, only) Learn your triads, your scales (bluies scale too) and their modes, then other chords too.

Summary so far ... with my thoughts....

BiaB is an excellent tool for a 1 year player to get to the next level. Sound purchase.

You don't need the Audiophile edition. The difference at home between the two versions is indistinguishable.

Once you have BiaB you will find applications for it that you didn't even think about...

Get and utilize a local instructor in concert with using Biab. Extra points if the instructor uses BiaB in their teachings.

Learn how to develop your ear. Learn via the Jazz method .. harmonic theory.

Have a clear plan as to what you expect BiaB to do and how you are going to utilize it to get to "what" goal. Have clearly defined goals and milestones as progress checks.

Think of learning not as sequential steps but more as ... there are boxes in front of you and each one needs the same attention... Rhythm, Scales and Modes, Chord Vocabulary, Develop your ear, fretboard layout, be able to analyze chord progressions. know the major scales cold in addition to the pentatonics.

Theory is just as important as the playing as that is the language used among players to express their creative ideas.

****

It all sounds great... I just need to digest this guitar purchase for a bit and then get the Biab.

Bob Z,
I think you are making some very wise decisions. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and a good attitude towards life in general. With an open mind you will surely go far. I've been playing, studying, learning, performing, practicing music for 40 years of my life and I really think that had I discovered BiaB sooner it could have had potentially life-changing effects. (It still will, only a lot of options are no longer open to me b/c of family and career commitments)

But all things aside, as a lesson plan, and as a learning tool, I don't see myself ever exhausting everything that is in here.

It's the one thing I'd have to have if I was stranded on a desert island (with a computer and several instruments to play with, that is

)

Let the debates rage on. Over in the guitar forums a lot of guys are still hung up on tube vs. solid state, rosewood vs. maple necks, round wound vs flat wound strings, scale lengths, neck radii, body finish....it goes on and on and on. Stay off that train and just find what gives you joy.

The mind is like a parachute...it only works when it's open.

Dan, your post made me smile as I thought back to the day when one of my guitar snob friends was going on and on about those "preference" items you mentioned. He was at my house one day and we got into the debate and I set him up with a blindfold test. He SWORE he could tell DiMarzio pickups just by sound. I blindfolded him, handed him my Les Paul with stock pickups and had him play 32 bars. Then I told him "Okay, now play the other one." And I took the strap off that Les Paul, put it right back on the same Les Paul, and handed it to him. And he went on and on about how THESE pickups had "more bite" than the first guitar.

Way too many people are like that. They spout the party line and go on and on about things they really don't know about. Have you known people in your life like I have that change guitar and/or amp every month because they are looking for "the sound" and the fact is that THEY suck? (see: "jam night")

I had to explain to someone once, and it really hurt her feelings, that there is a difference between "someone who knows how to play an instrument" and "a musician". "Someone who plays an instrument" is who you see at jam night playing the 2 songs they know, hanging around the music store a lot and talking a lot of smack about this amp and that guitar and these strings and those picks... but nobody actually ever sees them play. "Musicians" actually understand why "Yesterday" was a great piece or writing, with the verses being 7 segment phrasing rather than the standard 8, or why certain chords belong to the same family and others aren't. I have had my fill of guitar players who think Van Halen invented the right hand on the neck technique when it came from flamenco players (most notably Django Reinhart) who died before Van Halen was even born. Not everybody has the time to invest in formal training, especially as we get older and have lives. I started young, again not everybody had that option, and you can't turn time back. By the time I started college to begin studying toward my BA in Music, I had already been playing 18 years. That's just me.

I will never forget the day some kid told me, after seeing Gary Busey in the Buddy Holly movie, that Buddy Holly did a lot of Linda Ronstadt songs.... oy.

The point of this post, and my original, is that if you are going to do music, do it 100%, not just well enough to impress yourself and your drunken friends by ripping the one 64 bar solo you know. Dazzling the crowd is the easy part, especially playing cover music. When the crowd likes your originals, you have arrived. (PS. They don't like mine. LOL!!! I will keep working.)

Bottom line, do what works for YOU because your situation is unique to you. If you DO have the time and finances to study formally, I endorse it highly. It depends on where you want music to take you. If you want to make it your career, that is one set of circumstances. If you just want to toss a band together to play 40 songs in a bar twice a month, that is another set of circumstances that will take you down a different path. If you would like to someday try writing jingles for TV and such, theory training will help you immensely. It is harder than you think to write something to get your thought across in 28 seconds. That market is dying though as companies now use public domain pop music. (Think John Lennon knew he was writing Revolution for a Nike commercial? At least Todd Rundgren gets paid for his work when Lambeau Field plays Bang on the Drum after a touchdown.)

Be well, and good luck. I am now done with this thread.

Local music store.

100 E-lectrical guitars on a wall, very impressive.

Right in the middle is an index card on which is typed...

NO STAIRWAY

I LMAO. Guy in the store said it was from some movie.

2 guys play at the cancer clinic. They have machines A to N numbered that do radiation. I was in F, 35 times. In the huge hall on the main floor is an atrium. On the 2nd floor are 5 doctor clinics with 5 docs each, and the big chemo room with about 100 people in there.

2 guys come in, one with an upright bass the other with an electric guitar. Both are almost 80. The electric guitar looks like he's had it since they were invented all beat up. They have a small amp. American songbook stuff, 1 verse with melody somewhere, the other 2 or 3 or how many they decide by a nod. Bass Solos. Every guitar move known to man in a classy style. You could listen all day.

I talked to them. They knew Oliver Gannon, and the bassist told me Neil Swainson was playing a gig in Toronto. They play on Tuesdays and Thursdays for 2 hours each day. 3 floor atrium makes for a great reverb, but it's laid back.

You don't get cash just get to play. I played on Mondays, but now I go every 6 weeks and I ask for Tuesday appointments at 2 o'clock so they are there. I feel better then.

"Let the debates rage on. Over in the guitar forums a lot of guys are still hung up on tube vs. solid state, rosewood vs. maple necks, round wound vs flat wound strings, scale lengths, neck radii, body finish....it goes on and on and on. Stay off that train and just find what gives you joy."

This is funny. I spent the better part of last year on these same forums... to where my head was spinning... I must have spent 3 weeks of my life learning about tone woods... Brazilian rosewood (dalbergia), Cocoloba, Honduran Mahogany... Paul's Private Stock, tightness of the grain... There was one guy that said that 2 guitars being exactly the same with the same strings and pickups could tell the difference between them on whether the top was flamed maple or quilted maple.... something about flamed maple was more linear and the quilted maple gave a more open airy sound... !!

It was the same thing with amps and effects...

So I went down that whole road and thankfully came out pretty unscathed... I ended up getting something that I liked and so far its working out well...

I do believe that with the internet a lot more information is readily available to Joe consumer (obviously) which is a good thing... it helps the consumer make an educated decision on purchases... One just needs to be able to cut through the BS of which there is a lot.. and stay focused...

Reminds me of the time I saw a video on youtube of a rather prominent national level guitar player explaining what effects he uses to get "the clean sound". I watched about 4 minutes of him stepping on stuff and turning knobs. I then went to his web site and found a "mail to" link for him. I emailed him and asked him a simple question.

"Doesn't clean, by definition, mean 'using no effects'? If you want clean, why don't you just turn all that ^%#@ off? You can't get cleaner than guitar through amp with no pedals, right?"

And 6 days later I had a reply that said "Well, yeah, I guess that would work too....."

That was one of the best laughs I ever had.

And the bottom line of that story is "What works for you is the right way."

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Dan, your post made me smile as I thought back to the day when one of my guitar snob friends was going on and on about those "preference" items you mentioned. He was at my house one day and we got into the debate and I set him up with a blindfold test. He SWORE he could tell DiMarzio pickups just by sound. I blindfolded him, handed him my Les Paul with stock pickups and had him play 32 bars. Then I told him "Okay, now play the other one." And I took the strap off that Les Paul, put it right back on the same Les Paul, and handed it to him. And he went on and on about how THESE pickups had "more bite" than the first guitar.

Your post made me smile. Awhile ago we had two singers. One insisted that analog reverb was the only way to go while the other said digital was the only way to go. Each had brought their reverb units with them. So I did the same thing as you. I did a blind test but kept the analog unit plugged in. Both singers sang then they left the room so I could theologically change reverb units. Both said they could hear the difference between the two takes even though the analog unit was plugged in during both tests. Don’t you just love it!