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Posted By: Brian K Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 09:29 PM
I am new (since last January) and have 2010.5 for windows with the 318 rebuild download.

I've been able to figure out things pretty well til I wrote a song with a bridge followed by a chorus (using term traditionally)then a key change to two stanzas, a two line tag and then out. I find that I really don't understand much of the way first and second endings apply or don't to a given situation.

With A being a 4 line stanza, B a chorus, C a bridge the format is A A B A A C B (key change) A A tag end.Would someone be able to advise me on this? Sure would be grateful...I've been getting nowhere for hours. I get close by creating a long tag which serves as the part from C forward but I can't stop B from repeating before the bridge(C)because I am using the BIAB formula of calling once through (A A B) a chorus with a two chorus format. Should I just go linear with no repeat? That has caused me memory problems with other songs until I figured out what they mean by a "chorus".Sorry...I bet that's completely confusing!Thanks!
Posted By: Muzic Trax Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 09:48 PM
Hello and welcome : )

I use Edit - Unfold (to one long chorus). The "unfold" will layout your song from start - finish. That would be the easiest way to set up your verse, chorus etc . . .

Trax
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 09:52 PM
Thanks Trax! I take this to mean that I really have to stop thinking in the terms we use when playing in the real world and forget trying to use first/second ending approach in BIAB. So what you're saying is basically yes...go linear. So unfold cancels all this stuff I have saved that isn't working?
Posted By: Muzic Trax Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 10:08 PM
I don't use tags, repeats etc, but there are tutorial videos available to walk you through the set up of those features.

Linear, yes. That is the easiest method for me when working on a full song with codas etc . .

You can save prior to the unfold and just rename it when you unfold it and save again

Trax
Posted By: rharv Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 10:08 PM
No, I think it will incorporate all that stuff, but at least then you can see how to go about fixing it. I find Realband easier to work in for just this reason. BiaB sections of a song sometimes don't agree with what I want and I have to stop and think about it. RB is more 'linear', and makes more sense to me. Your mileage may vary.
I get a progression and tempo and style down in BiaB (which is a ton of the workload when writing songs).
Then I move to RB to lay it out in a linear form I find more comfortable. It's free to try; it came with the BiaB disk. I know a few people that were used to recording on the old multitrack systems, and since RB acts like the old tape decks they took to it right away. BiaB and RB are different ways of getting the job done. Some like a circular saw to get the cut done quick, some like a jigsaw to get the cut done clean. Often it depends on what yer cuttin
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 10:37 PM
Thanks rharv. I'll start working with RB.Trying to figure out how BIAB views song structure has eluded me.Can't find anything on it that seems to deal with in a clear way...not yet anyway!
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/09/11 11:04 PM
Brian,

Like the above, I always unfold a song into a single chorus. It's so much easier to work with. I use the blue and green part markers to separate individual sections. Below is how I laid out a song with exactly the verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus format that you describe.



I: 1 - 3
V: 4 - 13
C: 14 - 23
V: 24 - 33
B: 34 - 37
C: 38 - 49 (includes ending)

I = intro; V = verse; B = bridge; C = chorus

Just in case you don't know, the blue and green part markers are obtained by left-clicking on the bar number (one click for blue, two clicks for green, three clicks for none). These markers are important because in the bar before a part marker there will be a drum break and instrumental variation that helps to aurally define the transition from one section to another. Typically, the section that begins with a green part marker will have more melodic and rhythmic movement than the section that begins with a blue one (hence my use of green for the beginning of the chorus).

Hope this helps,
Noel
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 12:54 AM
That's really super helpful.The screenshot is great! Thanks Noel! This basic structure thing really should be logically addressed in a candidly and simply written section called "structuring a song".Maybe it is...this program takes a bit to find the info you need. I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. What a great forum...thanks to everyone. One question: working this way is it necessary to use the "unfold" feature in edit first?
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 01:19 AM
Brian, I also prefer the one-long-song approach, since it leaves nothing to chance and allows me to control exactly what I want to hear.

While the experience of others may be different, I have sometimes found that my melody gets a little out of place if I have multiple choruses and a tag with a melody, then add some measures or raise the number of choruses. In other words, I prefer to get the song structure locked down - however it is, with multiple choruses or unfolded into one long song - before doing all the final copying of the melody into later choruses and tags.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 03:20 AM
Matt,thanks for the reply.You helped me out last February and then I got into other things for awhile. This song formatting I find completely confusing and it seems I'm not alone. The reason I stopped going linear is that it seems to get a little jammed up and not play as well. I had one track that just went nuts on me. Having no idea why or how to fix it I just did it over.From what the guys have taught me here today I am able to proceed...I am concerned about the impact going straight through on a linear path seems to have on the sync of certain instruments though. Any tips on that?

Thanks again....much appreciated!

Brian
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 03:27 AM
Brian,

I always use the above linear approach and it has not impacted on instrumental synchronization at all.

Sometimes, though, a track doesn't always generate with the best choice of sounds for a particular section. That's where Realband is excellent. In RB it's possible to take a generated and track and then to superimpose generated sections of that track. This makes it possible to build a track that suits exactly.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 03:53 AM
Brian, I have not had any sync problems in over a decade, and the last time I did, it was because of a badly behaving network card.

Clearly, you should not be having sync problems, which I take to mean that something gets out of sync as time goes on. To help you, we really need details about your system: hardware, OS, BIAB version, BIAB MIDI settings, ASIO or MME, VST or hardware synth, etc. Whether the problem is repeatable, which RealTrack(s). The whole thing.
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 05:20 AM
I wonder if it is confusing to say "one long chorus" when the word "chorus" is traditionally defined as "the common part that repeats after the verses".

I use what you are calling the "linear" approach as well. No loops, no codas, no repeating sections.... start with measure 1 and go to measure whatever and call it all "song". It does have an intro, a verse, a bridge, a chorus, a midtro, a half verse, a bridge, a chorus, a solo, a chorus, and an outro. Sometimes I extend sections with an extra 2 measures of a suspended chord for tension before the release provided by the chorus, and that "looping" approach would get sticky for me. Unless I could specify "go back to measure 22" (and I am sure there is a way but I don't care to spend hours reading help files that are named with cryptic names to find it) that doesn't help me. So it's "linear" programming for me, what I prefer to call "top down", a computer programming term.

This is the kind of stuff I referred to in another post I called "Simple Mode" in the wish list forum. Have a mode that takes all that window dressing off the screen and just have the spreadsheet, the file utilities, and the transport controls. Again, I suppose there is a way to hide all the icons I will NEVER touch, but I can't use the time I should be writing for reading hundreds of help files.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 09:51 AM
Hey,Eddie.Yeah..."top down"...ok. "Cryptic names"...perfect! Just trying to sort through the process of finding the information required per a simple musical need is enough to drive most musicians nuts.Me anyway. That and the presence of endless useless "styles" that sound like they were made by a four year old to annoy his mother! I must take some time and form favorite lists of styles...I think I saw a way to do that.It's a great program though and I don't regret buying it...just wish I could get through the learning curve. I have no patience for wasting huge amounts of time with badly represented information topics while musical ideas vanish into space. But then,the the entire computer world is plagued by this extra terrestial "what?speak" so...whatever! I would love to see an "I want to" index with topics created by songwriter/musicians. For example: >Delete all time signature changes back to chosen style default so I can start over addressing this only without wiping out the whole sheet.<

I am doing a bluegrass tune which has a recurring measure of two.In the process something got screwed up and two thirds through it starts visually lagging behind the playback...first by two beats then 4 etc...seems to increase as playback continues. There is something schitzy in this change time signature procedure...I've had this happen before. I ask it to change one measure and it changes two....sometimes...aaagh! Is there a way to undo these changes? Is there a trick to this?

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated!
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 11:16 AM
Brian,

One way that I have found that often takes me back to some kind of beginning when bar settings go awry is to left-click on the chord sheet, select "Bar Settings" from the pop-up menu, and then down the bottom of the dialogue box that then pops up is a button labelled "reset all bars". I have found this reset useful.

A word of warning ... if you decide to try it, save your song with a new file name first so that you can always reload the old song if needed.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Tommyc Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 12:28 PM
How about putting your song (sgu mgu ) on a link or in dropbox and see if someone bites? Sounds like you just need part markers when your 2 bars are.
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 02:23 PM
Yes, try Noel's suggestion, and if it doesn't help, please post the song. "Out of sync" can mean different things, and I had assumed it was an audio problem. This now appears to be a visual displacement and we should be able to find the cause of it in BIAB.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 04:54 PM
Matt, I tried Noel's approach and got everything straightened out. I did run into the visual sync thing again but it occurred to me that maybe it was because I was using "replay" and the tracks weren't regenerating even though my understanding is that they do that in replay "as required". So I did a play and everything regenerated in visual and audio sync.(Makes sense) I think I learned that there is a point at which a work in progress needs a new "play" so it can get itself together with evolving changes. Besides it seems that if there is a preferred playback version it seems to come back around soon enough anyway...two or three cycles seems to get back around to it.

This program has enabled me to write again after an accident two years ago that disabled my left fingers and learning the value of this forum has really encouraged me.(I've been playing since 1956 so that left a bit of an empty spot)This program really is a total gas and is NOT difficult...it's just getting the information and learning its behavior that can be quite a process! Definitely worth whatever it takes but without this forum? I don't think so!

So thanks again to all in helping me with this! Now that I'm getting these foundational things worked out thanks to this great feedback I intend to move on to RB which I haven't even touched yet. I look forward to being able to give back here.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/10/11 11:31 PM
Hi Brian,

I'm pleased to read that it's coming together for you. BIAB/RB certainly have learning curves associated with them. It took me a couple of weeks before I started to feel comfortable with the programs. After that, the learning curves didn't have quite as big a slope to them! One thing that I can say with absolute certainty, though, is that the effort I put into learning was well worth the results that these programs gave me.

Good luck with your adventure!
Noel
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 01:56 AM
Brian, thanks for sharing the good news. And, as you've discovered, Noel is one of the great treasures around here.

Hey, for someone with trouble in the left fingers, there's always trumpet! However, I've been playing as long as you, and I keep wondering why so many people come up to me at concerts and say they USED to play trumpet. What do they know that I don't? Just kidding...

Matt
Posted By: jcspro40 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 02:06 AM
These forums are a great source of info for sure, this is a good trick to know!:)

Like most things, making time to read the manuals & look through the video tutorials is very important, but the live" help you get here is so much better....& quicker! Look at how many vids Peter has made the last few days that answered folks questions, fantastic!
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 04:12 AM
Noel,

A couple of weeks eh? How do you do Data! You must have quite a background in computer based audio. I sure appreciate your help...All that stuff is behind me now and I have a usable track structured perfectly.It was all so simple and yet I just couldn't get it from the manual or help files. Now I'm trying to determine if BIAB allows working with two lead instruments (guitar and fiddle on this bluegrass track to be precise)so they trade off as they would in a live band. Can't find any way to do that....do I have to get it over to RB to do stuff like that?

I'm just starting to look at RB help files.Do you know of a video that would help me get started? I've got allot to figure out as you know better than I!

BTW I'm working on XPPro in an HP DX2400, Intel 2.6 dual core, 4mb ram, 500 gig HD. No outboard synth.

Listened to some of your music....nice...very nice! "Amazing to Me" is a good'n!

Thanks,Noel.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 04:15 AM
Yeah buddy! BIG help! Can you point me to some of those vids please?

Thanks
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 04:33 AM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for having a listen to some of my music. BIAB makes it fun compose songs. The software has taken me to places I could never have gone without it!

You questions ...

Firstly: regarding two lead instruments trading off one another. That is indeed possible. I'll write up one way that it can be done and post it for you as soon as I get a chance.

Secondly: while I'm doing that, you might want to have a look at some of the videos accessed by the following link.

Link to videos

(these are found under the Support button at the top of the web page)

The "Powerguide" zip file at the very bottom of the page looks very interesting. The new features in BIAB 2011 is well worth watching too. This is right at the top of the web page.

Also, if you got to http://youtube.com and type in Band In A Box, you'll find that there are a number of videos available there, too, that users have put together.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 11:40 AM
Hi Brian,

One way to create the kind of trade offs that you are after is as follows.
  • Put one of your solo Realtrack in the "Soloist" position of BIAB.
  • Put the second solo Realtrack in the "Melody" position of BIAB.
  • Make a note of which bars you want to change from one instrument to the other.
Essentially, what I'm going to suggest below is to activate one instrument for a range of bars and then to mute the other. This is achieved by using "Bar Settings" (where the previously mentioned "Reset all bars" is located).

As an example, let's use fiddle and guitar as the two instruments (as you suggested).
Now, say I want the guitar to play bars 1 to 8 and then the fiddle comes in for 9 to 16, and then it goes back to guitar at 17 until the end of the song.
  • Right-click on bar 1 and select "Bar Settings".
  • Set the Melody track to "Normal" (see picture below).
  • Set the Soloist track to "Mute". (I'm assuming that the guitar is in the Melody and the fiddle is in the Soloist.)
  • Right-click on bar 9, select "Bar Settings".
  • Now set the Melody track to "Mute".
  • Also set the Soloist track to "Normal".
  • Lastly, right-click on bar 17, "bar settings", and set the Melody to "Normal" and the Soloist to "Mute".
  • Generate the song.
That should do it!



Each time you make a bar setting, BIAB will put a red rectangle around the bar number as seen in the picture above. (The picture indicates that I've set bars 1, 9, 17.)

NOTE: If the picture doesn't show up, it's because of a web issue. I'd try again later if that is the case.

Good luck!
Noel

P.S. When you get the hang of this, you might like to look up "Soloist Medleys" in the 2011 New Features pdf that's located under the Start Menu in the BIAB folder. This feature is also covered in the 2011 New Features video on the website that I gave in the post above.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 03:58 PM
Hi Noel,

I am using a bluegrass style that has a lead acoustic real track already assigned to the piano track. I assume I can reference that track in the same way you describe?

Will volume settings also be saved as manipulated during a playback?

I found that PDF but I did not find any procedure outline for that topic.(soloist medleys) Just a "you can" reference.

Yes...this program is an awesome writing tool. I can't imagine how anyone could figure it out in two weeks! I was wondering if you could design a viable cold fusion energy plant in your spare time..that is if you're in the mood! We old cats just aren't wired for this stuff so it takes a considerable amount of time to grasp what is being discussed....we grew up and cut our recording teeth on hard wired signal flow so I find myself always instinctively looking for a signal path so I can understand what I'm actually doing....where it's coming from and where it's going and what it's running through on the way but it just doesn't "think" that way. I'll get it...eventually! LOL

I'll work with this trading off thing today and let you know how I do.

Thanks much! It's really good of you to take the time to help like this.
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 10:21 PM
Hi Brian,
Quote:

I am using a bluegrass style that has a lead acoustic real track already assigned to the piano track. I assume I can reference that track in the same way you describe?



Yep, you sure can. Just use mute/normal for the Piano track.
Quote:

Will volume settings also be saved as manipulated during a playback?



Yes they will. When the song is saved, all bar settings are saved with it.
Quote:

I found that PDF but I did not find any procedure outline for that topic.(soloist medleys) Just a "you can" reference.



I cheated and used CNTRL-F to find the phrase "soloist medley". The "Now let's make a soloist medley" section begins on page 11 of the 2011 New Features guide. (It's on page 18 of the 2011.5 New Features guide.)

One thing that might help make using "Bar Settings" a bit quicker for you is to use F5 after you click on the bar. (When you right-click on a bar, you'll notice that "Bar Settings" has F5 to the right of it. This means that F5 is the shortcut key for "Bar Settings".)

All the best. From what I can tell, you're starting to get this program under control!
Noel
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/11/11 10:57 PM
Quote:

...I wrote a song with a bridge followed by a chorus (using term traditionally)then a key change to two stanzas, a two line tag and then out.




If you're happy with working with one long chorus fine but maybe you want to create a fakebook type of chart and that's where the 1st/2nd/coda/tag stuff comes in.

Part of the problem is the age old definition of terms. You said you're using the term chorus traditionally. That can still mean different things to different people. Biab uses the term "chorus" in the classical sense, basically the whole song with an intro at the front and an ending at the end. Everything in between is called a chorus. Don't ask me for the detail on that but it has been explained here before and that is a correct usage of the term "chorus". There's plenty of music teachers on this forum who have verified that. Biab does not use the terms verse, chorus, stanza, bridge in the way that most of us pop players use those terms. I agree with some here that it would be better if they did but then we would all be arguing about what is a stanza, no this is a bridge, not that, blah blah. PG has created their way of doing it and that's it.

If you need to do this then think in terms of PG's definition of chorus. You start with an intro but the intro can be as long as you like, it doesn't have to be a common 4 or 8 bar thing, it could be a whole say 50 bar section of your song and the chorus starts on bar 51. Now you count the bars and figure out where you want the end of the chorus to be and you set those bar numbers in the boxes in the middle of the menu line that says beginning chorus and end chorus. The beginning is bar 51 and the ending is whatever. Within that chorus you set up your 1st/2nd/ending leading to a bridge after the 2nd ending and it will repeat back to the beginning of the chorus, (the A section) play that again and then set up a tag or coda where it jumps to the first bar after everything else and again that doesn't have to be a short tag, it can be another 20-30-50 whatever bars then set up the final ending. The final ending could be another eloborate section.

Once you get used to the convention, you can take this tune and put it into that format if you need to but as Matt and others have said, this can get complicated and it is simpler to do the whole thing as one long song (chorus, remember) if you don't need the other stuff.

Bob
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/12/11 03:01 AM
Thanks Bob.

Excellent information very well conveyed.I must say that PG would do well to consider a few paragraphs of human - friendly discourse on this very subject since it is highly probable that most of their buyers are pop songwriters. (After all it's not called "Orchestra in a Box"...imagine what THAT would do to sales!)Then again I must respect the immensity of the task that is the undertaking of explaining how to use this program from that paradigm as well as the fact that the entire world of computer technology is not, by nature, friendly to the pre-ET dimension of mental process.(That was a joke but I don't see how to insert an icon here!)It is up to us to figure out the maze. Must say they sure did a fine job putting it together (imagine the dimension of the endeavor!)and on this forum we find our clarity. Nothing but praise for all the fine people at PG who not only created this fine tool but also wisely created and host this superbly crafted platform for us and thanks to everyone here.It's a pleasure to become acquainted with this product,its company and to communicate with some of the really smart,creative, and very helpful people on this forum

Let's keep learning and writing!

Thanks.

Brian
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/12/11 03:11 AM
Again, Noel, I thank you for your clear instructions. I added some fiddle today but haven't had time yet to do any detailed work with the track. I live in Nashville and it was HOT today! When I got home there wasn't much left.

At least I'm not grappling with the fundamental form anymore! And amen to that! Yes...it's starting to be much less intimidating!


I'll get back on it and let you know how it goes.Appreciate the F5 tip.

Thank you!

All the best to you as well!

Brian
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/12/11 03:19 AM
There is a great deal of power in F5, and much in right-click, too. Not to mention that, for every new version, I take time to look at every menu option, and I continue to be amazed at all that is in this program.

Just play with everything for awhile and have some fun taking it all in.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/12/11 06:59 PM
Thanks Matt.Will do.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/13/11 12:27 PM
Hi Noel,

I made a copy to practice on,went in and made some track edits but when I tried to play back have no sound on this new copy at all. The original plays fine.

What could I have done?

Thanks
Posted By: Mac Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/13/11 01:00 PM
How did you make the copy of the songfile?

I would use Explorer to highlight, Copy and Paste the file to another folder. I would then change its name slightly so I could tell the two apart.

Attempts to Copy and Paste from inside BiaB are not likely to copy all the data needed, such as Patches, etc.

Also, be advised that attempts to Copy an already corrupted song file would likely only copy the corruption as well. Sometimes a song file becomes corrupted from heavy editing sessions or perhaps running out of resources during long sessions - or if the program crashes or freezes while working on that particular file - and the only cure for that I have found is to hit New and start all over again, entering the song from scratch.

--Mac
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/13/11 07:20 PM
Mac,

Thanks for your response!

Here's what I did:

from the original song file which was then and is now fine I went to file, clicked "save song as",changed the name and clicked save.I got a new version named as requested. I do not remember if I tried to play it before going into bar settings and setting up some mutes and return to normal entries for the solo acoustic guitar track. (It's a bluegrass style and I added a RT shuffle style fiddle on the melody track which made the stock Guitar track too busy...that's why I'm pulling the guitar in and out)

After doing three Mute-return to normal entries I tried to play it back and got no audio. Then I went back to the original and it plays fine as do all other works in progress in the BIAB song folder.

As far as saving a song file another way such as your suggestion to use explorer..I do not know how to do that and was not aware that the save method I'm using could lead to trouble.

Thanks!

Brian
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/13/11 10:47 PM
Hi Brian,

Below are some thoughts that occurred to me regarding your problem given all that we've so far been through.

It could be that the "Mute" for "all instruments" was accidentally activated at bar 1. To double check this, go to the Bar Settings on bar 1 and have a look at the very top setting of the Mute/Normal box.

Another possibility is that the style has inadvertently been disabled. If this is the case, it can be seen as a black cross next to the style name. (See picture below.)



To enable the style, simply click in the style name and a menu will pop-up that will allow to you activate the style.

If it turns out that neither of the above is the culprit, the below is what I'd try.

Use F5 to get into Bar Settings (or right-click on the chord sheet) and then "Reset all bars". Now generate the song by hitting the play button and see if any sound is heard. If not, it sounds like the file is faulty.

In this instance, I'd simply open the original saved file (this is the beauty of always keeping the original file intact) and create another version of that original file to work from. (For some reason, every once in a while, faulty files arise. I've found that it's usually a whole lot simpler to re-start from scratch rather than try to find the "why is this so" solution. I know that this approach is a bit of a pain but it is often the quickest solution in the long run.)

Also, before going through and adding the "mutes" and "back to normal" settings, I'd generate the song. This shouldn't make a difference that I'm aware of, but maybe it does. It's worth a try as a different approach.

Hope these thoughts help.

Regards,
Noel.

P.S. You're really starting to learn about BIAB now
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 04:08 AM
Thanks, Noel.

The problem was that BIAB was failing to create a full and functional copy using "save song as" so I could change the name and not risk my "master".I was getting copies that showed the new name and the chord chart but they would not produce any sound. Also strange was that the file copy was reduced from 93.4 MB to 19.4.

I kept deleting the copies and trying it again. Same. Then I tried unfreezing the tracks before saving and the program locked up so I clicked "end program" and reloaded the master. Everything came back intact so I tried another duplication with new name and that time it worked so I went ahead with the new copy and edited the guitar leaving the shuffle fiddle constant throughout and the end result is an excellent bluegrass track. I'd need a really good band to do better...amazing what this program can deliver...and I'm just getting started!

What happened? Who knows? All's well that ends well! Sounds like a temporary glitch in the anti matter influx sub-quadrant divider to me! Hate it when that happens.

Thanks for your help...again!
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 04:18 AM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the update. Sure can't trust those anti matter flux dividers

By the way, my next question was going to be about frozen Realtracks! You're a mind reader!

Please keep in mind that when you do the bar settings, it is necessary to unfreeze the Realtracks and then generate the song. The concept of "freezing" is used to keep a Realtrack exactly the same; freezing stops a Realtrack from being modified in any way whatsoever. This means that any changes to the song can not be reflected in the song until all necessary tracks are unfrozen and the song is regenerated.

By "necessary", I mean that if the change only affects (say) the Piano track, it's only necessary to unfreeze the Piano track and regenerate.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 04:48 AM
Noel,

Interesting...I did not know that and did not unfreeze the lead acoustic....the changes recorded perfectly!

I didn't unfreeze because the take from BIAB was the one I wanted to work with...and still it worked! Computer "logic"! Next time I'll do the same and see what happens...I'll let you know.

Cheers
Brian
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 04:51 AM
Brian,

It's good hear that it's all coming together! I look forward to hearing how it worked out for you.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Mac Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 02:03 PM
Quote:

...After doing three Mute-return to normal entries I tried to play it back and got no audio. Then I went back to the original and it plays fine as do all other works in progress in the BIAB song folder.







Maybe you did not first push PLAY button in order to have the new songfile generate the parts before trying to edit...


--Mac
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/14/11 10:12 PM
Good thought...maybe that's it.

Thanks Mac
Posted By: Mac Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/15/11 02:32 PM
Or maybe you're just dumber than a salesperson...


YOU OWE EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM AN APOLOGY, DUDE.


--Mac
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/15/11 08:30 PM
Ok,Mac. You're right. My apologies.

Brian
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/16/11 03:43 AM
Actually, Mac I've been thinking this over and I think your comment to me was more insulting than mine to Peter.

So why don't YOU apologize to me since we are so into apologies.

Just who do you think you are? The apology god?

You know,Mac...with the number of anonymous visitors on this site every day who are trying to decide whether or not to buy into this program it might be wise of you, who obviously supports the product as do I,to be a bit more civilized yourself. I have already admitted my own guilt as to not being infallibly immune to confusion and frustration leading to perhaps imprudent expressions of emotion. (You can look that word up...from what I've seen of your posts it might not be in your vocabulary)
Posted By: Noel96 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/16/11 08:45 AM
Dear all,

Brian doesn't owe me an apology.

Anyone who reads all the above responses prior to Mac's post (#323993) can see that there has been nothing in this thread that anyone needs to apologize for. It's all been "business as usual" in here.

For the record, I have really enjoyed helping Brian and he's been very sincere in his appreciation.

Regards,
Noel
Posted By: Mac Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/16/11 12:50 PM
Sheesh.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/17/11 09:27 PM
OK...Enough...my fault...my bad!

Let the comedy continue as we all continue to do what we do best....make music!

Let's just move on...OK? Enough!

Truce?
Posted By: eddie1261 Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/17/11 09:33 PM
Everyone knows how to use "ignore", right? I suggest you do so, as I have, and see where he goes for help.

He does indeed owe the users here an apology, as well as needing some human being lessons. Cement headed bully doesn't work in 2011. At least not with me.
Posted By: Brian K Re: Formatting the song structure - 07/17/11 09:56 PM
Actually, Eddie,I believe that I have already complied quite adequately with that request.

All the best,

Brian
Posted By: FranksRiffs Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/07/14 04:10 PM
NEEDLESSLY COMPLICATED?: Maybe. If you understand what BiaB is doing it may help. If you have a group of sections that will repeat more than once you can consider that collection as a "chorus" and create it that way in BiaB. Then enter the number of times to repeat.

Regarding the intro. The intro is any number of bars that you set BEFORE the "chorus" section. These bars will NOT repeat.

The outro/end exists as anything outside the LAST "chorus" bar.

If you use this procedure to create the basic structure you can then UNFOLD the chorus and BiaB will present you with a traditional linear presentation.

The explanation is here:
Band-in-a-Box uses the Jazz convention that a "Chorus" is the whole song. This topic covers the terminology of:

Intro

Verse

Chorus

Bridge

Tag

You'll need to use the "Framing Controls" of Band-in-a-Box, where you set the chorus begin bar, the chorus end bar, and the number of choruses to repeat. These controls are found just below the song title window on the main screen. The defaults for a new song are [1]-[32]x[3]

INTRO
How long an intro is, and what is included, is determined by what is in the 1st number box of the framing section of Band-in-a-box. So if your first chorus starts at bar #17, you have from bar #1 to #16 (16 bars) to do what ever you want to with. You could create a standard intro, or with instruments coming on one at a time every 4 bars. You may place part markers to go from lighter to heavier feels. You may include as many bars as you need to, but this section will only play once at the beginning of your song.

VERSE/CHORUS Section
"Chorus begins at bar #17" means that everything from bar 17 to the "Chorus ends at" bar (let's choose 48) will play or repeat as many times as you have indicated in "#choruses". In this section it is a good idea to make full use of the part markers, which will give your song a different feel, especially in the bridge.

BRIDGE
Contained within the main framing section of the song between the chorus begin and chorus end bar, the bridge is usually emphasized with the use of the "B" substyle. To make your song even more interesting, Band-in-a-Box allows you to do style changes at any bar. Experiment with two styles that are similar, and later with wildly different styles.

THE TAG
The tag can also be used similarly to the intro. You can make it as long as you like. It will fall outside of the "chorus begins at" and "chorus ends at" section, and it will only play once at the end of your song, after the choruses have been played. It could consist of the chords for a bridge, a key change and chorus restatement, then a full ending. To set up the tag ending, click the [S] button found just to the right of the framing controls to bring up the Song Settings window. Place a checkmark in the Tag Exists box and then specify how you want the tag to be played by typing the bar numbers in the 'Tag jump after', 'Tag begin at', and 'Tag ends after' boxes. In our example, say we set those to 40, 49, and 56. This means that the song would play through two chorus, play the third chorus up to bar 40, then jump to bar 49 and play through to bar 56. Note: A Tag will only work if there is more than one chorus set to play. If your song only has one chorus, the a tag isn't needed.

THE 2 BAR ENDING
This automatic feature can be selected if you do not want to create your own ending with held bars/instruments and/or rests. It will add 2 bars to the song and auto-create an ending for you. You can toggle the 2-bar ending on/off in the Song Settings window just underneath the Tag settings.

In summary, the entire song that we have set up in the examples above would play the following way: 1-48, 17-48, 17-40, 49-56, and if we have turned the two bar ending on, bars 57-58 would be the ending.

Band-in-a-box 2004 and higher also have options to use repeats, 1st/2nd endings, and codas in your song. The Repeats/1st-2nd endings/codas feature is mainly used if you need to create printed charts that show those symbols. Click here for more information about this.
Posted By: Matt Finley Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/08/14 05:49 AM
I'm trying to figure out a few things here. Why was this thread resurrected after 2 1/2 years? The OP hasn't posted in a year and a half.

And what did the OP say for which someone demanded an apology to all forum users, while leveling an insult at the OP?
Posted By: sixchannel Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/08/14 12:43 PM
All praise to FrankRiffs for a great explanation but something not right here. How did he, as a Newbie, find this 2 year old thread in the first place and then have the knowledge to post such a comprehensive and thorough review?
Just my thoughts
Ian
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/08/14 01:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley

...

And what did the OP say for which someone demanded an apology to all forum users, while leveling an insult at the OP?

Whew. I'm glad I wasn't the only one trying to figure all of that out. I went back through the thread discussions. I didn't understand what suddenly happened to change things. I interpreted that the O/P seemed to be genuinely grateful for all of the advice given. Then something went extremely wrong. Beats me why though.
Posted By: Mac Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/08/14 03:00 PM
Its the Internet.

Okay, "Welcome to My World" is up, nice 'n easy, key of Bb, One, Two, One, Two, Three, Four...

Matt, take the first solo, 'K?


grin



--Mac
Posted By: DrDan Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/08/14 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
I went back through the thread discussions. I didn't understand what suddenly happened to change things. ...


That kind of stuff used to happen more frequently then recently seen here. But things have of way of cycling.

And regarding how this tread got resurrected, to now include a nice overview, is beyond me?
Posted By: AudioTrack Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/09/14 12:50 AM
Originally Posted By: jazzmandan
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
I went back through the thread discussions. I didn't understand what suddenly happened to change things. ...


That kind of stuff used to happen more frequently then recently seen here. But things have of way of cycling.

...

Thanks Dan for the clarification. I'm glad things have changed. In any case, we're all actually supposed to be working on the same team, right?
Posted By: FranksRiffs Re: Formatting the song structure - 02/09/14 05:35 PM
Hi All, I found this thread by searching something like "song arrangement." I had become very frustrated in trying to do the simplest thing - arrange a song, lol.

P.S. My first BiaB purchase was for the DOS version. Coming back to it after more than a decade away.

Incidentally...people should know that there are SIGNIFICANT feature differences between the Mac version of BiaB and the Windows version. Just sayin'.
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