Pricings getting further out of reach?

Hi FiveHands,

There's a huge huge difference between BIAB 2009 and the present BIAB.

From memory, I'm guessing there's around 3 times the number of Realtracks (if not more), the stretching routines used to work with today's Reatracks is vastly superior, and both BIAB and RB have undergone some major programming modifications.

As a comparison, I have the UltraPlus Pak (wma files) and, because I upgrade at every opportunity, I have spent around $500 - $600 in upgrades from 2009 through 2009.5, 2010, 2010.5, 2011 and finally to 2011.5. The $300 to upgrade from audiophile to audiophile is cheap by comparison. Personally, I do not think that you are going to get any better value than that (especially given that the gap between 2009 and the latest version will widen).

As already mentioned, the today's version of the program is a whole heap superior.

Kind regards,
Noel

1. Can you put a negative number in there?

2. Will it work?

1. Can you put a negative number in there?

2. Will it work?

Yes

==== EDIT =======
Oops... I'm wrong there. Those settings in Prefs-Arrangement are just for MIDI shots, holds velocities.
The only way to change the holds/shots volumes is by the method below (Soloist-Generate and Play - Edit - More dialog)
=================

You can also edit an individual real tracks holds and shots volume.

Main menu -soloist -Generate and Play a soloist- edit button -> more button and then adjust the holds
Video showing it: http://screencast.com/t/jppByEaRjx
Note that if you do that, it will stick until we update the files default.sol and rtextra.bin, which we do frequently.

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Main menu -soloist -select soloist- edit - more and then adjust the holds

Peter,
I don't seem to be able to follow the path. Could you be more specific please?
Thanks

I think the path is:
soloist/generate & play a solo( or push the S button)/choose a solo/edit/more.
If one was to do a lot of changing are you saying all the changes would be wiped out at some point?

I haven't upgraded since 2009. The RealTracks in 2010 weren't what I really needed most.
I see how 2011 version has really changed things, with a lot of new features and some really great RTs, But I also agree that missing one upgrade shouldn't put you in the lowest catagory.

I've also been a BIAB use since the Atari ST, crossed over to the PC and haven't kept up with all the updates.
I went from an early version to 2008 and then 2009.

I know the 2011 is much better, because I can here it in the songs that people are posting.
They sound much better. But I just don't have the money.

I know they give a lot, but it still is very expensive for a first time buyer. And by missing one upgrade puts you in the same place as someone who hasn't upgraded for 5 years or more isn't right to me.

Please don't get me wrong. I love this program and would love to have the latest version, But I also love my home Heating Oil. And they have no loyalty to anyone ever.

I'll be waiting for the Christmas sale.
Wayne,

Wayne, I understand your point, certainly. But you have missed four upgrades, not one: 2009.5, 2010, 2010.5 and 2011.

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I haven't upgraded since 2009. The RealTracks in 2010 weren't what I really needed most.
I see how 2011 version has really changed things, with a lot of new features and some really great RTs, But I also agree that missing one upgrade shouldn't put you in the lowest catagory.

I've also been a BIAB use since the Atari ST, crossed over to the PC and haven't kept up with all the updates.
I went from an early version to 2008 and then 2009.

I know the 2011 is much better, because I can here it in the songs that people are posting.
They sound much better. But I just don't have the money.

I know they give a lot, but it still is very expensive for a first time buyer. And by missing one upgrade puts you in the same place as someone who hasn't upgraded for 5 years or more isn't right to me.

Please don't get me wrong. I love this program and would love to have the latest version, But I also love my home Heating Oil. And they have no loyalty to anyone ever.

I'll be waiting for the Christmas sale.
Wayne,

Yes you are right Wayne the Christmas sale is usually the best deal. In past years users who have the same version older than 2 years were only charged $20 more than others for the standard ultrapak, so I see your point entirely utilities and more pressing matters come first.

With a bit of luck the sale at start of Dec will have similar offers to past years. Upgrading band in a box twice yearly (though its a must have program) can over a period of several years add up to many hundreds of dollars.

I do understand the point of others as well that its money well spent, indeed it is if one has the cash to spare.

musiclover

I think people need to keep this in perspective. Most of us do this as a hobby including me even though I am a professional player and do a lot of gigs. My gigging has nothing to do with these programs except for one summer about 4 years ago when I subbed for a friend as a single act. I did use Biab on my laptop briefly for some of that but otherwise it's just a fun hobby.

As a hobby compare this to other hobbies people have, golf, water skiing, camping, RC airplanes etc, etc. What's the yearly cost of going to a golf course a couple times a month playing a round and having lunch in the clubhouse? That stuff easily costs thousands a year. Even basic fun stuff can cost many hundreds. Just a one weekend camping trip or visit to a national park of a few hundred miles could be five bills. Maybe you like going to the lake and renting jet ski's. Easily a grand for one summer of that. My sister is a movie fanatic so she sees all the latest ones and she likes all genres, dramas, scifi, romance, animations, whatever. She's my go to person for reviews because I only see a few, usually the big blockbuster ones like Transformers or Harry Potter. She used to love going to drive ins because those were fun and cheaper than the theater. Now it costs her at least a hundred and a half a month for tickets and popcorn and don't forget the gas in the car. At $4 a gallon gas is not a small cost either to do anything fun. It's all about personal priorities and what floats your boat.

$3-500 a year to keep up with all the PG upgrades and to upgrade your PC every few years fits right into the hobby scenario and is on the lower end of those costs for what you get imho. I certainly know the economy sucks right now and many have had to cut back so you can only do what you can do.

Bob

Just my 2 cents . . . I do between 85-100 gigs per year, all solo, so BIAB is indeed my band. When the gigs slow down or I choose not to do so I will not be updating as much as I do now, which is every upgrade.

Regarding the "pricing getting further out of reach" . . . my thought on this subject is that it is subjective. For instance, not that I have bottomless pockets but to me the pricing is very fair for what BIAB does for me. Sort of like my neighbor decides to drive a new car every year, but I don't. Also it's a choice I make when deciding how to spend my music equipment dollars.

Later,

I totally agree with Bob and usually say so twice a year. The same speach. The bottom line though is the statement,"Pricing getting further out of reach?". To me that's an insinuation that PGMusic is trying to pull some sort of fast one. Nothing could be further from the truth in my opinion. They are a business. They upgrade there product, just like car companies, in hopes of generating more revenue.More revenue means more jobs & more product. If PG didn't sell product you wouldn't have to worry about the twice a year upgrades . They'd be out of business. If you can't afford the updates that's understandable in this economy don't get them. The thing is the program you bought in 2008 works exactly the same now.
Now I'll throw in my typical weird question:
How many do not get the updates due to the fact that your wife,husband or significant other is not a musician and thinks that it's a frivolous unnecessary purchase?

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I'll throw in my typical weird question:
How many do not get the updates due to the fact that your wife,husband or significant other is not a musician and thinks that it's, a frivolous unnecessary purchase?

My hope is the answer to that question in "0" for too many reasons to list here.

Later,

That does not happen here, but I shopped hard and long for wife #2.

My brother on the other hand, now married over 30 years calls to ask how many sheets of paper he's allowed to wipe with in the bath room at the Hudson's Bay Store before getting it wrong, again.

My wife wouldn't know how the money works anyway only 1/2 of her is Hebredian, which according to my spellchecker is really harebrained, but I'm 100% of the Isles, so I trumped her, and I've walked across her island too, I see why they left ach aye.

Why would you ever tell anyone anything about a upgrade in Biab ,they know something is up when you start smiling for no apparent reason . My oldest grand daughter just sprang for mine don't tell mama .

Also keep in mind here that PG Music isn't "holding back" features so there CAN be a "next upgrade". As they come up with new stuff, they make it available. This is not a business model based on planned obsolescence. Your new car will rust. Your new clubs will need grips in 4 years. Your boat needs to be winterized every year. BIAB will keep going and going a la energizer bunny as long as your computer is running, and on to the next computer if you are a smart enough user to run from an image and save the patches elsewhere to avoid a catastrophic crash scenario.

John, glad your shopping resulted in a quality #2. I tried three of them and I am staying out of the store.....

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Why would you ever tell anyone anything about a upgrade in Biab ,they know something is up when you start smiling for no apparent reason . My oldest grand daughter just sprang for mine don't tell mama .

Very nice grand child

I can live with the BIAB pricing. I don't think they're trying to put one over on anybody.

What I want is the ETHENOL out my gasoline. My car was quicker and got 4-5 more mpg before.
Talk about a downgrade. My car went from 23-24 mpg to 19mpg. And lost a some pep.

Wayne, (I love my 1993 Bonneville)

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What I want is the ETHENOL out my gasoline. My car was quicker and got 4-5 more mpg before.
Talk about a downgrade. My car went from 23-24 mpg to 19mpg. And lost a some pep.

Wayne, (I love my 1993 Bonneville)

A BIG +1

My truck went from 19 mpg to 15 mpg! That is without the air conditioning on!

Ethanol, our government’s latest feel good do harm policy!

I've been around for quite awhile too, and it is sad to see the prices getting up to where they are. I know it's a GREAT product, but it is starting to get out of reach for a lot of us.

You talking about BIAB or gasoline, Bob?

Sorry to have to admit it, but tough economic times here at the Jazzmandan house. Always have justified in the past the cost (and I do agree well worth the $), but at this time wifey has placed a lock on the credit card. She tells me she may unlock it soon, so here it is Aug 1, will they extend the sale price?

I can see everyones point of view here, my own opinion is that the program started to get a bit more expensive since the mid year updates were introduced, and since the mid year biab program on its own is no longer free in effect you are signing up to 6 mths updates (instead of a year) each time you upgrade.

Another little thing that annoys me is when a new user appears say around october or november and asks about the program, not many long time uers say "hey buddy its a great program but Please if you can wait to christams time and buy it in the sale you will save $$$$$$$ that way" Its as if its a well kept secret that first time visitors are not allowed to know.

I hope that PG takes everyones views on board and Not SLowly Kill the Goose thats Laying the Golden Egg.

musiclover

The formula is quite simple:

More RTs = more money. As more and more people want specific RTs, which is a good thing, more and more time is put into studio and that means more money outlay for PGMusic. Hiring musicians, recording, converting to RTs and delivery all cost.

The same thing is true for the midi side. If you want good midi you have to put out more money. Kontakt sounds better than SF2s. A $3,000 USD keyboard/tone generator will sound better than Kontakt.

Back to RTs, you don’t have to upgrade the whole enchilada every time. The new BiaB will play the old RTs just fine. So one can upgrade the engine (BiaB/RB) for $69 USD then pick and choose what new RTs you really need.

I know I wanted the whole enchilada this year but other purchases had to come first.

Just my two USD cents.

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I can see everyones point of view here, my own opinion is that the program started to get a bit more expensive since the mid year updates were introduced, and since the mid year biab program on its own is no longer free in effect you are signing up to 6 mths updates (instead of a year) each time you upgrade.

Let's see if I get this. Let's say that PG has 100 new RTs to put out each year.So come Jan. They put out 100 & some upgrades in the program and you buy it. Now they start working on the next release. Instead of waiting until next Jan to put it out they put it out with 50 RTs and some updates in June.Those that can afford it buy mid year & get 50 new RTs. Those that can't afford it get the 100 RTs at the end of the year.So those that can't afford it are at the same place we'd all be if they only did a once a year update. That's how I see it.It's just bugging you that those 50 mid year RTs and updates are out there to buy and you won't do it out of some sort of principal.As I see it those willing to pay $99 mid year are getting to use the new RTs 6 months earlier then those that don't buy it.

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Another little thing that annoys me is when a new user appears say around october or november and asks about the program, not many long time uers say "hey buddy its a great program but Please if you can wait to christams time and buy it in the sale you will save $$$$$$$ that way" Its as if its a well kept secret that first time visitors are not allowed to know.

Not my job.

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I hope that PG takes everyones views on board and Not SLowly Kill the Goose thats Laying the Golden Egg.

Something tells me that they really don't need us telling them how to run their business.

Good points above. The #1 reason to upgrade in the summer is to get those RT's to use now. Plus next December, if they introduced all the RT's that everyone wanted, PGM might not be able to afford as big of a sale price. That's the risk those of us take when we don't sign up for the mid-year update. I hope they have a big sale next December for BIAB 2012, but PGM has to make money to stay in business -- and we all want them to stay in business.

Good points, John. Hmmm, is that once or twice I've agreed with you this year?

Bob

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Good points, John. Hmmm, is that once or twice I've agreed with you this year?

Bob

Bob,
Keep this up and your rep is down the tubes!

I think Tommyc is on the right track here.

How many of us have kids or grandkids that would dearly love a suggestion
as to what to get us for Christmas or Father's Day (although 2011.5 missed that one by a bit this year) or even a birthday for that matter?

And if you have a "significant other", they may be equally happy with getting you a BIAB upgrade as a gift. Mine is ecstatic when she doesn't have to shop for me, to try and "guess" at something I "might" like. So I go ahead with the upgrade and we're both happy.

As an aside, I only upgrade once a year at Christmas.
Nothing pressing for me that can't wait 6 months.

LLOYD S

I used to own a alarm company, and i would go out to give someone an estimate for an install. I would every once in a while get the "Wow that is a lot, I was hoping it would be less" They would quote some ad from the radio or paper for a $199 special. sure if you want the front door and the back door only great go for it. Interesting statistic Of all those $99 or $199 or $399 specials offered, the average end sale was $1,495. No one could run a business selling $199 specials, in fact the sales managers would have their heads if they sold those with any consistency. It was a get what you paid for issue. I knew what it took to keep my business open, with insurance, bonding, licensing, gas, truck repairs, materials, labor, and other cost.

What has this to do with PG music. Here once again is a get what you paid for situation. If you upgrade every 6 months you spend a certain amount of money, every year a different amount of money, every two years even more so, but you get what you paid for. The program and features you want, when you want them. I am sure PG charges what they can get for what they offer, and it is not an unfair price. It might be a lot in this economy for some, but certainly not a lot for what goes into it. They know there business model, and the cost there in. They offer what the bring to market, for a price they can be successful with.

It is like any thing we purchase, we have the option to buy or not. You can go to a expensive 5 star steak and seafood rest, or Denny's. It is up to your budget. If you can afford the 5 star, great. If not don't suggest they lower their prices, To accomodate your budget, get a Grand slam and be happy. I want to own and update several programs, and also want a lot of gear, sadly it is not all in the budget, so my upgrade money goes to PG, since i get the most bang for my buck there. Two years ago i could not afford one upgrade and let it ride. My choice, i had to pay a bit more the next time around.

I Thought Denny's was 5 star?

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It is like any thing we purchase, we have the option to buy or not. You can go to a expensive 5 star steak and seafood rest, or Denny's. It is up to your budget. If you can afford the 5 star, great. If not don't suggest they lower their prices, To accommodate your budget, get a Grand slam and be happy.

I should let this go because it is an extremely valid point. However, I am a smart ass my nature, so.....

Get ready for it....

On my birthday on June 27th, I had breakfast at IHOP, lunch at TGI Fridays, dinner at Denny's and a scoop of ice cream at Baskin-Robbins on my way home. And I didn't spend a penny all day.....

So the punch line is, if I order BIAB on my birthday, is there a birthday freebie?

Hi Silvertones, I didn't mean that as an insinuation by naming the topic Pricings getting further out of reach?. I just mean that $299 for an upgrade for Audiophile is pretty expensive but that's probably the best that PG can do. I just got Cubase 6 for $169 Cdn. but I don't have to worry about another upgrade probably for a year or two. For $299 US I've got to decide whether it's worth it for me that's all because the way I use it is fairly minimal as I explained earlier in the thread. And I've never been happy with the MIDI side of things, it just doesn't generate much that is useful for me. Another interesting program that is also pretty expensive is Rapid Composer. This program is supposed to generate phrases, but it looks like a huge learning curve and they seem to be developing it as they go.

John, Denny's is not 5 star, it is more "moons over my hammies!"

Eddie, did you get all that off the senior menu!

I COULD have used the senior menu, but it was birthday freebie day!! 3 meals and dessert and I spent not one penny!!!

(Well, I left tips....)

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Hi Silvertones, I didn't mean that as an insinuation by naming the topic Pricings getting further out of reach?. I just mean that $299 for an upgrade for Audiophile is pretty expensive but that's probably the best that PG can do. I just got Cubase 6 for $169 Cdn. but I don't have to worry about another upgrade probably for a year or two. For $299 US I've got to decide whether it's worth it for me that's all because the way I use it is fairly minimal as I explained earlier in the thread. And I've never been happy with the MIDI side of things, it just doesn't generate much that is useful for me. Another interesting program that is also pretty expensive is Rapid Composer. This program is supposed to generate phrases, but it looks like a huge learning curve and they seem to be developing it as they go.

299$ is indeed pretty expensive considering that the audiophile user has to shell out considerably more at the outset for that version. Considering the price of hard drives nowadays and how easy it is to image a drive with the audiophile files I would have thought that $199 would be a more realistic price.

musiclover

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299$ is indeed pretty expensive considering that the audiophile user has to shell out considerably more at the outset for that version. Considering the price of hard drives nowadays and how easy it is to image a drive with the audiophile files I would have thought that $199 would be a more realistic price.

Well, let's get back to one thing here. To a guy with the choice of driving the Hummer or the BMW to work, $299 is nothing. To me with a Kia Rio, it is borderline expensive. To the guy with the 1999 Pontiac Sunfire, $299 is off the charts. Money is always relative. I lost my job in May and have NOTHING, so $2.99 would be expensive right now, much less $299.00.

The point is how much utility you get for your dollar. For what BIAB does, if you use it to it's fullest and use it every day, it is a bargain. To a guy who goes to his attic music studio and spends 2 hours up there once a month, not so much. Also consider how much a standard sequencer like Sonar costs and what BIAB does that Sonar doesn't.

This whole discussion is kind of moot because $300 doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.

Hi MarioD,
I know this is way off the topic, but I'm really glad you post what happenned with your truck.
When it happenned to my Pontiac, I thought well maybe it's tune up time or it's just showing it's age.
My Pontiac was really peppy. I loved having that decent sized car and I could zip around if I need to.
Then since I always kept track of my gas milage, I saw it go down into the teens and never come back up. I was really heart broken I thought now I have a slower car and it guzzles gas too. I spoke to my mechanic and he told me it was the ethanol. I never even knew they were putting it in the gas. It was in the gas up here in upstate NY for a couple of years before they put stickers on the pumps saying ethanol.
So now I have an 18 yera old Bonneville in almost Excellent condition that runs like a pig.
Without gas prices going up, we all got ripped off.
Sorry bout my rant, but they ruined my car and many others. My neighbor has an old Cutlass that's beautiful and now it runs like a dog.
Wayne,

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Another little thing that annoys me is when a new user appears say around october or november and asks about the program, not many long time uers say "hey buddy its a great program but Please if you can wait to christams time and buy it in the sale you will save $$$$$$$ that way" Its as if its a well kept secret that first time visitors are not allowed to know.

I beg to differ.

MANY of us who post here often have taken the time to explain this to new coustomers.

We also try to explain that purchasing the largest package that you can afford, that includes ALL the styles is the much better option.

On top of that, if you upgraded or purchased within 30 days of a new release, PGMusic has been dynamite about giving you the new program for the cost of the older one.

Yet there have been those who did not pay heed and then complain...

--Mac

Redguitar - you have a PM.

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299$ is indeed pretty expensive considering that the audiophile user has to shell out considerably more at the outset for that version.

For a new buyer, the closest equivalent to the audiophile version is the Everything Pack and the Audiophile is only $100 more expensive than that, ($669 compared to $569). Maybe that is considerably more, I don't know. I do know for certain that I paid $199 for my audiophile upgrade during the sale, and considered it worth the money.

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Considering the price of hard drives nowadays and how easy it is to image a drive with the audiophile files I would have thought that $199 would be a more realistic price.

I don't claim to have your knowledge about how cheaply a company could go about buying hard drives from an outside vendor, buying and maintaining imaging equipment, hiring talent the likes of Brent Mason to record music, do the recording, engineering, software development, marketing, sales, shipping, video production, software support, website maintainence, and still sell a hard drive full of great stuff for 199 bucks but if you know how to do it, I'll put up the money and we can go into business together.

To run a business the size of PG ( i looked them up) take money. If you sell 5000 upgrades @ $99 each that is only $495,000 deduct the cost of hiring players, paying office staff, code writers, and tech support, building lease, insurance, taxes, phone, computers, lights, and many other things that gets burned up very fast.

I think the whole point of this thread, is that difficult times have hit many of us. Economic troubles are everywhere. We sometimes get frustrated when the very hobby we love become expensive to us personally.

Just remember there is not reason to upgrade if you can't afford it at the moment. Just really enjoy the version you have.