Thought best to start fresh with current problem versus rehashing where we have been. However, if you are new to this and give a hoot, or if you have forgotten, here is where we left off:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=334310&an=0&page=1#Post334310Created a subdirectory - Gig Favorites using BLT, in order to work on selected songs which I will have some vocal component and want BIAB to control Harmonies in the VLT. These songs need a Midi Melody track converted to Audio and they need to have the DXi softsynth disabled so MIDI does not get redirected to DXi.
First Problem - when I render the midi melody it does not incorporate any of the F5 Bar Settings and just plays the melody over every verse. I had to fix this in my DAW to play only over the first and last chorus of my arrangement. OK, I can work with this.
Second Problem - While BIAB now sends MIDI to my VLT - based on the settings in the Pref-OutPutChords, it only works for the first chorus! This is a show stopper since it does not continue to send MIDI over the final chorus. If I Edit-Unfold (Convert to 1-Chorus) it then sends MIDI for the entire tune. But then none of the F5 bar settings are followed... What’s with that??
Here I go again… I know, I am doing it to myself.
So if I am following what you want to do is:
1. Use BIAB as your live accompnient.
2. Have it drive the harmony notes that the VLT will create.
Is that correct? I assume that you are trying to do this with the MP3 aux on the back and feeding an audio signal or are you trying to feed it midi?
I thought on the TC products you could set the scale and feed it any MP3 or audio track and get it to recognize and produce melody.
Thanks,
Terry
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So if I am following what you want to do is:
1. Use BIAB as your live accompnient.
2. Have it drive the harmony notes that the VLT will create.
Is that correct? I assume that you are trying to do this with the MP3 aux on the back and feeding an audio signal or are you trying to feed it midi?
I thought on the TC products you could set the scale and feed it any MP3 or audio track and get it to recognize and produce melody.
Thanks,
Terry
You got it right with items 1 and 2.
However, while the VLT is very versitile and has multiple options for inputs to drive harmony, I wanted what I felt would be the best input option, MIDI from BIAB. Heck, BIAB has a feature specifically for this exact purpose where it outputs midi triads and simple extensions to drive vocal harmonizers. And since the VLT is the Sound Device, I selected to input the MIDI to the VLT via the USB.
In my mind the VLT is not limiting me at all, it is just the hoops I have to jump through to work with BIAB in this circumstance. My arrangementss are already fully arranged BIAB backings which I have used for several years - having to make significant changes to redo the arrangemetns to work with the VLT is not what I expected nor what I want to do, but alas.... 
I think you should try a reboot and then a Return to Factory Settings and then see if your F5 commands are recognized. One step at a time...
--Mac
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I think you should try a reboot and then a Return to Factory Settings and then see if your F5 commands are recognized. One step at a time...
--Mac
Will do Mac, good suggestion, ...but I find that the arrangements I make using F5 - who plays what when,- do not always work well with other features. My guess is F5 was a later generation addition to the program and is not fully integrated with all other features. But what do I know?
I'll let you know one way or the other.
F5 seems to be working okay here, if that's any help.
--Mac
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F5 seems to be working okay here, if that's any help.
--Mac
1) Load the BIAB file into RB and all the arrangements made using F5 will be lost.
2) Use the UnFold to 1 single chorus feature and all the arrangements made using F5 will be lost.
3) Output midi to a specific channel using OutputChords feature and it will only work on the first chorus, unless you Unfold to 1 single chorus, at which point refer to #2.
Your milage may vary... 
Am I starting to sound like Eddie... 
(no offense my friend, just you and I do speak up when we are having issues.)
Didn't catch it that RB was involved.
Since RB is going to lay things out Sequencer fashion, things will indeed be different when transferring a song to RB. A lot of those commands are likely tied up in the auto-arrangement code that is part of BB, I think.
--Mac
Dan sent me a file and indeed in 2011.5 it's the same as he says however the F5 settings do come over but the solo changes do not. I suspect that the solos were not actually done with F5 but through the soloist or the RT medley maker.The song he sent had 5 choruses. I don't know how to get different solos in different choruses.
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Dan sent me a file and indeed in 2011.5 it's the same as he says however the F5 settings do come over but the solo changes do not. I suspect that the solos were not actually done with F5 but through the soloist or the RT medley maker.The song he sent had 5 choruses. I don't know how to get different solos in different choruses.
John, solo changes were indeed done simply with F5 which in BIAB world will put a Solo-RT track into any chorus. That is how I "arrange" my BIAB backings. But these have never gone over properly into RB.
So what F5 setting come over if not the solo-RT tracks. How about just tuning on and off different rhythm tracks. I also use F5 for these and they also don't go over into RB.
Yea I figured it out while waiting for a reply.So it looks like either redo all you songs.Right! or figure something out. The issue here really boilds down to the fact that you want to use a DXi/VSTi and drive the VLT with the BIAB Send chords feature.
Let me install a HW midi device and see if I can make this work.
Hold on, I may have stumbled upon somthing. At this moment everyting APPEARS to be working, with minimum adjustments!!!
I need to be able to "see" what is being sent on Midi Channel 9 to my VLT. Right now I only have the blinking light on the VLT to show me that midi is being received. My problem MAY be that I mute the midi melody channel after Chorus one - but the Melody is Channel 4?? and the OutputChords is sending on Channel 9, So why does the light stop blinking when i mute the melody and then beginning blinking when I unmute it.
It there some way in BIAB that I can actually "see" what is being sent on these individual midi channels.
I am trying to use Piano Roll to view the channels but am very very confussed on what is actually be used for each instrumetn... It seems I need to understand this to really get to the bottom of my problems.
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Yea I figured it out while waiting for a reply.So it looks like either redo all you songs.Right! or figure something out. The issue here really boilds down to the fact that you want to use a DXi/VSTi and drive the VLT with the BIAB Send chords feature.
Let me install a HW midi device and see if I can make this work.
I gave up on using the Dxi/VSti. Since only the melody track is midi, all others are RTs, therefore for selected songs which I will sing I have gone to rendering this single track as a wav which BIAB allows me one wav file with each tune. With this I now have all audio tracks. This allows me to direct midi to the VLT for these songs. Problem solved.
I just need to really understand all this midi channel stuff .... a work in progrss.
OK my findings and this IS messed up. I hooked up my Edirol.I set the "chord output" channel to #1 as that's not being used by any other parts.I loaded an all midi song and hit play. I can hear the chords from channel #1 as they're low in pitch. The weird thing is that if you mute the soloist part it also mutes the "output Chord" part.This should not happen but it does. Now the really bad part. If you have a RT on the soloist part the "chord output" is disabled and doesn't send chords. In Dan's case, or anyone for that matter, just deciding to use all RTs and sending the chords to the VLT WILL NOT WORK if there is a RT on the soloist.I couldn't find a way out of this. Dan your only choice in the matter is to redo all your songs in RB or run your guitar through the VLT.
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1) Load the BIAB file into RB and all the arrangements made using F5 will be lost.
2) Use the UnFold to 1 single chorus feature and all the arrangements made using F5 will be lost.
3) Output midi to a specific channel using OutputChords feature and it will only work on the first chorus, unless you Unfold to 1 single chorus, at which point refer to #2.
Well for those following along, #3 above has been busted. I now have OutputChords feature staying on for all choruses. It appears to be a midi channel thing.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
BTW what you are seeing IS the midi notes from the melody track and not the "chords output". I've confirmed that hear as I'm using a sound module to test and can hear what's going on.
John, I appreciate your support and efforts to help me on this, but, until RB gets a dramatic revision:
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Dan your only choice in the matter is to redo all your songs in RB or run your guitar through the VLT.
NEVER.
I really LOVE BIAB, and my show, as modest as it is, is fully based on BIAB. I will find a way to work this out in BIAB. And when I do, beers will be one me
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The weird thing is that if you mute the soloist part it also mutes the "output Chord" part.This should not happen but it does.
This is weird indeed, what I am seeing is that if I mute the melody part the "output chords" also mutes. I figure Melody is on Channel 4 and I assigned "outputchords" to channel 9. But a mute of melody stops the lights from blinking on my VLT. By the way, when I mute the soloist, the light still blinks on the VLT??
Had to go to town. That's weird for you the melody for me the soloist? I'll set melody to 4 & chords to 9 like you and see what happens. Dan with your song you sent me there no chord data being sent. If I erase the soloist part then I get chords. The lights are blinking on your VLT because it's seeing the melody track.That's midi data as well but not chords.
It isn't going to work as is.
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The lights are blinking on your VLT because it's seeing the melody track.That's midi data as well but not chords.
Oh shi###t, thats bad....
I will attempt to confirm at my end. I have an Old Kawai GMega External GM Synth which I am bringing out of the closet now to see if I can hear ezactly what Midi is going where. If I understand you, then the "outputchords" feature in BIAB is not working from an independent channel as it claims.
It's a separate midi channel BUT It's somehow tied to the Soloist track even though it's on a different midi channel.Open a song that doesn't have any RTs on the Soloist track and you'll hear the output chords. Now mute the soloist track and they'll turn off. This was fine in the midi days but now for some reason if you have any RTs, as you do, on the soloist track it also disables midi output from the "output Chords" feature. This is a real killer.Because of this there is no work around except not using the Soloist track for any RTs and to me that's not an option at all.
Now there might be a work around but I don't have what I need to test this.
The melody track is capable of having 16 different midi parts on it all assigned to 16 different midi channels.I'm guess that you only use the midi part on the melody channel so that you have the notation to read. If you could get a keyborard or some other way generate the chords on that melody track as well set to channel 9 then that would drive the VLT.Set the volume to 1 as the VLT only needs the note data. This way you won't hear the chords. There may be a way to auto generate this part as well.
Yep. Could be done with a keyboard. Just record on the melody track and make sure overdub is selected. When you stop it asks what channel you want this part on. You'd set it to the same channel that the VLT is set to listen on.
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Open a song that doesn't have any RTs on the Soloist track and you'll hear the output chords. Now mute the soloist track and they'll turn off.
Confirmed, with my external synth! Just as you say. I can place the outputchords on any open channel, but muting soloist track, which is supposed to be on Midi Channel 8, kill all chord output.
Now let me study and ponder the rest of your messaage, and exatly what this all means.
OK I found a way. Step by step. If you want to.
1.open the song in BIAB
2.open the same song in RB
3.In RB set the filter for styles to only show midi styles.
4.Change the style in RB to a jazz style that has piano or guitar.
5. Right click on an empty track in RB & choose Generate midi track/piano or guitar.
6.Right click on that track and choose select Whole Track
7.Right click again and set the midi channel of this track to 9
8.Right click again and choose copy
9. now move over to BIAB
10.set: melody/track type/multi
11.Then go to melody/edit melody track/Import melody from clipboard
12. make sure only 9 is checked & that merge is checked.
13. click OK.You'll now see you have imported that midi piano or guitar track.
14 click on the green SEQ button in BIAB/sequencer on melody track.
You'll see your original melody on channel usually 1 and the track you imported on 9.
THIS WILL WORK. Lot of steps but not once you get the hang of it. Goes fast.
John, my head is still spinning a little so it will take me some time to fully comprehend what you have done here. This borders on a Masters Class in BIAB. Thank you very much for your efforts on my behalf. I hope others have enjoyed the ride and learned something along the way as I have.
Dan
You can just click the midi monitor in band in a box and set the filter to the channel you want to see on your harmonizer. On mine you basically get triads of notes as groups, or you can set the option for more complex output.
At least with the midi monitor you can confirm the fact that x and y were sent on the midi channel of your choice.
I usually use all RealTracks to test, and you then see the only midi as set gs or gm at the start type of thing.
Not complicated, but I must say you can uncomplicate the whole she bang by using an external midi module set on channel 1 and then use 5 for solo channel and the harmonizer. That way you can embed changes to your vocal parts in the solo channel.
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You can just click the midi monitor in band in a box and set the filter to the channel you want to see on your harmonizer. On mine you basically get triads of notes as groups, or you can set the option for more complex output.
At least with the midi monitor you can confirm the fact that x and y were sent on the midi channel of your choice.
I usually use all RealTracks to test, and you then see the only midi as set gs or gm at the start type of thing.
Not complicated, but I must say you can uncomplicate the whole she bang by using an external midi module set on channel 1 and then use 5 for solo channel and the harmonizer. That way you can embed changes to your vocal parts in the solo channel.
John,
His tunes all have Real Track solos on the soloist track and this ,for some reason, disables the ability of the "output chords" feature. That's the whole issue at this point.
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... Real Track solos on the soloist track and this ,for some reason, disables the ability of the "output chords" feature. That's the whole issue at this point.
There is going to be a test later on this material so be sure to study up...
Dan,
What I'm doing is getting a midi guitar or piano part on the melody track that will send chords to the VLT in lieu of the "output chords" feature that doesn't work when you have a RT on the Soloist track..
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Dan,
What I'm doing is getting a midi guitar or piano part on the melody track that will send chords to the VLT in lieu of the "output chords" feature that doesn't work when you have a RT on the Soloist track..
But what will happen to the song melody, which is on the melody track? Wait, I already was not using that midi melody since I had to disable Dx\Vst. So after I render the midi melody to wav I have no need for that content. So I am trying to understand how we can have multiple channels (chords and melody) on one track?? I assume the two have been merged and now chords and melody will go silently to the VLT - is that right?
Otherwise,
Looks like the outputchords feature can work - but since it needs the Soloist track i have to remove all RT's from the soloist track. As long as nothing is on the Soloist track and it is unmuted, and all other tracks are RTs (no DXi)- then things appear to be working. This may be doable for me, I don't sing every song and not every song has a RT on the soloist track and I can render melodies if I want to hear them.
I think the answer is here somewhere John, my new understandings will help me work it out yet.
The melody and Soloist tracks can have 16 parts midi all on separate channels. So once you do what I layed out you'd still have the original melody on one midi channel and that other midi part on channel 9.
Here is my understanding about the instrucions - it is my process to write things out which I am trying to comprehend.
Each of the six (6) BIAB Instrument tracks (Piano, Guitar, Bass, Strings, Melody. Soloist) can access\use (better word is share) 16 channels of data, But it is not 16x6 since only a total of 16 channels are available.
BIAB assigns a specific single channel to each of the six tracks (melody is channel 4, piano in channel 3, bass is channel 2...) this permits each channel to be assigned a specific GM patch for a specific sound.
John is suggesting I place in the melody track - multiple channels. The patch assignment is still limited to what is assigned to each of the 16 channels. So channel 2 on the Melody track (which contains the melody notes) is asigned a piano patch/sound, then if I also place the chords on the melody track, but on a different channel they will sound like what ever sound is assigned to that channel. For example, if the chords where placed on the melody track on channel 2, they would sound like a bass. Since channel 9 is not a preassigned BIAB channel I can use it and assign any patch I want, but since I am using the chords only to drive the VLT perhaps i don't even need to assing it a patch?
While each of the standard BIAB tracks are single channel (at least as I have ever understood), it appears that RB will allow me to create a multichannel track, combining melody and chords on two channels of a single track.
Does that sound right so far?? I need to move forward but want to be sure this is correct up to this point.
By the way , I am trying to use the Piano roll window in BIAB to understand all this.
By the way if you have read along through this and the previous thread, and especially you John. I am heading out to the Gilmer In;, corner of Gilmer Rd and Old McHenry Rd in Mundeline Il. Stop in over the next couple hours, mention this thread and drinks are on me.
You are basicly correct except all the tracks in BIAB can be set to use any one of 16 channels. They can be change BTW in prefs/midi channels.Each track can only use one channel EXCEPT the Melody track & Soloist. They CAN use all 16 channels at once.If you follow my process you will end up with 2 midi tracks on the Melody track:
1. your original melody line that will be re-channeled to channel 1. Which is fine & can be changed.
2. The chords that you created in RB and imported over BIAB on channel 9
Now you'll be sending chords via BIAB and won't need to use RB live.
BTW I've done a similar process with actually more steps in order to use my harmonizer. I did it to 200 songs as I sing on all. In fact I had to do it twice as the first time I didn't care for the results. I had used a guitar RT. Kept getting weird chords. I changed to using a self made, with Pat Marr's template, a piano style playing in root position that I then convert to audio to drive my harmonizer.
John, you've been wonderful. thanks for all you time in helping me out.
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John, you've been wonderful. thanks for all you time in helping me out.
You are more then welcome. My goal is to see you be able to use your harmonizer with BIAB. I hope you haven't given up.
Check this;
In the NOTATION view, hit the Opts button, then take a look at the upper left dropdown setting for the guitar.
If that is set to MULTICHANNEL for printing of TAB, etc, then it may just be the reason the Melody track is muting more than one MIDI channel.
--Mac
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Check this;
In the NOTATION view, hit the Opts button, then take a look at the upper left dropdown setting for the guitar.
If that is set to MULTICHANNEL for printing of TAB, etc, then it may just be the reason the Melody track is muting more than one MIDI channel.
--Mac
Nothing set to multichannel. See Follow up Question on OutputChrods feature.
FWIW
Dan,
I've been doing some experimenting for my own purpose.I have the Helicon GXT that listens to guitar chords. I don't play guitar so I feed it a seperate track of piano that comes out of the internal sound card. The rest of the band comes out of my KX card. Looking for a means to make a real small rig I set everything to come out of the internal card and eliminated the KX card.Using the AUX send on my board I sent a mix of the whole band to the GXT to see if it could track harmonies with the whole band feeding it.
IT WORKED PERFECTLY.
Dan send a mix to your VLT as if it were a guitar. It'll work fine.No fixing songs or anything.
But John, that sounds just too simple. Where the stress and agony that we need in order to pay our dues to play the blues.
The VLT is very versitile. I was aware I could send Midi, or play live or send an audio signal (as you have suggested). I guess I just thought that the machine would perform better if feed only the appropirate 1,3, 5,7 . Let me give it a try and i'll let you know how it works for me.
But, I still want things fixed in OutputChords. Workarounds are one thing, but I can not longer convince my wife we don't have to fix the front day entry way because we can always use the back door.
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I sent a mix of the whole band to the GXT to see if it could track harmonies with the whole band feeding it. IT WORKED PERFECTLY.
Dan send a mix to your VLT as if it were a guitar. It'll work fine.No fixing songs or anything.
Confirmed, very nice. And on the 7th day he rested.
Final question and then we put this thread to rest.
Can I get a show of hands as to how many folks understood what John and I were doing here? Or even had a clue? I have a reason for asking I'll let you know based on responses. Thanks for weighing in on this final quesion.
Vote 1 - 5
5 Understood everything, been there done that.
4 Generally followed the thread - yea MIDI channels are confusing
3 Partially followed what was going on - but I'm a guitarist so it don't matter
2 very confusing, not sure what was going on.
1 no frickin clue - whats a VLT?
5
4 and 1/2.
Have a Voice Live Touch, understand MIDI, but have not tried what you are trying.
3
I'm a guitarist, and it don't matter
I thought I was following OK, but it took a turn that baffled me, and since by that time you were already reporting success I stopped following the thread and deleted my response
4
saved the thread so when i get my vlt.....
Hey Pat, the elaboration with option #3 is a joke, I think.
"It do matter."
One of the earlier demos of the Voice Live Touch that I saw was a trumpet player improvising over changes played by a guitar. The guitarist had a MIDI output so his chords became the basis for the VLT's harmony for the trumpeter who was using the VLT. Quite impressive. But, you knew that...
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Hey Pat, the elaboration with option #3 is a joke, I think.
I took it as being tongue in cheek, and responded in kind.
(in my case responding in kind means KINDa lame)
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I took it as being tongue in cheek
Exactly as intended...