PG Music Home
Earlier this week I ordered the new release of Biab 2012 on Hard Drive.

I paid the extra $$ for the hard drive installation for the convenience of having the complete program pre-assembled, installed, ready to play and avoid the hassle of downloads.

This morning I receive an email from PG Music Sales:



"Dear Band-in-a-Box Customer,

Thank you for your recent order of Band-in-a-Box 2012 for Windows!

Following is the link to download RealTracks Set 146: Jazz Fusion Soloing that was part of your UltraPlusPAK or EverythingPAK purchase....

We will be adding some additional styles to this set shortly! We will send these to you as soon as they are finalized."



Sooo...Pg Music's proclaimation, 'Band in a Box 2012 is here!" doesn't mean it's complete. Apparently it means they're just ready to take consumer's money now and send the rest of the parts later, self-assembly required.

Unbelievable! The point of paying extra for the hard drive version is the convenience of receiving a completed product. Helloooo?

Had PG Music disclosed something to the effect of, "OK. You can get 2012 now, but we haven't quite finished everything and we'll send the rest later", some users anxious to get their hands on the update would probably have pulled the trigger, but I'd have waited for completion.

PG's less-than-honest release didn't offer any such disclosure.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a growing trend. Previous releases have had similar buy-it-now-we'll-send-the-rest-later post-purchase gotcha's.

My order hasn't yet arrived. And since no tracking was provided there's no clue when it will arrive. When it does, it will be returned to PG Music for refund or completion of the assembly.
I'm curious, what is your position on updates and patches?
Quote:

Sooo...Pg Music's proclaimation, 'Band in a Box 2012 is here!" doesn't mean it's complete. Apparently it means they're just ready to take consumer's money now and send the rest of the parts later, self-assembly required.

Unbelievable! The point of paying extra for the hard drive version is the convenience of receiving a completed product. Helloooo?

My order hasn't yet arrived. And since no tracking was provided there's no clue when it will arrive. When it does, it will be returned to PG Music for refund or completion of the assembly.




Sooo, one Real Track could not be made ready for the big Christmas release so you expect PG to hold up the entire thing and miss Christmas for that? There's tons of new stuff in this release and this forum has a bunch of posts including the stickys from Peter explaining that one RT will be available soon. Yeah, you do have a point it could have been mentioned as part of their main advertising but everybody knows that stuff has to be written and proofed weeks ahead of time so occasionally something gets missed. You don't have to download this, I think they can send you a disc if you have no internet access but I'm not sure about that.

PG's moneyback guarantee is there and they always honor it so return it if you want but man, that seems a bit over the top, doncha think?

Bob
Send it back. Or email them. Tell them that you want a completed product.

I got my hard drive 2 days ago, and I have downloaded the RT in question, it took, under 2 minutes to download and install.

Just wait until January to get your hard drive. That should let things settle down a bit.
Hi Matt. Patches and updates are assessed for their fixes and benefits. Often, I'll wait weeks or months for PG's subsequent release of fixes to the initial fixes before incorporating them into the back-up installation. If trials appear to work correctly, then into the main install. It's reassuring and convenient to have a complete working program on hand for backup in the event of a disaster without having to cobble together bits and pieces to accomplish a reinstall. That's why I buy the hard drive vs download.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 04:20 PM
Quote:

Earlier this week I ordered the new release of Biab 2012 on Hard Drive.

I paid the extra $$ for the hard drive installation for the convenience of having the complete program pre-assembled, installed, ready to play and avoid the hassle of downloads.

This morning I receive an email from PG Music Sales:



"Dear Band-in-a-Box Customer,

Thank you for your recent order of Band-in-a-Box 2012 for Windows!

Following is the link to download RealTracks Set 146: Jazz Fusion Soloing that was part of your UltraPlusPAK or EverythingPAK purchase....

We will be adding some additional styles to this set shortly! We will send these to you as soon as they are finalized."



Sooo...Pg Music's proclaimation, 'Band in a Box 2012 is here!" doesn't mean it's complete. Apparently it means they're just ready to take consumer's money now and send the rest of the parts later, self-assembly required.

Unbelievable! The point of paying extra for the hard drive version is the convenience of receiving a completed product. Helloooo?

Had PG Music disclosed something to the effect of, "OK. You can get 2012 now, but we haven't quite finished everything and we'll send the rest later", some users anxious to get their hands on the update would probably have pulled the trigger, but I'd have waited for completion.

PG's less-than-honest release didn't offer any such disclosure.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a growing trend. Previous releases have had similar buy-it-now-we'll-send-the-rest-later post-purchase gotcha's.

My order hasn't yet arrived. And since no tracking was provided there's no clue when it will arrive. When it does, it will be returned to PG Music for refund or completion of the assembly.




Mine arrived within 3 days (played my first gig with it last night with another scheduled today) so "theoretically" you can get it and return it for your refund before Christmas.

Merry Christmas,
Posted By: DrDan Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 04:21 PM
Lawrence, you do have a bit of a point, but don't get too upset. It is easy to update the portable HD with any new additions, updates, or patches so you have a full single source backup.
Seems like they could include the Android and I phone apps on the disk too. To gain that functionality, you have buy those apps separately. It's like $0.99 each so not a big deal, but it's a little annoying.
Well, at least on the Apple side, you can't distribute an app other than through the Apple store. During beta testing one or two times ago when the BIAB app was introduced, we had to register our phone info with PG Music individually. This was a pain for all concerned and would not work on a production scale.
I mean Really!!
Quote:



Sooo, one Real Track could not be made ready for the big Christmas release so you expect PG to hold up the entire thing and miss Christmas for that? There's tons of new stuff in this release and this forum has a bunch of posts including the stickys from Peter explaining that one RT will be available soon. Yeah, you do have a point it could have been mentioned as part of their main advertising but everybody knows that stuff has to be written and proofed weeks ahead of time so occasionally something gets missed. You don't have to download this, I think they can send you a disc if you have no internet access but I'm not sure about that.

PG's moneyback guarantee is there and they always honor it so return it if you want but man, that seems a bit over the top, doncha think?

Bob




Hi Bob. Yeah, if it was my company I'd have made a point of identifying this as something like a "just in time for x-mas release with more to follow". But it's Prof. Gannon's company and, of course, he can run it any way he sees fit.

However, it's my money (and time) and I choose how to spend it (or not).

Not to split hairs, Bob, but it's identified by PG as a whole set of RealTracks and accompanying styles. Not insubstantial.

Mostly, PG does a good job supporting their product. I'm just expressing my dissapointment with this release and bringing it the attention of others who may have similar expectations of receiving a completed product.
Quote:

Hi Matt. Patches and updates are assessed for their fixes and benefits. Often, I'll wait weeks or months for PG's subsequent release of fixes to the initial fixes before incorporating them into the back-up installation. If trials appear to work correctly, then into the main install. It's reassuring and convenient to have a complete working program on hand for backup in the event of a disaster without having to cobble together bits and pieces to accomplish a reinstall. That's why I buy the hard drive vs download.



Thanks, I see your point: you are primarily concerned with keeping a pure backup, and that takes priority for you over applying patches and updates right away, at least to the backup copy. I don't share your concern because the program has major updates every six months and you can always roll back to prior installs, but do I understand it. I always back up the patch files so I could reconstruct if needed, and you could put those on the hard drive rather than applying them to the hard drive.
Quote:

Lawrence, you do have a bit of a point, but don't get too upset. It is easy to update the portable HD with any new additions, updates, or patches so you have a full single source backup.




Jazzmandan, it's been my experience that patches and build updates installed on the external drive don't transfer to a new installation or re-installation. I have only attempted to do so a few times and it was necessary to download them again. (Or save the patch/update installer files somewhere for separate, subsequent operations.) No, not too upset. There's just plenty to do with installing and learning the new release without having to finish building it myself. Frustrating. I'd have waited had it been disclosed.
Posted By: Kemmrich Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 05:05 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I would rather have 95-99% of the product now, rather than wait 2 weeks to xx months to get 100%. PGM's customer base has been trained to expect product delivery in the first or so of December. That delivery date is quite important to meet customer expectations.

I work in quality and write quality control software -- the thing to always remember that until you ship product you have zero quality. I can accept updates and patches on BIAB software, because I know that the functionality I need to get the tasks done that I have to get done are there and working. Now if a major portion of the software was NOT working, then I am sure PG Music would have to miss their expected shipping date and take their lumps. In the end quality is relative to customers' expectations.

Kevin
If the beta testers took any longer they would have had to double their take home pay. And that would cost the end user.
That certainly would not have been a deal killer for me (I manually downloaded and installed all the files so as not to wait for the HD to arrive (which it did, and VERY quickly.) Installing a patch or a new RT is not that big a deal, and you should not need to do it more than once (or a few times if you rebuild your machine from scratch every so often.)
Posted By: Cerio Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 05:45 PM
Quote:


Following is the link to download RealTracks Set 146: Jazz Fusion Soloing that was part of your UltraPlusPAK or EverythingPAK purchase....




So, has been that RT already released?
Quote:

I can't speak for everyone, but I would rather have 95-99% of the product now, rather than wait 2 weeks to xx months to get 100%.

Kevin




Hi Kevin. I know. In the original post I acknowledged some would probably want to get the new release asap regardless. I would have preferred disclosure that it wasn't quite finished and therfore the choice to wait a little bit for completion.

Maybe I'm expecting too much? For example, when I take my vehicle in for a tune-up I expect it to be completed on delivery. I'd rather wait than have the shop mail the oil filter later with note to the effect of "..ooops! We didn't have it at the time!" and have to install it myself.
Posted By: Mac Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 06:04 PM
Well, I think the scenario originally was to have the one missing Realtracks set available for the release date, but something happened to preclude that.

A sentence to the effect that it would not be included yet would likely have been the good thing to do, but perhaps such was a simple ooversight up there as this time of year at pgmusic is, shall we say, rather busy for all parties involved.

Patches, updates, keeping track of them and installing them is or should be part and parcel of using *any* software by now, and avoiding that is something that any user does at their own peril, I should think.


--Mac
Quote:


Thanks, I see your point: you are primarily concerned with keeping a pure backup, and that takes priority for you over applying patches and updates right away, at least to the backup copy. I don't share your concern because the program has major updates every six months and you can always roll back to prior installs, but do I understand it. I always back up the patch files so I could reconstruct if needed, and you could put those on the hard drive rather than applying them to the hard drive.




Matt, I usually pass on the mid-year upgrades and have sometimes skipped a year. I'll get an upgrade if it's feature enhancements are compelling for my applications and workflow. Pretty much the same philosophy for patches and updates. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Posted By: Mac Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 06:18 PM
Quote:


Thanks, Pretty much the same philosophy for patches and updates. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."




Experience has shown me that in the case of Band in a Box software, keeping track of the Updates and downloading and installing them is beneficial to the end-user almost every time.

There have historically been many fixes that, while you may not think things are broken, they are.

Why set yourself up for what would be a relatively easy cure - and often can be avoided altogether - by ignoring the updates and patches?

Experience in answering the problems of forum users over the past ten or more years has shown me that there are a significant number of posts where the user has encountered a problem with the program that has already been addressed by these Updates, but the user has failed to keep track of, download and install the update.

On top of that, one does not need to install the first update, then the next, then the next and so-on if they haven't updated the program in some time, pgmusic has been great at making sure that the LATEST Update file posted has all the fixes from previous updates in it as well.

Yes, if you ever go to do a reinstall of BB from the drive, say onto a new machine, you should do the install, then ascertain that bb is basicall working, and then install the latest downloaded update right overtop. Also should check for any possibly missing Realtracks/Realdrums updates at that time and do likewise.

The amount of time it takes to do so is not as bad as the frustration and lost time that not having a certain feature fixed and working can impart to a project. When the creative juices are flowing, it is almost criminal to have to interrupt that in order to troubleshoot a problem that, if the updates had been done, would not even be a problem. YMMV, but since the analogy has already been given, the responsible automobile owner shouldn't ignore oil changes and tuneup intervals with the expectation of having that automobile function as intended, especially when the automaker includes a schedule for maintenance.

Software has a maintenance as well, IMO and in this case, those Updates are just part and parcel of maintaining the software in good working order, in an effort to maximize benefit.


--Mac
Lawrence,

There are about 80,000 files in the Band-in-a-Box UltraPak. It is inevitable that a few will need patching, or be missing. In this case, there are 2 RealTracks that are about a week late, and so will be posted online in a free patch update.

As you mentioned, you haven't even received the hard drive version yet, so it is possible that the online patch will appear **before** you get the physical copy. In this case, wait until the hard drive arrives, and then apply the patch.

The patch update can be applied directly to the hard drive (e.g. if your hard drive is f:\, just point to the f:\bb directory on the hard drive), which makes your hard drive fully up to date. Note that the hard drive is then identical to what it should be, and can be used as a backup etc. Future patches should also be applied like that, to keep your backup copy up to date.

As you know, Windows, Apple and most other software companies update their software with online (free) patches. How often do you boot iTunes, to be told that "important patch must be applied etc."

We believe that most people prefer to get 99.9% of a big product like this, and just apply a patch when available to top it up to 100%. For example, if we discover that one of the demos on MIDI "techno" styles set 79 has the wrong key signature, would you prefer that we hold your order until that is fixed, or ship as-is, and put up a patch?
Maintaining a product with 80,000 files is an ongoing process, so regular patches throughout the year are to be expected.
Hi Mac. Agreed. You offer sage advice. There are, however, features I do not use, for example, the iphone app. It makes no sense to me to blindly rush to download every update to features, like the iphone, which I never use. Generally biab works pretty well. If I have an issue, something I use isn't quite right, I'll check for patches or the forums. I also check support periodically for current releases and keep a journal of those I've added and those I haven't. On a side note - not to change the topic to wish lists - it would be a usefull benefit to be able to select or deselect some peripheral features, like the iphone I never use, from program installation - the whole thing is pretty large.
Posted By: rharv Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 06:47 PM
2012 has a checkbox during installaetion for iPhone server app. Uncheck it and never worry about it.
Your wish is already answered!
Quote:

Lawrence,

There are about 80,000 files in the Band-in-a-Box UltraPak. It is inevitable that a few will need patching, or be missing. In this case, there are 2 RealTracks that are about a week late, and so will be posted online in a free patch update.

As you mentioned, you haven't even received the hard drive version yet, so it is possible that the online patch will appear **before** you get the physical copy. In this case, wait until the hard drive arrives, and then apply the patch.

The patch update can be applied directly to the hard drive (e.g. if your hard drive is f:\, just point to the f:\bb directory on the hard drive), which makes your hard drive fully up to date. Note that the hard drive is then identical to what it should be, and can be used as a backup etc. Future patches should also be applied like that, to keep your backup copy up to date.

As you know, Windows, Apple and most other software companies update their software with online (free) patches. How often do you boot iTunes, to be told that "important patch must be applied etc."

We believe that most people prefer to get 99.9% of a big product like this, and just apply a patch when available to top it up to 100%. For example, if we discover that one of the demos on MIDI "techno" styles set 79 has the wrong key signature, would you prefer that we hold your order until that is fixed, or ship as-is, and put up a patch?
Maintaining a product with 80,000 files is an ongoing process, so regular patches throughout the year are to be expected.




Hello Prof. Gannon. Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do understand that such a large program will need patches. And thanks to PG Music for the product support.

In a previous post, I wrote that it has been my prior experience on a couple of re-installs that program updates applied to the external drive do not convey to a re-install. Installers for the subsequent updates had to also be run again (or downloaded and re-installed again separately). Please correct me if I am mistaken. Am I understanding your post correctly to mean that if I apply patches and build updates to the external hard drive as a back-up that, if a re-install is necessary, the main program installer can be run and all of those added patches and build updates will transfer to the new re-install? If so that would simplify and expedite re-installation. Thanks again!
Quote:

2012 has a checkbox during installaetion for iPhone server app. Uncheck it and never worry about it.
Your wish is already answered!




Fabulous! I have that to look forward to. If only all my wishes were granted so quickly.... Thanks!
>> Hello Prof. Gannon
I appreciate the salutation, but it is unearned, as I've never been a professor.

>>> In a previous post, I wrote that it has been my prior experience on a couple of re-installs that program updates applied to the external drive do not convey to a re-install. Installers for the subsequent updates had to also be run again (or downloaded and re-installed again separately). Please correct me if I am mistaken.

In the case of the hard drive version, for a *** full install** the f:\bb folder just gets copied during an install, so an update to the hard drive changes those files, and hence changes the install. So need to repatch if you patched that.

If you are doing a **minimal install** from the hard drive, then it doesn't copy the RealTracks folder, and installs a compressed image, and so you would need to reapply a patch to the c:\bb folder in that case.
Egad. I see that you don't have a wikipedia entry, Peter. How can you stand for this?



John
Posted By: rharv Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 07:36 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_in_a_box

Unless you meant Peter having a personal entry ..
Quote:

>> Hello Prof. Gannon
I appreciate the salutation, but it is unearned, as I've never been a professor.




Guess you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Don't recall offhand exactly where I read you were a Prof. but you have have that credit somewhere on the web...


Quote:



In the case of the hard drive version, for a *** full install** the f:\bb folder just gets copied during an install, so an update to the hard drive changes those files, and hence changes the install. So need to repatch if you patched that.

If you are doing a **minimal install** from the hard drive, then it doesn't copy the RealTracks folder, and installs a compressed image, and so you would need to reapply a patch to the c:\bb folder in that case.




Aha!! That explains it! I use the custom install option to install the bb and RT folders to separate drives. Thank you for that revelation, Peter! Oh well, so using the custom install option I'll still have to apply subsequent update patches.

In regards to the RealTrack in question, once it is added to the external hard drive, so it doesn't convey on a custom installation to separate drives and needs to be added to the RT folder subsequently? Do I understand correctly? No biggie, if I just need remember to keep a copy of the RT installer file as I have before. Thanks again!
>> There are, however, features I do not use, for example, the iphone app

Remember, there are 2 iPhone apps (and same 2 for Android).

- one is BBRemote, which is a wireless remote control for Band-in-a-Box.
- the other is Band-in-a-Box for iPhone, which is a player program to play BB files on your iPhone.

If you have an iPhone, the BBRemote enhances use of the desktop Band-in-a-Box, by functioning as a wireless remote.

The "Band-in-a-Box for iPhone" is useful when you are away from the desktop version of Band-in-a-Box, so you can play tunes that you transferred over previously.

Of course you need to have an iPhone, iPad, or Android device to use these apps at all.
>>> In regards to the RealTrack in question, once it is added to the external hard drive, so it doesn't convey on a custom installation to separate drives and needs to be added to the RT folder subsequently? Do I understand correctly? No biggie, if I just need remember to keep a copy of the RT installer file as I have before. Thanks again!

Yes, if you have 2 Realtracks folders:
c:\bb\RealTracks <----- your main drive, where you have BB copied to
and
f:\bb\RealTracks <----- your PG Music hard drive

Then, when you get a patch, you should apply it twice.
The first time, you point to c:\bb and c:\bb\RealTracks
The second time, you point to f:\bb and f:\bb\RealTracks

In other words, you would do the same thing as if you had BB on two different computers; you'd update them both.
Posted By: Kemmrich Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 09:11 PM
Quote:

Lawrence.1955: Maybe I'm expecting too much? For example, when I take my vehicle in for a tune-up I expect it to be completed on delivery. I'd rather wait than have the shop mail the oil filter later with note to the effect of "..ooops! We didn't have it at the time!" and have to install it myself.




That is not anywhere near a reasonable analogy -- it just tells me that you've made your mind up and no amount of discussion will change your mind. Good luck with the software.
Posted By: MitchC Re: Biab 2012 Hard Drive Release Incomplete - 12/10/11 09:30 PM
Just return the dang thing if you're that upset. My word. Go buy something else you are satisfied with.
Quote:

Just return the dang thing if you're that upset. My word. Go buy something else you are satisfied with.




No, I'm not upset; Just don't care for the extra hassle and putting in my 2 cents about it.... if that's ok with you.

Looking at all the problems people are posting about with adding on the missing RealTracks set 146 just makes the point. I'd preferred to have had the knowledge and informed choice to wait for the completed package of Biab 2012.

More of the tardy RealTrack and accompanying styles promised are yet to come. It's likely only going to get worse trying to add them to what - in my opinion - should have been a complete package to begin with.

Yeah, yeah, I expect some updates with any software. But when I'm told the release contains features A through Z, but after I pay I'm told 'well, it really doesn't have all that, yet. We'll send the rest when we're ready' ... I kinda have a problem with that kind of willfull absence of disclosure. Get it?

I'm trying to be kind here. You know what they call people that don't tell the truth.

I'm not in that big of a hurry to have the latest, greatest edition. Simply put, my preference is to have had it delivered complete without the hassle of chasing down the missing parts piecemeal and troubleshooting their various installations. That's what I was paying PG Music to do when I bought the 2012 release (so I thought). I have much better things to do with my time.

Well, maybe I should just cut my losses, use 2011 which I have already paid for and just return the Biab 2012 hard drive for a refund. Ok, ya talked me into it. Thanks!
© PG Music Forums