how to sync Cubase, Band in a box?

Robh,

My DAW is a "stand-alone" DAW workstation, its the Roland VS2480 (I have 3 of them). I don't do any transfers from one software to another within the computer.

Back when BIAB was MIDI only, I use to export as MIDI file into Sonar. In Sonar, I would "groove quantize" all the tracks then play the tracks through a sound module and record its output digitally into the Roland DAW. Still, it was 2 tracks at a time (L & R of stereo digital out).

99.9% of BIAB use today are Real Tracks, but the amount of time required to transfer digital tracks into my Roland DAW is still about the same. With all MIDI I don't have to sync my tracks in the DAW but I still have to "groove quantize" my tracks. With Real Tracks, I don't have to "groove quantize" but I still have to visually sync my tracks.

Sync capability will eliminate the need to visually sync my tracks. Biggest advantage for me is to be able listen to additional instruments beyond the 5 part. I just have to change an instrument, solo it, them press "play" on the DAW and BIAB will play the new instrument to audition it. This will be very helpful when I am trying to comp a solo part . . . IF BIAB was sync capable.

Once BIAB becomes sync capable . . . the next step is for BIAB to become a VST "plug-in" for other Windows based DAW. Wouldn't that be nice ??

Quote:

Once BIAB becomes sync capable . . . the next step is for BIAB to become a VST "plug-in" for other Windows based DAW. Wouldn't that be nice ??

+1. I have become used to export files from BIAB to my DAW, wich is great, but having the possibility of sync both programs (or using BIAB as a plugin within my DAW) would allow to easily hear BIAB tracks "in context", and would be still better.

Hi Guys,
I must hav e the wrong idea about what the term Sync means?

I have my BIAB midied to my arranger keyboard.
My Keyboard is set to external midi. When I press play in BIAB, my keyboard starts playing a style & BIAB sends out the chord changes for my keyboard ie I can literally have BIAB play Real Drums, whilst my keyboard plays the bass, guitar piano, whatever.

Next I tried miding BIAB with my old XG Works sequencer.
I set the sequencer to external midi, pressed play in BIAB. Again BIAB played Real Track Drums whist the sequencer played the midifile I had loaded in ( minus drums).
I always thought that that was what syncing was, but obviously there's more to it.

Blake and Beachboy explained it.
When you sync to an external unit it's easy; use a MIDI cable.
But how do you connect a MIDI cable inside the computer from one program to another??
Use LoopBe or similar. It's what it is designed for.

Hi rharv,
sorry, maybe I didn't put my question well.

I actually have my XG works pc sequencer & biab midied via a virtual midi cable, and they stay in sync when I press play in Band in a Box. I was sort of under the impression that if something ( keyboard or sequencer ) sent out midi clock, and the other unit was able to receive midi clock, that was syncing??

Maybe I better reread the whole thread, as somewhere along the line, I've gotten lost. haahaa

Quote:

Blake and Beachboy explained it.
When you sync to an external unit it's easy; use a MIDI cable.
But how do you connect a MIDI cable inside the computer from one program to another??
Use LoopBe or similar. It's what it is designed for.

There is some info here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/techfaq27.htm#43

Band-in-a-Box will send some sync info, if you go to Opt. | Preferences | MIDI Options, and check "Output Sync/Start info". It will send MIDI clock, and song start/stop messages. It doesn't send MIDI Time Code, and you can't use it as a slave (i.e. it won't respond to sync info from another MIDI device). RealBand on the other hand has more advanced MIDI sync capabilities.

Thank you for the link Andrew.

Andrew,

Thank you for the informative link.

I admit, I'm one of the user that never delved into "Real Band". Thats because after the sequence is generated, I use an external DAW for further production. I know very little about features and capabilities of Real Band. I know that I can take a generated sequence using Real Track into Real Band, but I've never tried it.

I still need to expand my knowledge on Real Band "how to" but, now that I know Real Band can send Midi Time Code, I have a renewed incentive to learn Real Band. Since it has many more tracks than BIAB, AND MTC capable, I'm thinking that adding more instruments might be easier in Real Band. Right ??

For example, If I want to create an 8 piece band plus solos, it can be done in Real band . . . even edit each track. Once all the instruments are in one Real Band file, using the MTC capability, I can digitally record into my DAW using MTC sync . . . two tracks at a time. Hmmm . . . That means I just might have to spend $199 to replace my burnt out MOTU card so I can transfer 16 tracks in one playback.

I'm going to have to spend some time watching Real Band video tutorials.
Are all the latest Real Band video tutorials available on-line ??
I ordered the Plus-Pak 2012 on HD this time WITHOUT the latest video tutorials, to save $20 on the price.

Looks like I've got some experimenting to do . . . as well as learning the new features in 2012.

Ed

The only downside to doing what you want is if you create a lot of Real Tracks. The RT generation in Real Band is way slower than it is in Biab. If you're only doing one or just short snippents like 8 bars or something like that, then RB is great. Otherwise it may be faster to create the RT's in Biab first, then D & D them into RB.

Bob

I own Cubase, and can't think of a reason to sync the two. My workflow is as follows:
1. Create a test song in BIAB for the purpose of reviewing styles.
2. Once I've picked one or more styles, I develop a rough arrangement (chords).
3. I save the song in BIAB and open it in RealBand.
4. I carefully check the tempo and arrangement and make changes as needed.
5. I add tracks using various styles as needed to augment what I started with. This includes different rhythm parts, soloists, etc.
6. Once I get things more or less the way I want them I export all the audio (and MIDI if applicable) to WAV files and import them into Cubase.
7. From that point on, Cubase is the master. Before I do too much more work, I make sure that the tempo on Cubase matches the Realband project.

With this technique, I can add vocals and other tracks, but can go back to Realband and generate new Realtracks or drum tracks, tweaking shots and breaks and such as needed. All the tracks match up when I re-import them into Cubase.

I've produced my last two records (for other clients) this way, and it is a really nice workflow. BIAB/Realband make it really fast to rough things out, check tempos, keys, block arrangements, and give the talent something to sing to.

I have a few things I wish it would do - forget about getting the excellent musicians in Realband/BIAB to play a lick with you. If you are lucky you can get the drummer to accent something the way you do. And don't get me started on endings.

On the other hand, the Realtracks are pretty amazing if you don't ask them to do too much (like stretch the tempo too far or play wacky changes.)

Bob Merrill,

I pretty much do the same. Since I don't use a computer based DAW, D&D is not available to me. My DAW is two Roland VS2480, a stand alone DAW. I have a set up where I can digitally transfer 16 tracks at once if I upgrade my MOTU card that is compatible with dual-core CPU. I haven't done this because BIAB is not MTC or SMPTE capable.

Please keep in mind that I am NOT a Real Band user. I didn't see a need to get into it until now. I am a bit concerned with the "regeneration time" with Real Band.

My understanding about Real Band was that once the tracks (instruments) are in RB, there is no re-gen time required. I guess I've been misinformed.

Once in RB, I would want each track to play exactly the same. In other words, I'd have 2 or more "guitar" tracks from BIAB in RB so I can edit and comp one finished "guitar" track. This is specially true when comping a solo part. I'm sure you know how much work is required to come up with a solo that actually plays like the way you'd want a solo to sound like.

It sounds like I need to export each track from BIAB as WAV. file into RB to eliminate long re-gen time. For me I would not want the playback change every time I press play. Once the 5 piece band is transferred using MTC from RB into my DAW, I can change all the instruments to the same real track within a specified bars to play all solos, thus creating 4 different solo takes at once. Replay each track to audition, then edit and comp a finished solo part in RB AND I can listen "IN CONTEXT" in rel time because MTC generated from RB is syncing my DAW's playback. To audition new instrument, I just have to load an all MIDI style (MIDI style regenerates much faster), solo 1 track, and assign a new Real Track to the soloed track, then press play. The new instrument can be heard "in context" since the DAW is "synced" to RB.

I'm thinking that this is how my workflow will proceed. If someone knows otherwise, please chime in.

Bob, do you have any of your work posted somewhere? Since you are using BIAB for clients like myself, I would love to hear your work.

Here are 9 BIAB tracks from my client's CD that was released last month.

Link to 9 BIAB SONGS

I would love to hear what you think of them, specially we provide service using BIAB.

Thanks
Ed Layola

Hi Ed,

Great work with the songs.

Regarding Realband where you said...

Quote:

My understanding about Real Band was that once the tracks (instruments) are in RB, there is no re-gen time required

Whenever a track has to be generated, as I'm sure you're aware, it requires samples of pre-recorded files to be sliced up, rearranged and compiled to create a track that conforms with the chord progression that a user has put in. This will always require computer time to accomplish. Maybe the person who misled you was talking about loading a song back into RB that had been saved as an SEQ file. Since this is a complete file, and regeneration of the tracks is not required, the song will play much quicker.

As I understand it, Realband and BIAB both take about the same amount of time regenerate a track. A BIG difference though, is that BIAB begins playing before regeneration is complete and the remaining regeneration is accomplished as a background process. RB, on the other hand, fully completes regeneration before commencing playback.

Hope this information is of use,
Noel

Ed,

I listened to most of the songs you have posted. Collectively they showcase your singing and songwriting talent, BIAB, and your production skills. If I am correct in understanding that any parts not specifically credited to a particular player were generated in BIAB, I'm blown away. I am referring specifically to a sax solo and a Mark Knopfler-like guitar solo in two separate pieces.

If BIAB can produce a sax line like that, I'm going to have to take another look at Real Tracks. There is hope for a piece I've had on the shelf while I waited for the right player to show up. Until now I have restricted myself to MIDI and live players (with the exception of a Real Tracks trombone solo on one 40s-style jazz tune.) Much food for thought here.

Wait a second. In the steps you are talking about why the concern about regeneration times? We are talking a few seconds. And once you have something to work with you freeze it.

My computer is not the latest greatest or best but I don't see an issue there at all. NOW, if you load up RealTracks with 8 Realinstruments and leave them all to regenerate each time, sure, you are going to end up with 20 seconds where you wring your hands.

As to what gear to use, I knew a guy here with one of those, he was too important for we the great unwashed. Alas he bought an apple computer and his 'baby' sat in one of the gear stores, he was trying to get 900 bucks for it.

I certainly don't understand having RealBand, then saying I don't use it due to some concern.\\
I have it, have used it, and mostly don't.

That's because I love to practice 50 random pieces a day and no one needs a 'DAW' to loop Satin Doll.

Noel,

Thanks for listening to my work.

At one time, I got the wrong impression that when you open a BIAB file in RB, the tracks were "frozen" thus re-gen was not required. The same person, I think, also told me that NEITHER BIAB or RB was not sync capable. So I had some wrong ideas about RB in general.

What I want to do is generate Real Track instrument in BIAB. Once I have a track that I like, I would export that instrument as WAV. file and import it into RB. Please understand that my experience with RB is nearly zero. In reality I need to spend some time exploring RB to find out what it can do for me in particular. Just knowing that RB is MTC capable makes me very happy. Once I get into RB, I'll be asking some questions in this forum.

________________
Ryszard,

Thanks for listening. By the way, its my client who is the singer/songwriter. I'm his producer. His 10 song CD generated about $5000 for me in 2011. BIAB is a great investment.

I have used BIAB for clients in the all MIDI days. But I always "groove quantized" all my MIDI sequences in Sonar, then digitally recorded the sound module's output into my Roland DAW. Actually, the second track "Someone to Love" is all MIDI with "groove quantize" on them.

When REAL TRACKS came along, I was blown away with the sound. I can't wait for my 2012 to arrive. Bunch more Real Tracks and some cool new features.

That said . . . things are not quite as automatic as PG Music would want us to believe

. . . specially when generating a SOLOS. The first thing you will find out is that there are too few "solist" Real Tracks to choose from. What I did was to recommend styles (2 or 3 at most) to my client knowing that these have usable "soloist" Real Tracks I can use.

It takes some work to generate solos that are good enough for me. The particular sax solo you mentioned started with about a dozen "takes" from BIAB recorded into my DAW. Once in the DAW, I comped the parts I liked down to the finished solo. Before I get something I liked well enough to keep as a "take", I must have re-generated and listened to half a dozen re-gens. All this takes time and patience. All the solos were "created" in a similar manner. BIAB, IMO is very versatile tool ever since Real Tracks were introduced.

Now . . . If they can come out with Joe Satriani RT guitar, or Larry Carlton RT guitar would be cool as hell !

I have a lot of experimenting to do.

Thanks
Ed

Quote:

At one time, I got the wrong impression that when you open a BIAB file in RB, the tracks were "frozen" thus re-gen was not required. The same person, I think, also told me that NEITHER BIAB or RB was not sync capable. So I had some wrong ideas about RB in general.

You don't have the wrong impression, Ed, that is exactly what happens. The parts will be laid out on separate tracks, just as if you ahd recorded them in the sequencer. The parts will not change with each hit of the Play button as they would in BB unless the songe was intentionally "frozen". No need for that in RB since the Tracks themselves stick with what was imported unless you tell it otherwise.

RB also has the ability to generate new tracks, either of the same instrument (realtrack) and a new performance, or generate new instruments that follow the chords as well.

--Mac

I've watched a 'major' player do takes for a solo to be part of an indie soundtrack. I happened to be in the 'big' PA store here, the one with the stages that are trailers and the stacks and stacks of PA gear big bands use. Their studio is in the back of the 2nd floor. Some recording guys from Toronto met this guy from Montreal. Sax player.

The spent all day for 30 seconds of material. About 6 hours studio time. Figure it out. Fly the guy in and back. A whole day to organize the studio. One of those 120 some channel boards with 3 guys in a booth. Catered lunches. I got there at 2, they locked the front door and gave me an adult beverage.

So if software can sort of duplicate that process then shazam, yer onto something.

[quote]
Here are 9 BIAB tracks from my client's CD that was released last month.

Link to 9 BIAB SONGS

I would love to hear what you think of them, specially we provide service using BIAB.

Thanks
Ed Layola [/quote]

Excelent musical and audio production Ed! Glad to know you are using Band-in-a-Box, RB and RT. It make a undeniably added value to your outstanding professional skills and talent.

Carlos

Quote:

So if software can sort of duplicate that process then shazam, yer onto something

John,

Yeh, when BIAB can give you an adult beverage you're really onto something. Me, I'm waiting for Groupies-in-a-Box.

Carlos, thank you for your kind words.

After more than 30 years in studio and live sound, I've seen a lot. When it comes to recording in the studio, studio owners like myself, loves disorganized artists and producers. Back in the analog days, before BIAB was invented, the going price for a 1" 16 track project studio around here was around $15 to $40 per hour with an engineer. Most of the studio clients were for local demo projects. Lot of the clients were young amateur musicians. They never rehearse well enough to be truly ready to record, or they just are not good musicians.

Even today, things have not changed much. Even seasoned local musicians that come into the studio to do solos are mostly "live" players. "LIVE" . . . you can get away with a lot. In the studio, you need to "WRITE" the solo . . . you just can't "wing it" unless you're Eric Clapton. Once the solo is "written" AND WELL REHEARSED, then its finally time to do it in the studio. I stopped counting many years ago, how many times I had to teach or explain someone "how to" write a solo.

Before I take on a project I always listen to a "boom box" recording of their rehearsal. That tells me more about the band than anything else. In the last few years I've told a number of bands that they are not ready to record in a studio.

The last band I turned down was a group of college kids that "jammed" together a lot. Since their songs were pretty simple, I fired up BIAB, entered the chords, picked a "style" that was similar to their song and I pressed play while I said "You guys need to be pretty close to how tight this is". Jaws dropped . . . followed by their silent stare at each other. When I played the guitar solo I generated with a few key press . . . the guitar player walked out of the control room shaking his head.

BIAB kind of leaves any amateur musicians in the dust. A decent local band I recorded wanted to hire a guitarist to do the solo. As usual he didn't have anything written for his 12 bar solo. After 6 hours and 12 keep-able takes, we had a couple of solos that was acceptable. Not great, just acceptable. That was $240 in studio time plus $200 the player got paid. I was not impressed.

Since the song was played to a click track, I generated a guitar solo in BIAB. A couple of places, the generated solo wasn't quite "in time" with the rest of the band. I saved the solo as a WAV file and imported it into Ableton Live. I tweaked a few places for timing and imported the finished solo into my DAW. Did it in less than 3 hours. When I played the song for the band leader . . . he was blown away.

BIAB is a great tool to write solos. Its usually easy enough to learn for a decent player.

BIAB if just GREAT in a studio environment !

Thanks
Ed

The software has been customer driven.

The purpose was to provide backing tracks like any music minus one program.

The evolution has been driven by the wishlist.

You can, if you want, generate hundreds of guitar parts from a chord sequence, and take them all and import them to your DAW. But now it seems the purpose is the sync the program, so it plays but sends a code to some product AVID makes and the two make a movie based on the time code? Sorry, but to be blunt I plain don't get it.

How is the Band in a Box driving some other software with realtime codes to sync stuff?

Why?

This, to my mind, has not been addressed. To say that every person on earth is blue except you and you need to conform, that's nice, but WHY? What is going to be earth shaking.

So far this week I've learned again that nothing in the music world that counts is done unless it is on a Mac, and if Band in a Box would only realize that and become totally MAC then they would be rich and buying yachts and hiring computer support people in a remote Indian village where Hindu customs mean we are closed today.

Now I've learned that the former is untrue because M. Yoda has pointed out that the whole universe has time code and Band in a Box can sell to every major studio in the whole Milky Way as we know it if they just...did x. Righto. I get it. Forget the wish list. The producers version with time code is out and for a mere 20,000 dollars a studio gets all of Band in a Box 13. Ha.

Please explain how this works, and what is the best way to make Band in a Box drive some other software and I'm buying it. Maybe if the box is pretty I'll get two. Gee, even right here in my sad studio I have 5 boxes that say Band in a Box, along with that GPO thing and the Sibelius 7 Mac made me buy. Golly.

John Conley,

I understand your general point of view. Why "sync" capability . . . ??

For users with "studio-in-my-computer" set up, in a room with computer speakers or low end monitors, "sync" capability is probably not needed.

The "sync" capability is how a music software "plays nice" with the rest of the world. Commercial studio owners, engineers and producers are creatures of habit. This is true for a small commercial project studio like mine or a much larger studios catering to large record labels. It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or Cubase on a PC. I can take my laptop and my BIAB on the Audiofile HD to ANY studio and I can "play nice" with whats there. All I need is some digital input into the studio system.

Please understand that at a commercial level, only the raw instrument tracks without effects or dynamics are needed. Effects and dynamic processing is one of the many tools used in the mixing process. This is why I take the instrument track from BIAB into DAW separately. This is where "sync capability" is desirable. If BIAB was sync capable, I just have to solo 2 instruments, pan one full left and the other full right, arm my DAW to record, press play on BIAB and the DAW will record "in sync". It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or a stand alone DAW like my Roland VS2480.

As I said, we are creatures of habit. Mixing on my DAW makes everything in my studio available for use during mixing. If an engineer is a Pro Tools user, he is going to mix on Pro Tools. If he is a Cubase user, he is going to mix on Cubase.

The point is, BIAB with Real Tracks and Real Drums have evolved into a very commercially usable software. The ability to "sync" with existing set up is a must if BIAB is going to be embraced in the commercial environment.

I am very excited that guitar Real Tracks have Direct Input recording in 2012. This gives studio owners more creative choices. Now I can use the various guitar effects modules and patches I have. After I have the DI track in my DAW, I can digitally insert my Digi Tech multi effects pedal during mix ! VERY COOL !

When mixing, there is a reason why I have 16 stereo multi-effects and dynamics on each channel available. Not to mention some effects units from Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland etc.

Its time for BIAB to come out of the closet and join the rest of the audio world.

Ed

But that's my point, and you made it. The point was to have a Band

down

down

In a box.

To play along with.

If you can convince them via the wishlist how to do this and make cash or run the space shuttle program in russia, more the power to you.

Peter gave an eloquent dissertation on midi in the wishlist. It should be read when you post what you think is the solution to all their dreams.

I've given into the need for narcotics again, and I'll be a kinder more gentle moron soon. My doctor gave me permission...

morphine time ? ...AGAIN ?

Ah, once or twice a week. I'm under control I guess. I went most of the way to the wrong place when I got back from the brink, so I have eternal fire on my legs from the hips down. The rest of me is going to burn one way or the other. I'm not having the kiln fired up yet, I've got more posts to go yet!

My friend takes 200 supplements a day. Takes hours. How he's alive I don't know.

I showed him mine. LOL. Not fair eh?

That guy would inhale snails breath if I told him it was suggested to prolong life.

I've nothing against that, but I have garlic, butter and parsley. Sprinkle with parmesean and fresh pepper and enjoy!

The Band in A Box "Drag 'n Drop" feature is MUCH faster than recording from sync...

--Mac

Quote:

The Band in A Box "Drag 'n Drop" feature is MUCH faster than recording from sync...

--Mac

A gentle reminder that in order to do that a PG Music product must be installed on the host computer. I'm pretty sure that's not always available to the OP, in addition to the fact that he's working on a hardware DAW where it is not possible at all.

I do it all the time from my USB drive. Sometimes it is necessary to D 'n D to an Explorer window. Then, of course, if the studio is using Macintosh, I first have to convert each wav track to AIFF format and do that on the PC, then do simple file exchange.

Sure it would be nice to have Sync, but until we do...

Git-R-Done

--Mac

Quote:

At one time, I got the wrong impression that when you open a BIAB file in RB, the tracks were "frozen" thus re-gen was not required.

This is one of those very tricky little things Ed. If you open a Biab file with RT's in Real Band those tracks are regenerated and then those tracks show up in blue in the first 8 tracks. Blue tracks are regular Biab tracks and will get regenerated every time. One little point I'm not sure of is if you froze those tracks first in Biab, then opened the file in RB are they still regenerated? This is a fine distinction between opening a Biab file and using the D&D function. I know you can D&D any Biab generated audio track to RB and nothing gets regenerated as long as they're not going to those dedicated blue Biab tracks. I never use those tracks and there's an option in the menu to move those to the bottom never to be seen again. All the other tracks are no different than those tracks would be in Cubase. Once you've recorded (or generated) something on a non-Biab track, nothing changes unless you specifically want to edit it. Another confusing point here is you can still generate parts on a regular RB (not blue) track by selecting a style, right clicking anywhere on the track and following the menu. Nothing is regenerated when you do that unless you do the procedure again.

It does take much longer to generate the same RT tracks in RB than it does in Biab. Someone said it doesn't but that's not true unless there's something wrong with my setup. The regen time depends on how long the song is and how many RT's are being used. Example, as a test I created a 55 bar song in Biab that was all RT's, 5 instruments plus a RT soloist going for 5 choruses. For some reason the RT soloists take at least twice as much time to generate as a regular RT. On my setup Biab started playing the song in 6 or 7 seconds. But to add more confusion it really had not finished generating, Biab has a system that allows the song to start playing while it finishes the generation in the background. That same song with 6 RT's literally took 7 minutes in RB. Yes that's minutes not seconds. It's a huge difference. Just doing one short RT, like 32 bars of one track only is fine, that takes 10-15 seconds or so but a whole 200 bar complex all RT song? Fuggettaboutit. You can go to lunch while RB generates that.

For me anyway I rarely use a Biab file to start things in RB. RB is just another standard DAW with some cool extras like generating Biab parts. I may start with a midi file or I may start with some live recorded tracks I did using my DPS16 digital recorder. But, I certainly see the usefullness of starting with a Biab created song too just don't create it in RB if you're using a bunch of RT's. After I have the bed tracks then like you described in your very good post I'll create a Biab solo using a bunch of takes and cutting and pasting, adding some Real Drums percussion tracks, maybe create an 8 bar RT guitar part, whatever just like you do. At that point I'm only working with one track at a time so the longer generation time doesn't matter much.

Bob

Quote:

I do it all the time from my USB drive.

Of course you do. I've done it myself on a friend's system. "Expert" forgets stone basics.

Now it occurs to me to wonder whether it will run from an 8 Gb SD card . . .

jazzmammal,

I'm still digesting the new features in BIAB. Thanks for your informative post.

Seems my instinct was right. I would be doing all my generating in BIAB and do the comping in RB. I just need to do some comparison on the editing track abilities for my DAW vs RB. The great thing is, I can listen to BIAB tracks in sync with tracks on my DAW using RB.

Now, I don't have to start recording into my DAW until much later in the project process. I start with scratch track vocal and guitar recorded to a metronome. Then I would generate BIAB tracks, 2 or 3 styles and record them as stereo tracks into the DAW. I would then visually sync them for the next session. We decide on a style, record a new scratch vocal and guitar tracks if any. Record BIAB tracks from the selected style into individual tracks for the next session. As the project progresses, every time changes were made, I've had to re-record BIAB tracks individually.

Now that RB can sync, I don't have to record into the DAW until I'm quite certain that all changes to the backing tracks are all done. Until all the tracks are recorded into the DAW, I can just sync the computer to my DAW hear both. It would certainly make life easier on my part.

I have to admit, I'm not looking forward to LEARNING a new DAW . . . Real Band . . . new trick for an old dog.

Thanks
Ed

I'm a pro musician but not a pro recording engineer. I just putz around with my home studio and do some decent stuff but certainly not at your level.

Real Band is unique. On one hand it pales in comparison to Cubase, Sonar and other DAWs when it comes to editing, automation, drawing volume envelopes, that kind of stuff. But for basic recording, using multiple VST's both synths and effects, multiple output ports etc it's equivalent. Where it will really grab you is the Biab functions. You have to learn to think outside of the normal DAW box. Say you have your basic bass, drums, guitar, keyboard tracks and maybe some scratch vocals. You're not happy with the guitar part. Pick an empty track, right click and generate a different guitar part. Go to the next track down, pick a different style and do yet another different part, do it again for the third track down. Now play back the song and play with the track mute buttons and cycle back and forth between those different guitar parts and you can easily decide if any one of those might work or maybe parts of each one can work in different parts of the song.

Another thing, say your in studio bass player did the basic song ok but the groove part under a solo is not so hot. You find a Real Track bass part that fits that pretty well. We both know that even if the tone isn't exactly the same you have the equipment you need to fix that in the mix so you just may plug in that RT to cover for the live player then bring him back in. With RB you can do so much creating of parts using all the styles it's mind boggling.

RB has 48 tracks so you can do that kind of experimentation using all of them. Of course you already know if you tried one part and don't like it delete it so you keep your track view area as clean as possible. You can create different parts using different styles and instruments on the same track over and over by just deleting one and generating another. I do this all the time with the drums. I may generate four different drum or percussion tracks and then mix, match, cut and paste them all over the song. Another thing don't be hung up on just using the Real Tracks. If you have high quality synths available some of the Biab midi parts are killer. The cool thing about midi parts is they generate in just a couple of seconds, no waiting. Much easier to experiment with those. Most of the Biab midi drum parts were done with a live drummer on a midi kit. I will run a Biab midi drum part through Jamstix using my favorite Yamaha Studio Drums kit and it sounds great. That Yamaha kit sounds almost identical to a lot of the Real Drums tracks. I will use midi drums for certain song specific punches or fills and mix them with a RD part. Sounds pretty darn good for a demo if not for a final commercial production.

Bob

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It would make more sense to me to just export the MIDI data to cubase. There really isn't any good reason to run to the two programs in sync that I can see.

That exporting is done with the Drag & Drop feature in BIAB. I just watched a great on video in the video section here that explains it very well.

Ok, for those here who seem sceptical of why anyone would want or benefit from having a feature to allow BIAB to "sync with an external sequencer, heres one:

I use BIAB for the Mac, but since I wanted to be able to experiment with creating melodies and chord changes in a flexible and easily changed manner, more than a year ago I purchased and tried out REALBAND, even though I am a mac user.

I really wanted Realband to be the go-to tool for creating new stuff since it allowed in theory one to work on one melodic MIDI part while
also experimenting with chord change ideas.

I come from a jazz/fusion/prog background so playing around with novel harmonies is de-rigeur. Three chord tricks these aint !.

But after giving REALBAND a sympathetic go, I ended up rejecting it, getting a refund and going back to my Mac based BIAB.

Reasons were buggyness, a poor user interface, and basically I just missed my REAL DAWs - ie Logic and Ableton. RealBand just doesn't cut it.

Not only this - but the way chords and arrangements are built in REALBAND are - maybe for very good reasons - different in how one does things in BIAB, and i liked the non-linear way one arranges a song and structure in BIAB - even if its a bit crude.

So heres the thing. BIAB on the mac generates brilliant parts, and it CAN of course control my sequencers of choice - currently Ableton. But only with BIAB as the "master" not the slave.

This almost works ok ish it allows me to work on a melody in MIDI in the DAW, while using BIAB to try out chord change ideas ON THE FLY !

But heres the rub. Currently I can control the DAW with my MIDI melody from BIAB. This means bringing the BIAB window into the foreground and clicking the BIAB Start or Stop buttons.

But although this is fine when one is tweaking the chord changes and arrangement, it SUCKS when one is tweaking the MIDI melody one is working on inside the DAW.

I want to be able to stop and start the BIAB arrangement while having the DAW window in the foreground.

This is the most natural way of working, and lets one easily work on the ( in my case quite complex ) melody line while
hearing how the melody fits the current chord changes.

All this talk of exporting MIDI and audio into the DAW is all very well. But ONLY once ones ideas are FINALISED.

While i am on this topic can I also beg the BIAB PC music team to at least built in some of the remote control CONDUCTOR features
that WINDOWS users get ?

why oh why are Mac users always given second best ?

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John Conley,

I understand your general point of view. Why "sync" capability . . . ??

For users with "studio-in-my-computer" set up, in a room with computer speakers or low end monitors, "sync" capability is probably not needed.

The "sync" capability is how a music software "plays nice" with the rest of the world. Commercial studio owners, engineers and producers are creatures of habit. This is true for a small commercial project studio like mine or a much larger studios catering to large record labels. It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or Cubase on a PC. I can take my laptop and my BIAB on the Audiofile HD to ANY studio and I can "play nice" with whats there. All I need is some digital input into the studio system.

Please understand that at a commercial level, only the raw instrument tracks without effects or dynamics are needed. Effects and dynamic processing is one of the many tools used in the mixing process. This is why I take the instrument track from BIAB into DAW separately. This is where "sync capability" is desirable. If BIAB was sync capable, I just have to solo 2 instruments, pan one full left and the other full right, arm my DAW to record, press play on BIAB and the DAW will record "in sync". It doesn't matter if the DAW is Pro Tools on a Mac or a stand alone DAW like my Roland VS2480.

As I said, we are creatures of habit. Mixing on my DAW makes everything in my studio available for use during mixing. If an engineer is a Pro Tools user, he is going to mix on Pro Tools. If he is a Cubase user, he is going to mix on Cubase.

The point is, BIAB with Real Tracks and Real Drums have evolved into a very commercially usable software. The ability to "sync" with existing set up is a must if BIAB is going to be embraced in the commercial environment.

I am very excited that guitar Real Tracks have Direct Input recording in 2012. This gives studio owners more creative choices. Now I can use the various guitar effects modules and patches I have. After I have the DI track in my DAW, I can digitally insert my Digi Tech multi effects pedal during mix ! VERY COOL !

When mixing, there is a reason why I have 16 stereo multi-effects and dynamics on each channel available. Not to mention some effects units from Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland etc.

Its time for BIAB to come out of the closet and join the rest of the audio world.

Ed

I so agree with you o wise-one Yoder

Let me add one word that should be shouted from the rooftops - EXPERIMENTATION !!!!!!!!

The whole point of using software to create music is that it is meant to aid experimentation. We can tweak stuff.

As you rightly say, BIAB is now something that can really help the music producer , arranger or person working on ideas in a fluid fashion.

Even if one is only using BIAB to try out chord change and style ideas - and then intends to replace it all with real session musicians or hand-crafted MIDI tracks in a "proper" DAW - BIAB can be great to try out ideas.

But since one cannot work on melodic MIDI parts easily inside BIAB ( at least not on the MAC - and the MAC is pretty much de rigeur in most studio setups )
and since RealBand is a different beast, and actually makes it HARDER to quickly try out different arrangement ideas than BIAB does,

this really does beg for a means to SYNC BIAB to a sequencer, and THAT way round - with BIAB being a SLAVE and not just master.

Incidentally - with the demise of BANDSTAND, I have finally found a viable solution that uses the old NI Bandstand sample set along with NI Kontakt.

For this one needs to have at least 8GB of RAM - and 16GB would be better.

IFor this you need to use the ABLETON 64 bit beta. Also to be running OSX Lion or upwards. The 64 bit mode of Logic will not work. ( There is an issue with saving such large Kontakt Multis. )

What I do is create 5 * Kontakt 127 instrument banks, one for each of the five MIDI channels that BIAB sends MIDI on.

Then into four of the banks I put the 127 BANDSTAND GM Kontakt instruments - in GM PC order of course. And Into one bank i put the 8 or so GM Drum kits and assign this to channel 10.

Now of course if you have better grand pianos etc in your Kontakt sample library than the ones that come with BANDSTAND all the better. I for example use the Grand Piano that comes with Kontakt 5.

Set each instrument bank to receive from the appropriate MIDI channel and then assign each bank to a seperate set of stereo outs.

In ableton you then need to configure a single track for the Kontakt plugin. Add five separate MIDI tracks to send MIDI to the master Kontakt track. Also record enable all five MIDI tracks so they receive MIDI from the virtual BIAB MIDI outputs.

Doing all this replicates some if not all of the true GM2 functionality of the great BANDSTAND.

Im tempted to buy the new Steinberg Halion Sonic but it seems to me this ain't quite there yet.

FINALLY -

I really wish we could have a basic Piano Roll style editor feature in BIAB for the Mac - just for ONE track - the melody. So we can easily work on developing a tune - the melody ALONGSIDE ones ideas for the chord changes.

And NO - i do NOT want to have to switch to RealBand just to do this simple thing.