Simply, love it! I have not used them yet, but like the idea and the jazz piano from Garritan (which I have used in some of my songs) sounds fantastic on these midi piano styles. I'm not sure if the acoustic base used for the demos is also from the Garritan library, but is sounds terrific, I would like to know though. To be frank, I think that the piano midi tracks sounds a lot better to me than some of the piano real tracks. Also, being a Cuban, I'm pleased to see the new Cuban real tracks. I appreciate that. Thanks PG Music.
Pete, I use a lot of Cuban / Puerto Rican beats with my compositions, and often blend the Brazilian styles with them. My Latin percussionist was with me during beta testing, and he lit up when I played the Son Montuno and Bolero RealTracks. He said they were authentic, which is no surprise with Rebeca Mauleon playing piano. They sure sound great to me!
I wrote a whole CD worth of tunes for him a few years ago and I wish we had these sounds then.
The reason the midi piano Supertracks sound better than some of the piano RT's is the sustain pedal especially on slower songs. A pianist spends years learning proper use of the pedal, it's not just all the way down or all the way up. They "ride" the pedal a lot, using a lot of partial or half pedaling techniques. The pedal is specifically used to smooth out transitions between chord changes and phrases. With an audio RT, the player has no idea what chords you're going to use so when a RT goes from a Cmaj7 to a Em unless that change was prerecorded you're going to hear the Cmaj7 chopped off as soon as the Em is played. Afaik there is no post processing envelope or something that can emulate partial sustain in an audio file. That makes for a very unnatural sounding RT piano part on slow stuff. Faster tempo's it's not so noticeable.
Midi can use as much pedaling as you want because it's not audio, it's midi. There's lots of midi pianos now that use partial pedaling and those CC sustains are written into the midi part as the pianist is playing it. Makes all the difference in the world as long as you're using a good quality synth. And since it's midi, you can take a Supertrack and have it play as a string section, flutes, another keyboard, whatever.
Bob
Not just the pedaling, Bob, but the FINGERS as well here, the Supertracks capture the subtle Velocity data of the Pianoforte when played by the skilled pianist like this and captured as Phrase data ala the RealTracks engine. And it all goes together to make for dynamite performances.
Rumors of MIDI's death appear to have been greatly exaggerated...
--Mac
I hear you Matt, yes, they sound pretty good. When it comes to son montuno, bolero, and the so called "salsa" rhythms, altough being these all born in Cuba, the Puerto Rican musicians stay true to them. Also, the previously released latin rhythms sounds pretty good too. Yes I have a couple of Bossa tunes in which I switch from bossa to latin jazz usually at the "B" section or at the middle chorus a la Poncho Sanchez. Comes out pretty darn good.
On the note of Midi super tracks; I would also like to see some wind instruments like sax and trumpet at some point, that would be great.
Later
The problem with sax's and horns is midi synths. They along with guitars is the primary reason for Real Tracks being developed in the first place. Unlike the finger velocity on a keyboard that can be captured and played back via midi like Mac said, all the tonguing, slurs and such that horns players do cannot be captured by midi because I don't know if there's a controller that does all that so it can be captured. Even the best mega thousand dollar keyboards have mediocre sax's at best and that's using mod wheels and ribbon controllers to try to get a realistic sound out of the patch. I doubt a midi Supertrack sax would be very impressive. Straight trumpets and bones yeah, maybe but still no falls, slurs, blats, overtone screams, doights and all that cool stuff brass players can do.
Bob
Ok Bob, you just killed my dream, but although not an expert, I understand the limitations you're talking about when it comes to brass instruments.
Later
I think that use of MIDI wind controllers such as the EWI, in the hands of great musicians, just may be able to roll some horn MIDI Supertracks in future.
--Mac
Bob you are correct. I use a free Stylizer program from Ntonyx.com which applies algorithms to the Midi data using the GM instrument number as the base together with a small number of variable parameters which has a good stab at improving the musicality of the Midi data.
This is not perfect and some editing using the Piano Roll is usually necessary. Even then much of the clever stuff is difficult to produce authentically. I have also banks of soundfonts which include falls, doiks, stabs, growls etc. which can help. However, the end results do not fool a musician.
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The problem with sax's and horns is midi synths. They along with guitars is the primary reason for Real Tracks being developed in the first place. Unlike the finger velocity on a keyboard that can be captured and played back via midi like Mac said, all the tonguing, slurs and such that horns players do cannot be captured by midi because I don't know if there's a controller that does all that so it can be captured. Even the best mega thousand dollar keyboards have mediocre sax's at best and that's using mod wheels and ribbon controllers to try to get a realistic sound out of the patch. I doubt a midi Supertrack sax would be very impressive. Straight trumpets and bones yeah, maybe but still no falls, slurs, blats, overtone screams, doights and all that cool stuff brass players can do.
Bob
Sorry Bob, I must strongly disagree.
There is nothing wrong with MIDI, only some synths and synth players. I use a physical modeling synth (Yamaha VL70-m) with a Yamaha WX5 controller and I can get the nuances of sax (scoops etc.), trumpet (including lip slurs), guitar (including hammer-ons & pull-offs) and a number of other instruments.
I have fooled professional trumpet players and guitar players into thinking I was playing trumpet and guitar when in reality I was playing synth.
It's about (1) having the right controller (2) having the right synthesizer (3) learning how to coax the proper nuances out of the synth with your controller.
My physical tenor sax is set up with a huge chambered/tip opening metal mouthpiece to play a big "Texas Tenor" sound (think Clarence Clemmons) and in order to have a nice mellow ballad sound, I would need to put my #6 Otto Link hard rubber mouthpiece on it, which will then have a dry reed, and require re-tuning the sax. Impractical to do in a live setting. So I play the wind synth with more mellow sax patches.
Check out This Link and This Link for some mellower sax sounds and for guitar sounds check out This Link and This one - Note: they were ripped at a low bit-rate so the tone is thin, but you can hear the nuances quite well.
These were done on a synth module that I paid $500 for.
Now tell me in all honesty that you can't do MIDI sax or guitar. You just need the skill and the right equipment.
Notes
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
- 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
- 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
- The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
- The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
- The Beatles Fake Disk
- And an updated Christmas Fake Disk
Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com
Notes. kinda curious how Midi Super tracks play into your current and future style sets.
I'm waiting on my upgrade so all I know is what's posted so far.
Wyndham
Notes, you're correct but we're referring to Biab. You are the resident expert with Biab styles. Are you saying you can program a style in Biab using one of the basic GM synths to do what you're describing because what you're describing is what a lot of us have been saying you can't do with Biab.
Yes, you can do great things with midi using custom CC's with a good controller using a specfic synth but you can't program what you're doing with a customized controller setup linked to that synth into a Biab style using any synth. Am I wrong here?
Bob
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There is nothing wrong with MIDI, only some synths and synth players. I use a physical modeling synth (Yamaha VL70-m) with a Yamaha WX5 controller and I can get the nuances of sax (scoops etc.), trumpet (including lip slurs), guitar (including hammer-ons & pull-offs) and a number of other instruments.
................
By the way, did you tryied the Ketron SD2 with the wind controller?
Thinking to buy one to use with my EWI4000S. Or would I prefer the VL70-m? At a first glance, I would preferr the SD2 because it appears to be "general purpose"... What is your oppinion?
Wow Notes, those are some great sounds! I had watched some youtubes of what wind conrollers can do. Fascinating! I'm very tempted to get one and learn how to play it since I'm selling one of my trumpets. Oops, got off the midi super tracks a little here.
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Wow Notes, those are some great sounds! I had watched some youtubes of what wind conrollers can do. Fascinating! I'm very tempted to get one and learn how to play it since I'm selling one of my trumpets. Oops, got off the midi super tracks a little here.
You have a PM.
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There is nothing wrong with MIDI, only some synths and synth players. I use a physical modeling synth (Yamaha VL70-m) with a Yamaha WX5 controller and I can get the nuances of sax (scoops etc.), trumpet (including lip slurs), guitar (including hammer-ons & pull-offs) and a number of other instruments.
................
By the way, did you tryied the Ketron SD2 with the wind controller?
Thinking to buy one to use with my EWI4000S. Or would I prefer the VL70-m? At a first glance, I would preferr the SD2 because it appears to be "general purpose"... What is your oppinion?
I haven't tried the Ketron with my wind controller, but I have tried plenty of other sample-based synths. None of them can hold a candle to physical modeling.
In my opinion, if you want to emulate other instruments you really want the VL70-m.
Why?
Playing with a sampler or a sample based synth feels like you are triggering samples. Playing with a physical modeling synth feels like you are playing an instrument. The subtle gestures you make with your lip and thumb controllers allow you to play subtle nuances and more.
When you scoop up on a sax patch with my VL, not only does the pitch change, but the tone also subtly changes making the scoop sound like a scoop instead of just a pitch bend. When I bend down on the blues harp patch, the tone changes drastically muting the high frequencies as if the harmonica player was cupping the harp with his/her hand. When I wiggle the reed on a brass patch, the note jumps up and down to the next harmonic just like a trumpet or trombone player does when he/she does a lip slur.
For emulating saxes, guitars, trumpets, trombones, harmonicas and quite a few other instruments, using the right MIDI controller in the hands of a talented musician and a physical modeling synth can provide the very best emulation of those instruments.
Admittedly the tone is better on a sample based synth. But the ability to create nuances on physical modeling far exceed any lacking in tone. When you hear an impressionist/comedian 'doing' a famous person (like the president or an actor) you hear the president or the actor. Why? Not because the impressionist/comedian has an identical voice, it is because the impressionist/comedian can recreate the nuances of the president or the actor's speech.
IMHO most musicians get too hung up on tone anyway. The real secret to playing a convincing sax synth or guitar synth is not tone, it's the ability to be an impressionist.
And each form of synthesis has it's strong and weak points. Remember FM and the old DX7? I don't think another method of synthesis does a better job at many melodic percussion instruments like vibes, Rhodes, Wurli, and dozens of others. But it doesn't do saxophones very well because it cannot recreate many of the sax nuances. Using the right method of synthesis for the job is important.
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Wow Notes, those are some great sounds! I had watched some youtubes of what wind conrollers can do. Fascinating! I'm very tempted to get one and learn how to play it since I'm selling one of my trumpets. Oops, got off the midi super tracks a little here.
Thanks. If you listen, the sounds aren't all that great - they sound much better 'live' but they were ripped at a very low bit-rate for fast streaming. All but the last guitar clip were ripped at 56kbps. IMHO to get a decent sounding mp3 you need to go 196kbps minimum. The reason they sound as realistic as they do is not because the tone is right, it is because the player and the synth module were able to recreate the nuances of sax and guitar.
If I played the guitar patch using the same technique as I did the sax patch, the guitar patch would have sounded lame.
Music is more than note on/velocity/note off. This is what too many MIDI people do, and is why MIDI gets a bum rap. There are a number of continuous controllers that let you manipulate the sound during the entire duration of each note, from attack to release. They govern more than tone but emulate what a wind player does with his/her lips or a guitarist with his/her fingers/feet and so on. I have a complete list published here http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html
I have MIDI continuous controllers assigned to my WX5s breath sensor, reed sensor, thumb up rocker, thumb down rocker, two different toggle (on/off) keys and one foot rocker pedal. Depending on the patch and synth I can get wah wah sounds on trumpet or guitar, breath noise that varies with my breath support (like sax subtones or a flute), flutter tongue, throat distortion, I can even use one to emulate the tonal changes that a sax player does by changing the shape of his/her mouth while playing.
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You have a PM.
Sorry Mario, I didn't get the PM. Try again.
Back to super MIDI tracks and their ability to emulate other instruments.
Like all MIDI, in order to emulate other instruments you need the skill of the person playing the MIDI controller, the MIDI controller used, and the playback module. The weakest link with be the limiting factor.
MIDI doesn't sound 100% like the acoustic instrument and perhaps never will. But it can sound 100% like a recording of the acoustic instrument. But then, audio files also sound like a recording of the instrument.
MIDI allows you editing functions that pure audio does not (yet). For example: I have a number of clean guitars in my SD90. Say I'm working on a MIDI file that has a clean guitar. I can make it sound like a Tele rear pickup, Tele neck pickup, Les Paul, Strat, ES-335 and quite a few other guitars. Or getting farther away from clean guitars I can take that clean guitar and use a patch called AttackClav, turn it into one of many distorted guitars, or one of may acoustic ones. All this with a patch change.
Second example. I really like that drum part, but the cymbal would sound better as a cowbell. No problem, click and drag in my sequencer and the ride cymbal is now a cowbell. Bass drum too boomy? Not boomy enough? I've got plenty to choose from. Take the reverb off the kick drum? No problem, move it to another synth and take off the reverb while leaving the snare on the synth with reverb.
At the advice from Peter Gannon and others on this forum, I have done a bit of editing with Audio files and found I can do a lot of things with them that I didn't know I could (thank you all). But there are still a lot of editing I can do with MIDI files that I cannot do with Audio files, so I for one welcome new MIDI tracks.
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
- 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
- 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
- The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
- The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
- The Beatles Fake Disk
- And an updated Christmas Fake Disk
Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com
The physical modeling synth Notes is using is based on something called waveguide synthesis, which turns out to be pretty easy to implement. The main difficulty lies in changing the length of the waveguide without getting glitches, which can be done by crossfading to a second waveguide.
In comparison to sample-based technology, the sound isn't as accurate, but in terms of performance, just about nothing comes close.
Did I mention it's also computationally inexpensive?
There have been two issues with it catching on. The first is the patents, which I believe are due to expire this year. So there's hope that some VSTis may be developed.
The second issue is a lack of inexpensive breath controllers. Wind controllers aren't cheap, and at this point, I don't think anyone is still manufacturing breath controllers (although someone has been promising come out with one for the last couple of years).
And it's the performance that sells physical modeling. Without that, it sounds like cheap synthesis.
Notes, that PM was for Shastastan.
Mr. Sax and his "brothers", from Samplemodeling? I would prefer the hardware for playing live (because I don´t trust computers there, a glitch can be a disaster there), but the VL70-m is expensive for my budget, and is out of the market now.
The internal sounds of the EWI4000S are not good, not to say bad.
Sorry this may look offtopic but, in fact, it is about rendering midi horn/wind instruments into BIAB (or any other "midi player")...
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Notes, that PM was for Shastastan.
No wonder I didn't get it 
I'm reading the post, so it must be for me - right???
dcuny
Yamaha makes the WX5 and Akai makes a couple of EWI models.
Expensive? Not really, but not cheap either. I've seen the WX5 street price under $550. The EWI for slightly under $500 and the USB version of the EWI for under $250 - but I really prefer the WX5.
Considering what they do and the fact that there are many more keyboard controllers sold, I think the price is fair.
Every MIDI controller has the things it's good at and the thing it doesn't do as well as the others. For solo monophonic voices, the wind MIDI controller works much better than the keyboard - especially paired with the right sound module.
The Yamaha VL70-m was just recently discontinued after a 15 year run, which is a pretty long run for a synth. A few pop up here and there on eBay and/or Craigslist. It's a worthy score if you get one in good condition. I've had 2 for 15 years (one and a backup). I always use them with a power conditioner to minimize spikes and dips in the AC line, and they have both performed flawlessly - and I gig one-nighters, which is hard on gear.
And that's a big plus for hardware synths. Computers evolve and the stuff you use today has a very limited shelf life. How many pre Intel Mac apps still work? Or older Windows programs. I have a Roland MT-32 that i bought in the 1980s and used with my Atari/ST computer. It still works and works with any computer. MIDI is MIDI and so far it hasn't even reached it's full potential.
How many 1980s computer programs still work - and those that do - just how many updates have you purchased? All the MIDI gear I've ever bought still work as good as the day I bought them home.
Notes ♫
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
- 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
- 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
- The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
- The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
- The Beatles Fake Disk
- And an updated Christmas Fake Disk
Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com
Quote:
By the way, did you tryied the Ketron SD2 with the wind controller?
Thinking to buy one to use with my EWI4000S. Or would I prefer the VL70-m? At a first glance, I would preferr the SD2 because it appears to be "general purpose"... What is your oppinion?
Hi Luiz,
Just checked the manual for the SD2 in order to be sure.
NO BREATH CONTROL parameters listed at all.
Check out Yamaha synths, many of the older ones had a Breath controller input jack on the front of the keyboards and many also worked with Wind Controllers. Maybe the code is still there inside some of the newer offerings, even though they no longer have the physical input jack on them as well.
--Mac
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Quote:
By the way, did you tryied the Ketron SD2 with the wind controller?
Thinking to buy one to use with my EWI4000S. Or would I prefer the VL70-m? At a first glance, I would preferr the SD2 because it appears to be "general purpose"... What is your oppinion?
Hi Luiz,
Just checked the manual for the SD2 in order to be sure.
NO BREATH CONTROL parameters listed at all.
Check out Yamaha synths, many of the older ones had a Breath controller input jack on the front of the keyboards and many also worked with Wind Controllers. Maybe the code is still there inside some of the newer offerings, even though they no longer have the physical input jack on them as well.
--Mac
Another option is to change the midi output in the wind controller from CC2 (breath control) to CC11 (expression). Although I do not have a SD2 this has worked for me on all of my other synths.
Hey Bob,
I know what you are saying when it comes to samplers, etc. I'm not a sax or flute player, but I do use a Motif classic keyboard, and a rack Motif ES. Also have the Yamaha breath transducer that I use with the Motif classic (first saw it being used by Eric Clapton's keyboard player using a Motif classic on the 24 nights concert DVD). I use the rack Motif ES with the Motif classic as well as my synth guitars. With the after-touch and other nuances you can get with the Motifs, some pretty realistic sounds can be achieved, including breath nuances, chirps, growls, etc. (my son is an accomplished musician who also plays sax, flute, clarinet, guitar and drums). He and others were impressed. The VL-70 is a nice unit and I've heard some impressive results from that via other musicians.
Richard
cc11 will work on most synth modules, and the WX5 has a DIP switch to remap cc2 (breath) to cc11 (expression). I don't know about the EWI.
The synth you use will have variable results with cc11. Some just change the volume, which is fine for some patches, others change the timbre along with the volume, this is ideal for emulating most acoustic or acoustic/electric instruments.
Whenever you use a wind synth, you also need to know how to tweak synth patches if you want to get the most out of your gear. I can't program a VL70m voice from scratch, but I definitely can tweak all the parameters to get it to do what I want.
Notes
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cc11 will work on most synth modules, and the WX5 has a DIP switch to remap cc2 (breath) to cc11 (expression). I don't know about the EWI.
The synth you use will have variable results with cc11. Some just change the volume, which is fine for some patches, others change the timbre along with the volume, this is ideal for emulating most acoustic or acoustic/electric instruments.
Whenever you use a wind synth, you also need to know how to tweak synth patches if you want to get the most out of your gear. I can't program a VL70m voice from scratch, but I definitely can tweak all the parameters to get it to do what I want.
Notes
Yes, Notes you can remap EWI USB and presumably the 4000 with the included PC software.
Also good points about tweaking patches for a wind controller.