First, big thanks to Pat Marr for alerting me to a special price on Garritan Personal Orchestra yesterday! I bought it and have been playing with it in Reaper and now want to see what is possible in BIAB.

But before I spend any more time trying to get it to do things...I kinda need to know what it can do. So my first question is, can BIAB automatically generate an accompaniment track using GPO as its source much like it does for RealTracks and MIDI SuperTracks? Or, will I always have to enter my music using an external keyboard or my PC?

And my second question is should I switch to RealBand for using GPO? That seems to be what PG recommends.

Thanks in advance for any help!

I have GPO and have used it in Sonar as the source synth for midi tracks. So, in BB, for example, you have a string track that may be midi, you could use GPO to provide a cello or a violin.

I'm not sure how you might do this in BB but in Real Band I think it would be a simple matter to assign the midi to GPO..... as one would do in Sonar. I have never used RB as a DAW so I'm not 100% sure exactly what the process is...... I'm guessing similar to Sonar. Output midi track to GPO synth track and select the sample in GPO to play.

The only problem with using GPO with BiaB is the mod wheel. GPO interprets the mod wheel level as a volume control, not as modulation (effectively vibrato).

GPO does this because it's a controller that's available on many keyboards, so it makes it easy to control that aspect.

Only BiaB doesn't know that GPO uses the modulation controller differently. At the beginning of playback, BiaB (sensibly) sets the mod control wheel to zero. And if you use the humanize playback option, BiaB will send mod wheel events to the track to add vibrato to instruments if appropriate.

Unfortunately, it's not appropriate with GPO.

On some instruments (such as the piano), it has no effect. On others (such as the flute or strings) setting the mod wheel to zero set the volume of the instrument to zero.

There's no setting in GPO to ignore mod wheel events, and no setting in BiaB to not send mod wheel events at the start of the track. (You can tell it not to send mod wheel events as part of the humanize playback).

To get around this, you can manually insert CC events at the beginning of the tracks to set the mod wheel yourself. It's a bit of a pain, but it works. I can't recall if you need to do this each time you regenerate the MIDI track, though.

That's one of the reasons I create the tracks in BiaB and export them to a DAW. The main problem with that approach is that you can't import back into BiaB after you've fiddled with stuff. That's probably why using RB is suggested.

thanks Guitarhacker and dcuny!

sounds like I may have a reason now to learn RealBand!

but because I am absolutely and totally ignorant about MIDI I am still wondering if RealBand will generate parts for me (like it does with RealTracks and MIDI Supertracks) using GPO? or will I need to create those parts (using a keyboard or manually in the software) and then apply an instrument from GPO to it?

I apologize if my question makes no sense...I really know nothing in this area!

I don't think RB will generate a part for you in midi using GPO or any synth as it's output.

I think that is reserved for the samples and real tracks.

I might be wrong, but I've not seen that ability in it...yet.

If you go to RB help file > Content > render(or)rendering you will get a guide on how to do this.
I do my rendering to wav withe VSTi's inside BIAB, but RB also does it.

BTW, once you've done this you'll never be happy the other way.....

thanks seeker...I read that but it seems to be more about rendering an existing track to audio. what I'm puzzled about is how to create the MIDI track in the first place!

I'll try and explain further but I have to apologize in advance because 1) I know nothing about MIDI and 2) I can only use BIAB as a reference as I have not yet used RealBand.

So, here is something I can do now with BIAB,

1) start a new song
2) mute all tracks except one
3) on the unmuted track select MIDI SuperTrack and select 2060:Strings
4) enter my chords
5) press GenPlay and BIAB generates a nice string accompaniment that follows my chords

Is there any way to do something similar using GPO4 instead of the MIDI SuperTrack?

Realband will definitely generate midi styles and super midi tracks using vst's, such as gpo, for playback. I'm not at my computer right now, but, right click on a track in Realband and toward the bottom of the list you will see generate midi solo, style, super midi. When you click on your selection, a choice list will open just like in B&B. Also, the first 8 tracks of realband can work just like B&B. This forum has helped many, many people come to grips with midi...Bobby

The quick answer to your question is that both Real Band and BIAB can generate MIDI parts just like they generate REAL TRACKS.

In BIAB some of the styles are RT styles, and some are MIDI styles. The MIDI styles generate MIDI tracks, and a MIDI track can be played thru any soft synth (Which is what GPO is)

That's step 1, knowing what is possible

Step 2 is knowing how to do it.

here's a link to the tutorial:
http://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_garritan.htm

I went through the tutorial using RealBand but was never able to get anything generated by RB. I could "play" using the virtual keyboard and hear the GPO4 sounds but could not figure how to get RB to generate accompaniment using GPO.

I'll try it again later starting from scratch! Thanks so much for your help and again I apologize for my ignorance as the whole MIDI and RB thing is completely new to me.

Ok. think I'm making a little progress! In RealBand I was able to generate a melody made up of GPO sounds!! And, I poped open that Piano Roll window and started moving notes around and...indeed there is a whole 'nother game to be learned here!

Apparently there is a whole lot of things I am missing or just unaware of in BB/RB as evidenced by reading this post....and some others.

Now the question is..... do I have the time and desire to dig in and learn how these aspects of the program work in order to incorporate this into my musical production?


Hummmmmmmmmmmmm...................

once a user gets past the low hanging fruit in the PGMusic programs (and there's a LOT of that!) it becomes evident that the product is an iceberg of potential, and much of it lies outside the realm of first glance.



The good news is that it's a cohesive system, and the stuff you don't use yet probably works just like the stuff you already use... so there may be far less of a learning curve than you think.

Also, let's face it: musicians love new gear. We buy it because it adds new performing or recording possibilities. This thread is an example of how a new soft synth can open doors of possibility. But a cheaper way to add new possibilities is to fully exploit the software you already own.

Based on your posts, Herb, I'd say you are a lifetime learner. You aren't content to stay in one place, you are a continuous improver. Once you establish the fact that you're always learning, It boils down to the question of what you will learn TODAY.

From a learning perspective, BIAB/RB are like the Readers Digest. You don't have to read a whole book, just read a condensed version. Pick one feature and mess with it. By playing you absorb knowledge without feeling like you invested time at all.

Good points......and yes, I have known pretty much since I first purchased the very first Band in a Box and started using it that there was so much more to this program than I would ever use on a daily basis.

The problem is..... finding the time...and yeah I know..... I have to MAKE the time.

to generate a MIDI track in Real Band:

1) pick a MIDI style in the style picker and make it the active style

2) Each track can be either a MIDI track or an AUDIO track... in order to generate MIDI, it obviously needs to be a MIDI track. In the LEFT pane of the track, Right click BELOW the track title (not ON it) and a menu appears. From this menu:
____a) make it a MIDI track
____b) assign a MIDI channel
____c) assign a specific VSTi/Dxi soft synth for the track
____d) use the patch select dialog to pick the patch

3) right click in the RIGHT pane of the track (where the music WAV appears in an audio track) and scroll down the pop-up menu until you find an option that says GENERATE MIDI

4) another pop-up menu will appear asking if you want to generate the BASS, DRUMS, PIANO, GUITAR or STRINGS track from that style. (Pick one)

once you pick the instrument you want to generate, RB will create the track from that style the same as it would if you generated a song in BIAB using that same style.

This is basically the same procedure used to generate:
- Real Tracks
- LOOPS
- MIDI SUpertracks (except the MIDI supertracks let you pick from a list, more like the way you pick a real track. Generating a non-supertrack MIDI track always uses the current style.)

However, you can change styles over and over again, generating new MIDI tracks each time. Given the number of MIDI styles (over 1,000!) with multiple instruments in each style, this feature makes ALL of the instruments in all of the styles available to RB!!

Very Powerful!

on my style picker there are 3,349 styles shown. Each style has 5 instruments
3,349 * 5 = 16,745 unique tracks that could be generated in RB

plus, all of those track have multiple generation possibilities. Assuming only 10 generation possibilities per track (which I'm sure is wayyy low), now we're looking at...

over 160,000 unique track generations!!

With more being added at every new version! If I never bought another piece of gear or software, what I already have could keep me busy for the rest of my life.

(But I'll probably buy more anyway.)

I forgot to mention that if you also generate the REAL CHART along with a REAL TRACK, you can send the MIDI data from the real chart to a soft synth. This is useful for adding pads to a guitar part.

Or, you can open the real chart in piano roll and move the notes around to create a MIDI harmony for the audio real track

welcome to the world of MIDI, John! You are embarking on a path that will dramatically increase the possibilities in your musical bag of tricks!

This forum has some of the smartest MIDI gurus I've encountered. SOMEBODY here will know the answer to any MIDI related question you can think up. You're in the right place to start learning about what MIDI can do. And its a very deep well.

THANK YOU SO MUCH PAT!!!!!! (but of course, I have loads of questions!!!)


1) pick a MIDI style in the style picker and make it the active style

How do I know what style to pick? What effect does this choice have on my final track? It seems to not matter what I pick as ultimately the track will be using the VSTi instrument sound anyway?


____c) assign a specific VSTi/Dxi soft synth for the track

This makes sense...now I am picking something from GPO


____d) use the patch select dialog to pick the patch

But what does this do? I already picked my sound so what am I doing here and what effect will it have on my final track?


3) right click in the RIGHT pane of the track (where the music WAV appears in an audio track) and scroll down the pop-up menu until you find an option that says GENERATE MIDI

I do not see that option...I see Generate MIDI Track with options to choose the Bass, Drums, Piano, etc. and when I select that it says "Can't generate on top of an existing BB MIDI track"

I tried Generate MIDI Solo and that worked but again I am puzzled as to why I am once again needing to choose from a list of 360 styles and it does not seem to matter what I choose for the final track sound!


I did get some tracks to generate but still do not understand why I need to pick all of those various styles when I have a specific VSTi instrument in mind.

It helps if you are familiar with the styles, because there's no way to demo the sound before you apply it to your song. (Wishlist item!) You can change the sound of the track with one of the GPO patches, but each of the midi styles generates its own distinct patterns. In other words, in a country style the generated notes will be different than in a track generated from a rock style or jazz style.

If you go to BIAB and apply a bunch of different styles to the same chords, you'll see what I mean. In fact, BIAB may be the best way to demo the styles to see which ones you want to add to your project


at that step, you will be picking from a list of soft synths, and in this case you'd pick the ARIA player because that's what drives the GPO sounds


good point. If you had picked a general MIDI soft synth such as coyote forte, you could pick the patch used in the current track as described here. But ARIA has its own way of assigning patches to a track... so in your case you wouldn't need to use the right click menu to pick the patch


that's the right menu item...



scroll down until the tracks change color and pick one of those tracks. The first few tracks are BB tracks and you can't generate MIDI on a track that has data or is reserved for BB


OK, start by asking yourself what genre your song will be in. If you're writing a country song and you need to add a piano track, then pick a country style and generate a midi track from the piano part



OK, lets say you want to add some of those excellent GPO strings to your song. Look thru the style picker for a style that would probably contain a string section. Classical and ballad styles typically have strings. Pick one of those styles and when you "generate midi track" pick STRINGS. RB will generate a track that will probably sound good with a GPO strings patch applied.

There is no rule for picking the right style to get the sound you want... you have to experiment and listen to a lot of the midi styles. You may want to write down the name of styles that have parts you like

Actually, here's what I would do if I were you:

1) start your project in BIAB. Demo many styles against your chords, and when you find a style you like save the project

2) open the same saved project in RealBand. Assign the MIDI tracks to GPO


by starting in BIAB you get the benefit of working with styles that contain tracks that work together very well. You don't have to search for something that works. You know right away what the song will sound like.

But when you open it in RB and assign the MIDI to GPO, it will sound a lot better than it did when you demoed it using coyote wavetable soft synth in BIAB

Pat, again THANK YOU so much! I really and truly appreciate your patience and assistance!!

is any of this working yet? Making sense?

Hi Pat!

So, I just finished playing with RealBand for a couple of hours. I started a new song...put in some chords...set up track one as MIDI #1, track 2 as MIDI #2, track three as MIDI #3...in GPO4 assigned channel 1 to be a Steinway Piano, channel 2 to be a flute, channel 3 to be a choir...generated each track...hit play and...WAS BLOWN AWAY at how cool this is!!!

Then I played around with the Piano Roll to adjust and edit my MIDI tracks and again...blown away at the power and what I can do! I also loaded up Reaper and found I really like their MIDI editor a lot better so maybe I can work back and forth or something!

I still have a ton of questions but I'll try and organize and post them in the forum soon.

Thank you again for your patience and kindness and knowledge!

-John

I have never heard anyone say that before.
First time for everything I guess

When you get your questions together it may be time to move the post to the Realband forum.
I almost missed this thread because it was in the BiaB forum.

thanks rharv...I'll start my new questions thread in RealBand!

regarding the Reaper MIDI editor I just found it to be way more intuitive. things like selecting notes, resizing them, adding, deleting, etc. all just worked like I expected whereas with RB I am still puzzling over how to do things. I figured out Reaper's quantizing right away as well as locking the grid to a key and other cool stuff I don't know if RB Piano Roll even does. or maybe it does more but I could not quickly figure it out.

Hi John, I have to admit that I haven't read all the replies on this matter, but yes the mod wheel acts as a volume level, and if you're planning on using GPO on live gigs this could pose a challenge, however I have found out that if you only want to use the GPO sounds to record a song if you set your volume levels of whatever instrument (strings or wind instruments)to 100%, even though the mod wheel in the GPO edit window does not show as to be affected at all by this, the recorded results are fine. The problem is you cannot "monitor" the recording because you cannot hear it. I have try it before without any problems as far as that is concern.
I hope this help.

Mike B.

Rhave, the latest version updates over the past months have been all "midi love". The developers have made a serious effort to bring the midi editor up to snuff. And I mean serious, just look at the change log over past couple weeks alone since the release of version 4.50:



Version 4.52:
◦ Actions: various actions better respect edit cursor in undo state
◦ Graphics performance: fixed high CPU use when displaying media items with many embedded cues
◦ MIDI editor: better cursor positioning on note edge clicks .
◦ MIDI editor: fixed scroll issues, improved play cursor behavior
◦ MIDI editor: track and channel selection available in both piano roll and event list view
◦ MIDI editor: fixed channel filter initializing incorrectly when loading projects
◦ MIDI: fixed pasting events into blank area of arrange view
◦ Metering: fixed track metering inaccuracies on looped playback
◦ Playback: fixed rare but possible increased memory use when changing loop selection during playback
◦ ReaPlugs: improved undo point notification for various controls
◦ Routing matrix: fixed scroll issue .
◦ Video: fixed audio decoding issue when using VLC decoder on files containing a 32bps audio stream

Version• 4.51:
◦ MIDI editor: dropdown box above keyboard area to select active track
◦ MIDI editor: better performance updating edits with lots of pooled items
◦ MIDI editor: improved source length editing behavior
◦ MIDI: faster creation of pooled midi items
◦ MIDI: fixed stuck note on looped playback introduced in 4.5
◦ Undo: reduced excess work/flicker when in an undo block

• MIDI editor: ◦ support for editing multiple MIDI items at the same time
◦ added track list and media item lane, filter window now filters only MIDI events, not media items
◦ track list and media item lane control which media item is active, which others are visible
◦ optionally preview all selected notes that start at the same time position
◦ optionally preview notes when editing or changing selection via keyboard action
◦ actions to activate next/previous item, visible item, or track, action to enable/disable relative snap
◦ added mouse modifiers to move/copy selected notes by dragging in the piano roll (no need to click the note again)
◦ added toolbar snap button context menu
◦ many bugfixes and performance improvements
◦ improved action to view raw MIDI data
◦ new cursors midi_noteedge_l, midi_noteedge_r, midi_stretch_l, midi_stretch_r
◦ save and load bank/program select files with tracks, rather than with individual MIDI takes
◦ stretch CC events when stretching a group of notes (when option enabled)
◦ support for 14-bit CC messages in piano roll and event list
◦ theme colors for out-of-bounds piano roll
◦ theme image for midi_item_bounds.png, table_remove_off, table_remove_on
◦ track list shift+click expands/collapses folders or track items
◦ track list has right-click menu option to choose which tracks to show/hide in track list

• JS: ◦ $xHEXCONSTANT now parsed same as 0xHEXCONSTANT, no conversion to 32 bit signed integer
◦ editor has improved non-english keyboard support, syntax highlighting, better resizing support
◦ _global.variable support, regXX alias to _global.regXX
◦ added atomic_setifequal(), atomic_exch(), atomic_add(), atomic_set() and atomic_get()
◦ improved behavior with fx that define input or output pins but not both
◦ invsqrt() now produces same results for negative inputs on x86-64 and x86/PPC

• MIDI: ◦ fixed chasing notes in certain instances .
◦ fixed multiproject hang bug .
◦ import SMF cues that are embedded in the tempo track
◦ optionally embed project markers as MIDI cues when exporting project MIDI
◦ optionally import embedded cues as project markers
◦ when playing back looped, improved sample-level rounding to avoid duplicate midi notes

• API: ◦ GetSetMediaTrackInfo with I_RECARM no longer generates undo points
◦ added GetTrackDepth function
◦ added functions to get media item track, parent tracks
◦ fixed DoActionShortcutDialog() not updating configuration files
◦ undo/redo cancels any pending undo blocks

• FX: ◦ Monitoring FX support - useful for analysis, room adjustment, or other non-project related processing
◦ fixed changing parameters via program change causing potential hang .
◦ safer UI updating when changing bypass/parameters via automation
◦ dropping FX on a track input fx, record arm, record mode, or record input will put FX on input chain
◦ input FX are now properly tracked by undo system

• ReaPlugs: ◦ ReaControlMIDI supports channel pressure messages
◦ improved use/calculation of constants throughout that might affect some win64/AMD systems
◦ fixed potential for crash in ReaFIR analysis code on incorrectly-sized windows
◦ safer ReaInsert audio device hooking

• Time signatures: ◦ improved beat-attached behavior when removing points .
◦ fixed adding editing markers at zero/negative measure counts
◦ improved adjusting media items when changing time signature denominator (related to change in 4.32)
◦ improved behavior moving/copying regions with time signature markers .

• Timestretch: ◦ fixed issues in 4.4x with playspeed envelopes and preserve pitch
◦ latest AVX-enabled Windows builds of Elastique
◦ fixed Elastique issue on some win64/AMD systems
◦ allow non-1.0 playrates that are very close to 1.0 .

• Undo: ◦ extensive optimizations and improvements
◦ avoid excessive state loading when undoing changes to track order/counts
◦ better reuse of undo buffers when changing track order/counts
◦ improved memory use, scan for common blocks in history when adding states
◦ incrementally updated RPP-UNDO files, can make for much faster save of undo history

• Windows: ◦ added WMA as supported file extension
◦ fixed CPU usage display working intermittently on systems with large uptimes
◦ installer better handles incorrect ReWire installation states
◦ topmost button activation tweaks (fixes for embedded bridged plugins and native plugins such as Kontakt)

• Actions: ◦ added set item name from active take filename
◦ fixed label for scroll view horizontally by page .

• Click source: ◦ better behavior when using pitch shifting/timestretch
◦ do not adjust click source rates when adjusting tempo

• Envelopes: ◦ better behavior with multiple points selected
◦ added actions to select various track envelopes

• Grid: ◦ better support for measure lengths that are not multiples of grid size .
◦ framerate grid/snap support

• OSX: ◦ PowerPC build has improved defaults for better performance
◦ fixed fx pin connector text
◦ localized audio device info menu support

• Project bay: ◦ better undo integration for speed/RAM use, faster undo state loading
◦ improved sorting for length, track, position with fallbacks .

• Recording: ◦ MIDI input mode with pdc-adjust respects loop end timing
◦ preserve PDC monitoring properly observes i/o latency for audio

• Stretch markers: ◦ action to remove stretch marker at current position
◦ actions to navigate to next/previous/nearest stretch marker
◦ guide indicators when moving

• VST: ◦ improved bridged embedded support for SE plug-ins (broken in 4.40)
◦ when mode set to not scan VST info, apply renames after updating plugins

• Autosave: configurable option for when to autosave (always, stopped, or not-recording)
• Directory cleanup: better media path resolving for freeze and project bay referenced files
• Dockers: improved autotransparency behavior
• Fades: splitting items with crossfade set will set both crossfade and default item fades .
• Marker/region manager: import/export csv properly supports commas/quotes (RFC 4180) .
• Metronome: Preferences/Audio setting to choose default output
• MTC: fixed hour-rounding issue with 25fps
• Pan: enabled overriding pan mode for the master track . .
• Performance meter: options to show/hide empty tracks/master track/Monitoring FX
• Project tabs: option to put project tabs on left edge of window rather than top
• Routing: reduced excessive volume/pan messages being sent via MIDI sends when stopped/looping
• Text rendering: fixed potential memory overflow bug, thanks JeffOS
• Track manager: fixed extra spaces being added when renaming child tracks
• Video: fixed file closing hang when using WMA files on Windows
• WavPack: fixed crash on reading invalid wrapper chunks

thanks Mike B.!

hey jazzmandan, what is funny is I was still using Reaper 4.4! but now that you mentioned it I upgraded to 4.52 to get even more MIDI goodness!