Hi Folks,

I'm trying to input this song into BIAB and struggling because it has bars of different lengths. I have tried every thing I know without success.
I know someone out there will remember this Nina Simone and Animals classic soul song - your assistance is much appreciated.

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

You can change the number of beats in a bar by selecting the bar and pressing F5 and changing the value. You cannot add beats, only remove them, so if you need a bar of 6/4, try having one bar of 2/4, then back to 4/4 on the following bar.

Hope this answers your question OK.

Hi,

Thanks - but it doesn't work!

In this song (Where you sing "Please don't let me be misunderstood") I need a bar of 4 beats and then a bar of 2 beats.
After the 2 beat bar the drums come back in OK but all the other instruments are delayed by a further 2 beats.
Then unbelievably in the subsequent bar all the instruments catch up!!!
Why don't you try it yourself? - I'm using a style called _RDHO_LS.STY

Any suggestions?

Thanks & Best Regards

I tried it myself. I created a song with 8 bars and 3 choruses using _RDHO_LS.STY
I set bar 5 to 2-beats and bar 6 to 4 beats. The song played through 3 times with 2 beats on bar 5 every time, and all instruments playing on every bar.

OK, here's a good place to start:
What version of BiaB do you have?
Do you have any frozen tracks?
Do you have any Holds on any bars (e.g. Eb...)?

I recreated VideoTrack's example and obtained the same results as he did. However, in past projects I have encountered issues similar to NigelSpiers when using F5 to mute, fade out, fade in, change and back to normal selections on tracks as well as with holds, rests and shots.

All of the F5 track selections responded fine and there were no issues. I found that when I placed F...bd in bar 4; It replicated NigelSpiers problem with all instruments back to playing on measure 7.


I have BIAB 2016 Windows with the latest build.

That's a great tune!
Any chance you would share it once completed?

Admins- not sure if sharing tunes is allowed?

Hi VideoTrack,

Thanks for reply.
I have latest last version of BIAB for Windows
No Frozen tracks
But I do have hold as below

Bar 1: Ab ("I'm just a soul who's")
Bar 2: Fm ("Intentions are good"
Bar 3: Db..D (this bar set to 2 beats as you suggested) ("Oh Lord")
Bar 4: No chord (this bar set to 4 beats as you suggested) ("please don't let me be misunder")
Bar 5: Fm ("stood")

Bar 5 is the problem - the bass guitar and organ don't come back in until the 3rd beat of this bar.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks & Best Regards

upload the version you have so we can look at it closer for you.

Hi Jazzmandan,

How do I attach the song in SGU format?

Best Regards

Dropbox .. or some similar service.

Yes, you need to upload to some web site\service and then provide the URL link to it. Or you can email to me at dan at jazzmandan dot com and I will do it for you.

Nigel,

This is worth a shot (not pun intended)...

I've found that if I use a 2-beat or 3-beat bar in a song, it's sometimes necessary to put a chord on beat 3 in the cell containing the 2-beat bar.

With this in mind, try adding a chord to beat 3 (and even beat 4) of bar 3. Just use a simple chord without shot/hold dots. These chords won't play but they seem to instruct BIAB somehow.

Regards,
Noel

I have attached the SGU BIAB file for the key parts of this song (it's not finished yet).

SGU file

The problems I have are:

1. Bars 17 & 33 - where for some odd reason the instruments only come in half way through the bar.

2. Bars 37, 38, 39 (in the song its the chorus with following lyrics: "If I seem edgy, I want you to know, that I never meant to take it out on you etc")where I need the Eb to come in earlier in a synchopated way. I've tried to put them on 4th beat of previous bar but that doesn't sound right either.

Nigel

Following on from Noel's suggestion I tried putting Db.d on the first beat of Bar 16. That way only the drums continued to play through bar 16 and all the instruments resumed on the first beat of bar 17. Hope this helps.

Nigel,

Definitely try the beats 3 and 4 (in the 2-beat bar) approach I mentioned. This will solve the "instruments coming in halfway through the bar" problem.

Have a look at my third post in this thread.

Noel

Noel,
I tried your suggestion with the file that Nigel posted. I put a chord on beat 3 (and later beat 4) in the 2 beat bar 15. All instruments resumed in bar 16 in both cases. And all instruments started correctly in bar 17 on beat 1.

However, I got the impression from Nigel's file that he only wanted the drums to play through bar 16.

Regards

Hi Richard,

Thanks for passing on the information. I didn't try Nigel's file and I could have easily missed something as I tend to scan through posts too quickly sometimes!

Your suggestion is a good one.

Regards,
Noel

Thanks Noel, Dan and Richard,

Much Appreciated.

Yes the phantom chords worked a treat thanks Noel.

Now all I've got to do is the syncopated Chorus:

Bars 37, 38, 39 (in the song its the chorus with following lyrics: "If I seem edgy, I want you to know, that I never meant to take it out on you etc") where I need the Eb to come in earlier in a syncopated way. I've tried to put it on the 4th beat of previous bar but that doesn't sound right either.

Any suggestions?

Best Regards
Nigel

I did put the Db..d at the third beat of bars 16 and 32 and all instruments resumed at beat one of bars 17 and 33.

This gives BIAB something to do and keeps the drum playing, although with a little emphasis on the third beat.

Addendum:

I believe I have figured this out.

The time sig is 4/4. That is what BIAB sees throughout the tune. At some point the time signature changes to 2/4, but BIAB still has the 4/4 in mind. When you change back to 4/4 BIAB is caught on the wrong foot and is out of sync with the tune until you give it a synchronisation trigger.

Put the Db..d on the first beat of the first 4/4 measure after the change to 2/4 and all seems to be good -- at least on my computer.

Yes... try putting ^ or ^^ in front of the chord on the first beat of the bar.

For example, if you have ^C on beat 1 of bar 10, it will play on the last eighth note of bar 9; that is, the chord is anticipated (pushed) by 1/8th note.

The ^^C entry will cause the chord to anticipated by 1/16th note.

Hi Noel,

Brilliant that worked also - thanks.

I note the drums and bass were pushed by an 1/8th OK but not the guitar and nor the organ. Does this mean I have to substitute a guitar and an organ patch playing in 16th time for this section of the song?

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

Would it be possible for you to send me the final sgu file via PM? I tried doing that song in BIAB myself, with very poor results. I'm not a "power user" like Noel, Trevor, et al. That song kills live (once people are well-lit).

Thanks.


Regards,

Bob

I tried the push also, but not all instruments responded, and I checked - they all are enabled for holds/rests/pushes/etc (at least my understanding of the RealTracks picker column).

So instead of a push on the "and" of the previous beat, you get a da-dit effect as some instruments play on the "and" and some on the beat.

Nice to see you guys have been busy working thru the night. This "collaborative" work on a shared file is one of the best ways to explore the intricacies of BIAB.

Carry On

Hi guys,

Thanks again Noel, John, Dan and Richard for your assistance.

365 people have now viewed this post and none have a solution to the remaining problem of most instruments not playing ^Eb correctly.

I have tried dozens of other Real Track instruments and no success.

I think it's time the moderators of this forum sent us all the solution.

Thanks for your help.

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

Which Realtracks don't support the push? Have you tried generating your song and then soloing each Realtrack in turn and seeing which behave properly and which don't?

It is possible that pushes are not supported by all Realtracks.

Regards,
Noel.

I think John already confirmed that the RT should be supported:
"...I tried the push also, but not all instruments responded, and I checked - they all are enabled for holds/rests/pushes/etc (at least my understanding of the RealTracks picker column)."

My suggestion is, can you simply mute the ones which miss the push. Bring them back in a bar later. A band don't always need every one on the mark - but you no need to avoid the "da-dit"!

Hi,

Yes I have tried soloing all the tracks - as mentioned previously the drums and bass Real Tracks are fine but the guitar and organ Real Tracks can't be pushed.

I have tried lots more Guitar and Organ Real Tracks and none of them support Pushes.

The whole song dies if you leave the organ and guitar out of this section so that is not an option.

I have also tried the HELD RT's and they don't support Pushes either.

Why are we all spending so much time on this issue when I assume the moderators already have the answer.?

Why don't the moderators help us out with the answer?

I'm sure we would all be most grateful.

Best Regards
Nigel

Truth is this is a "User Forum". The PG staff does at times weigh in but not too often. You need to send a message to Support and refer them to this thread.

Have you tried using a MIDI style to check what you're doing works. I think there are issues with real tracks not always doing what they advertise. I had a similar problem with shots & holds

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=343512

PG Music accepted this as a bug and hopefully will fix it. So do as jazzmandan says, send an email to support referencing this thread. They will be able to give you more information.

I haven't read the comments to this point other than to skim a few of them.

This song you're referring to is a difficult song to get BB to replicate due to the changes in the song. As I recall the song, there are timing changes from shorter measures and stops.

I'm thinking, this will be a hard song to do in BB but can easily be accomplished in MIDI with a good sequencer DAW. That's the direction I would go if I was trying to cover this song.

However, in BB, it is fairly easy to change measures from 4 beats to 2 beats and back again so, get a tempo map and have fun. The process will be frustrating but educational. So, yeah, have a go at it and let us know how it turns out.

Of course, keep in mind that BiaB is not designed and I understand was never intended to do direct 'covers' of other artists songs, the way karaoke does.

It's an excellent music backing, band substitution, band accompaniment, music just about 'anything' tool that does an absolutely outstanding job 99.9% of the time. It's a credit to its inventors, and not much else comes close.

Most users can almost always get a very acceptable result. There's always the 0.1% though.

The problem here is that the push is a claimed feature for these real tracks and it is not working as claimed. And it appears this was noted as a bug 4 months ago and has not been fixed.

I fully accept the limitations of the program in its effort to "create art". Some things were made to be done only by man. I get that. But squashing reported bugs is a vendors responsibility which in todays software market is expected by the users. The vendor can accept that responsibility or not and it disappoints when they chose - not.

I love the program as we all do... but not willing to drink the koolaid.

I definitely agree with you on that Dan. If it says it has a certain feature, well, it should deliver the described functionality of that feature.

Audio editing in a DAW....

or....

play those special things live.

Hi,

No response from BIAB support desk.

I have tried Midi instruments Andy - same problem as with Real Tracks - stutters.

I think you are right Herb - I will have to fix the errors manually in my DAW.

The only issue I have now is that the problems are mounting up - I now also find:

1. Soloists don't solo over bars with variable lengths.

2. I can't alter the number of bars per line in various places throughout the chord sheet. I have tried adjusting in the bar settings but nothing happens.

Any suggestions?

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

Are you sure that you have tried the midi instruments? If you have a Midi track loaded, the track name will be written in yellow and not in green.

The reason I ask this is because midi pushes work very well. Also the default settings in BIAB cause the program to automatically replace midi tracks with Realtracks.

Regards,
Noel

I have noticed that pushes and holds with organ RealTracks (B3 Background Pop) frequently do not work as I think they should. Low notes are emphasized and it makes it sound very different, sometimes unusable. As a result, I use pushes less often that I might otherwise and on a song's final held chord, I have to either mute the organ or reduce the volume.

I know I could generate the organ track without pushes or holds, freeze it, and then redo the chord sheet with pushes and regenerate the other tracks, but I prefer not to freeze tracks. I sometimes need to change keys and it's inconvenient with frozen tracks plus I enjoy the slight variations that naturally occur when tracks are not frozen.

By the way, this behavior did not just begin with the 2016 update; the B3 Background Pop RealTracks have always acted this way.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to get the results you want.

If you can't go in the front door, look for the back door or even an open window. (speaking metaphorically of course)

How's it's accomplished doesn't matter.... there are no rules here.... the important thing is the result.

Hi Folk,

The BIAB support staff are now having a look at this song and I'm hoping for at least some fixes or work-a-rounds from the experts which will allow me to finish it and send you all a copy of this iconic soul song.

Best Regards
Nigel Spiers

Great Nigel. We all hope you will have an excellent result. Keep us posted!

I completely agree. There are zillions of well known / reported b*** in the program, many of them have been there for years, many of them are really frustrating for a lot of users.

Addressing this problems should be the first priority for PGMusic, in my opinion.

Good News!

PG Music support desk were most helpful and solved two out of three of my problems i.e.

Soloing over Shot chords - it works fine - this was my mistake.

Starting new line in chord sheet on demand - again this works fine - my lack of knowledge.

Stutters in Chords with a Push - this does not work well and needs to be fixed in future release.

So - enough for me to get the song finished and then edit out the stutters in my DAW.

Thanks PG Music support staff.

Best Regards
Nigel

Great, and thanks for letting us know the progress. This will assist others someday.

Hi,

Just to clarify the "Push Problem" - today I rendered the tracks from BIAB for this song and assembled them in in my Reaper DAW.

I came to the bridge of this song which has the six pushed chords and found on further investigation that only the Real Drums in BIAB can push a chord using Real Tracks. The bass, guitar, piano and strings Real Tracks can't push any chords at all.

I can program around this in the DAW of course however I would be interested to know:

Is this functionality required by BIAB users on a regular basis?

If the answer is yes then is it practical or even technically possible for PG Music to include pushes in BIAB Real Tracks?

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

There's a great feature in Reaper called 'Stretch Markers'. With these, you'll easily be able to add your own pushes (or pulls) to a Realtrack. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty quick to do.

If you go to Youtube and then search for Reaper Stretch Markers, you'll be taken a few videos that will show how to do it.

Regards
Noel