I have to tell you folks - I purchased this software 3 or 4 years ago. I RETURNED it promptly because I hated the product. Couldn't stand it. It didn't do what I wanted it to do. I complained about the MP3 thing not working and how I was instructed to use a third party convert - yada yada yada ...

Well - I'm here to admit - I was a complete idiot! AND I'm so sorry for being so arrogant to the PG Music folks - All they were trying to do was to help me - and I was settled on the fact this software was lousy and poorly written.

ALL because I didn't give the software enough of a chance.

I repurchased 2018 - and ALMOST reverted, well, I did, to being arrogant, because the so called issues I STILL had - but - ALL user errors! And mostly, because I didn't know what I was doing.

So - I'm SOLD now on this product after learning how to:

- Change a style in the middle of a song
- Change tempos on a specific bar
- Understand Rests Silence Holds, Shots, etc.
- Be able to insert a RealTrack anywhere in a song
- Understand that RealTracks require at least 4 bars when ending a song
- Control + T - THANKS Joseph!
- Upgrade the product from 516 to 520 - Thanks Joseph!

There's a lot more to learn - but - folks! I've made 3 backing tracks so far and they really turned out AWESOME!

So - If you're new to this product - Give it an honest chance before you decide to think about giving up on it.

Maybe there are QWIRKS - but, I'm guessing there are workarounds.

Timbo

On the surface BIAB is pretty easy to use but once you delve into its real potential then the depth of the program comes through. At this stage you need to give it time to really understand how to get the best from the program. I truly believe that a huge number of people just don’t realise what an amazing resource has been developed by this program. I think some people are maybe put off off by the slightly dated look of the GUI. You need to look beyond that and to what the software delivers. Whether it is for song production, music education or just plain music enjoyment it offers so much.

Anyway glad that you gave BIAB another chance and keep in touch with this great forum as there are plenty of people happy to help.

Timbo

You and I both, and a lot of the folk who are veterans on the forum and on Biab.

They all had doubts and despair like us, then you read a post...and "no Way you can do that" !!!.


Away you go and learn even more then !! Same again. I don't know if this is for me ?, Then you read a post "No way....

Timbo,

Thank you heaps for taking the time to write your post.

I recently read your other posts where you were feeling frustrated with BIAB. It's terrific now to read that you've jumped that hurdle of frustration and are now moving into the realm of accomplished user.

Back in 2006 when I first got the program, because I wanted more control over my work than just entering chords and playing, I also experienced the BIAB learning curve early on. It is frustrating. Eventually things started falling into place. Today, I couldn't be without the program.

In case you're interested, the below webpage (for BIAB, Windows edition) contains a heap of PG Music video clips on various aspects of BIAB. It might come in useful and help with your journey of understanding the program.

http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.bbwin.htm


In my song writing, the Bar Settings and Chord Settings dialogue windows that you allude to are two of the most valuable sets of tools for me. They allow me a great deal of control over the final product.

Also, you are right, you will still come across quirks in BIAB but in most cases there are workarounds.

If you ever need help with something that doesn't seem to work correctly, let us know on the forum. There are good people here who will do their best to assist.

Regards,
Noel

• one of my songs: Summer Moon

I had the frustration and then the epiphany with BB. If you learn to do edits with notation and piano roll, it gets even better. Make sure to freeze and save!

I am going through it again with RB, although I am not sure I am going to have the epiphany with that program.

As far as the GUI, I really like it. Same thing for RB. I have been looking at other DAW's and I hate the gray/black look.

2b

Timbo, no need for me to say anything else but Thank-You for your persistence.

I have a saying: 'Everything is easy when you know how'. It works for Band In A Box too!

Enjoy making music

What a great post. It should be required reading. Thanks for taking time to post.

I am not a native English, so I have to use a dictionary for some parts of the article. But this article should really read every new or eternally dissatisfied user.

If it does not matter? I place a translation of this discussion on my Band-in-a-Box site

Carlos

Timbo.... yep... you got that right.

>Videotrack :Everything is easy when you know how

Trevor,

So true. An extension of this is “everything I know how to do seems easy to me”

As a guitar player, a grounding experience (for me) is to pick up the guitar and try to play left-handed. Suddenly you are a beginner again - unable to play barre chords etc.

@ST8KEEZ:

I apologize if I came on too strongly yesterday. It was like telling a parent that they have an ugly baby. To a parent, you are being very negative, rude, and unwelcome.

The 'warts' in any/all PG software is minuscule when compared to what it gives back.

It's wonderful to see how much you've grown and emotionally matured in just a few hours. Likely the result of how gently you have been welcomed.

Welcome to the best forum in this galaxy, maybe the universe.

Your offense toward me is completely forgiven and forgotten.

Now, make us some music!

There is so much wisdom here, I'm humbled. I'm pretty hopeless and so out of my depth when I read the posts, and realize just how little I know or even ubderstand. But still I have managed to produce a few tracks I can strum and sing along to. What a ball, it's amazing. I love it.

Most of us want instant gratification. We're impatient with the learning curve. I include myself in that.

But for many things, BiaB definitely included, once you get past the initial difficulties, new worlds open up to you, what was confusing is now easy, and there are so many more things you can do that you couldn't before.

Regarding the MP3 conversion you mentioned on your original post, I recommend CDex. It's open-source (free), easy to use, and has many more options to make your MP3 files sound better than most other apps I've used (including BiaB). I export to WAV and then use CDex to make mp3 files.

Insights and incites by Notes

Noel said:

If you ever need help with something that doesn't seem to work correctly, let us know on the forum. There are good people here who will do their best to assist.

Noel is generally among the first to throw out a lifeline to those of us in trouble. There are literally hundreds of users in the wings ready to help. We are a family and not competitors. Keep in mind that we were all in your shoes at one time!

I like the analogy of thinking of the program as learning an instrument from scratch, you can't expect to make good music until you master the basics and practice a whole lot first.

A thing I love about this group... you will never be flamed or criticized for asking a question. The only stupid question is the one never asked.

Soon, you will be sharing your knowledge with others newer than yourself. Like a part of the family.

Visit The User's Showcase to see/hear what others have done with BIAB.

Personally, I've used the software to write for three famed recording artists; two in Country and one in Folk genres. Recently, my modest tune "Canadian Limited" has been chosen as intro and theme by Country DJs in London and New Zealand.

My music is also being live-streamed on Scotland Hospital Radio, Sounds Of Scotland, several Canadian stations in the Maritime Provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. I owe it all to the genius of Dr. Peter Gannon and his wonderful crew.

Perhaps my greatest thrill was on a recent visit to the VA Hospital in Tulsa to hear my music played over the PA. That was just orchestrated by wonderful nurses and not a regular routine, but joyous nonetheless.

Canadian Limited:

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11561401

Over the many years I have been using BIAB (DOS, 3.
5" floppy days), I have introduced it to a goodly number of friends and relatives. After cautioning them about the inherent learning curve, I stress how easy it is to just get up and running:

- pick a song
- pick a style
- type in the chords
- hit PLAY

We "old time" users know how much, much more it can do and so I always offer my help if they get stuck on something. I'm certainly not an expert, but I can usually get them back up and running.

What I've wished for (and I understand it's totally unrealistic), is for PGMusic to ship out with every NEW sale, a short note, emphasizing their Support people and this Forum, if frustration creeps into their enjoyment of BIAB.

Just a little, "we know it can be overwhelming, but there's help available and we think you'll be happy in the end".

What I've discovered is that much of the "weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth" from new users, stems from either not knowing or not stating, what they want to accomplish. If they just want a simple track to practice to, there's no need to get bogged down in the nitty-gritty, inner workings of RealTracks, or VSTIs or 64 bit emulators.

Thanks to the OP for the post.
Thanks to PGMusic and their support team.
And most of all, thanks to all you Forum members, ready and eager to help!

LLOYD S

how about a readMe First rft doc included with the download & hd with a live link to the forum with loyd's "we know it can be overwhelming, but there's help available and we think you'll be happy in the end"

in biab&rb replace the view video button with a forum link button

Split the suggestion in two and place the suggestions in the Band-in-a-Box and RealBand wish list forum sections and I'll add my +1 support for the suggestions. It's a great idea!

Timbo,
I too re-imagined BIAB but a bit differently.
One forum member changed my focal perspective on BIAB. My initial concerns are still present. I feel that program does not have some very basic things it should have and some things that are present are just not "human friendly". But I realized I can avoid many of those things by using more DAW and not rely on things that bother me in BIAB. The "workaround" you mentioned

One of things that kept me going until I realized potential for my songs using BIAB is community. Many people here are very helpful and knowledgeable. Plus I like the idea that program united musicians of whole spectrum of genres and interests.

I know, BIAB will occupy me for at least a few years (hopefully longer) as I do not give up easily, but my sincere hope is that PG focuses more on interface and "snappiness" so it becomes a more pleasant to use program within first quarter of 21st century

P.S. Once I had a 14 year old website with a lot of custom code that had to be re-written to modern standards. I kept on using it, telling myself that it is ok, as long as it works. It was breaking and I had to find people fast who could fix it.... They did not like doing archaeology work. The point that I am trying to make is this. As soon as I finally said, ENOUGH! and re-done
14 years of programming soup to something much more cleaner, faster and easier to fix and redesign, I felt great. About myself, about the site and about the future of it. I hope similar snap would come to BIAB.

Best regards,
Mike.

I just recommended this really worth reading thread to a frustrated user in the German Forum.

Yes, the "german frustrated user" is me and in some case I find myself in the posts and replies here. Difference is, I was a user "first hours" back in the late eightees, where the program was really "simple", but seemed to be better than a these times usual organaccompaniment or simple drum"computer" wich I hated.( I had an TTR 100 Hammond and turned the pots of the "druminstruments" to their "origin", say "white noise" or so,which led me later to a few drumsymulators, one of `m the Simmons SDS 3, I still own with proud, as I am in "electronic music" and this is a 4 voice synth in real, wich was never "frustrating"- ok, it`s not programmable and refinding a sound once used is- was- frustrating these times, as was on the moogs a. s. o.
Now I`m back on BIAB as I was lucky to get a real bargain ultrapak 2016 and, yes, it`s much different to DAW`s like Cubase I used the last years. This is not frustrating but hard to switch between both worlds, as realising the snippets of real instruments are different to midiinstruments and not "changeable", also it seems to be, as they follow the chords a.s.o. in the songs one makes. Frustrating may be finding the real or best style to a "playback" you want to generate, as f.ex. "country roads" which I found these days between all these "jazz". Also it may seem to be frustrating, to often read back in the "helps" while in a creative phase. Thats when I change to the forums and try to ask!

Hi sac.
I was frustrated by workflow in BIAB too, until I understood what to expect from it and what I can accomplish better in other software.
Not sure if it will help you, but this is what helped me:

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=71955&Number=495667#Post495667

Read posts of member: dcuny
(Thank you David!)

Best regards,
M.

Thank you for your reply. It didn`t "help" really, but I feel I`m not alone with it. Also I read your "statement": "I stepped out of song writing for several years, now trying to get back the "lost years"........."
this is similiar to me. I wouldn`t say the lost years, as I was raising my kids and working a lot, to make the living and now I am in retiring and awaiting the going home, I pick my songs from then and try to leave something to my loved ones. There`s not much left, but maybe it will help me get out of the shadows........

sac,

Well, I guess the best approach for you would be to think what you want to accomplish, write it down and ask for an opinion in Beginners Forum section.
If it is achievable with BIAB I am sure somebody will try to help or at least point you in the direction of how it might work.

One of the biggest challenges for me was to make BIAB a part of the workflow I am familiar with. I passed that stage and fairly comfortable in getting BIAB do things that I need. Again, there are plenty of little things that bother me in BIAB, but I will not let them interfere with my "creative" time.

P.S. About the lost years... I hope you understand, it was a joke. What I meant it is like a bicycle, once you leave it for a few years, it gets rusty (see my nick by avatar:) I am regaining a lot of former knowledge and learning a lot of new things. It is fun stuff. My suggestion to you... Just try to do something. If it does not work, try it again. And if you get lost, this community is great and I am sure you will find help.

I appreciate this very much, thanks for the "headup" words. The thing is, I`m not a native english speaker and a lot of terms in the vid`s and hints I don`t understand, so there`s two things to go over. I`ll be back, I`m sure.

Sac,
Actually only couple of days ago PG music announced that they can make a custom video for customers if you ask them:

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=498822&an=1#Post498822

I am sure if you ask them not to rush and explain plainly a few specific things you need to know, they will probably do it.

Myself, I started with this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGvnE1HNqo&t=876s

It is easy to understand and Joanne is explaining things from perspective of song writer.

Best regards,
Misha.

Sac,

What is your native language? There are many other language forums beside English. Scroll through the to the bottom of the "Forum List" to see what other languages are available. Many users here would be very happy to use Google Translate for you if we only knew what language that you prefer.