The answer to this question may be way over my head...lol

I have read that early composers considered this to be true. This question came to mind because of the number of demo songs in BB that are in E flat. Yes I am aware I can change the key.

I can play guitar without issue in any key but E flat is not very common for Pop music. So is this only true in regard to classical music? Whats up with E flat?

Cheers,

Billy

Hi Billy,

What a great question!

Here's my take on it...

Eb major is a comfortable key for piano. Because of this, during the Tin Pan Alley period (approx. 1920 - mid-1950), when piano was a highly popular solo instrument, Eb major was a pretty popular key signature. Since many songs from this period became jazz standards, Eb major thus became easily found as a key signature. I think that many of PG Music's early demos would have been created by musicians with jazz as part of their background.

In the days of classical music, a couple of things should be noted. One is that concert pitch was not always defined as A=440 Hz like it is today. Sometimes, it was sharper and sometimes flatter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

This means, that a song heard today in the key of C major would not sound the same as a song played a couple of hundred years ago in C major.

The second thing that should be noted is that the equal temperament tuning system that we have today was not always used as a standard tuning system. "Equal temperament" means each neighbouring note across the range of musical notes has the same fundamental relationship with one another (this is related to the 12th root of 2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Bach, in fact, wrote his "Well tempered clavier" works to demonstrate that equal temperament was a viable tuning technique and better suited to many keys. Prior to equal temperament, one of the major systems was "Just Intonation" which was based on particular intervals like 4ths, 5ths and octaves having a 'perfect' sonic relationship in that they could be expressed in whole numbers. This is a Pythagorean tuning system. By comparison, the only sonic relationship that can be expressed in whole numbers in equal temperament is the octave. The "Just intonation" tuning system was only good for key signatures that had less than two or three sharps or flats.

So... while keys in flats and keys in sharps might have respectively stimulated sad and happy characteristics in past times when tuning systems were not standardised, I believe that that kind of sonic impact is much less today.

Whenever I change keys in BIAB, all I hear is the same music played at higher and lower pitches. I personally have not noticed that I experience any substantial emotional impact from the different keys. The emotional impact for me comes from whether major, minor or modal keys are used.

Just my two cents worth...

Regards,
Noel

Well i always thought Eb, Bb and F and the relative minors were popular because of brass instruments, and Clarinet LoL. Unless you own a C melody sax. IMO E is a nice one for 3 chorder guitar like 'standard' E-A-B7 blues stuff, D, A and G for fiddle, mandolin etc. Bluegrass singers with them frigging capos at 4 like B ...... F

Thanks Noel,

That was a pretty cool run down and historical perspective on E Flat.

I find that certain modern popular songs I play sound different to me in different keys. I suspect that I learned the songs by coping the original artist in the original key and anything different than that just does not sound right to me.

Obviously there are slight differences in the way any certain group of notes would sound in different keys but that is not much of a big deal in equal temperament tuning.

I sometimes am ask to play something in another key to accommodate the vocalist or perhaps the horn players would prefer to play in B flat than A for example.

Not having any formal training and really only playing guitar key signature is of little issue in general. If the things gets changed from C to C# I certainly don't start thinking OMG now I have 7 sharps to deal with...lol Move the pattern up one fret and your good to go.

If I am writing an original song my main considerations are is it going to be major or minor and is it in a place on the guitar that is easy to get to and can I sing in that key. And yes I pay attention to the modes for melody construction. So...as you can see, I would most likely be barred from even driving on the same street as Juilliard is located on...lol

Thank you very much for the history lesson!!

Cheers,

Billy

Yes, guitar makes very easy work of transposing. It's not so straightforward on piano (or a number of other instruments for that matter).

That could certainly be the case. My knowledge doesn't extend to these instruments. But it was the era of the big band so it makes sense.

If a piano plays in the key of Eb, though, Bb instruments would transpose to F and Eb instruments would transpose to C. It seems that Eb concert pitch could be useful here, too.

Transposing...yes it is the one and only thing that is easy to do on guitar...lol

On the other hand, I think sight reading is a bit less difficult on piano than guitar.

Yes, I have a piano but I have little idea how to play it. None the less it has been very useful in learning music theory. I did learn how to play happy birthday but it may be a while before I get a handle on Golliwogs Cakewalk...lol

Truth is, nothing is difficult after one has diligently studied and consistently played every day, seven days a week, and reached the 10,000 hour mark...lol

Cheers M8

One remark .. i played a just tuned (by the expert tuner and maker Marc Savoy) Cajun melodeon at a studio gig. The professional Classically trained pianist and studio owner kept saying: that thing is out of tune. Must be suffering from brain des(in)formation through years of playing his 'wrongly' tuned weltempered piano.

Professional disoriented hearing. Also why fretless instruments like violins, ouds, etc sound so much better, as the players intonate themselves according key and intonality.

Back in the early days of Midi i was teaching a Midi course at a technical university. We invited a wizzkid nerd into Midi, who demonstrated his Midi strings software that was correcting the 'proper' intonation to a more palatable type by correcting f.i. 3rds 6ths and 7ths automatically sort of according to key played. His classical midi files sounded a lot better, with hardware like Ensoniq had back then, capable of fine tuning pitch via polyphonic aftertouch. Still have two Ensoniq items capable of that. But i must confess, i am too lazy, and not much more into filmmusic scoring. And i wonder if all those modern software VSTs are capable of doing that, unless you give each note it's own midi channel and pitch bend instructions. Done that with Cubase's logical editor in the past. Tons of work.

From the viewpoint of a horn player, the keys a guitarist wants to choose are usually harder for two reasons: because we on transposing instruments have to play in more difficult key signatures, and because we are more likely to have to overcome intonation problems inherent in horns.

For example, the key of concert E is F# for me on a Bb trumpet. It’s C# for an Eb alto sax. Both are keys most horn players will admit they find to be harder than C, F and G

And then there is intonation.

Trumpets and saxes are one enormous compromise when it comes to pitch. On all trumpets, regardless of key, the low D and C# below the staff are WAY sharp and have to be adjusted by a short slide. If you were to write something featuring a trumpet, you would want to avoid featuring those notes. Similarly, the E at the top of the staff is usually flat for most trumpets. On some songs, I use alternate fingering and my tuning slide to make it better, but using a tiny trumpet tuning slide is a gamble every time.

This is way too much detail for most of you but it may give you a sense of how brass players think. There’s dozens more examples like the ones I gave. The better you play, the more these subtleties are important. Guitarists, if you had a nut in the wrong place, and every time you played a note it was “off”, you’d take it in for repair. But we can’t.

Being that I've played in guitar bands ever since I was in junior high school, I actually prefer E/F# (Concert/Tenor Sax) and A/B to the piano keys of Bb/C and Eb/F.

My fingers are more comfortable in the sharp keys, simply because I have thousands more hours in sharp keys.

I suppose if I cut my musical teeth in piano based or swing band based groups, I'd like Bb and Eb better.

Playing sax, flute, keys, brass and many other instruments, transposing even a half step requires entirely different fingerings. It's like learning the song all over again from scratch. So when I started playing guitar and we modulated up a half step, all I had to do was move my and up one fret and use the exact same fingering. WOW! Wanna modulate again? And again?

Matt mentioned intonation on brass and woodwind instruments. No sax is in tune with itself. Each note has to be adjusted with lip pressure on the reed and the players ears.

When I get a new sax, the first thing I do is sit with a tuner and play every note on the sax (long tones) and see which ones play sharp and which ones play flat. Doing this a while will automatically put my lip in the right direction and my ears will tell me how much.

Modern saxes seem to be better at intonation than older ones. I guess computer design, human refinement, or better manufacturing techniques have contributed to that.

The worst sax I've had for intonation is a silver plated 1925 King Alto. But it has the voice of an angel, so I keep it around. The second worst one I've ever owned was the legendary Selmer Mark VI (which I bought new in 1959 or 1960). The VI to sax players is worshiped like a very early Les Paul or Fender Broadcaster - worth a lot of money. Mostly because the VII wasn't as good (the intonation was better but the tone was worse).

My 9 year old, custom built MacSax and a used Yamaha YTS-52 I just picked up have the best relative intonation of all the saxes I've owned (saxes are expensive so I haven't owned nearly enough <wink/grin>). My VII, Couf Superba and Grassi Prestige are newer designs than the VI and have better intonation too.

I have a relative who has absolute pitch, and he says some keys sound brighter, others darker, and it has nothing to do with whether it's a sharp key or a flat key.

We transpose songs to fit our vocal range. If possible we try to do it in 'record key' but it's better to change the key if you can't do a good job in the record key. Changing keys and just listening to the backing tracks I create myself we've noticed that sometimes a half step difference makes a difference in how bright or dark the song sounds. I've never taken the time to log which keys sound brighter or darker, and also don't know if it's song-specific or not.

So doing the backing tracks in MIDI where I can change the key to whatever I want without artifacts and with a few clicks of the mouse helps a lot when learning new songs. I can get the song in the optimum key for the singer and move it a half step or so for the listener.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes said it better what I was trying to convey: each horn is not in tune with itself. Well put.

I also have a Mark VI tenor , this one a 1973. I and others think the intonation is quite good. I wish I could still hold it or I wouldn’t be selling it. Most newer saxes I’ve played are better intonation, worse tone just like Notes said.

I think in today's world most good guitar players feel pretty lucky to get to play with horn players. Well, in the local bars and smaller music venues at least.
I at least do. There is something to be said for a three piece ZZ Top type of band but for me having a horn section opens a whole new world of possibilities.

In fact, first thing I do when a horn player comes on stage is to ask what key they would prefer to play in. If we can make that fly with the vocalist why not!!

Why would anyone not consider the issues of other people on stage? Perhaps some just don't know and I guess we have all been around our share of people who just don't care.

The first consideration is the vocalist generally. If things are really uncomfortable between the horn section and the vocalist or the keyboards, just find another song.

I had a sax player friend who I ask "what key would you like" and he always said just play as you like. I can play in any key. Some people are a dream to work with!!

And Matt, there is never to much detail. As a guitar player I how would I ever know what horn players have to deal with unless someone tells me!!

Cheers,

Billy

Billy, thanks.

I would never ask the band to change the key. I should be able to play well enough in any key. Part of being a pro. And I expect a singer might request anything. But if a horn player tells you it completely doesn’t matter, they are either lying or not good enough to know what they don’t know. I said above I should be able to play “well enough” in any key. That doesn’t mean perfectly the same. I’m not sure such a person exists. My standard is to do it well enough that you won’t know whether it’s a good key for me or not.

I choose flat keys to just get away from playing in the same old keys. It's a sonic difference but not sure why. Also as a bass player the key can mess up the bass line. An example; I play a 5 string bass. If I play in Eb I loose the ability to use the Low B as my 5. BTW that's 5 maj.lol

I'm not sure about brighter or more melancholy, but there is a difference. I think it also boils down to the style.

Pop/Rock music tends to largely be written in keys like D, E, F, A etc. Maybe that's because those composers come from guitar background.

Jazz (and Latin) often sits perfectly in keys like Bb, Eb, Ab.

My own taste is to give me Eb any day. It's rich and warm.

When it comes to more melancholy or somber I thought that is what writing in minor keys was all about. Not so much writing in flats and sharps but minor keys and diminished etc being sadder than majors.

Tony

maybe it applies playing live with real instruments but with BIAB I don't think a song generated in F would sound any different (apart from lower in pitch!) if transposed down to Eb

anyone tried it?

I would think a Bb would sound very, very similar to an A#. To me they sound exactly the same. If I was to play them on a guitar I would have my fingers in the same places. (Where does this come from)

Tony

I think finding the key for the vocalist is the most important thing in any band.

Good horn players should be able to play in any key. Of course, there are familiar keys I'm more comfortable playing in, and some that rarely cross my path, but I'll consider a non common key an opportunity to become more comfortable in that key.

I've been in groups with good singers who after finding their optimum key will ask if moving it a half step would make it easier for the musicians. That tells me the singer is a real pro.

But sometimes a half step difference makes the song sound weird, and I think that's what OP is talking about. Good musicians should realize this and not move from an awkward key to a comfortable key if the end product suffers.

I also prefer singers to know enough basic music theory to be able to converse with other musicians in the common language of music.

And yes, minor keys sound darker. I reject the sadder definition because some minor key songs are way too beautiful to be even remotely considered as sad. Tchaikovsky's "Romeo & Juliet" which I just heard in concert is an absolutely beautiful piece of music. At times it is exhilarating, yet it is done predominantly if not completely in minor keys (as most of Tchaikovsky's music is).

And Matt, I am glad your VI has good intonation. It seems that Selmer may have steadily improved the design or manufacturing techniques.

When I bought my VI, I tried 3 in the store (yes, a store in Miami actually 3) in front of a strobe tuner and picked the one with the best intonation. This was at the advice of my band director. When I traded my VI for the VII the intonation was quite good, the tone decent but not flexible, which is why I fell in love with the Couf Superba. It had what I considered better tone and intonation than the VI. But tone is subjective, as noted. Getz and Trane both played VI's and sounded very, very different.

Insights and incites by Notes

All my comments about key are based on what I consider Pop music being defined as Rock, blues, country....stuff you generally hear on the radio.

I always considered Ab, Bb, and Eb to be horn keys. That assumption could very well have always been incorrect. I also associated those keys with jazz style music for the most part. There are exceptions. A famous blues tune called "Okie Dokie Stomp" made famous by Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown and written in E flat by Pluma Davis a trumpet player comes to mind.

Whereas C major and major keys in general always seemed to be associated with a happy fun style in whatever genres, but that was not always true.

The minor keys were in my mind were thought to be more related to sadder or more serious subject matter but again not always.

The emotional context of a song has many components and the lyrical content is most likely to be the biggest component. If for example the lyrics said " I just won a million bucks and I am jumping for joy" A minor, fiddle, and steel pedal guitar would be a very strange key and arrangement of instruments to express that idea!!

There are guitar based songs that simply can not be played in any other key than the original and really sound like the original. I am mostly talking about songs from electric blues players like Muddy Waters or John Lee Hooker. Most of that style is played in E major and the low E note on the guitar plays a dominant roll in the style. Similar things can occur with finger style guitar with quarter notes played on the open E or open A string. Certain ZZ Top songs only work in the original key.

I just tried an experiment on the piano. I played a 1/4/5 in C major and in F major and G major using triplets. They all sound very different to me but I find it hard or impossible to define the difference in terms of brighter or melancholy. When I have time today perhaps I will try the same experiment with vocal lines that contain sad or melancholy lyrics or happy and joyful lyrics. Then repeat the experiment in Db and B. I guess we would have to come to an agreed upon meaning to the words brighter and melancholy as it relates to sound....most likely not so easy to do...lol This is the kind of stuff that happens when you give a old retired guy a computer and a piano...lol...lol

Cheers,

Billy

Edit: I "ASSUME" that E flat is an easy key for a trumpet player and most likely why "Okie Dokie Stomp" was written in Eb to begin with.

I think all of these factors play a part, but what I would like to know is the following

Under equal tempreament, each note ilt ls a compromise, or at least most of them. They can vary by different percentages. I think this may well have an effect on the 'darkness' of a key too. I don't know any source that I could use to compare though, least not one I could understand
Z

Hi Z,

Yes, I get what you are talking about. I have dug into this subject a bit in the past. The complexity of the math and the physic of sound was enough to stop me from putting the effort to completely understand the precise relationships.

I started to explain what I think I know, then thought better of it. This is a link to a pretty good explanation but be prepared to put on your math hat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

Even Better some stuff from UC Berkeley...you might know someone from California would get in the middle of all this...lol

https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/eecs20/week8/scale.html


What I wanted to do is find the exact frequency of all notes in a short piece of music in e major and transpose to a flat and compare the two to see if there was any difference in the frequency relationship of the intervals. If that makes any sense to anyone including me...lol

The problem with all this conversation about sound is the vague examples we use to try to communicate. We would most like never agree on exactly what "happy" sounds like but we can more easily agree on what different intervals sound like.

A new Samsung 1/2 TB USB SSB drive was just delivered by FedX so I need to go play with my new toy!! Damn! this thing is tiny.

Cheers,

Billy

That is exactly how I see it. I choose a key based on my ability to sing my part.

That my friends is what keys are all about. If the singer and/or lead instrument can not sing/play in the chosen key then the band will suck. In other words the key is determined by the lead singer/instrument.

Amen

Great discussion on this. I remember reading a fascinating article about "Equal temperament" and "Just Intonation". Noel really explained that nicely.

Years ago, when I played a lot of trumpet, I would write songs/arrangements in "standard" band keys. These keys would make playing easier on trumpets, bones, saxes, etc...

Now that I'm a vocalist/guitar player, I rarely think about what key I write in. Whatever key fits me and my wife's vocal range is what I shoot for. Even then, sometimes going up or down a half-step can make a big difference in how a song feels.

After a good bit experimenting with my digital piano, I just can not find a really noticeable difference in playing in C or C# or ab and E. I also checked to see if I could tell any difference if I played in a key or used the transpose button. There was none that I could hear.

On an electronic keyboard whether or not something is in a flat key or sharp key does not seem to make any difference even with two very different vocals with different lyrical context. Point being, a dark angry vocal does not seem to change in a flat key or sharp key.

I don't know how this experiment would be with other instruments.

If I understand equal temperament correctly the ratio is the same for every note.

Psychoacoustics is the study of how humans hear sounds. I am not even sure I can spell that...lol...so I am sure I have very little knowledge of the science.

This idea of "brighter" or "melancholy" may very well be a hold over from the conditions that Noel talked about in his post. I don't think it is accurate in today's world of equal temperament. I also think we all tend to use words that are in essence meaningless to describe something. Meaningless because ask a hundred people to define what they mean and you get a hundred different answers.Go ask a 100 people what freedom means!!

I certainly agree with Rich that moving the key up or down on the guitar can make a noticeable difference. Some songs just sound better in certain keys to me.

Cheers,

Billy

I only assume that Beethoven meant for String Quartet no. 14, 1st movement to be the very definitions of "melancholy" well...he wrote it in C# minor not Cb minor.

I rest my case...lol...lol

Cheers,

Billy

You can thank Bill Monroe with his high lonesome tenor for the songs in B--5 sharps! Yikes.

A,E,D with a capo on the second fret..........gives you five sharps with three chords and three fingers

To the guy that said A# sounds like Bb well there is no key of A#. The only sharp key with a # in it's name is F#. Sorry.
How important the actual bass line is is also a factor in choosing the key.

Well, there is also C#, but rather than play in seven sharps, most people would probably choose the five flats of Db.

[F# or Gb is a coin flip of either six sharps or six flats, respectively.]

A little bit difficult on my grand piano !

OK Matt for my education. Circle of 5ths. C no sharps or flats,G,D,A,E,B,F#/Gb,.Isn't this really the end of the sharp keys? Then it's Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C

Once again stage lingo for me. Calling out keys to a song.
Closed fist = C
1 finger up = G
2 up = D
etc.
1 down = F
2 down = Bb
etc.

No, you could go one step further and some Circle of Fifths diagrams will continue one step to show 7 sharps (and seven flats). A few then venture into double sharps or double flats, but by then my eyes glaze over!

My circle of fifth chart hanging on the wall in front of me shows C# and Cb off to one side at the bottom...seven sharps or seven flats. I have seen double sharps and flats but only with really dark sun glasses on...lol

I use to play with an old blues piano player who played everything in C#. He was a nice guy and a friend of mine. I was playing guitar so it was no big deal for me.

When I ask Walter one day why he played everything in C# he said "Billy, I am a black man and I play on the black keys". I did not pursue the conversation any further as his answer made perfect sense to me!!

I guess there are some things that just don't come in the classical training manual...lol

Cheers,

Billy

Actually there is a key of A#:

https://www.basicmusictheory.com/a-sharp-major-key-signature

But give me Bb any time!

Interesting subject.

Do you all know "The Signature Series" by Paolo Pietropaolo?. Here's about Eb major:

https://soundcloud.com/thesignatureseries/e-flat-major

Will

Yes, I agree. I already knew that Eb is way up there.

I played with a blind pianist who said the more sharps or flats, the better, because he could feel the keys better.

Because I come across these keys so infrequently, anything with a double sharp or double flat would be a cause for a slight pause if sight-reading.

Matt, when modulating a half step up from C I think C#, but if reading I'd choose Db. And for me F# is definitely easier to read than Gb -- all those years playing with guitarists who like E did that for me.

To get back on topic, I think if anyone feels that flat keys sound duller than sharp keys or sharp keys sound brighter than flat keys, it's a preconceived notion and their brain makes it so.

But then again, perhaps it's my brain that refuses to accept such a notion

Insights and incites by Notes

A long thread so haven't read it all. My personal opinions is, there is no difference, a lot of us wouldn't even know whether it was a sharp or flat key without an instrument to find the key on.

On the other hand along the same lines, I do believe that certain songs or tunes sometimes sound best in a certain key, probably due to the fact where the melody falls within a scale range, for a song probably takes the vocals of singer into consideration, and for the tunes the instruments play a big part.

There are obviously highly skilled musicians who have little to no understand of music theory. Those musicians are going to play in keys that are easy for "them" to play in for the most part. Many times I have noticed old blues piano players play chords mostly in the root position. Also I have seen them play in what most of us would consider strange or difficult keys.

The last fifty years has been dominated by guitar based music. The guitar like any instrument has things that are easy to do in some keys and hard or next to impossible to do in other keys.

There are many guitar players that can sight read, but that skill is not very common.

There has been a tremendous influence from blues music across the board but in particularly in guitar music. Some of the reason for for guitar players playing in E has less to do with liking that key that copying the blues players of the past.

Having read and considered all these post, and doing some experiments, I have come to the conclusion that sharp or flat keys can not be related to "Bright" or "Melancholy"
feel in today's world of equal temperament.

One of the things that we did not address in this thread was "your" definition of "bright" and "melancholy".

To me bright means treble boost, in the 8,000 kHz - 10,000 kHz range or compression which can have the same effect in that frequency range. From an emotional prospective bright means to "me" happy, fun, content, buoyant, and several other adjectives.

Melancholy does not bring to mind a certain frequency for me. Melancholy brings to "my" mind a emotional condition of pensiveness, sadness, reflection of sadness from past events or sadness for no apparent reason.

Cheers,

Billy