Hi Compadres. Stupid Q: Soloist track, selected a direct input pedalsteel. I cannot find where to set the audio level, as it's really low in the mix. I guess it's to do with some hidden track setting somewhere, as other RTs also are low in level. Exporting via AUDIO export and normalizing gives a 'normal' healthy level. F

fiddler,

Some demo songs have track volume levels set in the style. Then, if another Realtrack is used to replace one of the tracks that has been volume adjusted, that new Realtrack is affected by the volume adjustment.

That sounds like it could be what has happened here. Have a look at the below thread and see if that helps. Although the thread is applied to the "Strings" track, just replace "Strings" with the track that your soloist is on.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=520674#Post520674

Regards,
Noel

I don't think it applies here, it's the soloist track .. but i'll have a look. thnx

The soloist track also has volume control in stylemaker (just like the strings track).

Hi Noel. Nothing strange in the stylemaker:

Hi Fiddler,

Did you assign Amplitube, or some other amp simulator plugin to that track? The "Direct Input" RealTracks are quieter than the regular versions, as they're recorded dry, and are intended to be boosted by Amplitube.

If you're not assigning Amplitube to that track, I wouldn't recommend using the Direct Input version of that pedal steel. The regular version is much louder.

Thanks
Kent
PG Music

Hello Kent. Nope, no Amplitude, no other plugins, and i don't like prerecorded FX very much; usually they are in the way and throw too much mud in a mix. I will shop for other versions then, but the only Paul Franklin RTs ara all Direct input ones ... F

PS i loaded one of the RT Direct Input version (1669) WAVs i needed in Wavelab, directly from its RT Direct Input folder. The level is REDICULOUSLY LOW, some - 18dB. Please notify the responsible programmers: IMO this is really un-acceptable, and needs to be re edited/fixed from the original recordings. I would eagerly await a serious RT AP update regarding these. I cannot do it myself, as the noise level would be increasing too much. These versions are useless ... See picture 1.

I don't like Amplitube very much and only like to use the Pedal Steel recordings barebone, but for now i will use the 'normal version' instead. thnx, F

PS i wonder how many other Direct Input RTs are treated the same way and thus more or less 'malfunctioning' as such?
FOR COMPARISON: Picture 2 is from one normal non Direct Input and FX-ed (? as it sounds quite clean ?) version for comparison; looks completely healthy ...

It sounds like you're using a DI track in a manner that is not it's intended use. Any instrument that is deliberately recorded dry is supposed to be used with effects added later in post production. An effects unit will drastically boost the gain whether it's a software emulation like Amplitube or you run the audio out to a hardware unit. If a DI track was recorded at normal volume there would be no headroom left for the effects. I would just insert the PG 5 band EQ and boost that track that way if you like the sound dry.

Bob

I guess you might be right, and Kent about NOT using the DI versions in my case. but i wonder now if the direct input versions are of any use to us then .... If i want to use a 16bit WAV for later FX-ing, i would try to stick closer to -12dB instead of the - 18dB used here. It's not 24 or 32 bit audio, thus far less headroom to play with.

Hi Fiddler,

If you don't plan on putting Amplitube or some other guitar amp plugin on the track, then I'd say the DI version won't be of any use to you. That's their only purpose, they allow you to use your own amp settings if you don't like the amp/effects used on the original RealTrack.

They're not intended to be used dry, as-is.

Thanks
Kent
PG Music

Umh, just figured this is about the 'Ways of the (BIAB) World' (a nice fiddle tune written by Rayna Gellert) in this case. To DI or not to DI good ole Shakespeare would say; it was just a Stupid Q, remember? ... F

fiddler,

If you did want to use the DI track to see what it sounded like, you could always run the PG Music DX effect "Gain Change" to boost the volume of the track. This could be done in BIAB.

Regards,
Noel

Right now i guess the Direct Input wav files are copies of the same 'normal' ones, only the levels are set some -18db lower. Am i right?

Therefor it would not make any sense to 'push' their low levels up, thereby increasing the noise floor too. -F

No, you're still not getting it Frank. The "normal" RT's are recorded using mic's on amps plus some EQ and reverb. A DI track takes the audio cable directly from your guitar into the console and writes it to a stereo track. No amp, no EQ, no nothing. Hence the term "dry". If you're asking about the performance itself then yes it could be the same track. They would run the guitar cable to a splitter, one output goes to the amp and effects and gets recorded the the other output goes directly into the board with no effects of amps.

In my case I'm a keyboard player who focuses on a Hammond B3 and piano. The B3 console by itself does not sound anything like most recordings you hear with organ because the Leslie is literally half the sound of the organ. No Leslie it sounds flat and lifeless. Jon Lord is the one who pioneered the use of taking an audio tap out of the B3 preamp and running it to Marshall stacks to get his powerful and gritty organ sound. Therefor if I wanted to duplicate the Jon Lord sound with an organ RT I would request PGM record some B3 tracks in the exact same manner. Dry output directly from the organs preamp and that's it. No Leslie cabinet sim, no Leslie rotating effect. With no Marshall stack emulation it would be a pretty crappy organ sound believe me.

It's exactly the same thing with guitar DI tracks. Flat and lifeless until you apply some amp sims, EQ, phasers, whatever.

To expand this even more, in order to get a really good studio sound live on stage some very big name players will use DI boxes on stage to do the same thing. The DI goes to the soundman who applies all the effects there and feeds the sound back to the individual IEM's for each player. I've read interviews with bass players and guitarists who love that. They don't have to have their favorite bass amp and an effects rack on stage with them. The dry bass goes right to the console and all that gets applies there. All he has to do is plug in, that's it.

Bob

Look at it this way. Take a solid body guitar, play it through a couple of effects and an amp and record it with a mic in front of the amp. That is a "wet" RT. Now unplug the solid body guitar, that is no effects or amp, and record it with the same mic in front of it. It will be a lot quieter. That is a "dry" RT.

The idea behind this is that you take the "dry" RT and play it through your amp and effects. These can be software emulations or through hardware effects and amp.

I hope this helped.

Bob: regarding B3; got any favorite VSTs? I liked the Native B4 in the past, used it once in a 'serious' situation. These days there are so many more available, some even free.

Kent & Bob: As for your extensive replies, thanks for clearing matters ... so i get that the DI versions don't use any after instrument electrickery; the DI version is just with sound coming out of a normal output (electric signal) of any amplification needing instrument without pre-amp and mixing FX like compression, gating, EQ, reverb and delays. The non DI RTs then use some amplification preamp grit and sweetening. Hopefully without reverb etc added to the WAVs.

Still in regards to the Pedal Steel sound of Paul Franklin i felt the DI version sounds slightly cleaner and maybe better suited for a mix with acoustic real instruments. Hence my grief with the DI version RTs & the low levels still persists. F

<<< Hence my grief with the DI version RTs & the low levels still persists. F >>>

The DI RT is useable with the low level. You have several options to bring the track to a useable level in its 'dry' state. You can export the track at its low level and open it in Audacity, RealBand or any DAW and gain stage the track which brings the initial level up and import the corrected track back into your BIAB project.



Other options you may want to try:

From within BIAB, you can convert the track to a performance track and apply the audio effects gain change, limiter or compressor or a combination of the effects to bring up the level. From the gain stage menu, you can choose to normalize the track.


Set the track to a level that is near the volumes of the other tracks and you don't have to make drastic changes to the mixer volume fader or that it is set too high and distorts.

The low level; it's in the USB PG drive 's saved wav itself. Increasing it also increases the noise floor. Why i started this post LoL. IMO the minimum level with a 16dbit wav is -12dB, what i learned 'officially' in the old days of audio for video (especially TV) mixing; the norm back then when digital audio first came around, with Sony PCM masters & later DAT recorders, all 16bit. I still have an expensive gastubed fast (analog) peak level meter somewhere because of that. A norm abandoned tthese days because every wants to be loudest, especially with commercials. F.

In audacity not only can you increase gain you can cut out noise it take practice but it works.

<<< Increasing it also increases the noise floor. Why i started this post LoL. >>>

The PGMusic Dynamics effect includes a gate that will easily take care of noise floor level noise of a RealTrack recording.

Oh man, be careful what you wish for haha. On the Keyboard Corner there are huge threads talking about exactly that. There are guys there who are complete experts in everything Hammond. Lately the "best" might be the one from Acoustic Samples called the B5. Here's a vid just posted a few days ago by KC forum member JoJoB3, one of many killer players who knows B3's better than I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=41&v=i6OAlKfDYTQ

A bit of background. This rig he's playing is using an old Hammond XK3 for the top controller, another midi controller he took apart for the lower manual and put into a case he built himself plus he's using midi bass pedals. Everything you hear is from the B5 including the Leslie sim, the distortions, all of it. Does he sound like a Hammond geek? Oh yeah he is. And he's not the only one on that forum. The B5 is about the closest I've heard lately.

For me I have a Hammond SK1 which sounds pretty good by itself but when I really want authenticity, I'll use the Neo Ventilator Leslie sim pedal. In order to do that the SK1 has a Bypass button that turns off it's Leslie sim and the Vent takes over. It really makes a big difference. Talking about Leslie sims is yet another huge discussion on the KC. If you really want to check out Hammond clones and Leslie sims check out the Keyboard Corner forum.

Bob

A friend has a Real B3 with original Leslie for sale ... back to your roots? The darn thing weights more than an ephalunt ....

Roots is the term alright. I schlepped one of those around with the leslie for about 20 years starting around 1972. The guitarist and I were into weight lifting and we picked up a WW2 surplus ammo box and put about 200 pounds of weights in it. We would carry that into the hotel room and do some lifting there. He and I could squat down and pick up my full B3 console by the legs down where the crossbars are which allowed us to carry it high enough to clear our knees and just walk it from the van into the venue. Published figures put the weight at 385 pounds. A few years later I had it chopped by a guy in Chicago and that cut the size way down and the weight by 120 pounds or so. It had handles on the sides making it way easier for us to carry plus it could fit on a simple set of wheels I made from 3/4" ply and hardware store wheels.

Fast forward to about 15 years ago, I sold it to a guy who came over to pick it up with a 4X4 Suburban. I hadn't touched it in maybe 6-7 years. I had been going to the gym regularly and was in good shape for a 58 year old guy. It was all I could do to handle one end of that thing and get it up and over the lip of his truck. Going to the gym does NOT turn back the clock to when you were 25.

My Hammond SK1 weighs 12 pounds and no it doesn't sound like the real thing (nothing is close unless it's going through a real Leslie) but trust me at 12 pounds it's plenty good enough!

Bob

Due all sorts of reasons my current usual rigging consists of a double fiddle case, and two peavey gigbags with each a cajun squeezer. Still have a hand free for an acoustic guitar case or my sleeping gear LoL. I am not jealous. Latest keyboard i ever used for gigs was a 80-bass britches piano, plm 6 kilos ...