Hi PG Music,

Please revisit Real Track 3211 (Harmonica Soloist Shuffle Fiery LD SW 130).

This new real track has some excellent slower (long drawn out) phrases which fit well into Blues Shuffles especially when you select the simplified version.

However it also has lots of phrases that are just plain wrong (not in tune) or in a completely different Genre.

It also has way way too many "stabbing" phrases which again are not suited to Blues or Rock in any time and of any variety.

There is also no space in it so the notes and phrases are not musical and just loose all meaning - they are just a big mess.

There is also no "build" in this real track - good phrases are not built on with variations - instead they are followed by utterly different phrases in a completely unrelated genre.

I also notice it plays quite differently depending on which song key you select - e.g. if you select Gb, F or E all the good long notes are gone regardless of how many times you regenerate the song.

Therefore this very promising realtrack is virtually useless.

I would really appreciate it if somebody familiar with Blues, Blues/Rock or RnB music at PG Music could take a look at this realtrack and make it a real asset for all of us.

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

Not only this one, but some things about other more recent RTs i don't like. F.i. most Irish instrumental backing RTs are far too busy when put together i a mix, soundwise in the same frequency range like some slightly muddy sounding acoustic guitars, cellos and bodhrans. Nice when solo-ed, but for backing? Also there's too much of a colliding syncopation rhythm racket going on at times when used together. Nathalie Haas' cello is very nice but quite un-useful due many rhythm sycopations getting in the way of melodies. Some editing could be done there in regards of simplifying rhythms at least. But that's all IMO .....

I find that to get the most from the real tracks, I have to pick and choose what sections I want. In other words, I don't just take the whole track and use it "as is". I use volume envelopes in my DAW to edit out the things I don't want to use.

I also find that occasionally, I hear a part I like but it's in the wrong place in the track. I use audio edit to cut it out and move it to where I want it. It takes a bit of work but it's well worth the effort.

I do understand what you say about some tracks simply don't work because they are too busy or don't fit the groove. I've deleted more tracks from projects than I wish to recall, for that reason. Somehow, it always tends to work out. I look for a different track that does work, or I simply do without. No one knows in the end but me.

Quite often my way to work things out with the soloist type RTs too ..... But some times the generated solo parts just seem to be really off, and around totally different chords, and even totally missing when there are 4 chord changes in a 4/4 bar measure f.i.

It probably is a hellish job to get things right for the programmers.

Hello Nigel,

It would be great if you could email us a frozen .SGU and comment on the specific bars that you hear issues, and we can see if it is fixable. I did notice a few oddities in the key of F, but I'm not sure if it's what you're hearing, and a frozen .SGU from you would be worth a thousand words.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your reply - much appreciated.

Perhaps I did not explain myself very well. This is not a bug in your software - no it's a problem with the music itself.

I'm not sure what has gone wrong with Real Track 3211 and all the rest of that performer's real tracks - but they simply don't work.

As I'm sure you are aware good music is not about how many notes you can play per minute - it's all about the quality of the notes.

Try it yourself on any 12 bar 130 bpm shuffle - it simply doesn't work does it?

I tried my usual trick of rendering Realtrack 3211 twenty times then lining up all the renders in my DAW. In each 3 minute render I may have been able to use around 5-10 notes out of the thousands being played.

With someone like Brent on Guitar I only have to render his solos 3-4 times and I can always mix and match to get a good result.

I'd like to think you could just revisit all the musician's recordings and redo the Realtracks - but unfortunately the material just isn't there.

Such a shame as the tone and the quality of the recording is fine and we can't have enough "real" Blues Realtracks for my liking.

Best Regards & Keep Up The Great Work.
Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I just loaded the demo for the style _GAMBLIN.STY, which contains 3211, and it played fine for me. It's a great harmonica sound.

Does the track that you have RT 3211 loaded on have "double-time" set by any chance. When I set "double time" in Realtrack Picker for 3211 in _GAMBLIN.STY, it did not sound too good. Maybe something like this has happened.

Regards,
Noel

Hi Noel,

No - it's not double time.

I think you and Andrew need to sit down with some of the great harp players and hear how it should be done e.g. Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson II and Charlie Musselwhite. This is real music.

Good Luck on your musical journey of discovery.

Regards
Nigel

Allways wondered why a harmonica is called a harp ... enlighten me ?

Hi Fiddler2007,

There is not a definitive reason why the Harmonica is commonly referred to as a Harp.

However here are a few snippets from my browsing on the subject:

The name "harp" is not a replacement for "harmonica."

The instrument was called a harp before it was called a harmonica.

And harmonica was already the name of another instrument.

The first harmonicas were called Aeolina - which refers to a harp
whose strings are excited to sound by wind. Here the reeds replace
strings. Other early harmonicas were called "mundharfe" - mouth-harp.
I'm not sure when the harmonica name was first borrowed to refer to
our instrument.

Meanwhile, the name "harmonica" referred to at least one other
instrument, the most recent of which was the glass harmonica, which
operated by the friction of the fingers against wet glass. Benjamin
Franklin is said to have invented a form of this instrument that
resembled a treadle-operated lathe, with several glass discs of
different sizes (and pitches) rotating in a trough of water.

Mouth organ is perhaps the most technically accurate, as free reeds
are also used in organs and harmoniums.

Best Regards
Nigel

Thanks .... heard music from Laos once, i think the thing was called sheng or cheng; sounded just like a blues harp, also the way in was used in a song ...

Makes one think it should be called sharp then, as the sheng instrument seems to be much older. sheng

It just so happens I'm working on a 12 bar 130 bpm I-IV-V shuffle at the moment, using mostly _COOKIN.STY. I dropped in that realtrack 3211 and you are right, it doesn't work. Maybe the part of the realtrack that determines what riffs to play for each chord is wrong??

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for addressing the problems with the LD Harmonica soloist Realtracks so quickly with Build 625 - much appreciated.

I installed 625 today and immediately tested out the LD Harmonica Realtracks.

I tried them with both Blue and Green Part markers and also Simplified mode.

Unfortunately there is no difference at all - they all seem completely out of tune to me and also still playing all those weird staccato phrases which are totally unrelated to Blues Music or any other Genre that I can think of. They are so out of tune that I had to keep muting the harmonica Realtrack to make sure that something weird was not happening to the bass and piano parts.

Maybe it's because my test song is a 12 bar in Gb and with a timing of 105 BPM SW. I know this is not ideal for use with a 130 BPM SW Harmonica Realtrack but timing is not one of the the issues here.

Please advise what I am doing wrong.

I followed Icelanders advice on using the Soloist generator instead. You can adjust quite some perimeters at maybe a little confusing sub- and sub-sub menus BIAB-wise, and got slightly better results, but it takes a bit of experimenting. Some soloist tutorial video, Callie, for the next one?

Hi Fiddler,

Thanks - I am aware of but not familiar with the Soloist feature in BIAB.

Is this based on Midi instruments or Realtracks?

Best Regards
Nigel

Both IMO, and eachtime i tried it over the years it sort of acts like an unbranded untrained horse going places never seen before. Rarely coming up with something (melodically) interesting for me. Food for Jazzers i guess mainly. MIDI delivers more variation than RTs, RTs only some slight variations.

PS interesting site on harp: INFO

fiddler2007 and NigelSpiers,

Both of you may find +++ THIS +++ post by Alyssa of PG Music interesting.

Her post provides a link to +++ THIS 11:45 YouTube Video +++ with an overview of the Soloist settings.

Ah, Thanks ... oops, me and me ole loudmouth ....

Hi Jim,

Thanks - yes that Video was very interesting.

I tried adjusting all the settings within the BIAB Soloist for the LH Harmonica Real Track solos and NO significant improvements were audible.

I've given up and will get a friend to play the harmonica solos.

Topic closed - thanks all forum members for your suggestions.

Best Regards
Nigel

LD Harmonica soloist (FIXED)

I have finally worked out a solution:

You include this harp soloist in the first two bars, mute them in the next two bars.
Include them in bars 5-6, mute them in 7 & 8.
Include them in bars 9 & 10, Mute them in bars 1 & 12.
Then you render the song 30 times.
Then you edit in DAW to mute all phrases where the harp gets totally out of control.
50 hours work!
Bingo - you have yourself a song!

Nigel,

Did you provide a sample sgu/mgu file with frozen tracks as Andrew requested +++ HERE +++ March 08, 2019?

The full name of RealTracks 3211 is "Harmonica, SoloistBluesShuffleFieryLD SW 130". The folder contains 25 audio files. A sample sgu/mgu file will go a long ways toward identifying issues. With a sample file and your notes identifying what bars and beats have issues PG Music support can identify what audio the program selected. With that in mind, emailing a sample sgu file is definitely the next step forward toward resolution.

Email to "support@pgmusic.com". Make sure in the email header indicates the email is about an issue with RealTracks 3211, "Harmonica, SoloistBluesShuffleFieryLD SW 130". I would indicate that Andrew requested the sample sgu file and provide a link to this thread. I would also include whatever notes you made regarding which bars and beats have issues.

However, I suspect there may be another possibility. When I used the RealTracks Picker I noticed RealTracks 3211 is one of 10 RealTracks included in RealTracks set 303. When I read the memo notes for the RealTracks I keep seeing terms like "blistering", "fiery" and "gritty". I translate those words to loosely mean "distorted", "full of runs" and "more distortion".

I'm wondering if the issue isn't more that you don't agree with the production guidelines provided to the artist more than there are errors in the recordings? If you're wanting a smooth, easy blues performance then these RealTracks aren't for you. I remember when this set was first released I wondered aloud in a forum post if the set had any simple variations that weren't so busy and direct input without the distortion.

If the second possibility is what's going on then the next step is to make a wishlist request in the +++ Styles and RealTracks Wishlist +++ section of the forum.

I can read your frustration and desire to have a RealTracks that works for you. I hope my ideas help.

I agree, this soloist is not for me either. Way too busy. I just auditioned all the soloist tracks by LD Miller and he's way too busy and choppy on all of them even the slow ones at 80. Not soulful blues at all. This is just me listening to the demo's in the RT Picker. Then I set up a 12 bar blues in Biab and tried different keys and tempos. I've never had a guy play harp in a blues band sound like this. There are so many different styles of blues from all over the world now who knows what's considered good? I'm sure LD must be considered a great player but if this is really his style it's not for me.

To Nigel I don't think there's anything wrong with these tracks from a production pov, they're just not what you're looking for in a harp player and I agree with you. If LD sat in with me and played like that I'd give him one song then say "Thanks for sitting in man, see ya around".

Bob

He sounds pretty good to me!! A little over the top? Yeah, but I like that. Not through a whole song though. It would have it uses though.


[edit]
Never mind about this below. I figured it out.

Now I was able to listen to a lot of demos, but when I went to load it, it said it couldn't find them. Does that mean I don't have that solo disc?

It must have gotten fixed with a realtracks patch. When I first tried it it was definitely playing wrong notes, notes that didn't fit the chords. Tried it again just now on the same song and it is fine. Sounds pretty good actually as far as the notes he is playing.

A bit too busy for my tastes, but a lot of modern blues guitarists strike me as too busy also. To each his own

I didn’t listen and have no opinion on this genre but your use of the term ‘choppy’ caught my eye. If that’s choppy playing, that’s just his style, but if it’s choppy stitching together phrases by BIAB, I wonder if trying that RealTrack at a timebase of half-time would sound more pleasing? Just a thought for an experiment.

Dave is right the RT is ok the phrases stitch together well enough. Rereading Nigels original post there's no out of tune problems or wrong notes so an update must have fixed those issues.

Bob

Oh, very good. Thanks.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your excellent comments - high quality as always.

You are all correct:

1. PG Music has largely fixed the errors with the LD Miller set of recordings.

2. It is a lack of direction and production guidelines.

What I hope will happen from raising this matter is that PG Music will take more care with future live recordings of fine musicians by giving them more musical direction e.g.

1. Please play in the style of XXX while adding your own character. Here is a list of musicians playing in the required style as a guideline.

2. Please remember that our clients will require reasonably straight forward, top quality phrasing and production to suit the widest range of tastes and musical applications.

NB All musicians appreciate clear and well thought out guidelines from expert musical directors.

The answer is to get LD Miller back in the studio. He is clearly a talented musician he just needs guidance.

I trust this is of assistance PG Music.

Best Regards

No one but PG Music and the musicians know what directions and guidelines the musicians are given. Our best hints are the RealTracks names, audio compilations and memo notes.

In this case, read through the RealTrack names and memo notes and I think you may concur the musician followed directions and guidelines. There is a reason the RealTrack has "fiery" in the track name.

RealTracks are amazing but PG Music is creating content that is trying to please a pretty big and diverse world wide audience. Just because this set is not our cup of tea doesn't mean that is true for all users.