substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums

Posted by: DC Ron

substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/11/19 02:39 PM

I'd like to substitute MIDI drums for RealDrums on RealTrack styles but can't figure out how. Started with Force Drum Track to MIDI drums but can't load a MIDI drum preset after that. Tried the MIDI Track Picker's Choose from Presets dialogue and it doesn't seem to work. The drum preset just doesn't change. Am sure this is easy, I'm just feeling stupid and...stuck. THANK YOU!
Posted by: Noel96

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/11/19 03:23 PM

What style are you using? I'll give it a test run.

It might be that that particular style does not have defined MIDI drum set underlying the Realdrums.

Regards,
Noel
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 02:28 AM

Thanks, Noel. The drums ARE forced to MIDI, just can't seem to change styles like this...

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/0sy3cu981yxycmg/BiaB%20MIDI%20drums.JPG?dl=0[/img]

(not sure I'm embedding this image correctly)
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 04:46 AM

Once you force the drums to MIDI, you must select a drum kit (patch)

In testing, I Rt clicked on the drum track and forced the track to midi
Rt click and Select Midi Instrument from the drop down menu;
Rt Click and from the top of the menu selected Hi-Q midi patch plug in

This gave me a great sounding Sforzando VST drum kit.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: DC Ron
Thanks, Noel. The drums ARE forced to MIDI, just can't seem to change styles like this...



Note in your photo that Acoustic Piano is the patch selected - There are no drums listed in the patch drop down menu - Follow the process outlined above and you should get the drum track working.
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 05:53 AM

Thank you, Charlie. I am SO BAD at explaining, but let me try again...

MIDI drums play fine when I force to MIDI. And I can change drum kit patches no problem. What I can't do is change to the drum preset/patterns shown in the lower right corner of the screenshot and have the drumming pattern change.
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 07:18 AM

I see what you're saying. I experience the same thing. I can force the drums to midi, select a kit and the drum track plays a pattern. But regardless of what kit from another style, the same pattern plays. If I change a drum kit from standard rock kit to a Brushes kit, I have to also change the patch but again, it plays the same pattern over my chord chart.
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/12/19 09:43 AM

Thanks for verifying my issue! Can't help but think there's a way to do this...
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/13/19 04:37 PM

Anyone had success at inserting MIDI drums? Thx!
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/13/19 09:09 PM

Ask yourself this question Ron. What's the source of the midi drum data when the style is using a Real Drum track which is audio? There is no midi data written therefore nothing for a midi drum kit to play unless your RD track was recorded on a midi drum kit and the audio was generated from a drum synth.

Audition midi styles similar to the RT style you want. Ignore the instrument tracks, listen to drums only. Once you find a midi drum part you like, you can sub all the midi instrument tracks from the original RT style.

Bob
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Ask yourself this question Ron. What's the source of the midi drum data when the style is using a Real Drum track which is audio? There is no midi data written therefore nothing for a midi drum kit to play unless your RD track was recorded on a midi drum kit and the audio was generated from a drum synth.

Audition midi styles similar to the RT style you want. Ignore the instrument tracks, listen to drums only. Once you find a midi drum part you like, you can sub all the midi instrument tracks from the original RT style.

Bob


What I experienced Bob is that after I removed the RealDrums and once the midi drums played a midi pattern, changing styles changed the drum kit but not the pattern.
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 09:17 AM

We're talking about starting with a Real Style. Real Styles are not styles at all, there are no specific bass lines, guitar riffs or anything written out to create the style. They are simply a group of RT's that sound good together so they are called a Real Style. Compare that with a midi style where all the parts are written out and can create a midi file. There the drums were recorded using a midi drum kit. Since so many users don't use high end midi synths midi drums sound thin and weak which is why the first control we got was a checkbox to automatically sub a Real Drum part for the midi drums. There is no checkbox to sub a midi drum part for a RD as part of a Real Style. Therefore if you want midi drums you have to start with a midi style then you can sub the other instruments with any RT's you want.

Bob
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 11:55 AM

<<< We're talking about starting with a Real Style. >>>

Yes.


<<< There is no checkbox to sub a midi drum part for a RD as part of a Real Style. >>>


Yes there is. Rt click and select 'Force Drums Track to MIDI drums'
The track color turns to yellow and the Instrument to 1 standard drum kit.
On my system, at this point the sound generated is a bass guitar sound.

To get drums to play, I have to assign a Plug in

I select Plug Ins and Select Coyote WT
Hit Generate and Play and I have drums playing.


The issue then becomes if I'm not satisfied with that drum style pattern, opening the drop down menu and select 'Select a Custom Midi style for this track' (current track drums), selecting a style or preset from this menu does not change the drum pattern.
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 01:20 PM

My issue in the original post is a bit different:

1. I can force to MIDI drums and an appropriate MIDI drum will play on the standard MIDI drum patch.
2. When I try to select another MIDI drum preset, it LOOKS like the new preset loads (in this case dogsamba).

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/umphvxq3gi1r61q/BiaB%20MIDI%20drums%202.JPG?dl=0[/img]

3. But the drum pattern that plays is the same one from 1. above, not a samba.

Really appreciate the time of all who have pitched in so far...THANK YOU!
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 02:14 PM

This is what I get from posting from a friends house and not when I'm home on my system to test what I just wrote, haha.

Guess what, I just found a new feature. Apparently there is a midi drum part associated with "most" Real Styles. Here's what I just did. I selected 4 styles, two funky, one country and one rock. After selecting the style I first played it to make sure the Real Drums are playing as they should. Then I right clicked on the "Drums" instrument header at the top and down the list is "force Drums track to MIDI drums". Hit play and there is a midi drum pattern that is in the style of the RT style. Funk is funk, rock is rock but no midi drums for the country style. Until I try maybe a hundred styles, this appears to be a style by style thing. Some have this but others don't. This means what I wrote above is partially correct.

DC Ron, here's what you originally wrote:

Quote:
I'd like to substitute MIDI drums for RealDrums on RealTrack styles but can't figure out how. Started with Force Drum Track to MIDI drums but can't load a MIDI drum preset after that.


IF you've selected an RT style with an optional (by forcing MIDI drums) associated midi drum pattern then you don't have to do anything, the pattern should play. If you want to change the drum pattern but keep the rest of the real tracks then you have to either select another RT style and see if there's a better midi pattern linked up to it or do what I wrote earlier and reverse this process. You start with all midi styles until you find the drums you like THEN you can replace all the midi instrument tracks with original RT style tracks.

Now, slightly off topic, this kind of experimentation is WAY easier in Real Band. Check it out.

Bob
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 02:41 PM

Bob, thanks for the very thoughtful reply.

Last night I tried your approach of auditioning multiple MIDI styles with MIDI drums and then inserting real tracks for the other instruments and it does work.

But it's not optimal. What I'm trying to do is improve the mix on some existing songs written with RealStyles by forcing to MIDI drums, and then auditioning MIDI drum presets until I find one that I like. If I understand your instructions, this can't be done. This seems odd for a program that started out 100% MIDI (I was there!), but certainly matches my recent experience.

So I can start with my RealStyles-based song, write down the #'s of the RealTracks used, then go to the StylePicker and filter for MIDI only. Once I find a MIDI-only RealStyle I like the drums on, I load it. Then I can load the RealTracks I wrote down. Doable, BUT probably a bit too tedious to be useful for what I'm trying to do.

About every other year I'll open up Real Band and experiment with it. Did it last night, in fact. Looks like it has improved in many ways, including appearance, since I last tried to earnestly use it to make music. May try it again. Don't know if I'm ready to climb another learning curve based on past experiences, but I'll think it over. smile

THANK YOU, again.

Ron
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 03:57 PM

jazzmammal (Bob),

I'm not surprised by your findings. My understanding is, especially in the beginning, many RealStyles are one off variations of midi styles.

One easy way to tell is to load a RealStyle into an empty RealBand project. If you have RealBand preferences set to default so the first 8 tracks are BB tracks. If both the BB tracks load midi and the RealTracks load audio the RealStyle began life as a midi style.
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/14/19 04:46 PM

Ron, are you aware you can audition styles by double clicking on them in the Stylepicker window?

Your point about not being able to audition individual midi instruments is a good one. I've been requesting that for years. Unfortunately all the midi instruments are packed into a style and the only way to hear them is to audition the style.

And, yes RB is still better for what you're trying to do. You still can't audition individual midi instruments there either BUT you can make a whole bunch of midi or RD drum comp tracks. You can also open up your original Real Tracks song done with that RT style you like and it will sit there undisturbed in the first 8 Biab tracks while you audition and generate whatever other things you may want. Just check the box to make all Biab tracks regular tracks so you don't regenerate/overwrite them by mistake. Remember RB has 48 tracks to play with.

Bob
Posted by: DC Ron

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/16/19 04:49 PM

Bob, thanks again.

Yes, know about auditioning in Stylepicker.

May have to dive into RB again, despite the past traumas. Thanks for reminding me of the features.

The odd thing about my MIDI drums issue is that the MIDI style picker dialogue box indicates that I CAN make a MIDI drum style change, and offers me drum-only presets. But even after selecting a preset, the actual MIDI drums being played are NOT what I selected. Stranger still, the display indicates that the MIDI drum style HAS been selected. Suspect there's a bug in there.

Think I'll go to tech support to see what they say...
Posted by: Charlie Fogle

Re: substituting MIDI drums for RealDrums - 06/24/19 10:54 AM

<<< Ron, are you aware you can audition styles by double clicking on them in the Stylepicker window?
Your point about not being able to audition individual midi instruments is a good one. I've been requesting that for years. Unfortunately all the midi instruments are packed into a style and the only way to hear them is to audition the style. >>>



The StylePicker in BIAB is better for auditioning than the one used by RealBand. The StylePickers are different.


The BIAB StylePicker has an extra Play Radio Button that allows you to audition every Style playing using the Chord Chart and other settings of your loaded song. The RB StylePicker does not have this feature.


Using the BIAB StylePicker, when you utilize this Play Radio Button, you hear how the drums (and every other instrument) will sound in your song rather than how it sounds in the PGMusic demo song. A Style can sound drastically different over your Chord Chart Song Settings than it does playing the demo. Another benefit is you can audition hundreds of different instruments hearing how they will sound over your Chord Chart and other settings in minutes.


In the updated StylePicker recently released, you can also mute the various tracks right from the StylePicker at the end of each track there's a box with two dots. Click on it and from the menu that opens, select Track Settings\Mute or Solo

Be careful using the mute/solo as it can throw off the styles because a change of Styles may load without a default synth assigned.