I'd like to know a bit more about the chords that can be used in BiaB. After I finished writing a new song with the melody and all the chords entered into MuseScore yesterday, I exported an XML file of that song, which I then opened in BiaB. But when I watched BiaB play through the arrangement that I had subsequently created, I noticed that a couple of chord names had changed. This isn't the first time I've seen this happen, but it is the first time I decided to investigate this issue further to obtain a better understanding of what BiaB was doing with my chords and why, etc.

The two chords that changed are as follows: A2 changed to Asus2, and Cadd9 changed to Cadd2. Now, I know that Asus2 is not the same as A2, so I changed it in BiaB, and BiaB accepted my change. I also know that Cadd9 is sort of the same as Cadd2 but not exactly the same. So, I tried to change this chord as well, but BiaB prevented me from doing this. (I had previously encountered the same issue in another song when I tried to change an Emadd2 chord to an Emadd9 chord.) As I thought about this, I realized that the C2 and Csus2 chords are also very similar to (if not the same) as the Cadd9 chord. This compelled me to do a search on Google to find out the technical details on these chords so that I could determine whether or not I should accept BiaB's chord substitution. As a result, I found the following article, which does a very good job of covering all the bases on these chords:

https://passingchords.com/c2-csus2-cadd2-c9-cadd9

I also found the following page on PG Music's Support page (under Tutorials) that lists all the chords that BiaB, RB, and PowerTracks recognizes:

https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_chordlist.htm

When I read through all the chords on this page, I noticed that the Csus2, Cadd2, and the Cadd9 chords weren't listed but C2 is. According to the chords article, the C2 chord has the same notes as the Cadd2 and the Cadd9 chords have, but the C2 chord is identical only to the Cadd9 chord because the notes in the Cadd2 and the Cadd9 are in a different sequence. I also discovered from the chords article that Csus2 isn't the same as C2, Cadd2 or Cadd9. This makes sense because the A2 chord isn't the same as the Asus2 chord. However, because I have used an Asus2 chord before in BiaB, and because BiaB automatically substitutes an Asus2 chord for an A2 chord (as I mentioned above), I would think that a Csus2 chord would be available for use as well.

Does anyone have any thoughts on all of this?

All I can say is Biab does not recognize all possible chord variations and if you're using Real Tracks then you're dealing with what was actually recorded in the studio. If you find a RT that is not playing the proper chord notify support about it, they have issued patches for this before. With midi it's usually not a problem. If that chart says Biab recognizes that chord then with midi it should play it. BUT...

This is controlled by the style and using or not using that checkbox to "jazz up or jazz down" the chords. You also have the "intelligent arrangement" feature to play with too. Biab is designed as an intelligent song creator so sometimes it simply decides your chord doesn't fit so it does it it's way. It's not a dumb "play it exactly how you input it" kind of thing. Sort of like a real band with real players would do. You get a good player on whatever instrument and they may decide on their own to make a few chord subs.

Also regenerating can give you different variations on the chords so listen carefully, if you suddenly hear what you want freeze the tracks and don't regen again or you'll lose it.

Bob

This may help you understand the BIAB choice of chord names.

In the file, X/BB/Data/pgshortc.txt you will find this text:

; Note these are already defined in BB, and you can't over-ride these shortcuts
;sus2@2 add2@2 m+@m#5 dim7@dim 7aug@7+ sus4@sus 11@9sus 9sus4@9sus
;13sus4@13sus add9@2 7sus4@7sus s@7sus h@m7b5 d@dim J@MAJ7
; f@7b9 m7+@m7#5 NC@C. no chord l@7Alt u@(Blues) 7u@7(Blues)
; Lyd@lydian Lyd@lyd Lyd@4#

This makes it clear that BIAB considers sus2 to be 2, add2 to be 2, and add9 to be 2.

Bob is correct that they will generate differently but BIAB treats all three as a 2 chord.

Well, I do remember this happening once a few months ago. I may still have the file, but I'd have to search for it to be sure. I was playing a demo for my producer, and he noticed that a D7 chord was played instead of a D chord. It's probably not worth my time to track this down, but I'll keep it in mind for the future.

I'm surprised to know this because every time I've changed an Asus2 chord to an A2 chord and regenerated, the A2 chord sounded correct while the Asus2 chord that was there previously was noticeably clashing with the B note that was in the melody (the A2 didn't clash). I guess I'll have to do some more experimenting.

Also, in the last couple of versions of BIAB a feature called "Natural Arrangements" was introduced.

This is a chord substitution option that aims to create a smoother arrangement. With this option, though, it's not clear what chords are substituted since the chordsheet does not change.

I leave this option off as I prefer all my chords to play as I entered them. The option is found under "Options | Preferences | Arrange" or under "Song Settings".

When the Natural Arrangement option is deactivated, there will usually be a message on the screens lower right that says something like "x% of complex chords are present..." -- I just ignore this.

Regards,
Noel

• my latest re-mix using multiband compression : Just A Little After Midnight

I don't know if you write it from scratch in MuseScore but you can put the chords in Biab then open that SGU with MuseScore to add the melody, as this will give all compatible chords.
Also the Chord Picker Tool below has all the available BB chords.

Matt, I'm replying to this again because it just occurred to me that BiaB's substitution of my A2 chord with an Asus2 chord is inconsistent with what you said in your post. IOW, if BiaB considers a sus2 chord to be a 2 chord, why is it changing my 2 chord to a sus2 chord when it imports my XML file?

I see that message pop up briefly whenever I open a new XML file. My arrangement settings are enabled to do this only for Jazz styles, which I don't use.

Whether BIAB shows the chord as A2 or Asus2 depends on the selection of choices in Display Options. I've highlighted these on the graphic below.

At the end of the day, though, whatever is displayed (i.e. Asus2 Aadd2), the chord is an A2 -- as shown in the list of substitutions that Matt posted.

Regards,
Noel

Yes, I do write my songs from scratch in MuseScore, so the chords are already in the XML file that I open in BiaB.
I looked at the screen shots of your Chord Picker Tool and noticed that there is no sus2 chord listed. I also noticed that a 2 chord and a 4 chord are listed on the Maj chord set. If a 2 chord is the same as a sus2 chord, wouldn't a 4 chord be the same as a sus4 chord? If so, wouldn't the sus chord on the Suspended 4 chord set be the same as the 4 chord on the Maj chord set?

I tried to bring that graphic up in BiaB but couldn't figure out how. Can you tell me what to click on?

Also, I've done some more research on the A2 vs. Asus2 chords and discovered that the statement I made in my OP about the A2 and the Asus2 chords being different was somewhat misleading because it's technically incorrect, depending on which naming convention is being used. See the discussion of the A2 chord at the following website for more info:

https://ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?10138-What-is-an-A2-Chord

The deeper I dig into this, the more confusing it becomes because there isn't a standard chord naming convention for guitars, as mentioned in the following quote from someone named "Poparad" towards the end of the above discussion:

"I think a lot of this 'sus' confusion stems from that fact that a lot of people forget where the 'suspension' even came from or why it's called that.

The word 'suspension' means to hold up, to retain temporarily. The 'sus4' chord developed out of the practice of holding notes over in the change of a IV chord to a V chord. In the key of C, a IV V progression is F major to G major. When the chord changes, the note 'C' from the F major chord was 'suspended' temporarily, and then resolved down to a 'B' on the G major chord, creating a delayed resolution of the G chord. The first common method of notating harmony was figured bass, which merely indicated the intervals to be played above the given bass note. In the case of a suspension, the abbreviation 'sus' was added after the roman numeral of the bass note, followed by the interval above which the suspended note was to be. There were actually other kinds of suspensions other than the 4; there were suspended 6ths and suspended 2nds, both resolving downward to the 5th or the root, respectively.

When music began to be labelled in a chord-oriented format, the 'sus4' label was retained to designate this practice. Eventually, over time people began to use the 'sus4' chord as a seperate entity, and not necessarily resolving it.

But what if on that IV V progression an A was held and then resolved up to a B? In this case, it has traditionally been labelled as a retardation, but the label 'ret2' or something to that effect never came about. "Sus2" is result of borrowing an already existing label to name something similar, even though technically a sus2 isn't a suspension. What is commonly today referred to as a 'sus2' chord would have to omit the Root of the chord, as that is the note a 'sus2' resolves downward to. Since these chords include the root but not the third, they are actually retardations, but again, through common practice, they are no longer required to be resolved.

As a result a sort of dichotomy evolved in the music world. Amongst guitar players in the rock/pop music realm, 'sus2' became the standard for notating a chord composed of Root, 2nd, and 5th. In the realm of music involving non-guitarists, such as jazz, the label "C2" became accepted for the same chord.

There really is no point in disputing the authenticity or widespread use of either term, as they are firmly implanted into the vocabulary of both realms of music and pedagogy. So in the end, we should probably just accept both labels as acceptable terms for the same chord, much in the same way that the notes "C Eb Gb Bb" can be called either "Cm7b5" or "CØ7" with equal legitimacy."

Then there's the next post, which introduces another twist:

"Some sites are using A2 to refer to Aadd9
Poparad,

Your explanation is wonderful. It appears there is still some confusion out there on this naming convention. At this site, http://www.hobby-hour.com/guitar/chords.php?chord=asus2 they are showing the fingering for the chord I see on lead sheets as A2, but they spell it out as Asus2. The different chord they call an A2 chord is actually an Aadd9 and as a rock/pop guitarist I almost never play that chord. The chord I play is fingered like an A major chord, but with an open B string. That would be an Asus2, normally written as A2 due to the reasons you noted above, except on this site (which ranked at the top of my Google search for "A2 chord") where they call an Aadd9 A2. So confusing."

So, besides my confusion over the chord names being used in BiaB (A2 vs. Asus2), what I really need to know is what BiaB means by an A2 chord and by an Asus2 chord. From my experience, when BiaB substitutes Asus2 for an A2 chord in my XML file, the sound of that chord is not correct because it clashes with the B note in my melody. But when I change it to an A2 chord in the chord sheet and regenerate, a different chord is played that sounds correct because it doesn't clash with the B note. IOW, if these two chords are allegedly the same, why do they sound different from each other in BiaB?

As mentioned you can get the C2 to display as Csus2 and Csus as Csus4.
This is the chord output from RapidComposer and Biab.

The easiest way to get to Display options is to right-click on the chordsheet and select "Display Options".


Thanks for the theory lesson. The explanations you've posted are excellent.

My harmony training is classical and I've always thought of the suspension of a chord as resolving downwards by step.

BIAB definitely plays X2 chords. With different generations, though, it's highly likely that the 2nd could appear in different octaves. It's also possible that some chords that have been mapped as X2 are either sus2 or add2. This will depend on what the composer played and how PG Music interpreted the results. BIAB does not distinguish between the two though.

In case it's useful information for you, a sus2 chord is a first inversion of a sus4 chord. (This makes one wonder if sus2 is really a variant of sus4!)

For example. Csus4 = C-F-G

In first inversion, this is F-G-C = Fsus2

In other words, to get a sus2, notate the suspended 4th chord a perfect fourth below the root of the chord needed and play it over the root of the chord needed.

That is, to get Csus2... the perfect fourth below = G thus use a Gsus4 chord over a C bass -- i.e. Gsus4/C = G-C-D over a C bass = sames notes as Csus2.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. Pipeline's use of BIAB Piano Roll mode to show what the suspension is a great idea!

Hi all

I always think of sus chords as altered thirds, in fact I believe they are not considered to be either Major or minor, just chords where the third has been substituted for a 2nd or 4th in the case of sus2 and sus4.
As far as add 9 goes it is like a sus 2 but the third is in the next octave one octave higher than the sus 2.

Just my simple understanding.
Mike

This is brilliant.

I was taught that a sus chord can, and usually wants to, resolve. In a sus4, the 4 resolves to a major third. But what is a sus2, really? Where does it resolve to? Although you could move to another chord, it is perfectly stable by itself.

I was taught that in a sus chord the sus replaces a note, usually the third, i.e. C-D-G or C-F-G.

An add chord a note is added to the chord, i.e. C-D-E-G or C-E-G-D, C-E-F-G or C-E-G-F. Note that the first chord in each example can be called a cluster chord.

This is my understanding, too. It's also how it was explained in the article at the first link I shared in my OP. Here's a quote of the "Sus" section from that article:

"The sus in a chord name standards for “suspended”. This chord type creates extra tension by exchanging the 3rd (for a major chord) or a minor 3rd (for a minor chord) for another note.

Some will debate whether the suspended 4th is the only option for a sus chord. They will argue that a sus2 cannot be used. But, given that sus2 is commonly used by guitarists we will ignore the debate entirely and assume sus2 does exist.

For a sus2 chord, we would replace the 3 of the scale for the 2 of the scale. So Csus2 is just a C major chord with the 2 (D) replacing the major third (E).

Csus2 = C, D, G"

Following this logic, a Csus4 would have the notes C, F, G. In the case of the A chord, an Asus2 would have the notes A, B, E, and an Asus4 would have the notes A, D, E. While both the 3rd note in the C chord can easily be substituted with the 2nd note (for Csus2) or the 4th note (for Csus4) on the guitar when using the standard open chord version of C, this isn't possible to do with the standard open A chord version because the of where the notes occur on the strings. As a result, the notes in the Asus2 chord end up being A, E, A, B, E, and the notes in the Asus4 end up being A, E, A, D, E. I'm sure that similar scenarios would occur with other chords for the same reason.

But getting back to the original issue of BiaB's substutition of an Asus2 chord for the A2 chords in my song. This morning I decided to create a test file in BiaB in which I would alternate between the A2 and the Asus2 chord so that I could listen for any changes that might occur when these chords were played back after I had generated the arrangement. But every time I tried to enter an Asus2 chord, BiaB automatically changed it to an A2 chord. This baffled me because of my remembrance that BiaB had changed the A2 chords in my song to an Asus2 chord. So, I re-opened my XML file so that I could make sure that this is indeed what had happened. To my utter surprise, I discovered that BiaB didn't change my A2 chords to Asus2 chords but instead had changed them to Aadd2 chords. I must have been half asleep the first time I had gone through this process because I was sure that I saw Asus2 chords on my screen, but I know now that I was mistaken. (Sorry, guys, for giving all of you the wrong information!) Nevertheless, considering Matt's earlier post in which he said that BiaB also recognizes an Add2 chord as an A2 chord, I'm still dealing with an issue of improper chord substitution on BiaB's part except that I was reading an Aadd2 chord as an Asus2 chord.

The reason I say "improper chord substitution on BiaB's part" is because of what I heard when I re-created my test file in which I alternated between an A2 chord and an Add2 chord (not an Asus2 chord). This time, BiaB did not prevent me from entering the Aadd2 chord like it did when I had tried to enter the Asus2 chord. And when I played this test song (after I had generated the arrangement), I could definitely hear that the Aadd2 chord sounded very different from the A2 chord. What I can't figure out, though, is what the notes are in this chord and what this chord would look like on the guitar.

From a note standpoint (based on the info in the first article I shared above), an Add2 chord would consist of the notes A, C#, E, and B, but it isn't possible to create a standard open chord version of a chord with these notes on the guitar. So, perhaps someone could help me out with this because this Add2 chord sounds strange. I tried to attach a screen shot of the test song that I created in BiaB but wasn't able to for some reason, so you'll have to create your own test file. I'll also mention that the track I listened to had a 12 string acoustic strumming guitar (#856), but I would think that any strumming guitar could be used.

I think I figured out what the Aadd2 chord is on the guitar that BiaB uses. Instead of having an A note on the G string, it has a B note. So, the notes would be from the second string onward are A, E, B, C#, and E. This is definitely an Aadd2 chord and isn't an easy one for me to play. But what doesn't make sense to me is why BiaB is substituting this chord for an A2 chord in my song when it recognizes an A2 chord and will substitute its A2 chord for an Asus2 chord. It must have something to do with the way it is interpreting the XML file. If so, this appears to be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

Well, I just did another test and got some more strange results. In the intro to my newest song, I entered a series of A chords to see what BiaB would do with them during its importation of the XML file. The chords I entered are as follows:

G, Am, A2, Asus, Asus2, Aadd2, and G

However, when I opened the XML file of this song, the following chords showed up in BiaB:

G, Am, Aadd2, Asus, A2, A, and G.

What this means is that BiaB is making the following chord substitutions:

A2 --> Aadd2
Asus2 --> A2
Aadd2 -- > A

The only two chords that came through without being substituted with other chords are the Am and the Asus.

Next, I added a few more chords to the intro so that the progression was as follows:

G, Am, A2, Aadd2, Asus, Asus2, Asus4, A9, Aadd9, and G

However, when I opened the XML file of this song, the following chords showed up in BiaB:

G, Am, Aadd2, Aadd2, Asus, A2, Asus, A9, Aadd2, and G.

This time, BiaB did not substitute an A chord for the Aadd2 chord but kept the Aadd2 chord intact. The chords it did substitute are as follows:

A2 --> Aadd2
Asus2 --> A2
Asus4 --> Asus
Aadd9 --> Aadd2


BiaB's practice of substituting an A2 chord for an Asus2 chord and of substituting an Aadd2 chord for an A2 chord is very confusing and corresponds to what was said in the following paragraph from the article at the first link in my OP:


"What about the C2 chord?
Finally, we come to the C2 chord. This is the odd one out, all the others follow patterns and rules that we can understand. But, not so with C2. This is the cause of so much confusion.

Usually, C2 is used to indicate a C major with a D added. Yep, you guessed it, it has exactly the same notes as the Cadd9, or the Cadd2. I say “usually”, because I have equally seen it used in place of a Csus2.

So, even though Cadd2 and Cadd9 contain the same notes, C2 and C9 never have the same notes, and that’s just confusing.

Personally, I avoid C2 as a chord name. It just doesn’t fit with the “rules”. I prefer to stick [with] the sus and add systems."


But there's more. BiaB's treatment of an Asus4 as merely an Asus chord creates even more confusion because there's more than one Asus chord, as stated in the following quote of a post on the ibreathemusic.com forum (see the link in my previous post) by a guy named Eric:


"There are two types of "sus", sus2 and sus4. When you say "Csus", which one do you mean ? Csus2 ( C-D-G ) or Csus4 ( CFG )

I didn´t say that the 7th or 9th are suspended, and I have written about sus-chords before, so I am kinda familiar with them and know it´s the third that´s suspended. I was referring to "As you guys say it, there is no difference between Aadd9 and A2"

Aadd9 has A-C#-E-B. The 2 is referred to as the 9.

So what is A2 ? The 2 would imply there´s no third in there, otherwise it would have to be called a 9. Yet, the name doesn´t mention a sus. So it should be Aadd9 ( which I guess is referred to by some people as "A2", which is confusing and technically, incorrect IMO ), according to the 2 being referred to as a 9 as long as the third is in the chord.

I didn´t make those rules, yet I do believe that it would be easier if more people would stick to them.
.
.
.
Sus means "suspended 3rd", leaving out the third. However, you need to define whether a 2 or 4 is added instead of the third. Otherwise, you get something that technically is a diad or doublestop, not exactly a chord."

Actually, this isn't true. While I'm able to change the display of an A2 to an Asus2 and of an Asus to an Asus4 (per your suggestion to right click on the Chord sheet and select "Display Options"), this would only eliminate part of the confusion that's occurring with these chord names and BiaB's chord mapping algorithm. What's still left is the Aadd2 chord, which is not the same as an A2 chord because BiaB considers an A2 chord to be the same as an Asus2 chord (excluding A2 chords that are in an XML file, of course). That's the basis for the ability to change the display option from an A2 to an Asus2. However, an Aadd2 chord sounds very different from an A2 (or Asus2) chord because it contains an additional note (the C# note that is part of the standard A chord).

So, I don't have a problem with BiaB mapping an Asus2 chord from an XML file to an A2 chord or even an Asus4 chord from that same file to an Asus chord because I can use the Display Options to revert back to the original chord names. What I do have a problem with is BiaB's mapping of an A2 chord from that file to an Aadd2 chord because it just doesn't follow the rules and causes confusion. All I can do at this point to prevent this from happening is to not use an A2 chord name at all in MuseScore but instead to use an Asus2 chord name. I also need to avoid the Asus chord name and use the Asus4 chord name instead in MuseScore. The same would be true for all other versions of these same chords (C, D, E, etc.).

I guess I spoke too soon because I just encountered another problem that occurred after I changed the Display Options settings so that a 2 chord displays as a sus2 chord and so that a sus chord displays as a sus4 chord. When I opened my second test song file to see how BiaB would map the additional A chords that I had inserted into the Intro, all of the sus chords (Asus, Asus2, Asus4) in my XML file were mapped to A chords in BiaB. Previously, the Asus and Asus4 chords were mapped to an Asus chord, and the Asus2 chord was mapped to an A2 chord. So, it appears that there are several bugs in the chord mapping portion of BiaB's XML file import algorithm that need to be fixed.

I just checked RB to see if it has this same feature but couldn't find it anywhere, so I'm assuming that RB doesn't have this feature. If it doesn't, then I would be reluctant to use the Display Options featured in BiaB because of the potential confusion that would occur when using both programs on the same song. Also, if I don't use the Display Options feature in BiaB, then it won't make sense for me to only use the sus2 and sus4 chords in MuseScore because RB will map those to the 2 and sus chords respectively. In fact, RB won't even allow me to enter the sus2 and sus4 chords because it automatically replaces them with an A2 and an Asus chord. This is not a good situation.

muzikluver,

It's great to read your observations. I believe you can tell many forum members are enjoying participating in this thread.

May I suggest you contact PG Music Support about the XML file import algorithm errors? If you attach your XML file along with a bar and beat description of the chords that are misinterpreted then they will have the content needed to correct the issue.

On another note directed at all thread participants for their thoughts, from the conversations above it appears there are three branches of western music theory: classical, jazz and popular. Each branch seems to have a slightly different definition of how an add, sustain or 2 chord is composed. I may be wrong but since song structure is jazz based I'm guessing in the program chord names also follow jazz music theory convention.

Thanks for mentioning the three branches of western music theory, Jim. I wasn't aware of that, but I was thinking that BiaB probably follows jazz music theory convention. Also, I will take you up on your suggestion for me to contact PG Music Support about the XML file import algorithm errors because that appears to be the proper step for me to take next with these issues. However, I would like to know if RB has the same Display Options feature that BiaB has (as Noel mentioned in a previous post).

I have never used xml, how exactly does that work in Biab? Have you already created a new song including the style then import the xml file or does the importing itself create a new song project and then you select the style? The reason for this question is my point earlier that styles many times determine how the chords are handled. Also, in my earlier reply I touched on the differences between the chords in a midi style vs an RT or hybrid style. Musickluver, are you talking midi styles or RT styles here?

Fundamentally if you want exact chord voicings then you need to write midi notation for that, it won't do anything for RT's because you get whatever voicing that was recorded in the studio so that's midi only. When you talk about your Add 2 chord, for every note in it you can have a different inversion (voicing) and if you add a slash bass note then you could have 5 or 6 appropriate voicings.

When you get into the weeds of specific chord names and voicings you really need to understand the theory behind that. Basically you think outside the box, think about what am I trying to do harmonically and find a way to get Biab to do it because as I said earlier as an AI music software, it tends to want to do things it's way. This is the whole rationale behind the program and it's name Band-in-a-Box. You get to have a virtual band of great musicians, give them the song structure and "basic chords" and they can come up with several different versions of your song for you. It's not designed to perfectly execute what you tell it to do.

Bob

Let me try to jump on this roller coaster ride.

First, I don't enter chords from xml, so perhaps I am not really getting the point here. But assuming we are talking about midi play of the chord chart, BIAB will interpret what chords you enter and play something different each time you hit play. That is the way the program works - auto accompaniment generation not midi playback. So you really don't have any easy control over voicing of a chord or whether or not BIAB plays a third against your A2 or Asus2 or A9. In addition to that, BIAB is not a notation program where the chord chart is explicit to the playback. The chords drive the accompaniment engine. This is all. So I think you guys are over analyzing this whole thing. But that may just be me. So carry on.

Edit: Apparently Bob was typing as I was. I think we said the same thing, although he may have said it better.

Dan

If you are spelling those notes from the bottom (root) to top, then I think you're describing an Aadd9. The B is an octave and a step above the A. But I'm not a guitarist...

That's an interesting suggestion, Jim. From BIAB's origin, which we know was to be able to jam on jazz fakebook tunes, the answer would be jazz. But I would be interested in learning more about any difference in jazz and classical theory in regards to chord naming. It's just that jazz often uses a lot of upper extensions, but I am not aware of anything that clashes with classical theory.

I agree, the only disagreements tend to be how to describe certain chords in fakebook charts. Spelling out a Cm7b9 vs calling it a half diminished showing a C with the little circle with a line through it is one. There are many others like spelling out a Cmaj7 vs a C with the little triangle.

The other common discussion is what's the definition of a chorus vs a verse. Biab calls a chorus the whole song which is the classical way while common use rock, blues, country, pop doesn't do that, it's called verse, bridge, solo. I never heard band members refer to the whole song as a chorus. Jazz usually refers to Sections like AABA with a tag or whatever.

Biab did address that some years ago with the Song Section function where you can enter on a grid Sections A, B, C, D, etc and rearrange the playback that way.

And Dan, yes we said basically the same thing but you said it briefer. Good job.

Bob

My standard process is to enter the notes of my song first into MuseScore. Then I figure out all the chords and enter them into MuseScore. After that, I export an XML file that contains all the notes and the chords so that I can test the sound of the chord progression with the melody in BiaB. Normally, I try to select an appropriate style first, but sometimes I forget and just use what's already left in BiaB from a previous song. There have been a few times that I didn't have BiaB open already, so I end up starting with the default that shows up when I open the program, which will be the style that I had used with the last song I had worked on. This can be problematic, however, when the song I want to open has a 4/4 time signature and the current or previously used style is a 3/4 time signature or vice versa. (This has also happened a few times when BiaB was already open but had a style with the wrong time signature already selected.) When this happens, and I don't catch it, BiaB will replace the current style with the default jazz style with a 4/4 time signature. (I don't think BiaB does this if a 4/4 style is already selected and I open a song that has a 3/4 time signature because of its ability to drop the fourth beat in each measure.) That's what happened when I opened my most recent test song file. But I didn't notice this until after I read your post. So, I thought that this may have been why the three sus chords were replaced with standard A chords and decided to re-open my first test song file with a pre-selected style that has the proper time signature (4/4). To keep things simple, I selected the _CMPFMDS.STY style, which is a medium strumming folk acoustic guitar style. While this style has the potential for five tracks. four of those tracks are midi tracks, and the fifth is a RT acoustic guitar (~405).

So, when I re-opened my first test song file with this style already selected, all of my Asus chords (I had one Asus chord and one Asus2 chord in the intro, and I had one Asus2 chord in the middle of the first verse) and Add2 chords (I also had one Aadd2 chord in the intro) were replaced with standard A chords, which is very similar to what had happened with my previous test song file when BiaB switched to the default jazz style when I opened the XML file because of the time signature mismatch. This is the first time I've ever seen this happen because I never used the Asus, Asus2, or Aadd2 chords in my songs before. In fact, this didn't even happen the first time I had opened the same test song file, which I had reported in one of my previous posts. Instead, these three chords in my intro were mapped to an Asus, A2, and A chord respectively. IOW, only the Aadd2 chord was mapped to a standard A chord previously. But the fact that BiaB did very similar chord mapping this time with two different styles (one a complex jazz style and the other a simple folk style) suggests to me that there actually may be a problem with the chord mapping algorithm that doesn't pertain to the "voicings" that you mentioned in your next two paragraphs, which is another perspective that I was not aware of, so I'll respond to that next.


I'm not sure what you mean by your suggestion for me to "write midi notation" if I "want exact chord voicings," but if you're referring to the notes in my XML file, they always come through into BiaB as a midi track. So, I don't understand why BiaB would map an Asus chord to an A chord when the note in the middle of my song's first verse that is associated with that chord is a B note, which is the note that is used to replace the C# note in the A chord to create the Asus chord. (I'm referring here, of course, to the Asus2 chord and not the Asus4 chord.) Now, my intro doesn't have any notes in it, so I also don't understand why BiaB would map a series of three modified A chords (Asus, Asus2, and Aadd2) to standard A chords, especially when these three chords were preceded by an A2 chord, which automatically gets mapped to an Aadd2 chord. I know there are lots of songs that have an alternating series of standard D and modified D chords (D2, D6, D7, D9, etc.) occurring at certain places in their overall chord progression, so I don't see why the same thing can't be done with standard A and modified A chords (as in my test song file), and I don't understand why BiaB would map all three of the modified A chords in this short series to standard A chords. Though I could be wrong about this because of my limited experience with BiaB, your "voicings" explanation doesn't seem to fit the picture very well in this particular case.

I know what you're referring to, Dan, because I've heard enough of BiaB's slight deviations from the chords in the Chord sheet window in the arrangements that I've used it to generate. While some of these deviations have been acceptable to me, others have not been acceptable, so I simply generated another arrangement until BiaB produced one that didn't have any unacceptable deviations.

The issue I'm addressing in this thread, however, pertains to the actual chord names that show up in the chord sheet window BEFORE I click on the Generate button to create an arrangement. If those chords are not the same as the chords in my XML file, then I know I'm going to have issues with the arrangement. For example, putting a standard A chord over a note that isn't in a standard A chord (a B note) is just not acceptable, just as putting a D chord over a C note isn't acceptable either.

Bob, did you ever hear the expression “take a(nother) chorus”? It means solo (or continue to solo) over the form of the whole song.

Gotta say,

I've been really enjoying this thread.

It reminds me of a very spirited discussion on Talkbass I participated in some years ago with the blasphemous title/thesis "The Myth of Modes" (which I attacked with quite a bit of vigor).

At some point I brought up sus chords and was challenged by a prominent jazz musician regarding my interpretation.

Managed to dig it up. The sus chord discussion begins on page 15 if anyone is interested... https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-myth-of-modes.1199799/page-15

And I think Bob may have meant to write Cm7b5 as a half-diminished chord. Not Cm7b9. Unless I’m missing something.

Unfortunately we now have several interesting parallel threads going here, making it hard to follow. Chord theory, Music XML to BIAB, BIAB’s unique way of playing a chord, etc. Each deserves a separate discussion. And the Music XML import has another thread in which I showed how (right or wrong) BIAB handles several chords as a 2 chord. I believe that Jim’s suggestion to contact PG Music Support with specifics about the initial problem, importing chords with Music XML into BIAB, is a good one. Let’s clear up if something is not right about that before continuing down this road.

b5 is correct, DUH.

I think we've narrowed this thread down to two different points.

!. The XML import. There's been a lot written about how different programs handle that and none of them are perfect but get close. Support is a good idea, they may be able to clean that up.

2. Biab styles changing chords. This is standard Biab practice, it's built in and is the reason for it's existence. There have been several enhancements to get it closer to playing exactly what a user enters but none are perfect because that's not what the program is designed to do. Simple Chords will stop the program from adding extensions for example like changing a D7 to a D#9 or something but it has nothing to do with you wanting an exact version of that A2 chord.

To answer the question about different chord voicings and why you may want to use midi notation to make those exact. Right now you're talking about pretty simple chords and it may not matter to you if an A2 chord is voiced on a guitar with say A on the top string and the other notes below it. I'm sure though if you are a good guitarist you already know you can play that chord in 3 or 4 other positions on the neck and each one has a different sound to it.

If you're picky you may want one of those other positions for the chord and Biab won't give you that consistently. It may give you just one voicing for it or maybe it cycles through a few other positions every time you regenerate. That is controlled by the style weighting. Weighting is a percentage of change in the various style elements. Open up the Stylemaker and take a good look at how that works.

If you've decided you want one and only one version of that chord then you can't have Biab keep regenerating that track. Maybe the other tracks are ok but use one track as a midi guitar track and then use notation to write in the exact chord position you want by using the guitar tab screen. Of course once you've done that remember to freeze that track so if you regenerate the song the other tracks may change but the frozen one won't.

Bob

Right; well said.

Or take the song into RealBand, where you can regenerate just part of a track.

That all sounds good to me, Bob (and Matt). Your observation that my chords are pretty basic is correct. I'm not writing songs that use complex jazz chords, so I really don't have a problem with most of what BiaB does with its arrangements of my songs. Currently, I also mostly stick to basic acoustic guitar styles that consist of strumming and finger picking (with a piano accompaniment available as well in some instances) and occasionally some rock guitar styles. So, it usually doesn't take me long to generate an arrangement that I'm happy with---as long as the style I've chosen is appropriate for the song.

The main issue for me in this thread is how BiaB maps the chords in my XML file to its chord sheet. The 2, sus, and add chords are the only ones I've encountered any problems with that have forced me to manually make changes to the chords in the chord sheet. For short songs with only one or two instances of such chords, it's really not a big deal---more of a nuisance than anything else. But with longer songs that have multiple instances of such chords, it quickly becomes a pain in the rear, especially if I keep making changes to the song that result in me having to repeatedly import a new XML file after making those changes in MuseScore. So, it would be nice if I didn't have to deal with this issue. It would also be nice if BiaB handled these chords more sensibly or at least gave the user the option to control how some chords are mapped, as in being able to map an A2 chord to an A2 chord rather than to an Aadd2, and being able to map an Asus2 chord to an Asus2 chord rather than to an A2 chord.

Send representative example files to PG Music Support support@pgmusic.com

It's a good question. Let's find out the answer.

<<< The 2, sus, and add chords are the only ones I've encountered any problems with that have forced me to manually make changes to the chords in the chord sheet.>>>

For multiple chord errors and if BIAB recognizes both the correct and incorrect chords, you can search and replace multiple chord errors in the following manner:



Edit\Chords (w)\search/replace chords...

and specify the changes in the window that opens.

Thanks for the tip, Charlie. I didn't know that capability was available. I've already used it several times today and really like the fact that it retains the previously entered chord change info so that I don't have to enter it again.

Glad that helped you out a bit. I've found it's a useful utility in cleaning up songs analyzed by the Audio Chord Wizard. The ACW seems to read a chord erroneously over and over in an analysis and this utility makes short work in correcting to the right chord.

Can confirm...

It drove me nuts how again and again it interpreted every instance of Fmaj7 I used in a given song as F/A.

I experimented with multiple voicings at various points on my fretboard after making sure my guitar was 100 percent in tune, (something I'm incredibly particular about anyway), and I could not get it to display a Maj7.

FWIW, I now recall this was before the revamped ACW so I don't know if that may have improved...(although as an aside, there were certain elements to the old one I preferred so I'm happy that it's still possible to use either).

In RapidComposer I can set the notes and aliases names for each chord.
I can add a So What chord Csowhat

Pipeline, how does this relate to the problems I've discovered with BiaB's incorrect interpretation of certain chords during its importation of XML files? I'm familiar with RapidComposer, but it's an entirely different program that I don't have and don't plan to obtain any time soon.

Bob, I know that I had previously replied to your post, but I just wanted to also say that most of what you said here went completely over my head at the time because I didn't understand what you meant by "voicings" until some time after I had replied without really knowing where you were coming from. (DUH!) If I had looked up the word "voicings" or asked you to explain this term, my reply would have been very different from what it was.

Jim, I finally got around to writing an email to Tech Support about this issue. The reason it took me so long is that I was in the middle of writing a new song (actually two new songs) when I discovered these problems, so I didn't want to lose my songwriting momentum by taking the time to create all the test files I would need to send to Tech Support with an explanation of these problems in an email. Below is the text of my email along with two links. One link is to this thread, and the other link is to a ZIP file of all the files I created for my tests:

"Dear Technical Support,

I recently discovered some problems with BiaB's importing of chords in XML files that affects the "2," "sus2," "sus4," and "add2" chords. There are two aspects to these problems. One aspect pertains to BiaB's interpretation (via substitution or mapping) of these chords when they are imported, and the other aspect pertains to the settings in the Display Options settings for the "2" and "sus2" chords. Because it would be difficult for me to explain all the different scenarios that have occurred during my importation of XML files with these chords into BiaB, I am providing you with a link to a ZIP file that contains all the files that I've used to perform and document my tests. The information in these files should be self-explanatory. All three of the XML files and all three of the PDF files were created from MuseScore 2.1. The PDF files will show you the lead sheets as they were created in MuseScore and exported to XML. The six BiaB MGX files correspond respectively in pairs to each of the XML files with a "b" version and a non "b" version. The "b" versions were created importing the same XML file as the non "b" version but only after changing the Display Options settings to that the "2" and the "sus2" chords will display as "sus" and "sus4" chords respectively and then saved with these settings. The RTF file contains a list of all the A chord variants that are in each XML file and what those chords ended up being in BiaB after they were imported. The notes at the bottom of the RTF file further explain the test results and the different scenarios under which those results occurred. Prior to importing these XML files, I made sure that I had selected a style that was compatible with the song settings in my lead sheet, which was the _CMPFMDS.STY with a time signature of 4/4 and an even 8 feel. If you have any questions about these files or the results of my tests, please let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Below is a link to the ZIP file that I uploaded to my Box account and a link to the BiaB Forum thread that I started on 7/13/19 to discuss and identify the specific nature of these problems. Thanks for your help!

https://app.box.com/s/qcusj5d81fmx8s5ym3y6x90fuwnvr2nu

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=545344#Post545344

Tom"

It has more user control that would be good in Biab so if you import/type a chord in the Biab you get it to recognize that chord as xxxx.

Reaper's not like George who knows all the chords.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209607

So, Reaper has a similar problem as BiaB has?

Biab reads the chord names in the musicxml but changes to it's equivalent, where as Reaper can't read the more complex chords in the musicxml yet.

I’m very interested to read PG Music’s reply about this.

When you say Biab changes it to it's equivalent that is similar to what I've discovered about the Stylemaker. That other thread in the Wishlist forum about all the problems with complex chords and bass lines exposed this. I just watched the only video I could find on Youtube about the Stylemaker and it's from 1997. It's exactly the same as we just talked about last week in the other thread, nothing's changed that I can see.

In the vid the guy made one telling comment almost as a quick aside. He said even though you can specify a chord type in the Stylemaker for a given instrument and give it weighting and all that stuff, Biab can and will change it depending on what Biab thinks it should be. This is the "secret sauce" we've all talked about for years. The Stylemaker does control a lot of things but still, Biab is the boss and can decide to do it's own thing.

This goes back to what I've been saying for years and I'm not defending it, it's just the way it is. Biab is not designed to take input from a user and give it back as that exact chord arrangement. It will take what you give it and "intelligently" interpret it for you similar to what a group of real musicians would do. That's how it's advertised and that's what it does.

How far the developers can go in modifying that or are willing to is completely unknown to us users and they never talk about it to us either.

Bob

Next version of BIAB AI: menu:

* play what I've asked you to play
* play what you think you should play
* play what you think I should've asked you to play

Any takers...?

That's awesome! Love it!!

I think he's referring to what BiaB does when it creates the chord sheet, not what it does to those chords after than when it generates the tracks for each instrument, which is what you're referring to. I had one electric guitar (that I had added to a standard style) that kept playing something other than a C chord at different places in the song. Each time i regenerated the track for this instrument, that chord would move to a different place in the song and was clashing with the rest of the instruments every time. It took at least 10 re-generations of that track before I finally got BiaB to do what I wanted it to do.

Yes, I understand that but I'm looking a bit deeper. The question is why is someone using XML to import the chords into Biab? There's only two reasons.

One is so they can have good notation in Biab. Why would they need that, they already have good notation in Musescore. If they're using another music program that does not give them good notation and they want Biab for that and that's all they want, fine. Biab can provide good notation even if the written chords play differently. But, pretty much everybody also wants:

Two, the song to also play correctly. That means populating the chord grid to generate the song and have Biab play those exact chords in those exact places. That in turn leads to what I just wrote. Biab may or may not do that by design.

Bob

Bob, I would like this to work.

I don't play piano or guitar. Let's say I have a leadsheet, and I want to enter the song into BIAB so I can hear how it goes (yes, I can hear it in my head, but that's not the same). I could enter it into BIAB by hand, or try to find a more efficient way using import of Music XML.

To get the leadsheet into XML, there are several possibilities. One is, I'm using a notation program and I export it as Music XML format if supported. Another is that I have a PDF or printed sheet music, and I use a program to scan that and export it into Music XML.

If it's just a chord progression, many here have requested that BIAB allow importing of an ASCII text file or some similar format, maybe a spreadsheet, of just chords. Something like you might be able to find on many guitar chord sites.

This and related threads talk about how BIAB may interpret a chord in Music XML and change it in BIAB. I definitely want to know more about that.

-------------------

As an aside, having studied the code, my issue with Music XML is that it is a great idea with sometimes poor implementation. It's very verbose, and it's like working with a compiled language where the compiler tells you nothing about whatever the syntax error may be. You mentioned Musescore, and so far, that is the best software I've found to give me at least a clue of what (or where) the error is, rather than simply aborting the import.

Bob, neither one of your answers is a complete answer that describes my situation. I use XML to import both the chords and the melody into BiaB from a lead sheet that I created in MuseScore, which is the means by which I create a tangible representation of my songs that are in my head. For me, it isn't just about the chords because chords by themselves don't comprise a song. For me, it's primarily about the melody. However, a melody by itself is not sufficient for BiaB to generate an arrangement from because BiaB's arrangements are mostly chord based. I say "mostly" because BiaB has also used my imported melodies to create melodic motifs in the arrangement that are not on my lead sheet. My lead sheet only has the melody that goes with the lyrics---one note per syllable. This is why BiaB has been so beneficial to me in my songwriting endeavors. By importing both the melody and chords into BiaB from an XML file that was created from my lead sheet within MuseScore enables BiaB to create a very intelligent and sensible arrangement of my songs that rivals that of a professional studio---especially when I use the Bar settings function to turn various instruments on and off along with the part markers to switch the drum track from the "a" version to the "b" version and back again. So, whenever BiaB decides to "do it's own thing" with my chord progression per your explanation in a previous post, I usually have to regenerate one or more instruments that end up playing a chord or two that clash with my melody and sometimes with the other instruments as well. This happened to me on my most recent song because an electric guitar that I added to the standard style kept playing a chord other than a C chord in various places in my song. But I was able to get BiaB to make that guitar get the C chord right after about ten re-generations of that one instrument.

Ok, that's exactly what my #2 is and the good news is it's working pretty well for you. Sure, sometimes you have to do a bunch of regen's to get it to give you what you want and that's normal too. I think you already know you can save yourself those manual regen's by putting the song in Real Band and using the multiriff function or use the Biab plugin multiriffs in a DAW.

Bob

Yeah, I know that in my head, Bob, but I haven't actually been able to do that yet with one of my songs because of an issue I encountered with the fixed labels for each track in the Bars dialog box in RB when I had tried to accomplish this on a song a couple of weeks ago. (This is why I started a new topic in the RB forum about this issue a few days ago to find out if there was a known solution to it.) But instead of taking the time to figure out the steps I needed to take to work around this issue, I decided to split my song in two sections and repeatedly re-generate one of the instruments until it sounded the way I wanted it to. Then I exported both sections of my song into WAV files that I pieced together in Traction.

Hello guys. I have a similar problem. Sometimes I can't enter the chord I wish. Could someone please tell me how to enter the following chords? (That's how I would name them, the notes and the degree in the key of C)

G7add13 g-d-f-b-e (V)
G7add13b g-d-f-b-eb (V)
Fmaj9/5b f-a-e-g-b (IV)

Thanks a lot!


I'd wish I could enter singles notes and let BiB name them however it wants. Does anybody know wether the 2019 BiB Version supports that?

Have you checked out the list of chords that BiaB recognizes at the link below on PG Music's support page? Perhaps it will answer your questions:

https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_chordlist.htm

Matt, I received the following reply from Tech Support today after I had sent them some additional info that they requested about my system:

"Hello Tom,

Great, thank you for this information. This is a known issue right now and we would recommend keeping an eye out on our support page for future patch updates that address XML import issues:

https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm

It also wouldn't hurt to update to our new build 632 to cover other bug fixes you have missed thus far: https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#632

We appreciate you taking the time to provide such a detail report of your experience symptoms.

Thank you,
Ember
PG Music Inc."