You can select a range of bars or the entire song. You can also select which RealTrack to take the riffs from. You can then solo each of the generations (or even play multiple ones simultaneously).
I understand that the output is designed to go to a DAW, but there may be ways to direct the output to BiaB, (maybe an enhancement is required to deliver this).
<< there may be ways to direct the output to BiaB >>
Yes there is.
It saves 7 WAV files and these can be comped or you can choose to use one or any combination and import these snippets back into the BIAB project onto the Audio Channel.
You can select a range of bars or the entire song. You can also select which RealTrack to take the riffs from. You can then solo each of the generations (or even play multiple ones simultaneously).
I understand that the output is designed to go to a DAW, but there may be ways to direct the output to BiaB, (maybe an enhancement is required to deliver this).
Thanks VT!
I just read that and I am already concerned that they (apparently) didn't fully integrate this into BIAB but instead output the multiriffs as WAV files that are no longer integrated with your BIAB song!
So what happens when I have generated 10 different sections? Do I now have to export my main song as WAV and piece together all of those 10 sections? Or does BIAB automatically piece it all together for me into a single coherent track?
EDIT: I asked for a padding option for the multiriifs so it will add blank audio from bar -1 to the start of the riff, so for now when you import the riff set it to start on the bar where the riff starts. And also I noticed the drag n drop Audio Import is working BUT it only shows up to bar 6 in the Audio Edit window so that is useless at the moment, and the floating Audio Edit doesn't support drag n drop at the moment.
PG will most likely make a video for this. But I will just let you know that if you need a riff for a song, you first drag your master of the current song to WAV then out to a folder. Now select the bars where you want the MultiRiff, Right click a track up the top > Select RealTracks > Generate MultiRiffs, choose instrument, File > Import > Import Audio > select the song master.wav In the Mixer bottom right click AUDIO to show Audio track, click it's solo now right click track 1 solo Play now right click track 1 solo now right click track 2 solo and so on until you find a riff that fits. You can Import that Riff from C:\bb\DragDrop into the Audio track of the original song.
<< there may be ways to direct the output to BiaB >>
Yes there is.
It saves 7 WAV files and these can be comped or you can choose to use one or any combination and import these snippets back into the BIAB project onto the Audio Channel.
Thanks Charlie, yes, that is correct. But it uses another track as the destination (Audio). I'm not sure then that you could multi-riff more than one track once the Audio track had already been used for a previous track's multi-riff. This is only a guess, I don't profess to really know.
<< there may be ways to direct the output to BiaB >>
Yes there is.
It saves 7 WAV files and these can be comped or you can choose to use one or any combination and import these snippets back into the BIAB project onto the Audio Channel.
Charlie, thanks for the feedback.
When you say they can be comped and imported back into the audio channel, does it know where to put them? Or maybe it saves blank space before the multiriff begins?
And what happens when I have a bunch of multiriffs generated? For example, maybe I generate multiriffs for piano bars 2, 17, 21-29 and 30. Then I generate multiriffs for guitar bars 10-13, 22-24 and 45. Is that a total of 49 WAV files (7 x 7) that are stored? And how in the world would BIAB reassemble those on the audio channel?
I suspect you (or someone) is going to explain some limitation as to how many sets of multiriffs can be generated for a single BIAB song because otherwise this gets incredibly messy very quickly.
Seems like just replacing the selected bars with new RealTrack references would have made for a much cleaner implementation. If I freeze my tracks and save my BIAB song, next time I open it BIAB is capable of retrieving the proper set of RealTrack riffs and reassemble the song for me. I'd love if it did the multiriffs that way as well.
just remember this is not RB or the plugin it is not a typical DAW. true comping is best done in a typical DAW.
Yeah I get that but while working in BIAB I am NOT comping yet! I am still building the song. Maybe I'll add a prechorus or another verse or an outro, etc.
I was really hoping they would do something like this,
1) let me select bars to regenerate 2) bring in 7 riffs 3) let me pick one 4) replace what was previously on those bars with the new RealTrack riffs
This would keep the song intact in native BIAB format with references to the RealTracks. And I could just repeat the process as many times as I want on multiple tracks until I get everything just right before exporting WAVs. Then, when I am ready, I'd move to my DAW.
Alas, it sounds like it will be more complicated that that.
When you say they can be comped and imported back into the audio channel, does it know where to put them? Or maybe it saves blank space before the multiriff begins?
And what happens when I have a bunch of multiriffs generated? For example, maybe I generate multiriffs for piano bars 2, 17, 21-29 and 30. Then I generate multiriffs for guitar bars 10-13, 22-24 and 45. Is that a total of 49 WAV files (7 x 7) that are stored? And how in the world would BIAB reassemble those on the audio channel?
I suspect you (or someone) is going to explain some limitation as to how many sets of multiriffs can be generated for a single BIAB song because otherwise this gets incredibly messy very quickly.
Seems like just replacing the selected bars with new RealTrack references would have made for a much cleaner implementation. If I freeze my tracks and save my BIAB song, next time I open it BIAB is capable of retrieving the proper set of RealTrack riffs and reassemble the song for me. I'd love if it did the multiriffs that way as well.
Each multi riff is saved as an individual WAV file in the DAW Dropbox folder. Each multi Riff can be the whole track or just a portion of bars. What can be comped in BIAB so far as I can tell from the time I've experimented with it are the portions. Multiple clips can be combined into a single track. Usually a riff of just a few bars. Using a riff, if they are repeating throughout the song, all seven riffs could be placed onto the Audio Track at various bars so that though the riff repeats, every repeat will be a slightly different regeneration. In your example of generating multiple files from multiple instruments, you will choose from the various snippets of audio and can mix between the various instruments and insert them all onto a single audio track. Assembly of the track is done manually from the insert audio menu window. This audio track can be converted to a Performance Track and the process repeated with again from the multi riffs in the drop box folder. This has been possible for some time except in the past, entire tracks had to be generated and the Audio track opened in a DAW to extract the individual riffs.
Comments by Dr. Gannon in another thread discussing multi riffs indicate there may be enhancements to streamline multi riff use within the BIAB project but initially, it was thought the multi riffs would primarily be moved to a DAW and used there.
EDIT: I asked for a padding option for the multiriifs so it will add blank audio from bar -1 to the start of the riff, so for now when you import the riff set it to start on the bar where the riff starts. And also I noticed the drag n drop Audio Import is working BUT it only shows up to bar 6 in the Audio Edit window so that is useless at the moment, and the floating Audio Edit doesn't support drag n drop at the moment. And the midi drag n drop is not working in the piano roll yet:
Thanks Charlie, yes, that is correct. But it uses another track as the destination (Audio). I'm not sure then that you could multi-riff more than one track once the Audio track had already been used for a previous track's multi-riff. This is only a guess, I don't profess to really know.
The Audio Track can be converted to a Performance Track and moved to another channel so although there's only a single Audio Channel, it can be used over and over.
This process will work exceptionally well with bouncing various styles, combinations of Performance Tracks and using multiple instruments on the individual channels to create quite complex arrangements.
Because the BIAB generation engine reads ahead, BIAB does really good and accurate cross fades between the changes throughout a track.
Also, because this editing is being done digitally until rendered, there's no drops in quality of the bounces.
This sounds quite complicated so far. Maybe it will make more sense to me once I try it myself.
As another example, let's say I use the multiriff feature on bars 5-8 of the piano and also on 5-8 of the guitar. To bring this back into BIAB on the audio channel does it combine those into a single track? If so I have lost the ability to later handle them separately in the DAW.
Also, what happens to the bars I am replacing in my song? Do they get erased? If not, how can I ever hear the new multiriffs in context inside BIAB?
This is the easiest way of all to do it, you can have as many Plugins as you like in BB all with 21 tracks, the plugin will also let you load an Audio track in to sync playback to. But there is a sync issue at the moment: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ys5cguc2uxbr9xc/BB-BB-VST-Multiriffs2.mp4?dl=0
This is the easiest way of all to do it, you can have as many Plugins as you like in BB all with 21 tracks, the plugin will also let you load an Audio track in to sync playback to. But there is a sync issue at the moment: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ys5cguc2uxbr9xc/BB-BB-VST-Multiriffs2.mp4?dl=0
But now you're back to complete tracks and not bar by bar, right? Plus, as you noted, there is a synch issue.
To me this all sounds too complex for the typical BIAB user.
You might be looking for bar by bar regeneration but you can't do that with Biab MultiRiffs as you loose your current tracks when it starts a new session with 7 new tracks. You then choose one of those tracks and import it back into the Audio track of you original song as I described in an earlier post. What I described with using the BB Plugin allows you to have all the separate tracks within the one instance of Biab until you are ready to transfer to the DAW by simple drag n drop. When the Audio Edit drag n drop is fixed you can drag sections out of the BB Plugin directly into the Audio Edit track at any bar. I'm sure the sync issue will be fixed very soon.
You might be looking for bar by bar regeneration but you can't do that with Biab MultiRiffs as you loose your current tracks when it starts a new session with 7 new tracks. You then choose one of those tracks and import it back into the Audio track of you original song as I described in an earlier post. What I described with using the BB Plugin allows you to have all the separate tracks within the one instance of Biab until you are ready to transfer to the DAW by simple drag n drop. When the Audio Edit drag n drop is fixed you can drag sections out of the BB Plugin directly into the Audio Edit track at any bar. I'm sure the sync issue will be fixed very soon.
Thanks Pipeline but I am really not following you!
What tracks do I lose?
What is a new session?
And what do you mean that BIAB can't do "bar by bar" regeneration?
Finally, if I understand your suggestion you are saying it is better to use the VST plugin on tracks instead of the new built-in multiriff feature?
I really appreciate your help and apologize in advance for my not understanding; I suspect you are giving me some good info!!
When you > Select RealTracks > Generate MultiRiffs.. if you are still in your current song (session) it will DELETE your current tracks and replace them with 7 tracks with the same selected instrument (This still needs to be fixed and implemented by PG, a "Do you want to Save Current Song" is needed when MultiRiff is selected and the new MultiRiff Song (session) will be Saved as Current Song - MultiRiffs.SGU if you hit Save/As)
What is a new session? new Song
And what do you mean that BIAB can't do "bar by bar" regeneration? You are not generating MultiRiffs over the selected bars of a current instrument.
Finally, if I understand your suggestion you are saying it is better to use the VST plugin on tracks instead of the new built-in multiriff feature? Using the BB MultiRiffs feature the MultiRiffs would be in one Song session.SGU and your actual Song will be in another .SGU where as if you use the BB Plugin in BB you can have all the song tracks as well as all the MultiRiffs for all instruments in the one Song session.SGU that you can play back in sync with with the existing BB tracks and this allows for so many options like dragging sections out of the BB Plugin directly into the Audio Edit track to create the exact track you need. As I mentioned above in the How To MultiRiffs Biab Guide you load a downmix master of your current song you want the riffs for into the Audio track, so you will have 7 riffs and the Audio track, you solo the Audio track and solo one of the MultiRiff tracks and hit Play, repeat this soloing each riff until you find one that fits best. Then you import that track into the actual Song.SGU Audio track. So that's the 2 ways to do MultiRiffs (unless you want to RealBand).
Pipeline, thank you so much for 1) understanding this and 2) sharing that understanding with the rest of us!
The new multiriff feature seems too complicated for me to use effectively. I will try your plugin multiriff technique and if that does not work for me I'll just keep doing what someone here suggested a long time ago...
1) Save final song with all tracks frozen. 2) Unfreeze and regenerate any tracks I need. Freeze and save again as a new song. 3) Repeat #2 until I get enough options and then comp it all in the DAW
I was so hopeful for bar by bar, in-place RealTrack regeneration. Oh well.
Do I just select bars and then generate multiriffs? How do I indicate which track to generate them for?
How is the time? Does it generate a small set of bars, say 4 bars, really quickly?
Do you have to freeze everything else to get this to work?
Just very curious as to how this has been implemented. I'll be upgrading before the sale ends but kinda curious now.
no problems here... I selected 8 bars, from my BB arrangement,and then selected the "multiriff" command... BIAB quickly generated 7 variations of a solo guitar RT... I then dragged them into my DAW project... Cutting & pasting together those 7 "multiriffs" I was able to construct one killer middle 8 lead ride... worked great... I'm very happy with this excellent new feature.
<< I use the multiriff feature on bars 5-8 of the piano and also on 5-8 of the guitar. To bring this back into BIAB on the audio channel does it combine those into a single track? If so I have lost the ability to later handle them separately in the DAW. >>
In BIAB, no, it does not combine those into a single track. You will have 7 separate WAV's of the 4 bars of piano and 7 separate WAV's of the 4 separate bars of the guitar. I haven't tried this yet with any of the new Multi Riff segments of audio but in prior versions of BIAB I have imported different segments of audio and edited those segments on the Audio Channel using the audio editor tools. cut/copy/paste, normalize, silence, amplify, fade in, and fade out. The PGM Audio Plug in's are also available from the top Tool Bar at Audio\Plugin for compressor, gate, gain edits, chorus, flanger and other plugins.
It's my thought that all 14 of the Multi Riff individual WAV's can be imported into the Audio Channel and edited using the various editing tools to comp one or more individual Multi Riffs to drop into a custom Audio Channel and then use Bar Settings to Mute and Unmute audio segment inserts between a RealTrack Channel and the custom audio channel. They can be mixed and matched as desired between the piano audio and guitar audio. This process is much easier and faster than it appears as I've written it out. I can almost always edit a single audio track faster than opening a DAW and exporting and importing between the DAW and BIAB.
An easier way to do this with two instruments though is to utilize the feature that multiple instruments can be placed on each track to program back and forth replacing of a Piano and Guitar on the same track. Whereas using audio multi riffs would allow such a channel to be more customized and complex.
<<Also, what happens to the bars I am replacing in my song? Do they get erased? If not, how can I ever hear the new multiriffs in context inside BIAB? >>
Once you've generated the seven multi riffs and they've replaced the song's tracks with the seven multi riffs and they're saved to the drop box, Ctrl-Z will revert the mixer back to the original tracks.
If you Right click and open the menu at the WAV box of the drop menu, the individual tracks can be auditioned.
Here's yet another way, I freeze the BB tracks without generating, add Band-in-a-Box DAW VST FX Plugin.dll to each RealTrack/Drum On a midi track I add MiniHost in that I load Band-in-a-Box DAW VST Plugin.dll and send it out to A virtual instrument in this case EZKeys. You can add any FX you like after the BB VST.
In each BB Plugin I can load a MultiRiff of the same instrument, I can load different drums in the BB Plugin on the Drum track, I can load lot of different SuperMidiTracks in the BB Plugin in MiniHost. Now I 38 tracks in BB that I can solo and choose the best combination. If the song's chords are changed you just load that SGU into each plugin.
I was so looking forward to this feature only to find out it wasn't true. It is so unworkable that you might as well just do it inside a DAW. You would think that by now PGMusic would have found a way to have more than 7 tracks in Band In A Box. I wonder what their programmers have been working on all of these years?
I was so looking forward to this feature only to find out it wasn't true. It is so unworkable that you might as well just do it inside a DAW. You would think that by now PGMusic would have found a way to have more than 7 tracks in Band In A Box. I wonder what their programmers have been working on all of these years?
What's not true? The multiriff feature worked perfectly for me... 7 variations of a selected region of a chosen realtrack, generated quickly, and saved to BB/DragDrop folder. from there, I Copied & Pasted to my Cakewalk project folder, to be dragged into my project... back in Biab, typing Ctrl+z reverts me back to previous state of saved song.
I was so looking forward to this feature only to find out it wasn't true. It is so unworkable that you might as well just do it inside a DAW. You would think that by now PGMusic would have found a way to have more than 7 tracks in Band In A Box. I wonder what their programmers have been working on all of these years?
What's not true? The multiriff feature worked perfectly for me... 7 variations of a selected region of a chosen realtrack, generated quickly, and saved to BB/DragDrop folder. from there, I Copied & Pasted to my Cakewalk project folder, to be dragged into my project... back in Biab, typing Ctrl+z reverts me back to previous state of saved song.
I think most of us were hoping for the ability to simply choose some bars inside our song and have BIAB offer several options to replace them with. Right there inline. In our active song. Similar to how they already do it in Realband. Then, once we chose the preferred replacement bars we'd just save our song or export it just like we do now to finish our production. How it was implemented seems much more complex than that.
I think most of us were hoping for the ability to simply choose some bars inside our song and have BIAB offer several options to replace them with. Right there inline. In our active song. Similar to how they already do it in Realband.
I must admit, that was my understanding of how this should fundamentally work. I don't think it should be necessary to use a separate DAW, or to create performance tracks, or to use other tracks to manage the output.
They could be options, sure, but as a base function, the results should be able to be placed directly into the track that the multi-riff was generated from.
I don't know where they got that idea from ??? Biab MultiRiffs an Easier Way Having it bar by bar over the existing track data would be best but I just thought they may have had technical issues with it as the tracks are in RAM and nothing had been done for years ?
But you would think they could just regenerated the track data for that section (the same data that is saved in the SGU as there is no audio data, so it will have the source address for each bar/half bar RTXXX, file ac0641.wav, time, transpose amount) paste replace that data in the BB track then save that data to RAM replacing the existing track in RAM. (that's why you can change frozen tracks to normal or Direct Input just by replacing the source file) Sure you wouldn't have 7 to choose from but you just select the bar/s and track > Regenerate Select Bars on Selected track, you play if you like it then keep it else goto Regenerate
the new multiriff utility saved time for me, by not having to render / re-generate / render / re-generate / render / re-generate / render / re-generate / render / re-generate / render / re-generate / render / etc...
I wanted 7 variations of an 8 bar lead ride... for my DAW project... this feature sped up my workflow... Thanks PGMusic
I was so looking forward to this feature only to find out it wasn't true. It is so unworkable that you might as well just do it inside a DAW. You would think that by now PGMusic would have found a way to have more than 7 tracks in Band In A Box. I wonder what their programmers have been working on all of these years?
According to Dr. Gannon's statement in another post, it seems PG Music assumed the multi riffs would be used in a DAW. For me having read discussions about this over the course of the last few years, that seemed a logical conclusion for them to reach. Who knows, improvements may be coming. It works like a charm when it's used as the developers designed, being moved to a DAW. It's only a few steps more to use the generated multi riffs in BIAB .
The reason it seems a logical conclusion to me is because BIAB has always been able to generate more than 7 tracks in the program. It's always been possible when BIAB was midi and regarding audio and RealTracks, as long as the program has had an audio track and Performance Tracks available to the user. It's been available for all the years I've personally used the program. It is a simple process but mostly disregarded in practice. The paramount reason mentioned in forum discussions for not using the feature is how much 'easier' it is to do in a DAW.
I wanted 7 variations of an 8 bar lead ride... for my DAW project... this feature sped up my workflow... Thanks PGMusic
Wow! How fortunate that you wanted 7 variations and that is exactly what you got!
Seriously though, I'm glad to hear it works well for you. And it may prove to be a useful feature for me as well. I just think it would have been so much better if it worked inline and left me with a coherent track I could freeze and save along with my song.
I don't know where they got that idea from ??? Biab MultiRiffs an Easier Way Having it bar by bar over the existing track data would be best but I just thought they may have had technical issues with it as the tracks are in RAM and nothing had been done for years ?
But you would think they could just regenerated the track data for that section (the same data that is saved in the SGU as there is no audio data, so it will have the source address for each bar/half bar RTXXX, file ac0641.wav, time, transpose amount) paste replace that data in the BB track then save that data to RAM replacing the existing track in RAM. (that's why you can change frozen tracks to normal or Direct Input just by replacing the source file) Sure you wouldn't have 7 to choose from but you just select the bar/s and track > Regenerate Select Bars on Selected track, you play if you like it then keep it else goto Regenerate
Does that make any sense ?
You put the answer out there for anyone to implement but...
Absolutely. I wouldn't have thought there was any other way to do this, but then I see what they did. Just the fact that when you are done generating the new tracks you have to "undo" what you did in order to get back to your chart, seems odd.
It is all about workflow and this was not what I expected. But it will work for some. I will just use the BIAB-VST... Opps, I forgot - nevermind.
I get it... I imagine i know where you're coming from, but... I'm all about the the final mix... I've never relied on Biab for a finished product... I love it for what it can do, not for what it could do...
hi guys the drop box worked pretty nice for me just imported the file a little more work then in realband however it work for me always hopefull for better ways to cut down work flow time and thanks for always looking for better ways to do our work thanks eric
Funny how things change. For years now the answer to nooby questions about workflow has been mostly about how people start with Biab then move to a DAW. These forums have been almost as much about about DAW's as it's been about Biab. That's what the big push about making a Biab plugin was all about, the fact that most users use DAW's. I never agreed with that, I think a big percentage of users do not use DAW's, it's just a vocal minority on the forum but the squeaky wheel won out.
So now the DAW users are not happy because they have to move the multiriffs to their DAW's? Really? My question from this is since the plugin already does multiriffs so well why put it into Biab itself if the tracks have to be moved to a DAW anyway?
[quote=Rob Helms] I was really hoping they would do something like this,
1) let me select bars to regenerate 2) bring in 7 riffs 3) let me pick one 4) replace what was previously on those bars with the new RealTrack riffs
This would keep the song intact in native BIAB format with references to the RealTracks. And I could just repeat the process as many times as I want on multiple tracks until I get everything just right before exporting WAVs. Then, when I am ready, I'd move to my DAW.
Alas, it sounds like it will be more complicated that that.
This may be surprising to some, but I rarely ever use a DAW.
If I'm creating a backing track to play along with, I actually never work outside of BiaB. My workflow remains entirely within BiaB.
For that reason, the Multi-Riff output I select needs to load straight back into the track for it to be usable for me. YMMV.
I don't use a DAW either. I do everything within the confines of BIAB. So, like you, I was a little disappointed Multi-Riffs couldn't be generated and used within the BIAB parameters without outside steps being necessary. I still love the program, but that was disappointing.
I'm with you Al-David and VideoTrack. The original selling point and even the name of the program "Band-In-A-Box" connotes a one stop program that does it all. The past few years it seems that PGMusic is steering us all to use RealBand and a DAW and away from BIAB. Forget all that and improve BIAB. We don't buy BIAB so that we can use it for a paperweight and then use other programs for "real" music.
I try and work out ways to do everything and stay in Biab, I requested being able to drag n drop audio directly into the BB Audio track, you can do that now but it still needs a bit of improvement, and hopefully we will see the same soon with drag n drop midi into the piano roll. Every part of the BB program relies on the standard track set there is, so adding more tracks would be a major all over change. But if they could add some Aux Audio/Midi Tracks that would help, if the Audio tracks could be RealTracks in RAM or not I don't know if there would be any issues with more than 7 tracks in RAM maybe not ? if so they could be just local wav files same as the BB Audio and editable in the Audio Edit windows. But either way I think it would be good to have more AUX Audio Tracks as well.
Would that and bar to bar re-gen be something usable helping you to stay within Biab ???? Or would you like to see....????
I am not a professional. I do this for fun in my spare time, so I will be staying within biab. So, for me at least, there still is no multi-riff. Bar-to-bar re-gen would be a big improvement and you mention that some of these changes would be a major undertaking. I get that. Maybe it's time for a major re-write and discontinue RealBand altogether.
Maybe you could have an AUX button you click at the bottom of the mixer to show the AUX Tracks ? And how many AUX tracks do you need ? In the pic I have 5 RT, 2 Mid and 2 Audio
Here's the video I made ages ago (03/20/2017) showing how to use MultiRiffs in Biab, this is that same way it works now. The Audio Track is your stereo master this is SOLOED, each of the 7 tracks has the same instrument generated on the same bars, you leave the Audio track SOLOED and then SOLO each of the 7 tracks 1 at a time until you find the riff you like.
Another +1 for Multiriffs to be able to be implemented with a bar or bars setting of biab and not having to take it to a DAW.
Shouuld it be necessary for a few extra bars to be regenerated within biab (at the discretion of the software) so that it would sound more musical pleasing to the ear, and not cut off in the middle of a musical phrase, that would be fine with me as well.
Just incorporate the concept of pages like in the plugin so you have one page for style generation one page for MRiffs and one page for either individual tracks or recorded tracks total of 19 to 21 tracks. Problem solved and then if you need more to mix and master then send to DAW.
For those who want to stay in BiaB this gives them room to create. For me and other who want to work in the flow of a full featured DAW the plugin once all its issues are solved is the perfect solution.
I Have always hated the idea of a full rewrite of BiaB, as we have seen what a major update like 64 bit caused, it literally push both development of Win and Mac deep into the cycle where neither came out fully baked. Small upgrades and tons of RT content is the name of the game here. So something like what I outlined above makes more sense to me.
Just incorporate the concept of pages like in the plugin so you have one page for style generation one page for MRiffs and one page for either individual tracks or recorded tracks total of 19 to 21 tracks. Problem solved and then if you need more to mix and master then send to DAW.
For those who want to stay in BiaB this gives them room to create. For me and other who want to work in the flow of a full featured DAW the plugin once all its issues are solved is the perfect solution.
Why not open all 16 tracks as I have been wanting PGMusic to do for years. That would give everyone the option to use them as they wish, thus you could use them for multiriffs.
Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
I Have always hated the idea of a full rewrite of BiaB, as we have seen what a major update like 64 bit caused, it literally push both development of Win and Mac deep into the cycle where neither came out fully baked. Small upgrades and tons of RT content is the name of the game here. So something like what I outlined above makes more sense to me.
I am for a complete rewrite. It would include all different time signatures, have more than one MIDI output, along with other improvements. With two MIDI outputs you could have 32 tracks, more than enough to do some complicated RT work.
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Here's my thoughts on the 'basic' form of operation.
(I also need to remind myself that it's early days yet and improvements/changes are possibly likely to be delivered.)
This is EXCELLENT! My only suggestion would be to further simplify this by NOT using the 7-track option and just give me one to try and let me click it as many times as I like until I get what I want. This should make the regen much faster since it is only generating one set of riffs instead of 7. So I get my first one 7 times faster. Odds are I'll prolly find something I like short of 7 tries. And this simplifies the interface with no popup MultiRiff screen even needed!
1) I choose the track I want to work on 2) I select bars (maybe even with a restriction of 1 to 8 bars that must be contiguous if that makes development easier) 3) I click the special new Riff Regen button 4) BIAB generates and inserts the generated bars into the bars I selected 5) the Riff Regen button changes to "Retry Riff Regen"
If I like the new riffs I freeze and save my song. If I don't I click Retry Riff Regen and BIAB will 1) restore my track to what it was before the Riff Regen was pressed, 2) select the same bars I had selected and 3) give me new riffs for those bars. I repeat until I am happy.
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Here's my thoughts on the 'basic' form of operation.
(I also need to remind myself that it's early days yet and improvements/changes are possibly likely to be delivered.)
This is possible to do now. Trevor's graphic is a visual representation of a track construction I did on an instrumental piece on 10/19/19 and posted in the User Showcase. I didn't do a detailed explanation of the steps to create the track in that post but Trevor's graphic shows the essential elements and does not require the multi riff feature. Depending on the chord structure and the number of riffs the artist wants to create is the only necessary information needed to modify the steps to get to the total number of riffs desired. This can also be accomplished using midi, super midi, RealTracks or recorded audio or a combination of the those types of tracks. Midi and Super midi are rendered to audio for their use on these tracks.
but Trevor's graphic shows the essential elements and does not require the multi riff feature.
There are other ways, but I still believe that most would want the new Multi-Riff feature. Remember that the underlying intention is to enable the user to audition a number of variations of the instrument and choose the one they wish to use.
When I have generated Multi-Riffs in RealBand, I have always listened to every one, and then chosen the one that I prefer. Multi-Riff is required to effectively and efficiently deliver that.
Some neat ideas here! I think to do it user friendly and logical a mixer has to be "open" to possibilities.
Mario +10!!!
VideoTrack, Yes, logicaly sound.... but having a "freeze" option on individual regenerated track would allow to use the segment on particular bars or not simply by going to "bar option" and do mute/unmute thing. It would solve many requests in "one" feature.
For that to happen "easy" way, for user that is, re-generations should reside in individual "subtracks" of the mixer. Clearly visible and available for Mute/Unmute/Solo/Freeze operation. So it does not take too much space, collapsible? In the same way you showed a concept of collapsible mixer some time ago.
Pipeline, Why on the bottom? Why not Sub-tracked to original mixer track they were generated from? And as I mentioned in "wishlist" request, do these "regenerations" on request. One click "+" gives you next regeneration in sub track, leaving original (or previous) in place. For example 2962: organ, rhythm... Next Regeneration would be created as subtrack with name lets say: 2962: R1 organ, rhythm... 2962: R2 organ, rhythm... etc.
... VideoTrack, Yes, logicaly sound.... but having a "freeze" option on individual regenerated track would allow to use the segment on particular bars or not simply by going to "bar option" and do mute/unmute thing. It would solve many requests in "one" feature. ...
As mentioned, I only provided my thoughts on the 'basic' form of operation. Yes, there are many additional possibilities.
Some interesting ideas here. My biggest fear as I have stated is that major changes to the program could cause years of smoothing out and more and more problems. I have heard from so many people here regarding frustration of bugs and problems that rock on for years not having time or resources to fix in the program. To me this is a whole can of worms just waiting to be opened.
Okay so one wants to stay in BiaB and not leave to a DAW. In order to accomplish this. The program would need far more that just a few extra audio tracks. It would need a true mixer with FX busses, convenient routing. Far better implementation of plugins, better looping and comping tools. Basically it would need to be completely changed into a full figured DAW with everything that a DAW has. Why? Because if it didn’t people would keep asking for more features, more options, more upgrades. Eventually the core program as we know it now and as thousands of others use it would slowly cease to exist.
To my thinking a far more practical approach is to refine the programs available and not totally replace them. We have BiaB with full DAW implementation. It’s called RB, now before anyone says but RB is a little bit shakey, let’s imagine what if RB received a complete make over instead of BiaB rebuilding RB adding to its already rich feature set, better routing, better plugins, solid 64 bit audio engine, unlimited tracks, a more flexible mixer view, modern GUI, a simple one button movement to send a file from BiaB to RB seamlessly without closing one program and opening another. Like an auto open/close feature.
Imagine RB if functions, had the features, and looked like a top flight DAW like a studio one, Cubase, Cakewalk, Reaper. Leave BiaB to do what it does best build a track base, play before full generation. Handle simple but complex arrangements, and leave the tracking, mixing, and mastering to a true DAW.
The reason I propose this is it keeps PGMs release cycle intact. Allowing for BiaB to have some minor upgrades or basic core feature refinements each year for both win and Mac. It allows the developers to continue to add really cool content of RTs, RDs, etc. the company thrives financially, but uses resources to, on the side put a small team on RB and make it what everyone has wanted for years a true companion to BiaB. A rich deep Powerful, stable, DAW that rivals the biggies, yet has all the BiaB power behind it. Bar to bar regen, multiriffs in multiple places, Unlimited RT/RD/midi features. Layer type comping, rich full featured automation of everything.
If this happens to BiaB instead we risk a complete disruption of the core program and maybe several years of major issues as the program is rewritten. RewriteRB instead it doesn’t exist for Mac and this could be implemented as well. Those who use it can use the existing version. The new version can come along with out pressure. Take a whole year for a team to develop it.
Let the plugin be refined to the point it is stable, and solid and has all the basic features working, for those who choose to work in third party DAWs.
Just my thoughts on a plan that would keep all users happy. And give PGM a solid path.
Rob, I agree that keeping BiaB as BiaB and not a DAW is paramount.
I also agree that RB could stand an upgrade. BUT if RB has all of the bells and whistles of a full DAW like Studio One, Cubase, Reaper, etc, will consumers be willing to pay for those upgrades? If one has to fork out $100 to $400 USD for RB might they be better getting an already established DAW?
As far as BiaB goes I am a firm believer that it needs a major rewrite. I should include all open tracks for user discretion, include real time signatures other than just 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4, etc, while keeping its main function of a backing track generator. Sure it may take some time to work out the bugs but IMHO that would be better then continuing getting 50 new features while ignoring what is wrong with the program now.
For the record I am not a BiaB hater. In fact virtually all of my songs start in BiaB. BiaB is the second most used music program in my arsenal, with Studio One being used more.
I would agree with A rewrite if it didn’t upset the annual release cycle as that is what helps PGM survive. Another approach is to not rewrite but slowly pound out all nagging bugs in the program rather 50 new features amp up the RT/RD program. But I hear ya.
I would agree with A rewrite if it didn’t upset the annual release cycle as that is what helps PGM survive. Another approach is to not rewrite but slowly pound out all nagging bugs in the program rather 50 new features amp up the RT/RD program. But I hear ya.
Yes, this would be ideal for sure. My take is, whether right or wrong, is that the program's code is so old that it really can't be changed. Doing so may be like trying to put Lamborghini engine in an old Chevy Nova, it ain't gonna work! If things like opening up all tracks, adding different time signatures, etc, were easier I would have thought they would have been done by now.
Maybe PGMusic could work on a rewrite and instead of a new 50 feature upgrade they could issue new RTs, RDs, and MIDI stuff that would work on the previous years program. We get new stuff and they get to continue working on a rewrite.
Guys!!! We are making this far more complicated than it needs to be!!!
First of all, this is NOT the thread to talk about new time sigs or true mixers or complete rewrites of Realband! SHEEEESH! When you start talking about all that then, yes, it starts to be overwhelmingly huge!
BUT, if we bring the conversation back to MultiRiffs, or better yet, forget MultiRiffs and just focus on bar-by-bar regeneration, this becomes a WHOLE LOT EASIER to accomplish without anything even approaching a full rewrite of BIAB!
Below is a simple way to add bar-by-bar regeneration using the BIAB code that already exists and no new channels or anything new that is complicated.
1) let me choose a single track for regeneration - BIAB already has the ability to only generate one track as I do it all the time by freezing every track except the one I need changed. and BIAB already has the mechanism to select a single track at the top of the screen.
2) let me select bars for regeneration - BIAB already allows us to select bars for various reasons so that code is already there
3) set an Undo flag here and store state
4) generate only the bars selected on only the selected track - BIAB can be coded to regenerate only those bars (OR an even simpler way would be to regenerate the entire track in memory and then splice the new bars into the proper place in the original track after the complete track is regenerated. BIAB already knows how to generate a complete track!)
5) let me hear the changes - BIAB already provides all of this functionality because the track at this point is simply a BIAB track!
6) provide an undo capability to revert back to the the state in step #3 above if I don't like the result and even pre-select the bars so I can easily roll it again!
This approach would require very little new code and absolutely no special new features. It would also be extremely fast since only a small section of a single track would be generated each time I roll.
From a workflow standpoint this would be super smooth! I just create my BIAB song, select the track and bars I want regenerated and then click the Regen button a few times until I hear what I like! Super easy and fast!
One improvement to the above would be to track the riffs BIAB assembled during a regen session so that subsequent regens in that session do not bring back the same set of riffs. This would ensure each time I click the Regen button during a regen session I'd get something new.
I think after the big 32 > 64 write a total re-write will be down the track away. But the bar to bar re-gen that has been requested for years would be good to see, when I used RealBand all the time this is what I used endlessly as it was so simple just highlight the bars (or beats) of the track and re-gen. A lot of users prefer Biab over RealBand because the tracks are generated direct to RAM so it's instant, but we may just get that feature in the Biab Plugin now.
Here's a way that the current MultiRiffs can be improved, with just a bit or programming. : Here's the flow if you're in a current song: 1. When you select MutiRiff, it will ask if you want your master (all unmuted tracks) for the MultiRiff Audio guide track. If so BB will render it to stereo wav with Audio muted. BB will save current song frozen. 2. The rendered Audio master will be loaded into the MultiRiff session. A riff will be chosen by soloing or selecting in a dialog. 3. The current song will be restored, frozen tracks loaded back into ram and the Selected Riff will be brought back into the Audio track. 4. If a section needs a re-gen or new section added it will go back into MutiRiff again, gen that section. 5. Back to original song it will paste or paste overwrite the new section into the Audio track.
You're right. I got off track on this thread and I apologize for that.
I agree that a bar by bar regeneration as you described is an option that I would like to see.
No problem at all Mario! There are so many improvement opportunities it is easy to do!
I am quite impressed with all of the thought everyone is putting into this feature but I cannot help but think we will all be better served if PGM just keeps it simple and keeps it inline. There are way too many BIAB rabbitholes to fall into!
JJJ, dude you are right on. I got way off too. The reason being I hate the idea of super/major changes they always bring super/major issues. Simple is good. Your thoughts on bar by bar is spot on. I can see that being very powerful for BiaB users. I still think it’s time for some deep love for RB instead. I wouldn’t mind seeing RB be an upgrade cost, but only if it was upgraded to be similar to a big time DAW. Make it have deep comping, routing, unlimited tracks, advanced plugins and plugin chains like Studio one. Modern GUI and work flow.
I envision a one click button in BiaB where when you create a track bed and your ready to add personal tracks, vocals and such. Click the button and BiaB closes and a newly upgraded RB opens automatically. Allowing full DAW functions.
That and polish up the plugin to a solid complete but basic solution.
Callie just posted a new video for how to use MultiRiffs at the top of this forum today.
It didn't look too hard to use. I may reference this video for when I want to use the feature. It was featured to just use on 4 bars so that was great.
I watched it and I am still disappointed at the convoluted way this was implemented! I would MUCH prefer generating in place and not being required to drag and drop WAV files into the audio channel. I saw some strangeness as well. What happened to the rest of the mandolin track? What if I wanted to keep that track and just change a few bars of it? And what happens if I wanted to change several bars on some other tracks? And how would I reintegrate all of those Multiriffs into BIAB?
It would have been far more useful if I could just select my bars and click regenerate to generate those bars only!
And why does the MultiRiff mixer change the instruments but not the track names nor the track settings like reverb, panning, etc.? That is pretty confusing! And if I want to hear them equally I need to change all of the mixer settings which means I'm screwed for mixer settings when I get back to my song!
So, I just went and tried to answer my own question about generating MultiRiffs for a track in my style.
I selected bars 5-8 of the Piano track and generated MultiRiffs. I opened the Audio window and dragged one of the MultyiRiffs into it. Then I undid the MultiRiff so my tracks would reappear.
Now I found that only the Multiriff bars would play where they were placed and everything else had been erased there! I tried to undo and step back and BIAB crashed.
Maybe it is about time to open the mixer? And subtrack the re-generations to original track, soloing first as a default, so it does not create cacophony? And why 7 at once? I think "on demand" would be a more flexible choice.
I'm also hopeful that some changes are in store for the way this feature operates. I'm pretty sure there will be updates, so I'm going to wait a bit for now and see what happens a little down the track.
I'm also hopeful that some changes are in store for the way this feature operates. I'm pretty sure there will be updates, so I'm going to wait a bit for now and see what happens a little down the track.
Just tried several experiments and got it to work once but it mostly crashes. It needs a lot more work and testing to even work as planned. Unfortunately, "as planned" is not inline bar-by-bar like we had hoped for.
So yeah, I'm done with this new feature for now as well.
As a long-time BIAB user, and one who uses a dedicated DAW for editing & producing my finished product. I'm very happy with the new "multi riff" feature... for me, it's another very useful tool... Thanks again.
I'm also hopeful that some changes are in store for the way this feature operates. I'm pretty sure there will be updates, so I'm going to wait a bit for now and see what happens a little down the track.
Just tried several experiments and got it to work once but it mostly crashes. It needs a lot more work and testing to even work as planned. Unfortunately, "as planned" is not inline bar-by-bar like we had hoped for.
So yeah, I'm done with this new feature for now as well.
<< I watched it and I am still disappointed at the convoluted way this was implemented! I would MUCH prefer generating in place and not being required to drag and drop WAV files into the audio channel. I saw some strangeness as well. What happened to the rest of the mandolin track? What if I wanted to keep that track and just change a few bars of it? And what happens if I wanted to change several bars on some other tracks? And how would I reintegrate all of those Multiriffs into BIAB?
It would have been far more useful if I could just select my bars and click regenerate to generate those bars only! >>
Not to hijack this thread but only to tell you that what you're asking for in this case is accomplished in BIAB easier and with less complexity using the feature that multiple instruments can populate a single track. Up to 10 per channel. The feature will do everything you mention in the bold print quote above. It can accomplish 6-7 generations of a selected section the same as the new multi riff feature. This has been available for years and it has been enhanced this year because of the thickening feature so it's more useful than previously. If you are familiar with Punch in/out, Overdub and bouncing techniques you can regenerate a section of a track and preserve the remainder of that track and not lose specific riffs you've frozen. In other words, select bars to change, click regenerate and generate those bars only. These techniques of Punch in/out, Overdub and bouncing also allow reintegration of dozens of multi riffs back into BIAB.
Because of the limited number of 8 tracks available for a single render and the fact that BIAB is not a DAW, the sacrifice to gain additional instruments (or multiple generations of a single instrument , is at the expense of committing to bouncing sub mixes of tracks and instruments.
I posted a request for PGM staff to create a video tutorial how to do this back on July 09 but nothing came of it.
I'm also hopeful that some changes are in store for the way this feature operates. I'm pretty sure there will be updates, so I'm going to wait a bit for now and see what happens a little down the track.
Just tried several experiments and got it to work once but it mostly crashes. It needs a lot more work and testing to even work as planned. Unfortunately, "as planned" is not inline bar-by-bar like we had hoped for.
So yeah, I'm done with this new feature for now as well.
<< I watched it and I am still disappointed at the convoluted way this was implemented! I would MUCH prefer generating in place and not being required to drag and drop WAV files into the audio channel. I saw some strangeness as well. What happened to the rest of the mandolin track? What if I wanted to keep that track and just change a few bars of it? And what happens if I wanted to change several bars on some other tracks? And how would I reintegrate all of those Multiriffs into BIAB?
It would have been far more useful if I could just select my bars and click regenerate to generate those bars only! >>
Not to hijack this thread but only to tell you that what you're asking for in this case is accomplished in BIAB easier and with less complexity using the feature that multiple instruments can populate a single track. Up to 10 per channel. The feature will do everything you mention in the bold print quote above. It can accomplish 6-7 generations of a selected section the same as the new multi riff feature. This has been available for years and it has been enhanced this year because of the thickening feature so it's more useful than previously. If you are familiar with Punch in/out, Overdub and bouncing techniques you can regenerate a section of a track and preserve the remainder of that track and not lose specific riffs you've frozen. In other words, select bars to change, click regenerate and generate those bars only. These techniques of Punch in/out, Overdub and bouncing also allow reintegration of dozens of multi riffs back into BIAB.
Because of the limited number of 8 tracks available for a single render and the fact that BIAB is not a DAW, the sacrifice to gain additional instruments (or multiple generations of a single instrument , is at the expense of committing to bouncing sub mixes of tracks and instruments.
I posted a request for PGM staff to create a video tutorial how to do this back on July 09 but nothing came of it.
Charlie,
Thank you for trying to show me how to do this but sounds way more complex than I am willing to try! Any time I do anything off the main highway with BIAB I end up frustrated with crashing and strange behaviors and usually cannot achieve what I am aiming for.
What I wanted was simple enough for the average BIAB user to accomplish. A bar-by-bar regenerate feature that I believe could be programmed fairly easily because they already know how to generate a track!
1) I choose my bars and my track 2) I press the regen button 3) those bars are replaced and I can then listen or save or freeze or try again
Super simple. No exploring BIAB's hidden multiple instruments on a track "feature". No dragging a WAV file into my audio channel and figuring out how to line it up with the rest of the song. No generating MultiRiffs that replace my tracks but retain my mixer settings. No having to remember to undo the MulktiRiff generation in order to get my song back. Ugg. What a mess!
And I really sincerely appreciate your suggestions and those of folks like Pipeline but they are often just too complex when I can simply save my song, regenerate, save and repeat and then comp in the DAW.
So yeah, I'm just gonna have to chalk this one up to another VST-year and just be super happy with all of the cool RealTracks.
, is at the expense of committing to bouncing sub mixes of tracks and instruments.