Deja vu "again" !

I was trying to change my BIAB workflow a bit yesterday and stumbled on something that I had some issues in the past, which if my memory serves me well was not resolved.

Here is the scenario:
1) I have my arrangement chords / bar changes in BIAB. I select all with mouse ->right click copy.
2)I open second instance of BIAB do "paste"

And... there are some issues happening which are not obvious by just "looking at things". For example Real Drums would not change when selecting one from the picker, but for example "loops" would load on that track, still showing previously selected Real Drums NAME... Does not make any sense. Also some weird behavior on other tracks. Tracks are not frozen. Regeneration does not help.

Can someone who knows exactly what is going on when copying and pasting chords from another instance explain? Seems there some other stuff being copied that is more than just chords and bar changes.

Actual question is: How do I copy and paste
only chords+bar changes from instance to instance, nothing else?

P.S. I feel I should mention this too. The RT selections in mixer from one instance to another differ, but instrument "types": drums, bass etc are in the right slots. Also, there are no "change of RT or RD" at the bars in both instances. Also I did download latest built last night, did not solve this.

Thank you!

Your interesting question reveals that something has changed since I last looked at this. You couldn't do this at all. This was a frequent and long-standing request, because why have the ability to open a second instance of BIAB if you couldn't do copy/paste into it?

SO I don't know, and I wouldn't be surprised if others don't either.

Anyone?

Misha,
I couldn't get any part of an instance to copy to another instance.

To the best of my knowledge this is still not possible.

I tried copying everything from one chord sheet to the other chord sheet, including bar changes created with <F5>.
The style didn't copy, the chords didn't copy and the bar changes didn't copy.

It's never previously been possible, and I don't think that the latest version allows it also, but I'd really like to see a video showing me that it's a new feature!

I just tried the same steps and I cannot get anything to copy between instances, either.

We're talking BIAB 2020, yes?

Matt, VideoTrack,
Thank you!
Yes, now I see what you are saying about impossibility of instance to instance copy.
I had 2 instances opened and had items "copied to clip board" in both and since arrangement was very similar, I thought I was copying from one instance to another LOL!

But the drum part of the issue is happening regardless, and it seems started when I did this: Opened arrangement, copied chords (select / copy). Opened another arrangement, pasted.

Real Drums would not change when selecting one from the picker, but for example "loops" would load on that track, still showing previously selected Real Drums NAME... Does not make any sense.

I overcame this by switching Bass and Drums tracks around. Then I was able to change out Real Drums. Still some sections of tracks had strange behavior, almost like a track was "frozen" in some way with another set of chords and bar changes So my question is slightly changed but remains unsolved:

How do I copy and paste only chords+bar changes from one arrangement to another nothing else that might interfere or cause issues as described above?

BTW, if we had more tracks available in mixer, this would be a non issue

You did copy from one arrangement (file) then close it. Then open another another file or a create a new file. Then paste. Right? That appears to be the limits of BIAB ability to copy and paste between files.

Dan

Yes, that's an odd distinction. Closing and reopening BIAB allows copying but opening a second instance does not.

I thought it was File > Import > Import MGU Song
then in the dialog check Chords
I know you can copy Audio sections from one Audio Edit to the other, and drag audio selected bars from the DROP into another Audio Edit and also MID into another instance now.

Matt, Dan, Pipeline thanks for trying.

I had two projects A and B.
1)I opened project A selected chord grid->copy.
2)Opened project B (the A closed, I assume) and "pasted" chords.

After wrestling with this for a while I tried to export project as stems (individual wavs) and it gave me "Rendering failed" error. Rebooted. I tried it with different audio card / driver, same thing. So I opened another project from last month and tried to render it for testing purposes, also got "render failed" message.

So...I figured that something must got corrupted in software itself. So I've done a BIAB factory reset and EVERYTHING WORKED fine.

What I suspect is happening is something gets corrupted in software when copying/pasting chord sheet between projects. About a year ago similar thing happened. All chords became red in color and it would not play and I had to factory default the program to fix it. Now I remember, that is why I stopped doing this "between" project copying and pasting Not long ago a fellow posted in one of the topics that his chords "turned red", interesting if he was doing some copying too.

Pipeline, Thank you for: import chords from MGU tip. Seems to do the job.

Misha.

Hi Misha. Can you give a bit more explanation to your end product purpose? If I'm understanding correctly, it appears to me, with you exporting stems and the Chord Chart from one project to the other, you were wanting to move sub-mixes from project A to Project B to possibly combine the two projects into a more complex single arrangement.

Hi Charlie.
"possibly combine the two projects into a more complex single arrangement"
That the goal

There are several ways that I can do this. The easiest one which will resolve this once and for all (and would solve other issues requests) still remains a "wish" - more available tracks in mixer.

All others are "workarounds". The easiest one for me is to create two separate projects with same amount of bars + parts and work on them, trying out different RT's, keeping them "liquid" (modifiable) until I am ready to export stems. Then render project A + project B --> import to DAW.

RB is not something I would use.

P.S. Charlie, I wanted to respond to you on the other thread about getting from point A to point B through shortest route, but it was not my topic, I did not want to steer it from original request by OP. So re-flashing the thought. In my opinion, it is quite opposite. The more automated non-creative, tedious processes are, the more time you have to get creative and less unnecessary items to keep in memory.

So, even Pipeline's suggestion of importing the chords through SGU is a step in unwanted direction. Sure, it is easy enough, but why? If the bugs are fixed in copying the chord sheet from project to project or even from instance of BIAB to another instance, life would be a few seconds longer for other things. (Pipeline, please do not hold against me, your suggestion is actually the one that 100% works)
But ultimately, my #1 BIAB request is to have more available tracks in the mixer. That should solve ~90% frustrations in my workflow.

that was a long reply

Misha.

It should be made to copy the chords this has been asked for some time now

Another one for the Wish List, or at least to resurrect an existing long-standing request?

Misha, I've come to agree with you 100%. Your workflow is the new norm and recently even Deryk and Dr. Gannon have both addressed the 8 channel 'limitation' of BIAB with anything beyond 8 tracks, that's what RealBand is for... Like Trevor noted, more tracks is a long standing request.

There is no interest, curiosity or appeal that today with just BIAB and digital recording, I can compile a song with 70 instruments on a dozen tracks using MIDI, MIDI Super Tracks, Loops, samples, RealTracks, imported audio and live recorded audio of CD quality audio in a single project that's a first generation analog audio render in around 30 minutes but people are put off that it uses techniques that today are considered antiquated, dated and workarounds.

I evolved from a time that workarounds were the norm in recording. The norm to real, physical limitations and technology that could only support 4,8,16 and eventually 24 hardware tracks and no digital salvation. Old school recording where the likes of Lindsey Buckingham took a year on a 24 track 3m M79 Tape Deck to publish 11 tracks that run 39:43 minutes. According to CNN, "After a year of 10-to-14 hour workdays, the use of seven recording studios and just under $1 million in production costs, Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" was released in 1977."

Today BIAB doesn't have those physical limitations that Lindsey Buckingham faced. Today BIAB can produce tracks more than equal in audio quality to what existed in 1976. Today, BIAB can store 1,000 times the audio for pennies to what cost $1 million dollars in 1977. I've posted my 'workarounds' in various other posts over the past year without generating a single question. I've finally got the message there's no interest, curiosity or appeal to using BIAB's multi track recorder and DAW capability so hopefully over the next few years, PG Music will respond and add more tracks.

Charlie,
I did not mean to make you upset. I know you are very knowledgeable person, and I truly respect that. I am pretty sure you can make a tune far more complex and interesting using your skills than I

I feel that With certain improvements to BIAB which will result in saved time, "Curiosity and appeal" can be shifted to other areas of creativity (which are more important to me than technical aspect) like song writing, arrangement, sound design, etc.

Also on this. "techniques that today are considered antiquated, dated and workarounds" Same idea. If the "guts" are there, why not re-design them so they are streamlined into the process easy accessible and intuitive? This is a big advantage of SoFtware, as it can evolve, vs limits of hardware.

I completely agree. I would add simplicity to your list. If BiaB opened up all 16 channels for us users and had those channels listed in the mixer life would be a lot easier for many of us. More time would be spent composing, arranging, mixing, etc, then doing some convoluted workaround to add more tracks. YMMV

Mario, we've both commented many times on this proposal to open up more channels, but let's get down to specifics.

BIAB currently uses these default channels:

2 for bass
3 for piano
4 for Melody
6 for guitar
7 for strings
8 for Soloist
10 of course for drums
and 5 for Thru

Channel 1 is not used as Peter described because it was not supported by early synths. If memory serves, some devices use channel 1 for control info.

In Options, Preferences, Channels, Harmony, we see that BIAB can use additional channels 11, 12, 13 & 14 for Harmony.

So that leaves channels 9, 15 and 16 open.

Finally, if you Save a file to MIDI, you have the option to Write Guitar part on 6 channels. I don't know which channels they are using, as there must be some overlap with the above assignments.

So I'm at a loss to see how BIAB has any channels free.

I have always thought the quickest solution is to open up a second bank of 16 channels. Even my ancient notation software from the early 1990s has this. But as many things we debate, this would require making changes to the file structure of a song, jeopardizing backward compatibility.

forgive me but why the disinclination to use RealBand? all the tracks you could need, generate midi or RealTracks to your heart's content and edit, regenerate, mix or add fx as you please...............

why are people reluctant to use RB? i've said before i bought BIAB on floppies and got PowerTracks free. Right from the beginning i found the way to work was create in RB then edit in PT. In those days if i wanted another BIAB track - say an instrument not in the current style, I'd open the original BIAB file, find a style with the right instrument, generate, then export a midi file to clipboard, open in PT, copy the midi track i wanted then open the original song in PT and paste.

now RB does it for me. am i the only person that discovered the PT workaround for adding BIAB tracks? and is that why i simply moved over to RB when I got it?

BIAB is wonderful but all the bells and whistles over and above the basics need
arcane knowledge of procedures buried in the program whereas with RB they are right in front of you.

rant over but i'm still puzzled why so many people don't want to go from BIAB to RB

Exactly. For years people have requested DAW type functions in BIAB, but BIAB is NOT a DAW. However, when PG Music made Realband capable of opening BIAB files and included it for FREE with the purchase of BIAB, it answered all those needs. Problem solved.

People often ask “What is the difference between BIAB and Realband?”. The answer is nothing – they work together to provide complete capability.

Sometimes I think this would be better understood if there were a tab within BIAB labeled “Additional Tracks and Total control”. When the user clicked on that tab up would pop Realband!

I'm not upset at all Misha and I apologize if I came across that way. To the contrary, I enjoy my conversation with you. We just have different paths of creativity in how we use BIAB and that's OK with me and hopefully it is with you as well. I have the greatest respect for you and particularly your initiative in submitting your ideas to make BIAB a better product. Anything you may achieve ultimately will benefit me too.

Regarding your statement; "Also on this. "techniques that today are considered antiquated, dated and workarounds" Same idea. If the "guts" are there, why not re-design them so they are streamlined into the process easy accessible and intuitive? This is a big advantage of Software, as it can evolve, vs limits of hardware." I've got what I hope is good news for you.

The main BIAB technique I use nearly every day but others might consider antiquated, dated and a workaround has been streamlined into the BIAB process, is easily accessible and certainly intuitive. It's a single project User Track called an Artist Performance Track and its been around at least since 2013. It functions as 'bouncing' and yes, it's been around since the earliest days of multi track recording for various uses. But it has evolved over time and is still current and available both in modern hardware stand alone digital multi track recorders but you may be surprised to learn, it's also still used in modern DAW's even if they have unlimited track counts. In hardware units and DAW's, bouncing is used to quickly and efficiently render midi to audio, consolidate edited tracks, render audio that have had effects added to them to limit CPU usage or avoid having too many instances of an effect and of course, to increase track count. If you're familiar with Studio One 4, Ctrl-B is a bounce process.

These modern DAW and hardware techniques are also a feature (not a workaround at all) of the APT in BIAB. It will do a traditional bounce to increase track count but also automatically render MIDI to Audio, Freeze a track or mix, and consolidate edited tracks to reduce CPU usage. For a single track, access the Performance Track command by right clicking on the track and choosing Track Actions. For mixes and other more complex and advanced features, APT's are accessed from the top Audio menu. APT's can be easily reversed, edited and modified and doing so in the Mixer, the original instrument that was on a track replaces the APT. Somehow, it creates a WAV file much faster than a normal render. You may never need to bounce a mix track but having a track frozen, A MIDI file automatically rendered to audio and WAV or WMA file automatically created and stored in a folder of that frozen track indispensable. To have an accurate audio file of a frozen track available to open in RealBand or another DAW may be indispensable to you.

BIAB has had DAW type functions for years. Landr states; "Landr defines a DAW as follows; "A digital audio workstation (DAW) is a software program used for composing, producing, recording, mixing and editing audio and MIDI. DAWs facilitate mixing of multiple sound sources on a time-based grid. There are lots of different DAWs out there, each with different strengths and weaknesses."

I've found that composing, producing, recording, mixing and editing of audio and MIDI within BIAB software program to be roughly on par with modern hardware digital multi track recorders. I consider BIAB to be a functional but not full featured DAW.

I agree that RealBand was developed and integrated With BIAB to more easily, intuitively and capably do the more advanced editing tasks than what BIAB does. So yes, it answers all those needs and problem solved.

Matt, my idea was to have all 16 tracks open as an option. Thus one could keep it as is or open them for the user.

Your idea is an excellent alternative. With this idea the option I mentioned above is not longer needed.

I'd gladly take either idea!

You can copy chords from one instance to another with the BiabPlugin.
It's getting closer now to be able to load all the song settings from Biab into the Plugin.
Down the track soon hopefully it will have play from ram as Biab does.
I used and promoted RealBand for a long time as the idea behind it is great but in the end it had too many issues and crashing compared to working in a modern 64bit DAW.
The BiabPlugin if it's all done right could be the future ?

I'm a BIAB and Realband fan. Both of them are useful to me when I create a song.

While I could manage without Realband if it wasn't around, having it available makes creating a bit easier for me.

My process is....

1) Start with BIAB.

2) Migrate to Realband.

3) Migrate to Reaper.

4) After recording vocals in Reaper, return to Realband if I need multi-part, individual track harmony

5) Return to Reaper.

Regards,
Noel

Ohh boy, thread got carried away a little, but fun read

Bob, cxp,
Since your posts are somewhat similar in nature...
"why are people reluctant to use RB?"
I will give a shot explaining my view. (Peter G. please forgive me). RB is not on par with any modern DAW and I do not see a dynamic evolution of this software. I tried it on several occasions... I know for a fact that I will not be using it as a DAW. It is easier for me to bounce tracks in BIAB and move them to DAW of choice rather than learn a piece of software just so I can have a few extra tracks. To be fair, I realize RB is a powerful tool...but not the one I would use. Same way that I would not use sledge hammer to drive 1" wall nails.
---
Charlie,
I get what you are referring to. But bouncing these RTs in performance track or similar will solidify them, meaning they will not respond to further chord changes (bar changes, shots, etc.) They will be mixed audio files "playing along". Correct? If yes, unfortunately it is not for me. I need all tracks to be "liquid". Re-bouncing them will take longer and be more painful than doing this in DAW.
---
What bothers me is that some folks responding to requested BIAB features and saying something like "BIAB is not a DAW, don't try to make it as one"

16 open channels, same type as 7 there now to be used for RT or MIDI in BIAB is NOT a DAW request. It is arranger request. Has nothing to do with DAW. Tricky to implement - probably. Do I really, REALLY want it? Absolutely! I would blindly trade 3-4 years of new features for 16 (or more) opened mixer tracks in BIAB. Would even trade it for "bar freeze" with exception that new mixer tracks could be copied one to another

I agree with pipeline that plugin could be the future, but also with a standalone BIAB! Standalone BIAB + Plugin sounds like a perfect duo to me. Plugin is still very young, so it is too early to make this assumption, but BIAB just needs relatively small push (compared to ALL the features it bears) to be ace.

Misha.

That's not correct. Tracks that are converted to Performance Tracks are both. They are solidified as long as the track remains a Performance Track but this action can be undone with a single click and the track reverts to it's exact prior state it was before the track was converted to a Performance Track, so the track can be liquid. In BIAB, you can bounce a track as many times as you want and it is completely a digital process meaning there is no audio degradation. The back up wav/wma files created when a Performance Track is made are erased if you erase the Performance Track but you can copy these files to another folder if you want to preserve a copy permanently.

Bouncing media on a track to a Performance Track is accessed with the Track Action Command - Save track as a Performance File (wav/wma). Note there is also the option to Save Track as WAV file -- two different operations. You can save a track as a WAV file without having to save the project SGU file. A Performance Track can only be created if the project has been named and saved.

A Performance Track can be undone by the command Erase Performance Track and it returns to the normal state of the track media before the track was converted from a normal track to a Performance Track. Several actions occur when a normal track is bounced (converted or made) into a Performance Track.

When you select Track Actions\Save track as a Performance Track (wav/wma) - the following actions occur or can occur to the track according to what you do as you continue to work on your project.

. The track is frozen
. You are prompted to save the file as a wav or wma
. The file is saved as designated wav or wma above exactly as frozen
. The saved file is saved titled with the Project name and track title
. A bt1 file is created for the track with the same naming convention
. If a plug-in is applied to the track, it's removed but the frozen track plays the saved/recorded audio track.
. If you change the song Style, the Performance Track remains and plays within the new style.
. The Performance Track replaces any other track from any style that normally resides on that track when you change styles.
. If you erase the Performance Track in the new style, the instrument on that track from the new style replaces the Performance Track.
. The track color turns to Orange


BIAB assumes when you save a track to a Performance Track, that is the final action and the state of track is exactly as you want it. The track is frozen and will no longer generate as you continue to work on the project. The track is what you are calling solidified. Meaning the track will not respond to further chord changes (bar changes, shots, etc.). The track will play and be in sync with the remaining Mixer and Style instruments and track. In the Mixer and Project, a Performance Track responds exactly as a normal 'frozen' track.

However, if for some reason you need to edit a Performance Track, you can undo the Performance Track action, return the track back to a normal track with the instrument in its normal state and render rendition as it was prior to bouncing the track to a Performance Track. Here, the track is liquid. These actions are the same regardless of the media type of the track - MIDI, MIDI Super Track, RealTrack, Loop, pre-recorded audio or Live recorded audio or a mixture or combination of any of these media types.

To undo (restore a Performance Track to its previous state) right click on the track and select Erase Performance Track. Completing this action erases the wav/wma backup file, restores the track to its prior state and media type and unfreezes the track for further editing and regeneration. You can do these actions as many times as you want.

When you convert a track to a Performance Track or Erase a Performance Track and convert it back to a normal track, you have to regenerate the song for the action to take effect.

These are some of the simple, one click actions possible from the Mixer Track Actions\Save as a Performance Track. The more complex operations occur using the Move Audio to Performance Track and Move Performance Track to the Audio Track features and functions accessed from the top tool bar - Audio Menu...

As I have already mentioned another way to get more tracks is with a VST in your DAW that sends sync to Biab set to slave mode, OR load that VST into Biab sending to another instance set to slave mode.
Here's a video demo of finding a multiriff for tracks you have in your DAW.
Track 1 Original is original track or tracks in the DAW,
track 2 is the Biab Transport VST sending play/stop/pause/bpm/ppqpos to the main Biab app,
reastream vst is loaded in Biab Master fx track sending audio,
track 3 is reastream vst receiving biab audio (AUNetSend & Receive in Mac).
Watch Video

Charlie,
I have tried your way. Well, this is kind of trying to make BIAB behave as DAW trying piece together audio things, but without the visuals. I find the process perhaps useful in some ways or particular workflows, but I am afraid it will not substitute requested extra mixer tracks.

---

Pipeline, interesting concept. However too, quite involved as it requires very particular setup for each project. As many users, I try to do what needs to be done in BIAB and move to DAW. If I want additional tracks / instruments, I find it easier to:
Go back to BIAB do a "Save as" project-> change out RT's(or whatever else needs to be done)->render as individual files->import to DAW project.

The drawback is that if I change something in chord or bar structure, I have to go back to original BIAB file, re-render & re-import everything, making sure that tracks fall in the same slots in DAW if they had customized FX for particular instrument. This would be a non-issue with more mixer tracks. Also, it can be very useful in other instances, like hearing re-generations side by side, freezing "wanted" sections > muting the rest of bars on same
track. For elements, short passages that as of now take up whole mixer track on the fly without renders / re-imports. Yet, having whole composition fully acceptable to any changes in the grid/bars.

Process would be much easier, more intuitive and fluid if we had more "regular" mixer tracks available And I do hope we will see it, as it will open many creative possibilities without technical acrobatics, leaving more time for fun.

P.S. Sorry this thread went all kinds of places. Pipeline, your "import chords from SGU seems to do the job.
Thank you.

I know what you mean, I have asked many many many many times over the years years years for more tracks and nothing eventuated, I have tried so many workarounds over the years (the new RapidComposerVST is the best so far).
I think everything in Biab is built around the current amount of tracks.
They made RealBand for this purpose by adding Biab tracks to PowerTracks, this works for some users but most wanted a solid 64bit DAW, the engine behind the RealTracks in RealBand was solid but not RealBand.
So that's where the development of the BiabPlugin comes in.
That's why I have focused my energy on the BiabPlugin.
How it is now you can have 2 or more BiabPlugins in your DAW, copy chords from one to the others (allowing different chords on different instruments in another instance), you can construct a song very quickly just using a midi style and sending those midi channels out to tracks in the DAW, and changing a chord will regen in a sec or so. When you have it all how you like you can generate up the RealTracks/Drums, though having play from ram will be great.
In the BiabPlugin it should be soon added to highlight x bars and drag that section out into the DAW.
You can generate up whole track multiriffs and drag out any section of bars.
Each track can be soloed and preview along with the current tracks in the DAW before dragging in.
There are just so many possibilities with the BiabPlugin and not the limitations of Biab DAW Plug-In Mode.
I think the main design of Biab is for auto accompaniment, but yes still add bar 2 bar regen.

Pipeline, call me lazy or something else...
I am watching plugin closely, but it is still very stripped down compared to BIAB. Another thing, plugin is within DAW, so even if it gains all the features of BIAB, it would still be environment(Plugin) within environment(DAW). I would like to have BIAB (or future re-incarnation) as a standalone program too. As big boys at NI (Kontakt, etc.) or other soft devs have it: Standalone + Plugin. And in case of Komplete or Halion, I am using both: a standalone and plugin.

I do see myself using PG plugin in the future, when it matures further, but not yet. Same as with BIAB. I tried it a decade+ ago and it did not cut it for me. Now, it is a software of choice and I am sure it will stay with me for many years as I only begun scratching the surface of content.

As I get older my requirements need things to be more simple, More tracks in biab is essential for me. Please consider us oldies and simplicity.

Hi Pipeline, I wish that my brain was as athletic as yours but unfortunately its not and I can't keep up with your brilliant workouts. Please keep them up as I know that your efforts are really appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks ! I hope Gladys is looking after you down there.

More than 6 + 1 Instruments and better handling of more complex MIDI files

<<< ...this is kind of trying to make BIAB behave as DAW trying piece together audio things, but without the visuals. >>>

No. What I described above is the single click, single track processes and in these examples, APT's act more like advanced freezing operations meant to focus on the difference that a track can be frozen and solidified so the track no longer "respond to further chord changes (bar changes, shots, etc.) They will be mixed audio files "playing along"..." and if you want "all tracks to be "liquid".... A single click 'unfreezes' the track 'liquefying' it for further editing.

The multi track DAW editing, merging, mixing, panning, volume automation, multiple styles operations are accessed from the Audio Tool Menu.