I am trying to understand what is meant by "utility tracks" and I suspect that already answers my question but I still wanted to ask it.

Can the new editable utility tracks handle RealTracks or are they only for audio and MIDI?

I read somewhere that you could move audio from a RealTrack to one of these tracks. How does that work?

Can I generate and then copy certain bars from a RealTrack to a utility track? If yes, will it automatically place it in the right position of the song or do I have to figure out where to move it to?

Once I have done this if I then regenerate what happens to the editable utility tracks? Does anything on there regenerate or are they always just static containers for audio and MIDI?

My understanding is that yes, you can move a RealTrack (a whole one) to a Utility Track. There you can edit it. No, it will not regenerate.

<< I read somewhere that you could move audio from a RealTrack to one of these tracks. How does that work? >>
The Copy/Move command has been enhanced to handle audio as well as MIDI.
Edit\Copy Special\Copy/Move Tracks...

I posted this in your other post:

Further.. with the new Utility tracks you simply highlight a section you like in the Audio Edit of the selected RealTrack/Drum/Midi and paste it in a Utility track, just have Snap checked !

These are just extra audio/midi tracks that are selected in the Audio Edit and Piano Roll.
You will be able to generate directly in the Utility track in a future release, this will be audio or midi.

This is just a simple example copy a section of a RT to a Utility track,
you can also copy the Midi RealChart section also:

This is doing the midi also

My understanding is that yes, but by a process of copying all or part of a generated RealTrack from an existing RealTrack track. But not natively, meaning you cannot select a RealTrack to be placed directly onto a Utility Track and then generate it.

Thanks everyone! In answer to my question about putting RealTracks on new Editable Utility Tracks I got two qualified "yes" answers. Based on what I am learning I think the more accurate answer is "no", you cannot put RealTracks on these new tracks. They are for audio and MIDI only and will not regenerate anything when you regen nor can you assign a RealTrack to them. After you have generated a RealTrack you can copy/paste that generated audio but that is actually no longer a RealTrack.

I agree, looks to me to be Audio and Midi only. But that is just based on discussion here in the forum up to this point.

I am not sure what you mean by that last sentence, "but it is no longer a RealTrack". As I said, you can copy a RealTrack to a Utility Track, you can edit it there, and it is not regenerated. So is that, or is that not, still a RealTrack? If you know what you can do, what is the purpose of trying to puzzle over the definition?

When you copy a RealTrack to the Audio track it takes it out of RAM and is now a wav file Utility #1.wav Utility #2.wav or whatever name you name the track My Life #4.wav
But if you only want your tracks saved inside the SGU as data and have no audio files attached to the song.SGU then it won't.

The way to do all of this would be as suggested here
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=625839#Post625839

and here https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=624010

This way it will all be instant and play direct from the source files,
and all the track information is saved as data with a small file size like an SGU.

Because it is a misrepresentation to call it a RealTrack once it has been generated as audio and moved to a utility track. It will no longer regenerate like a RealTrack. And, I am guessing, it would not change key or tempo or song length or anything else I can do with a RealTrack. Am I wrong about this? (I hope so!)

One of the amazing benefits of RealTracks is I can always come in and change major parameters and still get a new audio track generated. If these new tracks worked with RealTracks that would be a lot better in my opinion. Because they do not does not mean they are not useful but what they contain is audio or MIDI and not RealTracks.

and .. if you have a RT that is not Direct Input but the playing is frozen as it is what you want but you want to add another guitar FX to it, you can change it to Direct Input and do that.
This is done by changing folders though it should be something Biab could do by changing the source path of the RT itself.

My experimentation showed that the tempo of the audio on the Utility Track can be changed but the key cannot without regenerating and copying the track to the Utility Track again. This was the workflow I used:

Purse out, I was looking forward to 2021 but this isnt what I personally wanted.
Whats the point of it for User Mrs Average?To me its another Videos thing - they were pointless too.
I would have loved an extra (just a) few more RT tracks in the BB mixer that responded to changes,not this.
Another triumph for the Techies? If you want to mess with an RT do it your beloved RB!
Money kept in purse - for now.
Wendy

OK, here's a simple example.

One thing I've been doing is regenerating until I get a RealTrack I like, then moving that to a Utility Track. Then I replace the original RealTrack with another instrument.

In this way, suppose I want a jazz group with piano AND vibes AND guitar all comping. Bass also of course. I still want the string track for strings, and I've already used the melody and soloist tracks. Now I can have that added comping track easily in one song without leaving BIAB. And I can still regenerate any of the other tracks or continue to refine the melody or harmony.

The only condition I've found is that the song form, tempo and key must be finalized first, because the Utility Track will not regenerate or respond to adding or deleting measures etc.

Perhaps in the future they will expand these to function fully like RealTracks. It's still a great feature, much requested.

I think that is the mindset of PG, it's like sacrificing development for modern hardware users because of older hardware users ??
If you can have 2 instances of Biab running at the same time there's 14 RealTracks running in RAM.

To try it I opened 2 instances of Biab with 5 tracks each, 120bpm, 192 bars, using 480meg RAM each and 7% CPU each, with i52320 @ 3.0GHz 16GB RAM.
So I don't know, whats the solution ? Biab and Biab Deluxe ???? Look Ma More RealTracks.

Now THIS I like! I get it now. It'll train me into making sure I've finished fiddling about with the arrangement before I move anyyhing into Utility.
Wendy

<< I think that is the mindset of PG, it's like sacrificing development for modern hardware users because of older hardware users ?? >>

And also the mindset of most hardware stand alone multi track digital recorder manufacturers. It seems to be the popular price configuration for both hardware and stable software. The most popular models settle on 8 inputs to create extremely stable units. 8 also seems to be the standard on audio interfaces for physical pre-amps. Tracks have never been the issue even back to analog 4 track recorders.

I don't believe that inadequate resources is any reason not to have these features, because you can do most of that (more RealTracks etc) in RealBand now.

You can also do 16 RTs in the plugin as well So it there and its free. As far as BiaB I believe it was said by one of the PGM staff, maybe Mr. Gannon that processing RTs in the utility tracks is a feature for another release. Right now it is to move as was mentioned above RT you are satisfied with down opening up space for more RT creation on the style tracks. To my mind this still a very cool feature. If I need to add a tone of RTs I jump to RB or the plugin.

I hope I will NEVER have to use RealBand

Had very high hopes for the "Utility" tracks, but unfortunately a big down.
With all projects done in BIAB I only used "Audio" track which serves a very similar purpose on one or two occasions. Kind of -> sort of multitrack is not a bad thing, but completely not what I expected. To me, the strongest point of BIAB is to be able to change arrangement & chording. Why would I want so many fixated audio or midi tracks? I can always use DAW to mix 20+ tracks and load them to a single "audio" channel or even render BIAB to single file, and load that up. But that is not what I want or need. Ohh yes, by the way, I have not seen such "user" request for "utility" tracks that do not respond to chord changes. Did I miss that highly desirable item in wishlist?



Charlie, Software is not hardware. The limits you are talking about are fictional and almost non-existent in software world. Software has to develop and flourish, not remain decades behind, emulating exact logic of the outdated hardware as you seem to suggest over and over again. Stability that you mentioned, again has absolutely nothing to do with software. Software has to be adaptable, pliable, moldable and perfected - SOFT!
Ping-pong tracking was only done in those days of 4-8 track machines because there WAS an issue and REAL limit of hardware. There is almost NONE in software. ZERO! I will never agree with you on your comment above. I have nothing against hardware, but to compare the two is just absurd like comparing a penguin to ostrich. And..BIAB has a function of recording, but it is not a "recorder", so I believe comparing it with 8 track recorder is a faulty concept.

Hey Rustyspoon good to see you, I hope you have been well during all the nutty stuff going on in the world these days. Actually I have to say RB is not a bad deal, I would suggest not to dismiss it so quickly. It is 64 bit now and has become much more stable to use. one thing PG did that I feel was really a great idea was to run test on 64 bit RB for several months, not a few days. 2021 64 bit RB is the results of 2020 64 bit RB that was not released but kept in the oven for a long time. Pipeline, John ford and a few others beat that crap out of it in testing, and he concluded he has not had a crash. It is certainly not the perfect DAW, but it is very capable, especially when continuing a BiaB song file.

It can generate and regenerate over and over again. Maybe not as fast as BiaB since it does not allow you to start until generation is done. Allowing it to generate to Ram has been discussed, whether it happens we have to wait and see. It does Multiriffs, it can handle both Dxi and VSTi plugins.

Reaper, Studio one, Cakewalk, Logic, Protools, Cubase, you name it, none of these can generate and regenerate and add RT/RDs without the aid of the Biab plugin. RB can and it has 48 tracks and a mixer with FX sends and Midi control, most everything any other DAW can do. The biggest complaints to date were people don't like the GUI, some found it slightly unstable, and it was dated in it's 32 bit architecture. So now its 64 bit, much more stable, and while the GUI is not super modern the system works well and does a great job.

The RTs in the Plugin are audio same as Utility tracks.
The future release mentioned would be doing the same as the Plugin/RealBand, generating up the RT or section of RT into RAM, saving it to wav audio and inserting in a Util track.

Where these guys/girls are coming from, is they don't want the audio "locked in stone" tracks, they want to change chords/key instantly on all the extra tracks.

As I said the "old users/hardware" notion is is preventing this.

See the DAWs in the quote, they would all play from the source files that are sliced up, pitched and stretched.
They would all play 14 RTs from the source files in your RealTracks folder that have been sliced, pitched and stretched in the DAW.

Yeah I get you, and I know where you and they are coming from. While the tech has to keep moving forward, it also to grow at a pace that doesn't deeply effect both older and newer systems. One very valid point you make is the the development should not be stopped by older users and hardware, but you can't totally toss them aside either. I am right there with you on the idea of generate to Ram in BiaB that is a great idea.

I guess I am just pointing out that we have 16 utility tracks to move generated RTs to and then open up tracks to generate more, then move them, the rinse and repeat. Hopefully they will add RT/RD generation to those utility tracks in the near future maybe even in 2022, cause that would be really useful and productive.

My point is regarding those other programs is that none of them have any of this capability. They however can and do benefit and are complimented by the features in BiaB products. There are a lot of tools in a good craftsman tool box and no end to the ways they can be used, only limited by the skill sets of the user. We are fortunate to have the quality of the tools we have today.

Rustyspoon made an interesting point about the old days of ping ponging tracks on tape, and I remember those days. Great music was made then. What we have now is so far ahead of that. It took real craftsman to create a song then, as it was a tedious process. Now we can take 5 minutes to type in the chords, 1 minute to chose a style, and 40 seconds to generate a 5 piece backing band. You have to admit it is kind of crazy what this stuff does. And for sure it is a lot of fun.

Hey Pipeline, by the way thanks for all your help this year, and the same to John Ford, Matt, RHarv, Jim and Charlie Fogle, Jeff Pettit, Video track, and a whole lot more I can't remember off the top of my head. Lots of great ideas, and a lot of help to newer members. I have been using this stuff for many years, but I am constantly learning from all of you folks.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/maxphbq184wg3sx/Reaper-RealTrack.mp4?dl=0
Reaper will also Play the tracks if there are 24bit 48KHz


This is what we have a the moment that I posted 4 years ago

I have no need for 16 new audio tracks. I don't use audio in BIAB. I do that in my DAW where it is much more modern and stable. Since these new tracks cannot handle RealTracks nor regenerate in response to any song changes they are no more useful than simply dragging rendered audio tracks to my DAW. I just cannot see any real benefit to them.


I have only been here since 2012 but I have grown so tired of the "maybe they will fix the new features next year" comment.


The only thing BIAB and RB have that I need is RealTracks. Everything else is better done in my DAW.


Another old saw that I get tired of hearing. "Don't complain about incomplete features because remember splicing tape and how hard that was?"

Sorry. Don't mean to sound mean but the rah-rah stuff always bugs me.

Ha Ha , well at least that gave me a generous smile. This point is exactly right. Without advancement in developments, improvements and adopting new technology, we would still be on horseback, or driving Model-T's, and no one is mentioning that

So yes Utility tracks would be better if they could be actual RealTracks also for what users need. With the regenerate selected bars function like the soloist.

Absolutely, I think we can all agree with that. Let's hope this is the first step, and fully functional Utility Tracks will follow. Right now, the song form, key, and tempo need to be set before using a Utility Track. Still, even with those restrictions, I find them very helpful to have.

I'm also hopeful that the initial release of Utility Tracks is a precursor to what can be done with other tracks, plus more improvements. They are usable, but sit quite out of context compare to the functionality offered by the other tracks.

My initial excitement at all the extra utility tracks was short lived, as I assumed they would have full realtrack functionality.

Really disappointed in that, but maybe a small first step towards the above goal.

It solves a problem for me. I have several pieces that have more than 8 RTs. The only way I could do it in BB was to FIX the arrangement, tempo,ending etc with the instruments I had in "SGU1" and Save.
Then remove the tracks and add the others and Save as SGU2 and take the lot over to my DAW.
I dont use RB before you say, everything takes too long.
NOW I believe that I can FIX as before and put those SGU1 tracks in Utility tracks and replace with more RTs and so on.
NOTE _ Until I hear good words that the NO AUDIO MME vs WASAPI vs ASIO vs WTH!! issue mentioned in posts above is fixed, I will not be buying - but my Wallet is open and ready!! I do not want to find that I'm having to troubleshoot a 2021 with my limited computer knowledge when my 2020 was ultra rock steady.
Bests
Ian

I use a workflow similar to yours.

- Create my main song file and finalize its length, key, tempo, structure, etc.
- Freeze the tracks and save a copy of the song file.
- In the copy I replace tracks with alternatives, extras, etc.
- Freeze the tracks and save the 2nd file.
- When finished I export all audio tracks from each song file and move them into my DAW.

The whole process is fairly simple. And if I change my mind about something like length, key, tempo, structure, etc. I can simply open each file, unfreeze and regen and export again.

I do not see how the utility tracks improve on this process. In fact, it seems it would be more complicated in the example I gave should I ever wish to change length, key, tempo, structure, etc. (which I do at the 11th hour of almost every project!)

Now, on the other hand, if the utility tracks actually handled RealTracks and regenerated like normal tracks this might be an improvement.

As it is I cannot see me using this feature.

I think the 8 input thing is mostly a throwback to tape machines and analog mixers rather than for stability. As you mentioned 4-track tape was popular, but so was 8-track, 16-track, 24-track, etc often moving in multiples of 8 (once you get past 4). Same with mixers - most often they move in multiples of 8 channels, at least at the professional level.

Then again, my DDA mixer has 23 mic inputs - explain that one!

(Easily explained - it's modular, and is missing two slots - except if you do the math then it should be 25?)