A QUESTION FOR LONG TIME BB USERS.
All.
be curious on how you deal with this quandary/solutions you can offer.

1. ive done loads of songs useing bb to generate bed tracks/getting song ideas down in various bb versions over the years.
2. useing the modern stylepicker i'm always looking for what i term those "golden nuggets" that can elevate the song. let me explain.
by this i mean if you look at past history of songs through the decades. the songs people always like in various music genres had that "something" whether it was a hook or a riff or sound or whatever that brought people to keep on playing the song ; often it was the song creators also reslising what i might term "the psychology of the mind". eg some people seem to like an ascending or descending chord motif as but one example of many.
ive thought about this at length over the years allied with how in fact it can even be a new version of a song that people prefer over another version of same song.
so i keep on asking myself WHAT ARE THE REASONS ?.
the answer i believe is those "golden nuggets".
please read on. and apologies for the length of the post.
i'm grappling with explaining whats in my mind.
3. thus given para 2 when i'm useing the stylepicker ; upmost in my mind is FINDING THOSE GOLDEN NUGGETS IN STYLEPICKER.
BUT THERES A PROBLEM. i always fret that if i limit myself useing stylepicker searches that i might MISS A GOLDEN NUGGET.
in fact often ive found this to be true. for example i might limit myself to all rock genre or certain tempos etc etc , and go what the hey i'll try another genre and see what i get; and LO AND BEHOLD A NUGGET APPEARS with the same chords in my song. and i get all excited.
so often i just decide to go through every style irrespective in case i miss a nugget/session musician. lol.
to use a corollary its rather like being in a big recording studio and going "hmm which session musician to use". in the past on occasion i would use an occasional session musician in a recording studio and stupidly then fret overnight after trak recording ; did i use the right one ?
4. given the above and the fact that ; obviously, the number of styles/RT's/midi supertracks etc will continue to grow over the years; its going to mean even longer times to go through all the styles so one doesnt miss those golden nuggets that elevate ones song.

see what i mean ? so my question is ....
HOW ARE OTHER USERS GOING TO DEAL WITH THIS QUANDARY ?
limit yourself useing limited searches ? or go all in and put up with the time it takes to go through all styles
and instruments ?

any ideas really appreciated. cos i'm in a quandary.
the other issue is because i end up liking so much going through all the stylepicker styles/instruments i often end up with 50 different styles and/or instruments/
nuggets etc i like , so i end up with 50 saved bb files.
from which i have to "cull the herd”. thus how do you handle this aspect ??
i mean in the future the stylepicker could grow to 10,000
entries for all i know or more. with a ton of talented session musicians in a ton of different genres with loads more RT’s etc etc..

all responses/ideas appreciated.

best
i'm in a quandary oldmuso

That is one long question... but I believe the answer comes down to how you use BIAB. I don't do what you describe of auditioning countless styles to see what sounds better or worse. My workflow in BIAB is short and simple. I use it for inspiration (combined with countless other inputs from my day). Once I have the initial inspiration for a groove or style I leave BIAB immediately and go to my DAW. I don't do what you describe of auditioning countless other styles to see what sounds better or worse. I leave that job up to what I can do with the initial inspiration in my DAW.

Now before you run off thinking I have discovered the miracle of music making. I am afraid I suffer from the same consequence you described :


I struggle fiercely with finishing a piece once it is moved into the DAW. But we all have our cross to bear in this life.

Hi Muso,

Your thread-starting post is great! I'm on that merry-go-round with you.

When I've written a song in BIAB and my main backing tracks are in place, I then start looking for those gold nuggets (sweeteners) you mention.

Often I do this in Realband but sometimes I do it in BIAB.

My BIAB approach is this...

1) Choose and empty track.

Not the Melody track because that's where I notate my melody and adding RTs causes the melody to be overwritten with RT notation.

2) Go into RT picker.

3) Make sure the filter is cleared and all the RTs are showing.

4) Sort RTs by Tempo.

5) I then look through the "Soloist" and "Background" instruments and using the "Solo" button, I demo the instrument and listen to snippets of music to see if the feel is what I'm after.

6) It's possible to filter the RTs so that only Soloist or Background (or both) show. To do this, type SOLOIST BACKGROUND (the two words) into the RT filter and then click on "Update." When you do this, all tracks that are not SOLOIST or BACKGROUND will not be seen. (Now sort by tempo...)

7) When I'm looking for gold nuggets, I start from tempos around 10 bpm slower than my song's tempo and go through them one at a time until I'm around 10 bpm above my song's tempo. (This is why I sort by tempo. It makes it much easier.)

8) I never pay attention to genre nor instrument when I do this. I've learnt from experience that, just like you say, sometimes the best surprises come from genres unrelated to the song's genre.

9) When I find something I like, I generate the whole track. Because I assemble my songs in Reaper, often the nugget I find are located in different sections of the song. Copy and paste does the job to move them to where I want.

10) Sometimes it's difficult finding a gold nugget for a specific section—for example, an 8-bar bridge where the chord progression is...

Cm7 F7sus Fm7 Bb7 Eb Ab6 Gsus7 C9sus F (F begins the new section. I need this so I can fade my sweetener back into the mix.)

What I do in this instance is create a worksheet that replicates that chord progression, including the home-base chord "F" a half-a-dozen times. For three of those repetitions, I use A part markers and for the other three I use B part markers.

I then generate the song and listen. When I find bits I like, I note which bars they're in and I then save the RT, take it to Reaper and copy and paste to create a comped track of my sweetener sections.

I hope these thoughts help.
Noel

Definitely an issue. I often find a basic song that I'd like to do a vocal to, but even when I have a nice MIDI arrangement of that song with well-done band/drum parts, I don't want the end result to simply sound like a karaoke song.

So I prety much randomly start going down a list of styles of a particular genre or substyle. For example, I took the song Stand By Me and filtered the styles using "Funk". Then I selectively go down the list, pick a style and audition it on the song track, mostly using the 4-bar snapshot.

I then navigate back to the styles list and find the next style on the list that looks like it might work based on the description, and try that. Basically a Shampoo-Rinse-Repeat process. It can literally take hours to find a style that "works" for me. I have had several successes, however, in finding very different sounding styles from the original performance, e.g. Light My Fire, done with one of the singer/songwriter styles.

I have not figured out a better way to accomplish this task. Requesting BIAB staff to add more selection options relies on the way they see a style, not necessarily the way I see the style. On YouTube, I watched several Henry Clarke videos using BIAB to "cover" a song with a different feel. He has a talent for messing around with styles and creating a cool sounding end-result [Take a listen to his version of "Walk On By" done with a disco flavor (on YouTube, search his name)], BUT he offers no answer to the hit-n-miss approach to selecting a style.

Maybe an approach for BIAB folks to consider is to provide an "automated" approach to reviewing a list of selected styles against the loaded song/chords. Give the option to select 8, 12, 16... bars to limit the generation time. Select the styles you want to audition, perhaps copy them into a MyStyles file, and start the automated audition process. Might drive us to drink after listening to 10+ sytles, but would definitiely save total time to stage up each style individually, then audition.

That's my (very long) $.02 cents.

Dear Dan/Noel.
thanks for your replies.
noel; looks like you and i use a lot of the same methods. lol.

i'll share with you both a method i use to reduce artifacts.
(ymmv sometimes works, sometimes dont.)
usually what i do with the RT's is go +/- 50 bpm from my songs bpm in auditioning RT's.
thus if song is 120 bpm then i'll go up to 170 bpm and down to 70 bpm. your probably going "is he nuts " lol.
i only do this with something i'll put in a mix background.
and with an RT i really want in the song that is a nugget.
what i do is invoke reaps reafir , zoom in and take a noise print of just the artifact. and then apply the print to the bb RT i imported. and/or in reaps are many js plug ins eg the geetar amps and other dspfx that i use to reamp/re-apply dsp and mask the artifact.
i have had some success with the above. but please note it depends on the RT. sometimes it definitely doesnt.

frankly (and i'm sure youve both found the same ) often one just cant produce the song "how one hears it in ones mind ".
this happened to me recently on a rock song. no matter how i tried i just couldnt get it how i wanted in my minds "vision".
but one copes and moves on.

this is why i am always sceptical about plug ins that promise to emulate a highly sought after expensive or old piece of gear or vintage. because in my opinion the nuggets have to be there in the first place.
dsp algorithms imho will only take one so far. thus i stay sceptical about certain plug in claims. and i ask myself how come loads of hits were done before plug ins ?

best
oldmuso

cfcboc just saw your post after i posted above.
many thanks for your comments.

1. I develop song ideas, melodies, basic chords, groove and feel independent of BIAB and when I bring the song into BIAB, I'm attempting to match a Style with the song in my head and not have the song developed by a BIAB Style.
2. Here's how I find "Golden Nuggets"
I use the StylePicker to audition RealTracks for several reasons that assist me in:
a. Hearing how RT's sound over my song progression, tempo and key. The StylePicker has the 'Play using current Chord Sheet for song' feature. The RealTracks Picker does not have that option.
b. Since most Styles have 4-5 RT instruments, I'm able to audition RT instruments 4 to 5 times faster and also hear instruments I may not think would naturally fit with my song.
c. Using the StylePicker allows me to compare a RT demo with my song. A RT can sound dramatically different between the two Styles.
d. The StylePicker shows additional genres that all of the RT's included in the Style I'm auditioning are a match to play in. The RT Picker doesn't do this.
e. I don't pay much attention the the genre assignments provided in the StylePicker. They are coarse, broad suggestions only. I've included a screenshot of a Style in the Genre of Ballad and it's suggested as a suitable fit for nine other genres... My original song project may also be a good fit for this particular instrument.
f. I use the StylePicker to locate and audition the many disparate Styles of a particular RealTracks artist.
Below, I posted a screenshot of RT Artist, Dwight Sills. Note the RT Picker lists 8 different RT's in the Jazz Genre for him. There are 4 Rhythm Guitars, 4 Soloists, 4 each of SW and EV styles and 4 different tempos.
However, the Artist is using the same guitar and setup for all these styles. So....
In the StylePicker, I use the RT number and/or the Artist name to locate all the different Styles that particular artist plays in that Style. I audition the Style and whatever RT instrument is played both in the demo and over my specific Chord Chart, tempo, feel and key. This greatly increases the RT Audio available for that RT instrument in my song project.

I can also increase RT Audio material by creating MultiStyles of the various Rhythm/Soloist and ev/sw feel that creates a song form similar to A-B Part Marker changes.

Another method to increase available material is to include the Soloist and rhythm RT's on the same BIAB Mixer Channel using the RT Medley Feature located on the RT Picker Page. The instruments can either be designated to play alternately every so many bars, Chorus or they can be programmed to play simultaneously. I've attached a screenshot of programmed instruments used on one track in the BIAB Mixer.

Hope this helps a bit with your searches.

This question has almost infinite answers.

charlie.
good stuff as always. i hope new users also read your post.
for me actually i learnt years ago to step away from ones instrument and/or computer to step back and get song ideas.
although sometimes a particular style on occasion might insert a seed of an idea in my brain.
my best ideas often come when i'm out and about.
best
oldmuso

I suppose it does, but the more I think about the core issue of auditioning a large number of Styles in StylePicker in order to find an interesting instrumental track for a song, the more I do see a need for some automation to help the BIAB user, especially given what the OP said about the ever increasing # of styles available in BIAB. And the idea of BIAB allowing some type of "MySyles" file which one can load with a large number of styles and have each individual style auditioned with the song chords, would be a possible solution.

I suspect Peter Gannon might agree as we reach the 10,000+ styles availability. Only so much you can do with the StylePicker filters and the dependence on BIAB staff's personal views of what styles are best fits for a genre/song/ etc.

I'll give it more thought as a possible "WishList" suggestion.

I, for one, have always solved this by moving to RB and trying different styles on single tracks there.
Get basic chords/feel then move to RB.

You'll rarely do a Generate All in BiaB and get all tracks as 'golden nuggets'.
In RB you can pick away at each one, knowing what you want for that particular track, which helps narrow style selection, or at least RT selection. Sometimes the RT name is a better clue to what you'll get.

Sometimes you may want a jazz feel, but a thumpin walkin bass .. or maybe even grunge drums on a bluegrass type song <grin> (I've actually done that one).

More granularity helps for me.

About Selecting a Style that best suits the project song. It really is terrific to have such a wide range of choices for the song of our work.
I have no silver bullet but I can offer an approach to aid in the selection steps.

Pre-amble so that you have a context
1) You use the Search filters and/or Song Title to shorten the list from 8,850 to 400
2) You refine some filters to possibly reduce to 200
3) You audition some with the demo
Through these steps you'll find some that make it to your shortlist

Suggested approach
4) Open the shortlist Styles to hear your project song in that Style
5) Repeat #3 & #4 many more times, as necessary

Next Step where I take it next
6) after Opening a number of styles you will have ALL of those on your Recent Styles list
7) Open the Recent Style List viewer
8) along the bottom you can save the list with SaveSet.
I write this StyleSet into the same folder as the Project Song and I will give it a Name also the same as the Project Song
9) there are functions to adjust the items on your list.
10) Notice that there is also a LoadSet button, when you come back to the song you can load this list of selected styles. The help file states that it holds 150 items.
This approach also doesn't crowd your Favourites list with current project ideas.

So you have something close to a playlist. Doesn't solve the selection process but it does allow strong methods for working with that shortlist. When you come back to it maybe your ears will hear the perfect choice.
Hopefully this helps.

Roy happy biab player
Toronto area, Ontario, Canada

Interesting and creative idea! Thanks for suggesting.

Oh
also the Set of Saved Styles file is just 19k bytes in size, so you can easily share the Style set with other BIAB users.
They can in turn load it into their Recent list and see the exact Styles you are working with.

RrR

I start often with the idea or title that I want to write about. I know it's a blues or a rock or a country song. So, I will open the style picker and filter the selections to the specific genre. That's a starting point.

I then listen to the styles starting at the top and working down the list to see if anything creates a spark in my creative mind. I'll also self filter by jumping around based on the name of the style.... if it sounds interesting or not. Sometimes I get surprised.

I don't try to overthink it. It's not rocket science or brain surgery. It's only rock and roll and I like it.

If I reach the bottom of the real styles... yeah I rarely even bother with midi styles..... and I haven't found anything I like, I will switch genres and have a go in a different genre. More times than I can recall, I was writing a country tune and picked a rock style to make it happen.

Thanks for the responses from people detailing their work process.

Tips I give to myself:

1. I audition new styles when I update and limit myself to picking a small handful that I will use. It is better for my creativity to put limitations in place than to consider abundance. With that limited subset picked (when I am not composing) I am set to work fast and finish projects while the creative juices are correctly flowing.

2. I get to know the players names on the real tracks and can call them into a recording session through a short list of real track variations by right clicking in the mixer on a drum part, or a bass part. Again I keep this a short list in my head of one or two guitarists, one or two drummers, etc.

3. Like Noel said above I will sometimes go through styles by tempo and look at things within 10-15 BPM of what my composition is. If I select by tempo range and 8th or 16th feel I am usually only looking at 5-10 styles on the picker.

4. I use Band in Box also for backing tracks for when I play live and for that purpose I pick a handful of styles that complement how I play (Eagles, Americana, pop country). Because I play guitar, I up the volume on the bass and drums and drop the volume on the guitars in the style. As the end of the day what the audience hears live is going to be bass, drums, my live guitar and singing, and some lower in the mix flavoring of some of the other tracks (piano or synth pads). When that ends up being the final mix, the choices of styles is fairly simple.

That's all I can think of for now.

Tom Laskey

There are some great ideas here, and I'll try some of them out.

In my workflow, I have a song idea composed on guitar. I usually have a style approach in my head and will look for something that fits and (a bonus) sounds fresh. I'll first enter the chords. Then I tap the tempo/BPM into BiaB, set the key and then select the StylePicker for the time signature and feel. Then the journey begins.

I'll usually choose a category at that point and see what I get. If a new StylePack is out I might filter for just those. If, for example, I don't hear a "folk" category I like I might go to "country" or "rock". Or if I want a "punk" sound I'll filter for that in the Filter String box. I prefer RealTracks but might try out a MIDI style or two. I don't maintain a stable of musicians per se, but know where to go for staples like acoustic guitars.

Sometimes I'll find a style that is completely different from my initial approach but fits perfectly. That's always nice.

Once I find a style I might add some instruments for variety/color. Then I'll export it to a DAW for mixing what will usually be a backing track for vocals.

I agree that this topic has infinite answers. For me BiaB extends the creative process by allowing a song to breathe against a variety of potential styles.

Sometimes the menu just seems too big.

I often limit myself to MIDI styles, because I can export them to a DAW or MIDI Sequencer and customize them to my needs; change the groove, insert golden nuggets of my own, change the instruments, and do a million other edits not available in pre-recorded tracks.

But the process is the same for RTs.

It comes down to familiarity with certain styles, trial and error, getting out of your genre box, and sometimes just plain luck.

Admittedly, Mrs.Notes, who compiles our fake-disks while I write new styles is much better at this than I am.

The more you play with BiaB, the most you get familiar with the styles, the better you will get at it.

When you get something good, and you are looking for something better, take notes or save another version of your song.

I take notes so I can put the song on loop, and switch styles during the playback.

Good luck, and most of all, have fun. They don't call it PLAYing music for nothing.

Notes

Another search option that Biab needs is something like Tap2Find in EZDrummer or EZBass.
This can be easily done for RealDrums as you have all the midi
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywau2e4lzyk9j5p/RealBand-RealDrumCharts2.mp4?dl=0
I can put all the RealDrums midi into EZDrummer and do a search either with Tap2Find or with a short midi drum file and I can preview all the found drums in sync with the other tracks directly from EZDrummer, this is how Biab can do it if the midi preview sounds right then you Generate that RD.
I can do the same with EZBass, and having RealChart midi for the other instruments the same can be done.

Hi Justanoldmuso

I share the same frustrations and I suppose it is like trying to find the end of a rainbow
But because these events are rare they are not easy to find and whilst it may sound like a golden nugget to us it may not to many others
I have however achieved some better results by experimenting with the HYBRID capability using parts from different styles to get the effect I require
Talking of styles many are the same with different instruments and called a new style
Basically, I do not try to copy the original arrangement but try to come up with my interpretation but the only tune I could not do that was Weather Reports - A Remark You Made
But just have a look at the HYBRID capability and build the arrangement instrument by instrument starting with the rhythm - although this might not be for you
Let us know if you do find an easy way to find our golden nuggets

My process is probably unkind to RealTracks.

I usually come up with a progression or riff on a guitar. I sort that out in terms of chords and enter those into BIAB, (early on with BIAB2011 I'd use the chord wizard but it's far too fancy and complicated now), I use the Style Picker merely for a related feel. I finish the structure of the song in BIAB and then focus on finding THE RIGHT drum arrangement. This is important as the RealDrums are the reason I have BIAB in the 1st instance and are the thing that I get from it that other programs and midi don't offer..real drums and real feel that are real good, (yes, lots of EQing, tweaking and stuffing about but almost always better than programmed ones).

I then use the VST DAW PLUGIN, (gone are the slightly more laborious days of exporting individual files and inserting them), to pull the drums and accompanying tracks into REAPER.
In there I replace everything I can, starting with bass, with tracks played by myself or other folk who are happy to collaborate.

I'll often then search, if needed, for RealTracks that are suited to how the song is developing...B3 Organ usually...that I can't play or get done. This is after the style/tone/feel of the track is established in the DAW.

I don't opt for soloist as a rule. I have kept a soloist track about five times to date. I have trouble fitting the sounds and style of BIAB guitar solos into my songs. For example - every Brent track I import sounds awful in my stuff. There are, however, a couple of players, rather than styles etc., that I'll look at frequently and , if nothing else, take ideas or sounds from them rather than tracks.

The style selection process is a bit hit n miss though. More often than not a song or artist I am thinking in terms of isn't listed and when they are it's all to common for the associated style to be far to generic to really match. Even more reason to focus on drums and fill in the blanks.

ReaFir is pretty cool but it leaves artefacts of its own easily enough. Any "fingerprint" process must do so...Spleeter included.

Biab is, now my drafting tool and drum supplier. It does other stuff but I don't use those aspects ofetn. I know there'll come a day when my fingers will be much less useful than the pathetic things they are now and I'll, doubtless, use many, many more RealTracks.

Jazzman..
yes like you i often use a hybrid approach.
i'm always swapping out a rt in a style for another rt.
i have a binder where each rt is documented...
and whether i like it or not.
for example for any rt i have two columns headings.
RT ID ................and COMMENTS.<<just like this.
so lets say i want a certain rt i just go to that rt's page in my binder. same for supertraks etc etc.
i feel like a goldminer always looking for "nuggets"..lol.

have a happy ..
om