I'm a rookie so I'll just tell you what a rookie does. I have to deal mostly in "concert" keys because my wife plays the flute which is in C. Here's an easy way for the OP, aside from learning the circle of 5ths, etc. and transposing on the fly--not that I think you shouldn't attempt to learn those things.

Let's say that I use a C fakebook and input the chords and melody in C. This is fine for my wife, but I play Bb trumpet. All I do is save the song and print out the notation for my wife. Then I transpose to Bb and print out the notation for me. Very simple. You always add 2 sharps or deduct 2 flats from the concert key and play all the notes up 2 intervals (1 note)---IF you want to manually transpose the score for yourself. If it's concert Eb, you play in F and one note up. No, I cannot transpose Flight of The Bumble Bee on the fly.----

As Mac and Matt say, the problem with the brass instruments is the length's of the tubing. Even on the very best Bb trumpets you still have to "kick out" the 3rd valve slide to play low D and C# in tune. This is relative to the particular horn also. You may also have to "kick out" the 1st valve slide for A above the staff. These gyrations are unique to Bb trumpets, but other brass instruments (and trumpets, too) may have to "lip' certain notes up or down to play the pitch in tune with the rest of the group. I'm sure that woodwinds may have similar gyrations to address.

If you have a notation program, such as Sibelius, Finale, etc.. transposing is very easy. Just enter the notes in a concert key, add an instrument such as a Bb sax, copy and paste the notes you entered on the sax staff lines, click on sax in the drop down list of instruments, and you will see the sax part by itself transposed. Pretty slick!

You can accomplish transposing very simply (works for me) or do it the way the pros do (wish I was there, but I'm an old guy now). I'm glad I had a simple choice or I would never have gotten this far. Good luck!

Stan

Alright, now I'm really going to step in it, I'm sure.
A followup to Sandra's question, forget the physics lessons and all that, if a horn player plays a note on his horn and it's a A concert, why can't it simply be called a A for everyone? An A is an A is an A, right? If all the different players on all the different instruments were simply taught as kids that that note is an A, where's the problem? The point I'm trying to make here is pitch is absolute. The A below middle C is 440 and that's it regardless if it's on a piano, tuba, sax, violin or whatever. Think in terms of pitch not length of tubing on a Souzaphone. 440 is 440 so why isn't that tone called an A regardless of the instrument? Someone with perfect pitch hears 440 coming from an electrical hum to a foghorn in the harbor and says "that's an A". He won't say that's a Db for a tri tube glockenspruchen that sits in the fourth row in the Berlin Philharmonic.
Is this simply one of those legacy things like that much more efficient typing keyboard someone invented 30 years ago that was proven to be twice as fast as our querty keyboard but nobody cared since we all know the qwerty system and nobody was willing to learn a new one? To me this sounds like what this is all about. 300 years of classical music training and it is what it is now.

Bob

Because of the fundamental, which is derived by the "open" note of the wind instrument, and, of course, the fingering issues, Bob.

Everyone new to this problem thinks they can solve it better.

After more investigation they will figure out that the solution is already there and that the old guys who workedit out did so empirically over time and came to the best possible conclusion.


--Mac

The problem is, Bob, if I play an "A" on my trumpet (reading from my music that would be the 2nd space up in the staff), you will hear a "G". For you to hear A = 440, I will have to play a B. That's the note I use to tune with for orchestra or playing with C instruments. For band, I play a third space "C", but the C instruments have to play Bb to play the same note.

Sorry, but the tubing does make a difference for brass instruments because that's the way they are made. Yes, they do make trumpets in the key of C, but Bb's are more popular. As Mac sez, they do sound different. If you play a "C" instrument, such as piano, etc., you don't have to be concerned unless you are trying to arrange for what some are referring to as non-concert instruments. I call them non-C instruments because that's what they are. C instruments determine what the concert key is. If the key signature for the C instruments is D (2 sharps), the key signature for the Bb instruments is E (4 sharps). Yes the pitch, for a given note, is absolute---for the C instruments. The OP is just learning the tenor sax (Bb) so he has to be in the correct key to play in tune with the non Bb instruments.

Stan

I used to try my C Trumpet, purchased for orchestra work, in Jazz settings.

It just don't sound right.


--Mac

Agreed, I don't like the sound of my C for 'straight-ahead' jazz. But I do use it for Latin jazz a lot of the time.

I thought a C trumpet would be great to play at church since I would just play from the hymnal. The choir director changed and the new one didn't want a trumpet anymore. I thought I would still like it to play with my wife on flute. She likes the tone of the flugel and cornet better so I sold the C trumpet. I don't miss it; I guess I just got too used to the Bb's.

I love the blend of the flugelhorn and flute together. Otherwise, with a trumpet, I would generally use a cup or harmon mute (no stem) to play with a flute.

I'm still not getting it. All I'm talking about is changing the name of the notes or scale as it applies to other instruments. The Bb horn plays an Eb scale (to him) but it's F concert. If you simply changed the name to F nothing else changes. The notes are the same, the fingering is the same, the horn player no longer thinks of that sequence of notes as a Eb scale, that's all. It's an F scale.
Obviously this is just an intellectual exercise, no way are all of the music colleges all over the world going to change that convention. I've had this conversation before over the years and frankly no one can give a clear explanation as to why it really has to be this way. I boils down to what Mac said, basically all the people who figured this all out hundreds of years ago got it right. That's fine but not an explanation. What does the fundamental note the instrument plays have to do with it? If that fundamental note happens to be a G concert, so what? It's still a G. It's only a name. The C trumpet was mentioned along with the fact it is built differently and has a different sound. What's the problem with playing the C pitch on a regular trumpet and simply calling that note what it is, a C?

Bob

Trombonists are a tricky bunch in a lot of ways. The instrument seems to 'match' the personality. We stuffy horn players might bend or lip a note, they dick about slurring and trying to hit you with the slide, or tickle your ear. If their bell is big they can't see what's going on, so they keep playing. And playing. And then some of them want treble clef with the part for Bflat. Others for C. Then some of them want bass clef, in either Bflat or C. And some are just good enought that you can give them the eb tuba part and they can transpose it on the fly. And the double bass trombones can make the back of your head shake for 5 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I will go out after and have a stout with them, but the only issue in the baritone sections is we fight over the 1st and 2nd parts. As there are 3 of us and it's my wife and the director's wife guess who loses that argument.

When orchestras of the entire world do things one way, right or wrong it's right.

LOL, hey every Wednesday night I sit in front of 8 to 10 of the 20 or so who play trombone with us and I often have tears in my eyes from laughing. They do have a good time. The tuba players on the other hand are all so serious.

Hey Bob, don't feel badly if you don't get it. It is confusing. In your example, if the Bb horn plays an Eb scale, it will be sound as a Db concert scale, not F. Since the horn is pitched one full step below concert pitch, the notes it plays when reading concert pitches will be one full step below concert pitch. If you want it to sound a concert pitch, you have write a note one full step above concert pitch to compensate. To hear a concert Eb scale from a trumpet, you write an F scale.

The reason I chose to write about the fingering issue, and not the tube length and fundamentals etc., was that there are a few exceptions. The trombones for the most part read bass clef and are taught that the open fundamental is indeed C, rather than Bb, even though the horn is pitched an octave below the Bb trumpet. So it can be done the way you say. Similar thing for baritones. Some learn bass clef and pitch it in C because they started out as trombone players. Some (like me) learn treble clef and Bb, because they started out on trumpet. When I write a part for a baritone horn, I first ask them which clef they want, and that tells me how they interpret the horn. Usually.

In a 'true' brass band (English style) everything is supposed to be in Treble clef. Doesn't happen much unless the music was printed there and intended for brass band.

American (Sousa type) brass bands don't follow that as a rule.

The other rule we break in our band is we take all who show up. So instead of 2 Euphoniums and 2 Baritones we may have 4 of each.

Just found out our spring concert rehearsals start Wed. Heros is the title. I hope he leaves William Tell outta that one.

The thing that amazes me is that the transposition expertise of the pros who play in symphony orchestras. I have never understood why they just don't print out the notation, for their own instruments, since we've had that technology for a long time now.

Then those same folks also play the old style horns without any valves. Although I like to watch them, I have no interest in learning how to do that. I know a pro fr. horn player who plays a horn without valves and her articulation is incredible. Of course she also has a triple, made in Germany, for around $17,000.

And then there's improv.......

Stan

Natural horn. No valves. Use your lips and hand. The old ones were painted inside the bells. We used them for a couple of Handel pieces recently.

And every once in a while our 'leader/teacher' Dr. Hank picks up a regimental horn that might have a crook to change from one key to the other, but often in F and he just improvises with us and leads with the other hand. It always sounds good, but I guess being a brass professor it should eh?

John, I think that you are very lucky to have the opportunity and experience of playing in that type of band.

So, to beat a dead horse,


I take my Fake C sheet of say Blue Christmas in G

Enter the Chords

F9/F9-Fmaj9/C7

Transpose the Chords down 1 Tone

and get

Eb9/Eb9-Ebmaj9/Bb7

and I can play the notes as is on my sax

A/A-G-A/E-G-, but they will sound one tone lower and match the new chords in BIAB.

Please say it is so

:-)

Ron

Looks right to me, Ron. What a tenor sax player thinks of as "C" in tenor sax music is actually Bb in concert pitch music. So, lowering the chords (in concert pitch) by 1 tone (as above) will match concert pitch chords to the tenor sax melody.

Ron--

Don't change the key signature to do that, as it would also change the chords and notes you see and have to read on the tenor sax.

instead, use the Transpose option found inside the Notation View Options or the one found in Prefs.

This will change what you see up one step, but leave the sounds playing at the original target Key and everything is easy from there on out.


--Mac