how to builder Adim7

Posted by: swingbabymix

how to builder Adim7 - 11/23/21 06:52 PM

I want to builder Adim7.
But,I can't.
how to builder Adim7
Posted by: AudioTrack

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/23/21 07:44 PM

What about entering Am7b5 ?
That should give you the C natural and the D# as well as the 7th
(I don't think there is an Adim7 available)
Posted by: swingbabymix

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/23/21 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
What about entering Am7b5 ?
That should give you the C natural and the D# as well as the 7th
(I don't think there is an Adim7 available)


It would be great if Scaler could make BIAB work!
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/23/21 09:23 PM

Are you referring to the dominant 7 (G note) or the natural 7 (G# note)? Assuming you're referring to the commonly used diminished with a flat 7 (dominant 7), use the m7b5 spelling as shown in your Chord Builder. If you're trying for the classical diminished with a scale tone (natural 7) then I don't think you can do that in Biab.

Bob
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/23/21 09:38 PM

When constructing a diminished seventh, the ‘seven’ is double-flatted. This continues the series of minor third intervals. So Cdim7 is C, Eb, Gb, A. The A is Bbb enharmonically. No, that’s not a typo. Thus there are only three diminished seventh chords before the pattern repeats.

Some years ago when we discussed all this, I believe that it makes a difference what style you are using, whether BIAB will play that double-flatted seventh.

If I recall correctly, either in Preferences Arrange or maybe Display Options, you get a chance to specify how you want this chord to look.
Posted by: swingbabymix

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 01:40 AM

Adim in BIAB is Adim7 ?

If you add Adim to a BIAB chord sheet and then print the notes it plays they are
Which is technically Adim7 (A C bE F#)
Posted by: swingbabymix

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 01:40 AM

thanks
Posted by: AudioTrack

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 03:55 AM

So did those above responses answer your question satisfactorily?
Posted by: MarioD

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 05:40 AM

Go to options/preferences/display and change your dim settings:
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 06:56 AM

[size:8pt][/size]Thanks, Mario. I wasn’t at a computer, but that’s the one. It’s quite a powerful checkbox, more like a preference than a display setting.

Remember, it may not give you the dim7 if you are in certain simpler styles.

And say happy birthday to your wife. It’s been nice knowing you.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
................

And say happy birthday to your wife. It’s been nice knowing you.


I will just as soon as I get out of the hospital wink grin
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Thus there are only three diminished seventh chords before the pattern repeats.


Which makes for interesting possibilities for key modulation. I mention this because I found it very cool when someone told me about it a long time ago.

Since Adim7 = Cdim7 = Ebdim7 = Gbdim7 (i.e., these are all the same chords), having landed on any inversion, you stand in the same harmonic relation to four different keys.

So, if you start in C major and find your way to a Cdim7 chord, you can say, OK, now I'm in A major, and take it from there. Then you can find your way to an Adim7 chord and switch right back to C major – or Eb, or Gb.

I recorded this 28-second thing back in 1981 using a Casio VL-Tone, to demonstrate!

https://soundcloud.com/mark_hayes/diminished-modulations
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 02:55 PM

OK, here we go again which was predictable. I'm not classically trained, I'm basically a rock/blues/jazz player starting in the 60's. To me a dim chord when put on a chord chart is a 4 note minor 3rd interval chord, and yes there's only three of them. Never have I seen what is intended as a dim chord written on a chart as a dim7. I would read a Cdim7 as a m7b5 or half diminished. IOW, a dim7 means one flat or dominant mot a double flat. That's because if the author of that chart wanted a standard dim chord it would be written as a Cdim. This is from thousands of fakebook charts I've used over the years. I understand that classically speaking it's a double flat but it's not common usage in my experience which is why I asked what the OP intended.

Bob
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 03:06 PM

Who knows? That program has a button for A and a button for dim, and from that, it says the "detected scale" is Adim7.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
OK, here we go again which was predictable. I'm not classically trained, I'm basically a rock/blues/jazz player starting in the 60's. To me a dim chord when put on a chord chart is a 4 note minor 3rd interval chord, and yes there's only three of them. Never have I seen what is intended as a dim chord written on a chart as a dim7.


If I were writing out chords, I would just call them "diminished," but I believe it is musically correct to call them "fully diminished 7th" or just "diminished 7th" chords, and I believe this is a common way to abbreviate that.

The 7th interval in a "half-diminished" chord, after all, is minor, not diminished.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 04:13 PM

Jeez, this stuff gets in your head... I was wondering about this variation on the 7th, and what it would be called, and here it is, with its own Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_major_seventh_chord
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 04:38 PM

Mark, that’s the one thing I’m pretty sure is NOT right. That link is a Major seventh diminished chord.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Mark, that’s the one thing I’m pretty sure is NOT right. That link is a Major seventh diminished chord.


Right, I'm just checking off the possibilities. There are three kinds of 7th intervals, major, minor, and diminished, and sticking those on top of diminished triads gets you three "diminished plus 7th" chords. This one's the funky duck of the bunch.
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 06:34 PM

I think we can all agree that there is no agreement. We also can agree we are not sure what the original poster (who is new to the forum) intended, since we haven't heard back.

Since Wikipedia was mentioned, I found an entry that supports what I've been saying. However, they even say there isn't agreement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_seventh_chord
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/24/21 07:48 PM

I don't understand – what's to disagree about? I really don't see this as a controversial subject. Some use the term "diminished chord" to mean "fully diminished 7th chord", and regard the abbreviations "dim" and "dim7" as interchangeable. If some do not, hey, freedom.

I do love these Wikipedia articles.
Posted by: Bob Calver

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 06:02 AM

does BIAB play different chords if you enter Adim and Adim7? And as noted above you can change your preferences. what sounds right? which is all that matters. luckily its not something that arises for three chord wonders like me!

oh, and with midi you can make any chord you like as long as you freeze the track and edit the notes.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 09:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Bob Calver
does BIAB play different chords if you enter Adim and Adim7? And as noted above you can change your preferences. what sounds right?


Manual says:

"There are two types of diminished chords, diminished triads (Cdim5) and diminished 7ths (Cdim7). [A preferences setting] controls if Cdim will represent Cdim5 or Cdim7."
Posted by: Bob Calver

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 09:37 AM

so it still comes down to which sounds right..........and if you have the choice you can decide. mind you with RealTracks its probably a bit academic anyway - you get what was played.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 09:57 AM

OK, I fired up BIAB and tried stuff, and this is what that display setting does:

If you say "dim = dim7", and you type dim5, it will be display as dim5 and dim7 will display as dim.

If you say "dim = dim5", and you type dim5, it will be display as dim and dim7 will display as dim7.

So if you have a mixture of these chords, toggling the setting will show either dims and dim7s, or dim5s and dims; you cannot see both dim5 and dim7 chords labelled as such, you have to choose.

If you prefer to see your four-note diminished chords labelled as dim7s, you have to say "dim = dim5" or BIAB will obnoxiously hide any 7s you type in. But then, if you just type "dim" you get a dim5.

(Seems to me they could have just let you use either dim or dim7 as synonyms for dim7, and required the 5 for dim5, but I guess fans of dim5s would object, so we get this wonderful flexibility.)
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 11:08 AM

Mark, BIAB added this option many years ago.

I believe a dim chord is by definition a dim5 (and a flatted 5 at that). Here's the thing: I have never seen 'dim5' anywhere outside of BIAB.

If you want a dim7, you have to write dim7. So in my opinion the correct way to set it in BIAB display settings is to say dim=dim5. It looks like you agree.
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 12:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
I believe a dim chord is by definition a dim5 (and a flatted 5 at that). Here's the thing: I have never seen 'dim5' anywhere outside of BIAB. If you want a dim7, you have to write dim7. So in my opinion the correct way to set it in BIAB display settings is to say dim=dim5. It looks like you agree.


I guess. It certainly is a confusing thing to have to remember, and I would really rather not have preferences like that.

I would let "dim" mean "diminished triad", with "dim7" meaning the obvious and "dim5" eliminated. This may inconvenience those who say "diminished" to refer to 4-note chords and so would prefer to use "dim" for them, but so it goes. Courting this type of confusion to try to please everyone is nuts.
Posted by: MusicStudent

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 01:12 PM

I should have read the entire thread before jumping in on this topic... what I was saying was pretty much what everyone knows.... so I deleted. crazy
Posted by: Mark Hayes

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 02:53 PM

Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
When we consider adding the seventh to the dim triad, we have both a 1 b3 b5 b7 ( generally named minor7b5 or half diminished) as well as a 1 b3 b5 bb7, the full diminished chord. This is what should be distinguished in this discussion. And after all these years here, I still don't get how BIAB handles these.


The manuals are surprisingly undefinitive, but if I bring up Chord Builder and click the little dot, this menu pops up, showing that BIAB regards dim7 as meaning fully diminished.
Posted by: MarioD

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/25/21 04:43 PM

I just ran a number of experiments using different MIDI styles and each and every style correctly played and notated Cdim, Cdim7, and Cm7b5. I inputted the chords as Cdim, Cdim7, and Cm7b5. So it appears as the chords are correct on the MIDI side of BiaB.

I surmise that on the RT side what you get is what the performer played. I have played a dim7 chord in place of the sheet music's dim chord many times, as long as it doesn't interfere with the melody.

Note that I have never seen a dim5 anywhere, but that may be because I input all of my chords myself. YMMV
Posted by: jazzmammal

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/29/21 07:26 PM

I was just about to talk about the RT's and chords. There was a long discussion about why doesn't Biab play exactly correct chords and of course the person was mostly using RT instruments. I did a test using a piano midi song and threw every complex chord that was mentioned and MIDI played each one perfectly and even used different voicings in different parts of the chart according to the style. The RT's? Not so much and I think it's because of the file size restriction.

Each separate chord has to be recorded as audio and if you include every possible chord extension it would probably triple or even quadruple a chording instruments RT file size. The reason is it's not just the chord by itself as a quarter note hold or whatever. It will be part of a 2-4 bar phrase and those would really add up.

Bob
Posted by: Matt Finley

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/29/21 08:08 PM

2 to 8 bar phrase, I think I recall. Your point is a good one.
Posted by: etcjoe

Re: how to builder Adim7 - 11/30/21 05:41 AM

As a guitar player I have always played dim or dim7 the same way and depending on where I am on the neck it could be any of the 4 "names" possible (since they are all the same chord anyway and the 4 note version). Usually depends on what is before and after it which decides how I want to play it if I am looking for the ascending or descending bass line or whatever.