Hi Folks,

After I render a Band In A Box song to my DAW it sounds dull when played back in my DAW. Less treble and more boomy - especially the Bass.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help.

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,
are you exporting with tracks centred, no reverb, no EQ?
I have that set up in my preferences and, as a result, the tracks need treatment to sound like they did in the box.

Hi Ray,

Are you saying that even with all tracks centred and EQ & effects off the rendered tracks are still dull?

On another matter - have you noticed that sometimes (typically when you have been trialing and replacing realtracks a lot in a song the volume of the new tracks go down to close to zero volume. Saving the song and reloading does not help. I have to delete the song completely and start from scratch - do you get this?


Best Regards
Nigel

Hi Nigel,

When styles are created, volumes in Stylemaker are adjusted so that each track is at the "right" mixer volume when the mixer's volume for that track is set to 90. Because some RTs are louder than others, individual track adjustments in Stylemaker vary.

When trialling RTs, if you happen to put a softer Realtrack onto a mixer track that was reduced in volume to accommodate the original instrument in the style, the trialled RT will sound very quite.

In other words, what you are experiencing is a consequence of the base style that you are bring RTs into. (At least, this is my take on it all.)

I hope this makes sense.

Noel

Hi Noel,

Volume problems - Thanks for the explanation.

Dull rendered tracks - how do you avoid this problem?

Best Regards
Nigel

Hi again, Nigel.

My tracks are always dull when I render them because I always render them without reverb, tone settings and with the pan centered. I do all the modifying in my DAW.

Are you rendering your tracks in BIAB or in the VST plugin?

Regards,
Noel

hello again Nigel,
From my experience, as recent as yesterday,centred, dry & unEQd is a bit "dull". I exported a drum track twice for a current project - one had slight variations added. I was intending to just cut n paste the changes in as & where I felt they worked and as I started I noticed the two version sounded quite different...one was "dull". I went back & checked my settings and it seems my preference for dry etc had dropped out with the last update giving me the different sounds.
It was no biggy to tweak in Reaper to make a match, (though, usually, matching BIAB's reverb is a problem), there was a solid wallop of reverb & a couple of units of top end to get within cooee, but it was a stark difference. In the end I didn't go with the variant sections as I rather like the persistent, insistent plod of my original grab.
The volume thing - I've not noticed becasue I spend very little time inside BIAB - I find, export and work in Reaper without paying attention to levels etc in BIAB.

What happens if you drop and drag rather than render? You should be able to transfer tracks with their BIAB fx

Hi Ray,

Looks like everybody has the same problem with BIAB rendering dull sounding wav files.

Maybe somebody at PG Music can explain this to us all and what they are going to do to fix it.

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

I don't think I explained myself well previously so I thought that I should clarify why my rendered audio files sound "dull" compared to when I listen to them in BIAB.

I choose for them to be dull by removing all of PG Music's effects such as EQ, Pan, Reverb and volume balance. I personally like to have raw audio files to work with in my DAW. Once I take the raw audio to Reaper, I then add my own Pan, EQ, Reverb, Delay, etc.

When files play in BIAB, they are usually heard with all of PG Musics adjustments that were added when making a style.

When you render a file, these additions of PG Music should render with the audio unless you choose to render "dry, center, flat" like I do.

Regards,
Noel

Hi Noel,

No - you explained it very well.

I do exactly the same as you - render the tracks with no Band In A Box EQ, no Reverb and no Effects to Reaper.

BUT - the rendered tracks in Reaper sound nothing like they did in Band In A Box.

Why is this?

Best Regards
Nigel

they don't sound the same because the tracks have no eq, no fx and no PG music balancing of the tracks that make for the overall sound of the style that created the file.

as you say .......... 'no Band In A Box EQ, no Reverb and no Effects'

that's why i drop and drag files to RB these days rather than open BIAB files in RB because RB does not have the fx and eq

drag and drop exports tracks with the eq and fx - although there is a setting to centre and remove fx

Hi Bob,

In Band In A Box I remove all panning, EQ, Effects, Reverb etc (everything) from every track and just set all volumes to 90. So all the tracks are completely dry. Then I listen in BIAB - it sounds fine.

However when I export the dry tracks to 16Bit 44.1K WAV files they sound nothing like in BIAB - they sound dull and lifeless. Nothing to do with volume or EQ or Reverb etc - this is just a tonal matter.

I just use the BIAB export function - should I be using drag and drop and if so how does this improve the tonal quality of the rendered tracks?

If it does - how do I drag and drop tracks?

Best Regards
Nigel

I would like to circle back and go through this in more detail - the 'dull' problem.

My first response would have been as above, to export as flat, dry, centered and make the EQ etc. adjustments in the DAW. But it sounds like you are doing this.

Then I would have made sure you were rendering the tracks in 16 bit, 44.1K at the least. But it sounds like you are doing that.

You are using Reaper, so I can't help with that. Is there any chance there is a gain staging problem, where the volume level going to Reaper is somehow way too low?

Your description of 'dull' makes me think, bit and sample rate, like saving to a 128-quality MP3 or lower, even like 40. So, could you describe the exact steps you take to transfer your BIAB audio tracks into Reaper? Perhaps someone, especially someone who knows Reaper, will see something.

Hi Matt,

Yes everything in your email is correct.

I export as 16bit 44.1 WAV files - all other settings off.

What do you do and do you notice the tonal quality of your exported files is significantly different to listening to the same track in BIAB?

What is the reason for this?

What can I and all other BIAB users do to rectify this situation which has been there for least 10-20 years?

Best Regards
Nigel

Please tell me the exact steps you use for “I export …”.

Hi Matt,

I have attached a JPG of the BIAB export screen I use.

What am I doing wrong?

Do you not have this problem?

Thanks & Best Regards
Nigel

Hi Matt,

I have sent you a screenshot of my export settings - this what you want?

Best Regards
Nigel

Your export matches one of my usual one Nigel...though sometimes I'll use 24 bit just to suss out if there's a perceivable difference.
Other times I'll select the track in BIAB mixer, make sure I've centred etc, & use the track actions (?) from the right click to export one at a time.
Other times I've dragged from the DAW plug in (LOTS of problems with that) after the same preparation.
I have most faith in the right click method for some reason.
I have noted, during a recent collaboration, that the levels on the BIAB tracks were quite low...this didn't bother me but required significant boosting with the collaborator after rendering from REAPER without tweaking volume.

Nigel, thanks. I just drag each track to my DAW manually. But I hoped someone who does it as you do might spot something in your settings.

Hi Nigel,
I sometimes use the "Render Audio File" dialog, with the same settings in your attachment, but usually, I right click on the track I want in the mixer, then left click on "Track Actions" and select "Save Track as a WAV File"
Biab will then render the file and save to my project folder...
I then copy or drag the WAV file into my Cakewalk project...
Then I almost always use a Hi-Pass Filter, Pan, EQ, Compress, Sweeten etc.

Hi Matt,

And does dragging each track to your DAW solve the problem?

Best Regards
Nigel

I guess I have to say Yes because it works and I’ve continued to do it the ‘old’ way.

Hi Bloc-Head and Matt,

Thanks for your responses.

It is clear that no BIAB user nor PG Music can hear this problem - just me.

So I'll drop the subject.

Best Regards
Nigel

Not just you. I've been having this problem for quite sometime. Although, I use the Rendering of the MIX, primarily. The mix sounds very different when listening in BIAB, versus what comes out of the render. I've used ".wav" files and 24bit/48k/320k ".mp3" files, with the same results.

Dull, Muddy, or maybe reduced dynamic range.... I don't know what it is for sure. I generally try to do my mixing in BIAB, but have to generate the track many times to get something close to the mix I want in the Render.

Thought it was just me. (Maybe it is!)

I recommend you stay with it.

I also think we need someone who knows Reaper well. Is there some setting in Reaper that could reduce the sample or bit rates of audio files sent to a project?

Nigel…
Dunno if i can help. I’m a long time reaps user bloke from day 1..v0.99.
I got q’s.
1..Under X top right hand of reaps main screen..please post back info.
2..What is your sound device , and what are its bit depth and sampling rate ?

I would also ask on reaps forums too.

maybe thunderthud could post same info.



Cheers
om

Another long term Reaper guy here. But from the beginning of this thread I have been a bit confused. Seems the tracks are exported dry, no eq and no panning!! Otherwise, I am not aware of any Reaper import feature which would downgraded the full audio. Those guys over there do frequency mapping to verify audio is not adversly impacted by input or output so I don't think the answer is there.

You're no doubt correct, Dan. Yes, I'm really reaching here, since we seem to be collectively stumped.

Hi Guys,

Bingo! - I've found a solution with the help of Google and some Reaper Blogs. It's nothing to do with BIAB - it's a setting in Reaper.

It's quite an odd solution. So I just need to do a little more research on the background of this setting, how and why it does what it does.

I will be back in touch with details of the solution shortly.

Best Regards
Nigel

O Boy, don't make us wait too long as we are dying with an... tis.... i... pa ....

You're not doing anything wrong. I get the same thing. BUT....The honest truth is that you want your tracks to sound plain vanilla in the beginning. All that matters is that you have a good signal strength and it is what you want musically. You don't want tracks coming in with built in compression or verb, or anything else. You're going to add that in the mixing process of you need it.

So, my simple solution is this. I use Ozone, and I use some other EQ and reverb that's default in my DAW, Sonar. Ozone is a mastering suite with EQ, reverb, widening, multi-band compression and several other things. It puts the polish on the files. I like it because it has a bunch of very useful presets that get you at least 80% of the way to a really good sounding mix. I like to insert it into my DAW's master buss. Start with it off, hit play, and then turn it on to hear the difference. Every so often I will bypass the FX to see if I'm still on course. As with most plugins...... less is often more, but it's ultimately up to you.

If you don't have Ozone.... go to https://www.izotope.com/en/products/ozone.html and download the 10 day free trial. Be forewarned.... if you do the free trial, you better have the money ready because there's no way once you try it that you will want to be without it. Guaranteed!

True enough; +1 for Ozone.

So it might after all be a setting in Reaper? Let us know.

Hi Dan, Matt & Others,

The problem is:

Prefs > Project > Media Item Defaults > Create automatic fade in/out

The default setting is 0:00.010 i.e. a tiny fade in and out on every track.

This setting exists to prevent clicks at the start of media items (ie. when the waveform doesn't start at a zero crossing). So if you reduce it or disable this setting, you'll need to manually check and edit your audio to eliminate clicks when they occur (which you probably do anyway).

This doesn't make sense to me because it is not just the initial transient in a track/media item that sounds dull - it is every note.

The Solution is:

I set this to 0:00.000 in my Reaper System Wide Preferences. (I also set the crossfade to 0:00.000 just in case). Then I closed down and restarted Reaper (to make sure the new preferences were being used).
Then I imported some BIAB Wav (Media) files and Bingo - they are absolutely identical to when you listen to the same tracks in BIAB.

For me the improvement in sound quality was most evident in two handed piano tracks because Pianos have more harmonics than most other instruments.

I then went ahead and created a mix in Reaper and Boy - it was just so much quicker and easier. This is because it's easy to dull an instrument in Reaper (or any DAW) but completely recovering lost highs and mids is simply not possible. Exactly the same as a photo with blown highlights.

I hope this helps.

NB - Herb - Yes I use Ozone and most other Izotope products at various stages of mixing and mastering - great software!

Best Regards
Nigel

Nigel,

Thanks for the update. I've been closely following this thread. I'm so glad you persisted in your investigation until you found a solution.

Many DAWs enable their version of "automatic crossfade" by default. That means many Band-in-a-Box users may be encountering the same issue you experienced but may not even realize it. You've likely helped many more users than you realize.

Nigel,
you're right - it makes no sense at all BUT if it works it works...being constantly modified Reaper has some oddities to be sure.
I've been pondering whether to stop the auto fade in for a couple of months now and it can cause slight level fluctuations in sensitive sustained notes when editing.
I'll do it today. THANKS.

I'm just amazed Reaper would have such a hazard. It was the only thing that made any sense.

I'm glad for many others that you stuck with this, Nigel.

When I inject the Biab tracks into Reaper it don't put in any crossfades where there is item overlap, but if I move it then it will add auto crossfade, not sure where you would have these with a consolidated wav file unless you have rendered the section separately. There is only a tiny fade in out added to an item to turn the volume down at that point, this should not effect the tone of the rest of the wav file.
There are scripts/actions to automatically remove fades/crossfades from all items.

Bigger

Hi,

"There is only a tiny fade in out added to an item to turn the volume down at that point, this should not effect the tone of the rest of the wav file."

Yes weird - but true!

Best Regards
Nigel

If you can render a track that stands out with the fade in/out and render one without them and post it in the bug forum
https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22