So the BIAB 2021 forum is pretty lively with chatter about the new release. But things continue to be pretty quite in regards to the BIAB VST 3. Only three threads after ~week. That does not surprise me much since, despite the fact this has been on market for 2 years it has never gathered a really big crowd here in the forum.

But how about a hint on how it is being received? On a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is "here we go again" and 10 is "OK, our work here is done".

Dan my personal opinion is that it is very good and it is maturing nicely its does a ton of things as is. there are a few bugs that are being worked out mostly because the backend biab folder team has to coordinate these adjustments with Adar who develops the front end. When these things are worked out it will be a solid tool to use in the DAW of choice.

There a lot of conflicting opinions as to where it should go, and that will always be the case, as people have different views of the same thing.

To me it was and always has been a tool to quickly add audio?midi tracks to a DAW project. I think it does that efficiently fix it's bugs and maybe add a couple other options and see what happens in Version 4 next year. I know Pipeline has pushed for volume andPan sliders. I have started to see his view especially on the volume sliders as some RT are louder than others and midi track. volume sliders would make it easy to hear a set of track prior to drag. panning, eh don't see the need I don't need to mix fully before dragging. I have to mix there in the DAW.

The plugin is never going to please everyone, just as BiaB doesn't. Same with any software. I suggest using it for what it does, and if it doesn't do everything. Find a way to do that.

By trade I Ama Locksmith. I have a van stuffed full of tools. Some are very specific, and others versatile. I don't throw any out cause they don't do what another tool does. I have at least a dozen ways to unlock a locked door. 5 different types of key machines, etc. They all have their purse. I need them all. The plugin does a lot of what I like to do. When I hit a wall I use another method.

I think because it was released originally still in Lemon Mode it has frustrated and lost a lot of new DAW users that thought, as you would, that it would be something really great.
It has now come along way since then but are all those users now lost for good ?
Would it have been better to develop it professionally first in the beta forum ? YES
If it was this year that it was publicly released how it is now, would it of made a lot bigger impact ? YES
So was it more profitable to do it how it was done or should it have been developed it into a RealPlugin first ?
Has the name been dirtied too much to win back users or is it too late ?
Going off half-cocked ? YES

I think it hurt me more than anyone else.

I have posted some ideas on how to make it a lot better, so when I'm not around they will have all that info, but I don't know if it will be allowed to be done or put off for years down the track ? As it was one hell of a fight just to get solo/mute buttons.
I suggested that in the RapidComposer beta forum and it was added a few days later. True Story.

As you can see things are too dead around here.
If I went over to DAW forums and posted this free BB Plugin there would be a lot more users.
Free Biab Plugin for Loops or as a Trial

Ha ha. I suggested nearly the same thing. Plugin+small package of Rts/Rds...$50 or under, to places like KVR , Pluginboutique, etc.

Plugin is almost looking good.
2 items I think a must. Nicer transport buttons and color themes.

The plugin hasnt reached a "tipping point" yet - where all the necessary gripes are out of the way and key - vital improvements needed for smooth DAW use added.

but once this plugin matures to the point that many pro producers and composers find it no longer fights *against* them - the BIAB plugin will become something such a wider user base find essential that - finally - PG will see that its the PLUGIN not the standalone that really needs developer resource.

sure as a standalone tool for students and practicers - BIAB standalone is the best there is -

but one could argue that adding stuff is just bloating BIAB in the same many say Cubase is bloated ( hence leading to newer "streamlined" DAWs such as Studio One to find an enthusiastic user base ) - but the BIAB plugin is yet to really get high visibility in the producer/composer space.

But once all niggles are out of the way- numero one niggle being the slow generate speeds when compared to BIAB standalone - then I really think muso-awareness of the plugin will begin to accelerate exponentially.

I also think when that happens its worth PG supporting and nurturing 3rd party realtrack/MIDI style suppliers in a similar fashion to how Native Instruments supports, licenses and nurtures 3rd party sample library "houses" - particularly in the orchestral and media composer markets - such as Spitfire and Orchestral Tools - Berlin Orch etc - where - given the right tool - pro-composers will pay premium prices to buy libraries and styles that amateurs, "bedroom producers" and hobbyists cannot afford.

To expand on what I wrote just now -

take for example NI's ACTION and EMOTIVE STRINGS libraries for Kontakt.

These use many recorded string motifs. Melodic and choral *patterns* - rather than single note samples.

And in many ways this is just a half way house towards the kind of thing BIAB could do.

Sure - ACTION and EMOTIVE strings are designed to be "played" - chiefly by the NI KOMPLETE range of controllers, LEDs etc etc.. or change chord/key types by means of special MIDI note combination - but really - when analysed - these are just loops. And BIAB generated Realtracks are just a more sophisticated "AI" style generation of audio files derived from very long audio source recordings, cut into form that conforms to the chord progression specified up-front by the user.

I think provided PG and BIAB offer a way to go in and edit the generated track once generated to more accurately match what the composer wishes ( the generated realtracks in BIAB often don't work for pros - chief niggle for me for example being jazz double bass parts - which aren't put together like a real jazz bassist would do it )

then the BIAB plugin will become a really powerful workflow productivity tool for the stressed and over-pressurised working composer.
And when not used in finished produce - can for sure be a source of inspiration in the way so many current libraries serve as just that- a spark to inspire - if not be in the final version passed on to some director or post-production house.

by the way... re "WHAT SAY YOU ALL?"

LOVE the Battlestar Galactica reference

Lots of current effort going on to fix bugs and features with VST-2021, but this is something that no one has mentioned that I have seen. I can tell you that VST seems much faster then previous 2020. Like a full selection of RTs over 100 bars in ~7-10 sec. I hope they tell us they did something to improve the speed, cause I have really noticed it.

And speaking of noticing, thanks for noticing that...

Pipeline has mentioned numerous times that the plugin uses a Band-in-a-Box background program to generate RealTracks.

2021 Band-in-a-Box has a new audio engine PG Music advertises as up to four times faster than the legacy audio engine. The 2021 audio engine handles more audio sample rates and audio bit depths than the legacy audio engine. A new and more refined pitch and time shifting tool is in place.

These updates should result in audio renders happening faster and sounding better.

As far as "real jazz player" the RT were played by "Real Jazz players, real rock players, real country players. As far as them not being perfect well that is unlikely to ever be perfect and completely editable as they are Audio not midi. Look at Melodyne one of the premiere audio manipulation programs in existence. As much as it is capable of it will never rival midi for customer editing capability. You realistically can't expect BiaB or especially the Plugin for that matter to have that level of sophistication. What it does it does very well.

Here is an example of what I mean. I had a close friend the other day send me a song file for a show project he needed. He said "can you duplicate this with band in a box". I said to a reasonable facsimile yes. exactly no. I can with a daw and a few days of hard work get pretty close. By downloading midi files, and editing them, run them thru expensive synths, playing certain parts personally and using a pile of Instruments like the aforementioned Kontact to komplete, etc. What I can do fast in BiaB if you need to song track quickly, is I can give you a song "in the style of" One that will have a very high end sound.

He said send one over and let me listen to it. I downloaded the chord sheet typed it into the chord sheet in the plugin, chose a style that was similar to the song, set the bar markers, changed bar setting so instruments came in and out as the original song had done. Next tried a couple RTs that matched the original fee a bit more. Dragged the tracks to my DAW, added EQ, Compression, Reverb to taste. Panned, and balanced the volume faders. Then mixed it down to a wave file and sent it over. 2 maybe 2 and a half hours of time. No it didn't sound like the original song in every fashion. Still the vibe was there and it was what you might call a take on the original. When he heard it he was knocked out by the clean crisp and very authentic take. When the singer for the show heard it she wanted a copy to practice to. She said it was in her opinion as good as the original.

To me that is a very useful tool. To test the results I build the same song file from scratch in the plugin and in the Main Biab program on two separate computers, one in Mac 2020, and the other in Win 2021. I used a slightly different piano in one, and a slightly different Acoustic guitar in another. My friend loved each and every one of them and wanted the stems to mix for the show.

Is the plugin perfect? No, does it do everything that everyone wants? No! Does it replace all other VSTis, or programs? No. bDoes it give the DAW user a solid tool to create music unlike any other tool available? Yes! I don't think the efforts of everyone involved from the talented team at PG to the users like myself, Mr. Pipeline, Mr. Pettit, Matt, the Fogle brothers, You yourself Mr. Dan, and the many others, has been wasted. I agree it should have been a bit more polished as it came out of the gate. You do have to admit though it has been at least useful through it all. Now it is pretty solid and does a ton of cool things.

Might be time for me to try it again. When I install my 2021 upgrade I will try to give it a fresh look and see if I can find a place for it in my workflow.

As much as I appreciate you guys who have been banging on this for 2+ years I personally have zero interest in participating in all that. I just want it to work. Same with my car. I bought a new one a few years back and a friend who loves mechanical stuff asked to see the engine. When I didn't know how to open the hood he was aghast to find I had purchased a new car without looking at the engine. My response was "I just assumed it had one."

JJJ, its a sickness we have.
And by the way, the VST has greatly matured now that it is past its terrible twos and enters year 3 ( and don't forget year 2 was a Covid year so that don't count) .

Who's fault is it that we now have a Biab Plugin, JJJ !
It was his original idea, he said "how about a new car", but I was the one to work out a way to make the engine as I could not see PG putting all the code into the actual VST then, so I said they could use the same engine RealBand users in the background.
Now we have come this far thanks to Adar's great programming skills,
I think it is now time to start moving the basic generate code into the Plugin, this can be done bit by bit for each function.
1st step I think would be rather than getting BBW4 to generate the track sections into RAM then render to wav, would be to just use the very first step of BBW4, the section data it decides to use from the RealTracks,
:Bar 1 = RT wav source file, time, length, pitch, stretch
:Bar 2 = RT wav source file, time, length, pitch, stretch
....
....
So the Plugin will just use this info to play direct from disk.
This will be a lot quicker to generate than generating even into RAM, so it will be quicker than Biab !
A wav will be rendered only if you DRAG, if not it will send the track playing direct from disk via the Audio Sends to the track in your DAW that will have the FX chain.
This way you can render the DAW project without the BB Plugin ever rendering a single wav.
BAND-IN-A-BOX VST DAW PLUGIN 2021.5 FOR WINDOWS/MAC®
Look Ma, no WAV!

You can try this if you have the wav version of RealTracks/Drums.
If you don't have wav just convert the 2 files from wma, m4a, aiff to wav first.
Open the Reaper project and point it to
bb\RealTracks\Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Hank Sw 120\AcG011.wav
and
\bb\Drums\NashvilleSwing8^\NashvilleSwing8^_110_Style.wav

* remove .mp4 and open in Reaper:

This is very interesting. But I have a big question......I have not tried this yet. My workflow is the export .wav file from BB then add the tracks to Reaper then continue on from there. If I want to try some different instruments or drums, I go back to BB and test out different styles etc then export out a single track with the new item. example add a tamborine.

What am I missing out on?

This is very interesting. But I have a big question......I have not tried this yet. My workflow is the export .wav file from BB then add the tracks to Reaper then continue on from there. If I want to try some different instruments or drums, I go back to BB and test out different styles etc then export out a single track with the new item. example add a tamborine.

What am I missing out on?

I have greatly reduced my time in BIAB when using the VST. The VST Allows me to stay in my DAW where I am making the music. BIAB is only one tool in my music making toolbox. My DAW is the entire workshop. With the VST I still get everything I need from BIAB with a greatly simplified workflow.

I've tried several times over the last 6 months to use the DAW plugin, but always run into either bugs or missing functionality that sends me back to the standalone. I use BiaB as a scratch pad for arranging, so frequently am adding/deleting/duplicating sections. I tried one song a couple of weeks ago using whatever the latest patch was at the time for 2021. I ran into problems with the insert measure functionality that I didn't realize was happening until my arrangement was beyond repair. Somehow the measures were being inserted at a different place than the cursor. It's something I do all the time in the standalone. So I'll probably give it another try in a month or so.

When you say "standalone" do you mean the standalone VST or the full standalone Band in a Box?

Standalone BiaB. I think a VST always requires a host program - DAW or otherwise. So not sure what standalone VST would mean.

C:\bb\BBPlugin\Files\Band-in-a-Box DAW Plugin Standalone.exe

Ah - didn't know that was there. So did they just put a VST Host wrapper code around the VST instance? I don't see a mixer - is there one?

No but hopefully there should be one there soon and maybe plugins so it will load the same plugins as well as any Utility tracks saved in the main Biab app.

As it is now seems like the main use is for developer regression testing outside of a specific VST host. Is there some other advantage, versus putting it in a DAW? Among other things, I don't see a way to generate output audio/MIDI files.

I was thinking earlier today it would be nice to have one really good/complete UI and app, and that focusing on VST might be the way to go for the future. Then it could be hosted in some standalone VST host if all the functionality were in place. There are so many nooks and crannies of functionality in the main BiaB app - keyboards, guitar displays, improved AudioEdit window, style editing - it didn't really seem practical to get totally away from the standalone app. But perhaps a more streamlined version for 95% of users - one that would be more accessible. I have a couple of musician friends I've tried to turn on to BiaB in the last few months, but they've given up after a short time.

Yes I had the same experience. This is Biab Lite.
It's not overwhelming like the Biab main app.
You just drag to render, stereo mix, separate tracks or all tracks.

I took the latest plugin (3.3.5) for a quick spin this morning, and still ran into some things that are showstoppers for me. Here some observations:

1. I started with a song that I had put together in the app, all RealTracks. It took the app 7 seconds to generate. The plugin took 40 seconds - regardless of whether using standalone plugin or inside Cakewalk. I'm guessing the VST is single threaded, whereas I think multithreading has been implemented in the app. (I'm running with an 8 core processor.)

2. I often change time signatures in a song, so in this one I made the last 8 bars 3/4 (from 4/4). I also slowed tempo down by 20%. When I played the song from the plugin (not Synced with DAW), playback just stopped at the third 3/4 measure. When I turned on sync and let the DAW provide the clock, it played through the end, but was noticeably different from the version in the app in that the real drums kept going in 4/4. Also I think there will always be an issue with syncing time and tempo, since I don't think there's a two-way sync capability (VST-to-DAW) for those kinds of things. So I didn't expect the tempo to slow down, and it didn't :-) (It did slow down when I played the same song via the Standalong Plugin, but still stopped after the second 3/4 measure.)

3. The + and - buttons for resizing the chord chart in the plugin don't work very well. I couldn't get the chords showing as large as I wanted them, and it seemed to stop resizing after a few hits.

Have to agree with much of what you have said. I can only add based on working with the VST for over two years that the BIAB-VST can indeed be stubborn and demanding regarding workflow. Whereas BIAB is known for having multiple ways to do the same thing, the BIAB-VST can only do things its way. So you have to adjust your workflow or be willing to jump back and forth between the standalone and VST.

However, your item 1 does not sound like a correct assumption. I am seeing much quick regens in the VST then you report. I get times which are comparable to the Standalone , especially with V3 which is now much quicker than V2. I imagine it is dependent on the number of RTs and number of bars. I generally will only have a handful for short sections. In addition, the standalong has historically had a unique algorithm where it will start playing a tune prior to completion of the generation. In RB and now the VST the generation has to be fully completed before it will play.

Otherwise, the VST just another tool to use.

DAn

The Plugin is still in development but is getting there.
There is a suggestion here I was trying to get them to implement
A VST to send Tempo/Play/Stop/Loop/Continue to main Biab app from DAW
it should be relatively easy to do.
What you can do with the BBPlugin is have another instance of the Plugin start sync at any bar by clicking the little arrow under Sync.
This way you can have another style or time signature and start sync at the bar where there is a time signature change, you can copy chords from one instance to the other.
You just uncheck the lead-in and ending if the song section does not need it.
The only issue is with the current version it's cutting the last bar off too soon so you don't get a seamless play, BUT hopefully that should be fixed soon.
This also allows you to regenerate sections, this is quicker than generating the whole song.
With generate time in the Plugin compared to Biab, Biab will chose the sections of RT from the source files, generate into RAM then start playing, BUT the Plugin will do that, wait for it to finish generating the whole track, then render to wav.
Here's is a better way that would be quicker than Biab:
Instant Generate & Play of RealTracks/Drums in BiabVST

I do see some references to parallel processing (SIMD) of rendered tracks in the enhancements list for 2021. This is a common technique for multithreaded audio and graphic rendering. I could easily see why this might not be enabled in a VST since most DAWs are managing threads and cores. But just speculating. My songs are almost exclusively RealTrack based.

“4X's faster audio DSP processing (using SIMD), allowing smoother playback & faster rendering for a larger number of tracks.”