Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back

Posted by: bcf

Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/15/21 12:57 PM

Hello;
I am using PT2021, 64 bit Build 4 on a Windows laptop but this has been a problem with earlier versions too. My issue is that I am using PT with my Casio PX-560 keyboard and would like to hear sounds I have recorded using the voices generated in the keyboard, not the computer. I have used the keyboard MIDI appendix to determine the desired Program Change and Bank (MSB) and when I use the Send option in the Patch Select Dialog menu option, I get the correct sound from the keyboard. After clicking on OK in the Patch Select dialog box, I see the specified instrument in the Track list and hear the correct instrument. The problem starts after I record something; on playback, the instrument I hear is always a Piano voice. Even if I change the track to a different patch, I still only hear a piano voice.
I have reached out to PG Music Support regarding this and have had little response from them. They suggested deleting the ptw.ini and ptpa.cfg 64 bit versions. This made no difference. Despite reporting this to them a week ago, I have heard nothing more from them.
I am hoping that one of the wizards in this forum might have a suggestion how to get the track-specified voice that I hear before recording. Any help is appreciated.
Barry
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/15/21 03:49 PM

Is the desired Track set to the right Port?

If you have 'Send All MIDI to DXi synth' (or close) selected, try turning that off.
Point the track Port to correct MIDI output.

Sounds to me like a routing issue during playback.
Then make sure the MIDI Channel data for that track matches what the synth is expecting to receive ..

Or maybe there is a Patch Map for that synth so all the MIDI uses it. Lots of possibilities.
Appears there is indeed a Patch Map for that keyboard here
https://www.pgmusic.com/support_miscellaneous.htm
May be worth a shot
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/16/21 07:46 AM

Thanks for your fast response rharv. I have verified that in the MIDI Driver Setup dialog box,the Reroute option is not checked and that my keyboard is selected for both input and output drivers. This was the case before I submitted my request for assistance.
I had previously converted a Cakewalk patch map for use in PT, but in case that was a problem, I uninstalled PT, searched and deleted any keys in the registry for "powertracks" and deleted the pt and Program Files\PowerTracks DirectX Plugins folders. I also uninstalled Real Band and deleted the bb folder. I then reinstalled PT2021 and added the patch map for my keyboard to which you so kindly pointed me.
The end result of all this was that there was no change to my issue. I can select a Patch using the Patch Select Dialog option and hear the correct voice but as soon as I start a recording, I'm only hearing piano.
Any other suggestions?
Barry
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/16/21 03:45 PM

Quote:
but as soon as I start a recording, I'm only hearing piano

While you are recording, or during playback after the fact?

Another option is to record the Audio from the keyboard into PT (instead of the MIDI), but that changes your editing options (Audio vs MIDI) after the fact ..
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/16/21 04:50 PM

It changes to piano as soon as I start recording. Thereafter, the recording always plays back in piano, even if I (try to) change the recorded track to another patch/voice.

Barry
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/16/21 07:46 PM

Check the Event List for Patch changes causing this maybe (?) on the given MIDI track
maybe that's causing the patch reset
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/17/21 06:55 AM

Hello again rharv. Thanks for your reply. I did a little test this morning. I've attached 2 files to this post. One is the Event List and the other is output using the MIDI Monitor. Here's the test and what I did to create the MIDI Monitor file:
1. Created a new song on track 1, set the Channel to 1 and chose the Casio PX560M E.Piano 1 patch in the Patch Select dialog box before pressing OK (result was an electric piano sound from the keyboard)
2. Cleared the MIDI Monitor data
3. Clicked on OK (still got an electric piano sound from the keyboard)
4. Cleared the MIDI Monitor data
5. Played middle C on the keyboard (still got an electric piano sound from the keyboard)
6. Cleared the MIDI Monitor data
7. Recorded just middle C (still got an electric piano sound from the keyboard)
8. Cleared the MIDI Monitor data
9. Played back the recording (got a grand piano sound).

The Event List only showed the result of playing the track. There may be some variation in the timing of the note played across the steps because I sometimes had to redo the step because I forgot to clear the MIDI monitor frown

I'm not great at interpreting MIDI data, so any suggestion of the source of the problem would be appreciated.

Many thanks!

Barry
Posted by: MountainSide

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/17/21 08:01 AM

Hi Barry! Rharv is giving you some good information here. I took a look at your MIDI data as well as the patch map for your keyboard.

No doubt Program #4 is the El piano so that seem to be OK. I'm not sure using GM banks that I could flush out the difference between an El piano and a Grand. Sometimes when looking at this type of info, I use a completely different instrument. For example, try using a guitar instead of similar instruments. Then the difference is more obvious between what you hear and what is recorded.

It almost seems like what is being recorded (the El piano) and what is being played back (the El piano) are one in the same, meaning that you are recording MIDI info as well as playing it back. In other words, the audio is not being recorded. A routing problem like Rharv said.

You can approach this in two ways. Either record the MIDI coming from the keyboard or record the audio from the keyboard. Each way requires you to set up the routing differently. Because I don't generally convert my songs to <P# audios, I just record straight MIDI and let RB or PT play back the recorded MIDI.

In that regards, how do you have the MIDI cables setup in your system? Do you have the MIDI out from the keyboard going into the MIDI in of your interface. Is the MIDI out of the interface going to the MIDI in of the interface?

On the track in PT that is being recorded, do you see MIDI data or audio wave forms? Looking at your Event list data, it looks like you are recording only MIDI data. But let's get that working right first begore we jump into audio recording.

Jeff
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/17/21 08:24 AM

Hello Jeff;
Thank you for your response. I'm definitely able to hear the difference between the Electric Piano and the acoustic Grand Piano; however, I've also done the same test with other instruments and the patch I'm hearing on playback from PT is definitely different than intended.
I want to work with MIDI files, as I want to be able to edit the files after recording. I occasionally need to fix a mistake when I play :-)
I'm definitely recording onto a MIDI track; I have chosen to disable the option to have the program record audio when a MIDI file is recorded.
I'm using the built-in USB interface on the keyboard and a standard USB cable to connect the computer.
Thoughts?
Barry
Posted by: MountainSide

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 06:41 AM

OK, that all makes sense. Can you post one of your songs here for us to take a look at? That would help to see what's going on.

Jeff
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 07:03 AM

Maybe try removing the StaffCTRL messages shown in your image.
If it is not a recent synth it may not know that CC 88 has a defined use now and the synth may be reacting to it in unknown ways. (?)

It used to be an open (undefined) CC so some manufacturers used it for proprietary features, a long shot, but worth checking.
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 01:19 PM

Hello again.
rharv, I deleted the StaffCTRL entries in the Event List; it made no difference. I still got piano.
Jeff, The forum doesn't permit SEQ files to be posted, so I uploaded them here:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgX4ohRdkH5xhfYUl-hj7Kz0VqGofQ?e=btcsYx

Please cut and paste the link into your browser.

There are 2 files; a simple C Major scale where, in PT, I specified the Casio patch for GM Organ 1. I get piano sound when I play this back using the Casio keyboard. I then saved it as a MID file, used a media player to listen to it and it played back as Organ. Then, as an experiment, I converted the track to a WAV file in PT and it played back as Organ too. I didn't bother to upload this file.

So, it seems that PT is doing what is necessary to use the right instrument. My keyboard is obviously the problem. Still trying to figure it out...

Thanks to you both.

Barry
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 02:07 PM


I tend to agree; the problem seems to be in the synth if other software(s) play it correctly .. sounds like the synth isn't set up correctly (or worst case incapable).

Do you have 'Send most recent ..' enabled for MIDI?
Maybe it's just not resetting
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 02:37 PM

The keyboard is receiving on all channels. I can set any channel I want or have multiple tracks on different channels and can hear them all...in piano voice :-(

And yes, my MIDI Out options are the same as yours.

Sigh...
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/18/21 03:13 PM

Sorry, trying best I can think of .. seems like a weird issue
If the keyboard is playing all MIDI channels in piano voice well that seems like a clue
Does it have a GM mode that is not getting turned on?

Again, it seems to point to the synth ..
Posted by: MountainSide

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/19/21 05:59 AM

Barry, I took a look at your files. Strange! Everything seems to be in order. I ran it through both RealBand and MS Media player and it plays correctly as an organ. It would seem that the info coming back to your keyboard is not being received or is being received incorrectly.

Earlier in the thread, Rharv mentioned using the correct PAT file for your keyboard. You are using this right?

Rharv mentioned deleting the StaffCntrl lines using the Event List. I've seen these entries too and have just left them alone on my system. Then again, I use only Yamaha hard synths and they might not respond to that. I think it has to do with which staff the notes appear to be from ( bass or treble cleff)...I just ignore them.

The crux of this seems to be the info returning to your keyboard. Somehow your keyboard is only seeing a call for a piano patch coming back and not the organ. This would tell me that PT is not communicating with your keyboard correctly. In other words, when you select organ from the patch select in your PAT file that infomation is not being sent from PT to your keyboard. As a result, the keyboard stays in the default piano (program #1).

Are you sure that you've loaded the patch map for your keyboard into PT? GO to EDIT, then MIDI, then CONVERT PATCH LIST FROM BAND IN A BOX OR CAKEWALK and load the patchlist Rharv mentioned. Then restart PT. The right click the track you want to work with. Select PATCH SELECT DIALOGUE and then at the top of the PATCH LIST box use the pulldown to select your keyboard.

Just some wild suggestions here in your keyboard setup:

1. Your keyboard is sending on all channels, is it receiving on all channels?
2. Is "local" turned off?
3. Is there an "omni" setting somewhere in the setup?
4. Take a look at the midi drivers again in PT, what do you have as the "input driver" and what do you have as the "output driver"?

Let us know....we'll get there!

Jeff
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/19/21 06:27 AM

Thanks to everyone for their input. I'm pleased to report progress...sort of.
Yesterday, I loaded one of the PT Sample files (F Blues) to test that the keyboard was receiving on multiple channels (which it is, as previously reported yesterday). Thinking about this overnight, it hit me that I was getting the specified instruments in the sample file (piano, bass etc.) Today, I loaded that same file and found that if I changed patches on one of the tracks, the change was recognized by the keyboard. So I deleted all the data from the sample file and saved the resulting empty file as the default template to be loaded when the program starts ($options.seq).
Now, when I start PT, it loads the $options file. I find I have to send one of the patches to the keyboard to get it to play in the associated voice, but once I've done that, other patches work fine; I can record, change instruments, edit etc. and so far, all has gone as expected.
There are some anomalies in other tracks that weren't part of the F Blues file, but I can work with what I've got for my modest needs (I think).
I'm not sure why this works, but I'm not going to argue with success:-)
Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. You definitely helped me to get to know MIDI and my keyboard better...
Barry
Posted by: MountainSide

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/19/21 06:45 AM

Alright! I think that you'll find success with these computer-based systems is measured in small steps not giant leaps. I'm still learning the ins and outs after 20 years! But glad to hear that you are on your way.

Jeff
Posted by: rharv

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/19/21 03:36 PM

Thanks for pitching in with way more detail than I supplied, Mountainside, seems to have worked!
And to OP; glad to hear you've made progress.

This stuff ain't easy sometimes, but neither is Photoshop smile
Posted by: algarve

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/20/21 07:32 AM

Hi,if the problem persists you can still delete the system exclusive message, if available. Start looking at the start of track 1 event list for the sysex message. If you don't find it try track 2 and so on. Remember, if there's such a message you'll have to delete it because if you don't, any patch change you try to insert won't work: the sysex message, if it includes a patch change midi message, will prevail.
Posted by: bcf

Re: Can Send a Patch but get only Piano when played back - 07/20/21 07:34 AM

Thanks algarve. I'll take a look.