If there is an easy way to program a simple quarter note rest, I can't find it in that voluminous user manual. A rest is a staple to music like potatoes are a staple food in Ireland!!

If there isn't an easy way to program a simple quarter note rest, there should be.

It is kind of ridiculous that it is that difficult to program timing events. All that dancing around with 6 and 66 and . and .. and some combination of all of the above is really a time consuming thing that shouldn't be.

How about a + for a whole note rest, ++ for a half note rest, +++ for a quarter note and ++++ for an 8th note?

I remember the hours and frustration I went through JUST to make half note triplets... shouldn't be that hard.

As this software stands right now, can we program rests?

Eddie,

Assuming I understand the question, there are two ways.

1. When you are entering your chords in BB, enter the first chord followed by a dot. Then enter a comma. Then enter the second chord. Looks like this: Bb.,Bb

2. You can do it on the Notation editor although it takes longer. In the bar above the notes, there is a box that says Rest. Check that, click your mouse where you want the rest.

If I didn't understand the question, I'm sorry.

I would like to see how you do the triplet. I can do them but it is a pain.

2b

How do I do beats 3 and 4 where there is no chord at all?



I never DID get the half note triplets be precise. I could do it if I could assign rests, like in real music notation.

I just want them to put in a SIMPLE way to do this.



So when I need beats 2, 3, and 4 to be silent, I can do it by inserting 3 of those. Including making generated backing tracks stop playing. So in the chord chart, It's be C,+,+,+ (or something similarly simple) for one beat of C and then 3 silent beats. No dot, no caret caret, no &@^#$, and all done while standing on one leg. Simple. Like a +. That whole "push" thing is counter intuitive. You aren't pushing. You are pulling. Pushing means move it to the right. The caret pulls it to the left. Call it a pull already. I am 10 years into this thing and I still have no idea what a shot or a hold is. I know shot as a one ounce beverage, the things I get into my eyes every month, and the thing I take at the gun range. Is the term "shot" onomatopoeic? It makes the sound of a rimshot? If not, let's name it something more accurately descriptive.

As far as the notation editor thing, that sounds like having a part time job as a programmer. Plus, I don't even know what the notation editor is. If I have to do all that just to put in a rest, I will just play the parts manually in real time. It will be faster.

Hi

Yes as said, in editable notation mode in Realband it works very much like in BIAB
That is when you enter a note it acquires a a value of a whole note and then gets its real value depending where you place the next note.
The same is true for rest just tick the box for rest at top of page and enter the rest where you want it to start, you will get a whole note rest, its final value will depend where you enter the next note.
The tick in rest box will deselect itself to return you to note entry mode as soon as you have entered the rest.
So has to bee selected each time you want a rest instead of a note at any beat.

See pic

I think if you just enter the same chord with a dot after it on the second half the measure it rests for the 2 beats, but I don't use this method a lot so there may better explanations coming.

Like for one measure enter 'Em' (hit enter, goes from beat 1 to beat 3) enter 'Em.' (with the dot and hit enter).
This normally stops playing on beat 3 for that measure.
Going from memory though.

Highlite and "cut keep gap. in track view.

I have tried that in the past John, and it does work, but it often doesn't sound "natural" enough, particularly with the drums. That results in having to find the exact kind of drum hit that sounds right and pasting that, and on and on. There has to be a way for them to give us a simple, effective way to program in a rest from the chord entry screen. Good option, though.

Eddie,

As far as wanting to sound a chord only on beat 2 of the measure. Suppose the chord you want is G. From the chord entry screen:

G.,G G.

If you don't want it to feel like programming, you might be better off playing it.

Hope it all works out for you.

2b

One of the things BIAB does really well is create additional material of elements needed for your RealBand song such as fills, holds, shots, rests and crossfades.

I know Eddie prefers RealBand to BIAB but adhering to a quote I think a lot of; “Never Be So Sure of What You Want, That You Wouldn’t Take Something Better” – Chris Voss

I suggest you try the following in BIAB.

Create a Chord Sheet in BIAB in the Key Signature, tempo and feel of your RB project. Rather than create the project's Chord progression, create part marker fills, create shots, holds and rests and create short chord progressions where a cross fade is needed.


Use the instruments you've chosen for your RB project and export the individual WAV files created from this 'additional material' chord chart and import them into your RB project. You will have lots of extra material in your RB project to cut and paste into areas like Silvertones recommended above.


Since the BIAB project is focusing on elements rather than the structure of your project, you can render tracks without regard to the length of your RB song and can generate elements in all the different chords used in your RB project song and continue to generate until BIAB has run out of what ever amount of shots, holds, rests, fills that's available in the RealTracks instrument audio files.

In effect, your session musicians have recorded bucket loads of overdub fills, holds, shots and rests for you to load into unused RB tracks and have available to enhance your RealBand project Realtracks tracks.

Charlie, can you tell me in 25 words or less what a "shot" is? I have no clue what that term means in the context of music other than a rimshot. I can take a guess from context that it might mean one quick hit of a chord and then silence. It's like when people say the ^ sign is a push. Well, no, actually it's a pull. It pulls the next note back in time rather than pushing it forward in time, so why not call it a pull? That's what I mean. Jargon.

Here's where I have a problem.

Many people, all trying to be helpful, post replies that contain what I will call "assumed knowledge". I have had this software for 10 years now and have never once run BIAB. I have seen demos on youtube, and I just don't like the look of that screen with that little mini mixer thingy in the top right quadrant. I mix on a mixer with channel strips. I prefer a more DAW feel, because I came from Sonar and then Pro Tools. I liken a lot of the jargon here to listening to a NASCAR driver talk after a race. "Yeah the car was a little tight in turn 1 and I had them adjust the center wing and then it was loose and then I had to deal with the 6 coming up high...." and the only word I understand there is "car". Tight? Loose? I don't watch NASCAR. I simply don't know. I understand that BIAB was first and the old timers never bothered to try Real Band. In fact I think it was you that pointed that out to me in an old post. Real Band is more what I know and I would feel like I was moving backwards to use BIAB.

See, I wrote tech manuals at one point in my IT life. And I learned that when you explain something, you have to explain it like you are trying to teach a 6 year old kid how to build a circuit. Transistors, resisters, capacitors.... To do that you have to teach what a transistor is: what a resistor is.... That's what I mean by "assumed knowledge". Here's a great example. If you put "shot" into the help search, you get this:

A chord can be specified as a shot by adding two periods after the chord. But it never specifies what "shot" means.

Then there's something similar to "Just load the dll file..." Load it where? That's "implied knowledge". Like telling somebody "This is 12 bar blues" and they don't know what a bar is. (And yes, I have been on stage with people who knew so little about music that they didn't know what a bar is, much less what 1-4-5 means.)

I had to write a manual for a modem. Now this was for customers who had already used modems in their life. But I had to actually include a line that said "Locate the on/off button, which is marked with a - on one side and a + on the other. Press that switch so the side under the + is depressed. A green power indicator light will turn on." I honestly had to write that for adults to know how to turn on their modem. I though that was ridiculous until I had a call from someone in Georgia asking how to turn it on.

And for someone blindly walking into this software, that's the level the instructions need to be. I am that person in Georgia who couldn't figure out how to turn her modem on. 3 CDs worth of music later and I know maybe 25% of what this software will do. That's mainly because at my age I am not interested in science projects. I just want to write songs and tell my stories. I have 4 songs sitting on the runway right now waiting for takeoff clearance because I can't figure out how to do some subtle timing things. I mean, can't they make it so you can say "In measure 46 play half note triplets - you know, like the drum fill that Hal Blaine made famous"? Rather than dots and slashes and dashes and all this cryptic stuff. I'm an old guy with a bad memory and from session to session I don't remember "3 carets and 2 dashes and then 3 question marks" or whatever sanskrit is required to write syncopation. Not all music is right on the beat. See my frustration?

<<< Charlie, can you tell me in 25 words or less what a "shot" is?>>> Yes, of course I can but there's no need. The help file explained everything thing you need to know in order to create a 'shot' in 15 words. It doesn't matter if it's an actual musical term or a word exclusive to BIAB. Simply, from within the BIAB program, enter any chord with two periods following the chord and you have a 'shot'. Do this in any bar of the chord chart. Enter C.. press play and you'll instantly know what a shot is and if's its something desirable or not to use in your song or any subsequent project, old or new you work on.


As you said, I'm only trying to be helpful. I'm fully confident BIAB is the right tool to efficiently and effectively solve the issue you're having in your RB project. I'm confident it is a better solution than you'll get using RB exclusively. You get to decide whether it's worth your time.


Your level of proficiency with BIAB is irrelevant to using it to create these elements listed. Chords are entered into the BIAB chord chart the same as they're entered in RB. Chord progressions are the same. The Chord Charts are very similar between the two. I read your posts so I'm not assuming or implying anything about your knowledge base of BIAB or musical prowess or education level of music theory. Part markers are the same between BIAB and RB. I know you know what a chord is, a part marker, key signature, tempo and so forth are regarding RB, and therefore because of the similarities, also BIAB.

When you said, "I have tried that in the past John, and it does work, but it often doesn't sound "natural" enough, particularly with the drums. That results in having to find the exact kind of drum hit that sounds right and pasting that, and on and on. There has to be a way for them to give us a simple, effective way to program in a rest from the chord entry screen. Good option, though." My reply was to tell you there is a simple, effective way to program in a rest from the chord entry screen. But this simpler and more effective way resides in BIAB chord chart in comparison to results you'll get using RB.

Eddie your writing about frustration with implied knowledge is right on brother! I have ranted on and on about that for years, not just here but to anybody who will listen concerning any software. This is exactly why I have said for 15 years on these forums the help files need to be rewritten. I stopped years ago doing it on a weekly basis because nobody from PGM ever responded much less done anything about it.

A shot is a punch like the intro to Spinning Wheel by Blood Sweat and Tears. The first bar is a series of shots in Biab parlance. Shots are also something that have never worked well because they don't include drums but that's another thread. Technically they do include drums but they're so weak it doesn't matter.

If you're using RB to generate Biab tracks then you should understand how the parent program works. It really is important to what you're trying to do with RB.

The thing about software is it's all easy once you learn it!

Bob

Okay then! "Shot" equals "stab" or "hit".

Someday I would like to play devil's advocate with the people who claim "With Band In A Box you can be writing songs in minutes without any knowledge of music!!"

Really?

Them: Just open the chord sheet and enter your chords!

Me: What's a chord?

Them: You know, the chords from the key you are in.

Me: What's a key?

Them: You know, A or E, or G

Me: How about L or P? Can I write my song in the key of P?

Them: Well, there's no key of P.

Me: Oh. What are there? I know A, E and G from your message.

Them: Keys are named in every letter from A to G.

Me: Oh. Ok. So I can put in A, then B, then C, then D.....

Them: Well, no, you need to follow a progression.

Me: What's a progression?

Them: It's the pattern of how the keys follow each other in a song.

Me: Doesn't the software do that?

Them: No. You have to enter the key names.

Me: But you said I didn't need to know music.

And so on. I can play dumb with the best of them. (Don't say it.....!)

And that is the "implied knowledge" factor here. To make songwriting sound so easy is to really belittle every songwriter out there. You need an idea, some modicum of fluency with English to write the lyrics, and basic music knowledge to enter the chords. And then shall we move on to styles?

Them: Then you can pick your style.

Me: What's a style?

And on and on we continue with a musical theory version of Who's On First. I mean, I am about 4 CDs worth of music into this software, and that doesn't count the stuff I started and just threw away because they were garbage, and I have never used BIAB. Having never looked at it I can only guess, but it seems like BIAB is the Bunny Slope and RB is the Black Diamond slope. For those who don't know what that metaphor means, the bunny slope is the ski slope that is all but flat. The black diamond signs mean it's the hardest slope on the mountain, for experts only. It's just my personality but I will usually pick the harder path first. When I played video games I always started on expert mode. The only time I was on skis I went right to the hardest slope. And I didn't ski more than about 15 feet. The rest was tumbling down the mountain. Which is the perfect metaphor for my fist year or so with Real Band.

But back to bidness, yes, people who speak with implied knowledge are hard to understand. I once saw someone here explain how a major chord is 1-3-5. Okay, back to the dumb guy character?

"What's a 1?"
"It's the root."
"What's a root?"

I like learning new things so the language of music does not bother me.

Recently I sat in on a live podcast where the guy was talking way, way over my head.

BUT, I grabbed onto what slash chords (inversions) are so I learned something new.

I was happy with the results. That one little thing make up for what started out as a really bad afternoon.

...Deb

Eddie, the issue with you playing devils advocate above is it's not who you are in the realm of BIAB and RB. You're creating a persona of someone that in reality would not pay $129 - $570 or more for a software when they have no musical concept of terminology or a semblance of ability to replicate the sound of a song. With nothing more than changing the language, BIAB/RB functions worldwide without varying a single music theory. Second, I can claim "With Band In A Box you can be writing songs in minutes without any knowledge of music!!" and I can have a six year old that's familiar with no more than one song an average 6 year old would be expected to be familiar with - input and play that song using BIAB in five minutes or less. Understand that it's just as plausible and possible to take that average 6 year old and a dog that neither understands nor speaks English (or any human language) and the child can teach the dog to 'sit' on command within that same five minute time frame.


It enlightens me to the weakness of your argument to the extremism you assign to the level of 'implied knowledge' in order to make the point that one must have an idea, some modicum of fluency with English to write the lyrics, and basic music knowledge to enter the chords and styles.


Everyone who has completed a song using BIAB or RB can demonstrate and instruct someone else how to replicate the steps they took for the one that has not entered a song in BIAB or RB to do the same. If that person does not know a C chord from an EBb7add9 won't matter at this point - BIAB comes prepackaged with the C chord in place. A person with no degree in music or knowledge of BIAB terminology can determine a 'Style' simply from instructions to where the Styles are located and how to navigate to the StylePicker and how to audition and ultimately select a Style from the list. Then instruct them how to use the transport controls to listen to their song they created using BIAB. It really is that easy to instruct a complete novice how to replicate input of a song into BIAB.


If you change your minimum implied knowledge user credentials to what is more likely to be the average person that will seek out and buy BIAB and you'll see the program is quite intuitive to understand and use at the entry level.

Just play metal. Rest? What rest? We can rest when we die..... right now.... PLAY!

Rawk on, duuuuuuude!!!!! LOL!!!

What I ended up having to do for my application was the chord name and 2 dots.

I needed it to play

1 2 3 4 1 rest rest rest
1 2 3 4 1 rest rest rest

for 8 measures at the head and then a few places in the song.

You guys won't likely ever hear it though because it's for something I have had going on for about 5 years where I am taking songs and redoing them in totally different grooves, but since I didn't write them I can't post them and I can't sell them on CD.

Ain't No Sunshine is a heavy metal song now. I Wish It Would Rain is reggae.... and so forth. Just me playing with stuff. Not a serious project. Thus the 5 years and counting time lapse.

Eddie,
I have my most fun with RB when I find the time to experiment like that.
Even more so when just experimenting and coming up with new song ideas, instead of working the other way.
Glad you're having fun 'playing with stuff'.

Oh, I wish. I start off doing it for fun but then my overachieving intensity takes over and I end up way too serious about it.

The struggle is real Eddie.

This is exactly why I can't be in a band. It starts okay but after 2 weeks of rehearsal everybody hates me and they quit.

Things you don't want to do at my rehearsals:

Show up late.
Look at your cell phone.
Not know your material.
Not know your part inside that material.
Make the same mistake twice.
Not know what a simple music term like "downbeat" means.
Walk in with a bag of food and think you are going to eat before or during rehearsal.
Drink anything but water or iced tea.

All of the above are rude and disrespectful to the rest of the band who wants to do it right. This ISN'T fun. This is a job. If you have a day job, you give this job the same attention and respect you give to that job. What IS fun is when you get to be so good that there isn't another band in town that can touch you. But it takes a lot of hard work to get there.

Oh, and add to the list, disagree with me about a music point.

So yes, the struggle is real. And why I choose not to "struggle" anymore.

Applying different styles to classic songs is tons of fun. I have 8 versions of Comin Home. The Urban Grunge one is the most weird...

And, I've been doing Take Five as a raggae (keeping it in five) for years now. Some songs just need a refresh imho.

Bob