Some clarification on RB Generate command please

Posted by: jonel

Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 07:40 AM

I have asked about this feature some time ago but I'm still not clear on how this really works.

I want to generate Midi and Midi Supertracks for a BiaB song that I have opened. The way I think this works is that the ability to generate either of these two types of tracks will depend entirely on the style attached to the loaded BiaB song. If the BiaB song is attached to a RealTracks style then there is no way in which RB is going to generate Midi. I have enabled RealCharts for such styles so I can get at least some midi.

If I change the style in RB then I can select an appropriate style that contains midi or a midi supertrack, but I don't want this to interfere with the tracks that are already there from a previous style.

Ideally I would like to simply select a BiaB style in RB and then use that for a track. Is this even possible in RB.

Could anybody help to clear this confusion please?

Thanks
Posted by: Mike Head

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 10:15 AM

Hi Jonel

In BB you can have what you like on any track.
First right click on any empty track and choose midi or audio depending what you want on there.(track type)
You can in Realband then just generate the selected track or even part of the track,
Without disturbing the other tracks .
See icon at top of page.click and choose from menu.
Mike
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 10:50 AM

Hi Mike,
I know you must be correct but I'm doing something incorrect because I simply can't do this, well at least not always.

I have loaded a BB RealTracks song that holds my chord progression and style that I am happy with. Now I open this song in RB. Now I want to add some tracks of my own, in addition to those generated by the song in RB.
When I select an empty track and use the Generate command to create midi Bass, for example, I am told that a Midi Bass track was not found in the current style.

I know that if I now load a new style that DOES contain Midi then I wil;l be able to generate, but now I stand to have my existing tracks change (unless I freeze them).

I was hoping to be able to select from a list of styles just the Midi Bass I was looking for, without changing the existing song!
Posted by: Bob Calver

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 01:11 PM

i don't think it regenerates the other tracks. if you know the style you want change to the midi style you've chosen. then right click on the empty track where you want the new midi, generate midi track and choose the bass part or piano part. it will only generate on that one track.

at least that's what happens when i do it. choose an empty track and make sure its midi not audio.

don't try to use one of the BIAB tracks tracks 1- 6 ish choose an empty one further down. you can then mute the original bass part - if you are trying to overwrite it that may be the problem

if you want to audition different styles go back to BIAB try the styles without saving the file. if you find a style you like a quick way to do what you want is to export the BIAB song as a midi file. close BIAB without saving to leave your original track unchanged. open the midi file in RB and copy the track you want to the clipboard.

close without saving. open the original RB file and paste the midi track you copied. that's how i did it in PowerTacks for years and it allows you to audition the styles in BIAB and export and copy and paste midi without overwriting he original files.

its also the easiest way to audition lots of styles. if you are trying to audition styles in RB that also might be your problem.

Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 02:17 PM

Thank you Bob. What you say supports my thoughts on what has been going wrong for me. I find the manual a bit hazy with regards to midi when RealTracks have been used.

It appears that if RealTracks have been used in the BiaB song then forget all about midi when the song is opened in RB. Of course if the RealTrack has a RealChart then this can be enabled in RealBand and the resulting Midi used.

But this is not how I thought the whole midi feature working for me. For example, I wanted to use the Guitar part of the BiaB song, but also create a second harmonising Guitar part from another style.

I think I can do this directly in RB. Having opened the BiaB song in RB I can now select a different (midi) style with an appropriate Guitar part and use this to generate the harmonising midi Guitar part. This does work for me but it feels tacky in the sense I have had to load a complete new style with the old style no longer available (to regenerate the original tracks if needed). This was also where I was concerned that the existing tracks that I am happy with might get accidentally regenerated.

Perhaps its not meant to work that way.

i would be interested in what you think of my comments.

Jonel
Posted by: Mike Head

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 02:49 PM

Hi

My thinking on this is don’t choose a style just choose a realtrack from:
Choose a track after the last blue BIAB track and make it an Audio track
Go to the generate menu (top of page) and select and generate Realtrack chose from list of realtracks.

If you want to use a midi super track or harmony track etc choose that fro the generate menu.But in this case you must set the track type to midi.
Mike
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 03:16 PM

Hi Mike,
I'm assuming the start point here is that I have my BiaB RealTrack song loaded into RB and it has created it's (empty) BB tracks and it's populated RealTracks. I go to the first track at the end of this list and generate a RealTrack of my choosing. This is great, but I have been able to do this before. Also with the creation of the Midi Supertrack, I have been able to do this before also.
Both of these operations are logical with what I had expected of RB. What I'm really not sure of is why I can't create and ordinary standard midi (Bass, Guitar etc) In the same way that I've just chosen a RealTrack or Midi Supertrack. But instead, when I try to do just this I get a warning box that this part is not available in the current style! So what? Why can't I choose a style in the same way as for the other track types. There are a lot available.

Is there a reason that this can't be done?

Thanks

John
Posted by: rharv

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 03:24 PM

One way to 'know' you won't regenerate your existing tracks is to go to 'Track- Make all BiaB tracks regular tracks'. It's a right-click option.

Once done, you can select any track(s) or section of a track(s) and generate to your hearts content.
The complication/confusion comes when RB tries to act like BiaB & generate all the blue BB tracks for whole song as a default behavior.

Once I am in RB I want to leave this behavior behind, so I use the 'Track-Make all BB tracks regular tracks' option. Then you are working in more of a DAW environment.
You can still generate whatever you want in whatever style you want, but you don't risk accidentally regenerating tracks you wanted to keep. You have to intentionally select what you want to change.

The warning you mention is likely because one of two things happened.
Your selected Style doesn't have the desired content (so pick a different Style that has the MIDI bass or whatever)
Or the Track Type is wrong; you are trying to generate MIDI on an audio track or vice versa.

Make sure you select Generate MIDI if you want MIDI, and make sure the track is a MIDI track.
If it says there is no MIDI bass track so nothing was generated, select a different style that has it.
Every style is different.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/10/20 06:14 PM

jonel,

Perhaps part of the things causing confusion is your mind is subconsciously thinking of styles and instruments interchangeably. If I'm wrong, please just skip the rest of this post.

A style defines the initial feel (swing or straight), time signature (3/4 or 4/4), tempo (BPM) and mixer settings of a song file. Styles can also have midi patterns embedded in the five accompaniment tracks of piano, bass, drums, guitar and strings. Band-in-a-Box and RealBand can use the midi patterns embedded in a style to create midi data for playback by midi instruments when a track is assigned a midi instrument.

PG Music uses two basic musical instrument groups, audio and midi. Audio musical instruments include: Acidized audio loops, RealTracks, PG Music Artist Performance Tracks, UserTracks, user audio files and user or third party created Artist Performance Tracks. Who knows, I may have forgot to mention one or two audio musical instruments.

Midi musical instruments include regular midi and PG Music's SuperTracks. Regular midi uses midi data generated by the midi patterns inherit in a style and an instrument patch initially selected by a style However the instrument patch can be substituted by the user. PG Music's SuperTracks use midi data and Hi-Q instrument patch embedded in the SuperTrack. Any midi data or instrument selection in a style is ignored. SuperTrack Hi-Q instruments can be substituted but using non Hi-Q patches can be difficult.

The difference between Band-in-a-Box and RealBand can be simplified as: Band-in-a-Box requires a style to open and operate. RealBand requires a style only to create midi data. Band-in-a-Box generates all tracks that are not frozen. RealBand generates what a user selects. Both programs require a chord sheet.
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 01:29 AM

The situation regarding making the BB track ordinary tracks really clarified a lot to me; so thank you for that. I'm guessing it was the influence of this behaviour in BiaB. Now that I know it can be independent and regenerate only when explicitly selected, I am very happy with that.

Regarding the problem with generating Midi though. It is the former situation of the two that you mention that is causing me a problem. I suspected that the generation process required the part to be already in the loaded style and I had already experimented with pure midi styles that did contain the parts I needed and this worked fine.

But this is where I question the logic of the RB process. By having to load a completely different style in order to furnish a midi part, I have to make a record of the style that I have just replaced (just in case I need to go back and regenerate the tracks it was used for). This could potentially get quite messy. Or... say I did load a new style into RB, if I subsequently tried to re-generate a track that was created by a replaced style, would RB 'remember' this style if I tried to simply re-generate the track. If this was the case then the problem is solved.

But I don't see how the process for selecting a Midi part cannot be the same as that for RealTracks and Midi Supertracks; in both of these processes I am presented with a list of styles to choose from.

I hope I am being clear.

John
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 01:40 AM

Jim, that is a great help, although I'm not really sure I understand all of it and will go back through it again.

It was the use of the midi data I was interested in with regards to how I might generate those from a different style. RealTracks and Midi Supertracks provide me with a list of styles from which I might choose a part. Ordinary midi, on the other hand, requires me to audition and load a style that contained that part. This process worried me because now I would have 'lost' the style that other tracks had been generated from and, if I need them again, would have to record what these styles were; perhaps in the comment.

But now after reply from rharv, I might have been thinking about this wrongly. It may be, that even if I do load a new style, that if I go to a previous track and regenerate it then RB itself will 'remember' the style from which it was generated. If this really is case then at least I can work quite happily with that.

Thanks

John
Posted by: Bob Calver

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 01:47 AM

I think RealTracks stand on their own as individual entities recorded by a musician so they can be called up separately.

Apart from the fact that there are hundreds of midi only styles which would make lists unacceptably long, i think (and i may be wrong)midi instruments in a style only exist as patterns in the overall style so don't actually exist as separate entities.

the methods i described may seem clunky but after a few tries are quick and easy. i've done it for years and the ability to audition styles in BIAB means you are not shooting blind in your choice of a style from which to pick the midi part you want.
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 02:05 AM

Bob, you give some excellent advice and I am in the process of trying to convert this into my workflow but just a couple of questions please?

1. Once I have saved the BiaB song an copied the required track to the clipboard, when this midi is placed in the track I assume it will respond to changes in tempo etc of the RB song.
2. What happens if I regenerate this type of track?

As it stands at the moment I know I can load a style into RB which does contain the midi that I want. But, having done so, if I go back and regenerate tho original tracks with RB 'remember' the style from which to regenerate it?

Thanks
Posted by: rharv

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 02:30 PM

Will RB remember the style?
Not that I am aware of.

One suggestion for new feature would be that it include the style in the Track name.
The generated RealTracks get named with a name that includes the RT used.
Maybe generated MIDI tracks should have the track name tell you the style that was used.
Might be a nice way to go.
Never paid attention before that the naming convention was different.

The Generate MIDI Solo, MIDI Supertrack and Harmony features all add recently used info in the Favorites option, maybe this would be good for general MIDI tracks also (?)
It narrows down what you have used recently at least.

There is also the option (aka workaround) to edit the track name and add the style if you want, or like I used to do when I was more MIDI oriented, use the Comments window for project notes. Like which synth/patch a given track was routed to originally.

TBH, when recording raw audio tracks I usually go in and give the track a name so I know in the future WHO recorded the track and how.
Example - Lee GTR Tele Patch 17 on whatever FX unit he used. Much better than 'Stereo Audio'.
Its the old school guys with the dozen analog pedals on a board that ruin this theory though. <grin>
In that case we take pictures of the settings.

Like the bass player's dials on his bass, and the amp dial settings .. can save time in the long run.
Sometimes documenting things seems a pain but is usually worth it, especially if revisiting years later.
Most pro recording guys I know make lots of notes .. mic placement, which mics, which equipment ..
Even a screenshot can be valuable info.
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 03:26 PM

Right, to all of you responding to my post, thank you very much. I feel like I have won the lottery because the fog has cleared. The suggestions made and various comments by you experts allowed me to have a complete aha experience. My understanding of RB was really quite confused when I started this post. So much so that I hardly used it much.

I really wanted to use those many BB midi styles to generate tracks (or parts of tracks) in my RB songs by I was unsure of the best way to proceed. I realised that I could only create a midi part on an RB track if the current style actually held that part and since my style had all RealTracks then there was no possibility and hence all the confusing messages that the part was not in the current style.

To get a part from another style I would have to load that style into into RB. But what would this do to my existing tracks if I wanted to regenerate any of them? What if I had to load yet another style, would RB remember that track I've just created with a now replaced style?

Well Bob Calver gave me some good ideas. Rharv showed me how to protect the BB tracks by turning them into ordinary tracks.

Now came the cruncher, would RB remember a replaced style if I needed to regenerate it? You bet it does! This was my nicest moment (sounds silly getting all excited about this, but it opens so many possibilities)

First I loaded my song into RB, fresh from completion in BiaB, complete with the style from which it was generated.

Now I made the BB tracks all normal tracks. I then tried to regenerate these and this worked (sometimes it missed out the 4-bar intro though, so I will need to see to that later).

Next I went in to BiaB and auditioned various styles with the existing song. I found one with a good strumming guitar part so I identified it.

Back in to RB and I load the new style and create my guitar part. I'm spoilt for choice because I can create any of the other four parts also. But I'm not greedy, I really want to go for another style.

But first, I go back and attempt to regenerate a track from the original song and, what do you know, RB remembers the style that created it and voila, I have freshly minted guitar track. Now I get RealStrat on it and it sounds fantastic.

Now back to BiaB in search of another style to get a Bass replacement part. I've identified the new style and so, back in to RB and load this style in. Now I generate a brand new Bass part and test this with a lovely Kontakt Amped Bass Guitar and this sounds good also.

More importantly, I go back to the midi track generated by the now replaced style and try to regenerate it. Wow, it remembers and another newly minted guitar track comes in to existence.

So, all my concerns gone. A few little niggles to deal with but now I have a much clearer picture of what I am doing.

So, thank all of you very much, such a knowledgeable and patient group of experts.

Regards

John
Posted by: rharv

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 04:51 PM

Glad you found joy
I'm smilin'
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/11/20 06:21 PM

jonel,

You've asked excellent questions. I've learned some things from this post and I hope rharv and Bob Calver also have learned some things.

Thanks for the conversation! I've enjoyed it.
Posted by: Bob Calver

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/13/20 06:50 AM

glad you seem to have it sorted. sorry for not replying earlier but i've been away for a weekend escaping lockdown.

once i'm in RB its very rare i want to regenerate midi as i've usually sorted the part in BIAB so i can't help with regenerating and remembering styles.

i do often regenerate bits of RealTracks and multiriffs are great for that.

glad you are sorted!
Posted by: Pipeline

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/13/20 03:06 PM

Ages ago when I was using RB I asked for this:
See Full Screen
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/14/20 07:54 AM

Yes, that's exactly what I was alluding to when I first started this post and although it's been said that there are too many styles for such a list, I disagree. There are many, many applications where very large choices are to be made, such as loops and one-shots and these applications cope quite well with that. Your post should really shows RB the way ahead and it would certainly make the product much more intuitive.
Posted by: jonel

Re: Some clarification on RB Generate command please - 09/14/20 07:57 AM

Hi Bob, you did help a great deal. Now that I know that RB does remember those styles I'm happy as a pig in doo dah. I know you say you don't use midi in a regenerate situation, but I find it almost indispensable for variation of parts within a track.