get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention

Posted by: robbey10

get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 03/31/18 11:02 PM

The number 10 channel drum track is dated and annoying VST's are so different than the original midi driver that it is an annoyance to have to skip a channel for every 10th one. it would really bring Powertracks and Realband into the 21st century.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 04/01/18 04:22 PM

-1

No. I could not disagree with this thought more.
Posted by: jford

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 04/02/18 05:22 AM

That's not up to PGMusic, because it's part of the MIDI standard. And dropping support will mean every vendor that supports the MIDI standard would also have to change.

The standard would have to change first, and even then I suspect there would be an option for backward compatibility because of the preponderance of already existing content that relies on the standard.

-1 for me also.
Posted by: VideoTrack

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 04/08/18 11:13 AM

I have to agree with Jim and John. Sorry.
-1 also.
Posted by: Noel96

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 04/08/18 08:56 PM

robbey,

I'm not sure that I'm following when you mention 'skipping every tenth one'.

Unless my understanding is wrong, one doesn't have to use channel 10 exclusively for drums. It's particularly applicable if running a general midi synth VSTi/DXi but, other than that, if using a non-general midi synth other instruments can be assigned to channel 10.

Is your request about the fact that when a MIDI track is set to channel 10, the name "Drums" is automatically added?

Regards,
Noel
Posted by: jford

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 04/09/18 08:07 AM

I'm not meaning to be snarky here. i just want to understand.

I believe that this is one of those MIDI conventions you should know if you are getting into MIDI work. Just like tracks and channels are different. Channel 10 doesn't have to be on track 10. Yes, if you import a MIDI file, it tends to match tracks to channels, but you are free (even in PowerTracks and RealBand) to move them around as you see fit. You can make track one be the drum track (I do that all the time), just like you can in all the other 21st century DAW's (which also support channel 10 for General MIDI drums).

And every 10th doesn't make sense to me unless you are using multiple MIDI outputs, since a MIDI port only supports 16 channels (so there can only be one channel 10), but you can put the same channel on multiple tracks.

Just trying to better understand this request.

Posted by: robbey10

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/01/18 05:08 PM

Have you people tried others, I use Sonor for my final rendering, and you don't have every 10th channel blocked for drums nor does Abelthon or any of the new sequencer? With all the new VST's you put things where you want them and on the channel that you want them. So, if other sequencers can override that, I don't see why I should waste every 10th channel for the same drum track.
Posted by: robbey10

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/01/18 05:20 PM

No you don't have to use it for drums, however when you don't the picture of the drums is all you can choose for that track and when you are recording the melody you will hear percussion instead of the instrument you have chosen if you are in reroute to midi default mode.
Posted by: jford

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/02/18 08:02 AM

I'm still not understanding "every 10th channel". There are only 16 MIDI channels to choose from per MIDI port, so there would only be one "channel 10". And again, that's not on PGMusic, that's the MIDI standard.

If you assign any track to MIDI channel 10, it's going to be interpreted from a MIDI perspective as drums. But you don't have to assign track 10 to channel 10. You can assign it to any channel.

It's been that way for 35 years since the standard was first adopted back in 1983. PGMusic is adhering to the standard, and that's certainly what I would expect.

Please provide some screen shots with more information as to what exactly the problem is. Or maybe someone else is seeing the problem clearly; I certainly am not.

And yes, most of us have used multiple DAW's. You'll see some of them in my signature line.

We would like to help you figure out your specific problem, but I'm pretty sure PGMusic isn't going to change and not support the documented standard for MIDI. And most DAW's I've seen let you assign whatever image you want for that track. There may be a default that pops up, but you can change it.

Even VST's must comply with those rules to be able to process the incoming data. The VST may choose to ignore some of the MIDI stream, but it still must recognize it and adjust accordingly.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/02/18 07:06 PM

Robbey10,

I believe you are confusing midi channels with midi tracks.

A midi instrument uses at least one channel but doesn't have to be limited to a single channel. While recording or composing midi data it is not unusual for midi guitar data to occupy six midi channels (one for each string), a piano to occupy two (left hand and rght hand). At some point though most people consolidate all of an instrument's data into one midi channel unless there is another need. Think about the piano again, you may want to have the left hand panned far left and the right hand panned far right or apply different effects. Then you will have to use two instances of the piano and they will need two midi channels.

Drums however are a special case though because drums don't have one, common sound at different pitches. Instead each note is a different instrument (kick, snare, closed high hat, open high hat, ride cymbal, crash cymbal and so on). That is why drums are assigned their own channel.

By the way, before the general midi (GM) standard was released each hardware manufacturer created their own standard. There was an informal agreement for drums to use channel 10 but some manufactures used channel 16. Microsoft released midi mapper to map midi channels to how your hardware works.
Posted by: CoolBreeze

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/16/18 02:39 PM

I think we're talking about multiple ports and exporting midi tracks. You can change all of that channel/program information in your DAW, so the only way it would be encoded would be on export.

Drums are expected to be on channel 10, but it's not mandatory that they are, so unless it's exported that way they you can use all 16 on one port for drums.


I'm not sure about the image thing, you should be able to change that.
Posted by: silvertones

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/17/18 07:57 AM

You are totally wrong and best pick up the midi spec book and start reading.
Posted by: eddie1261

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 05/17/18 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
Drums are expected to be on channel 10, but it's not mandatory that they are, so unless it's exported that way they you can use all 16 on one port for drums.


Note, he said CHANNEL 10, not track 10. Every drum machine I ever had was hard coded to be set on MIDI 10 on boot up. You can move the drums to any TRACK you want. I usually put them on track 1, bass on track 2, just so the foundation tracks are at the top.
Posted by: robbey10

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 06/12/18 07:23 PM

No, I am not confusing midi tracks for channels. There are 16 channels and 48 tracks in Pro tracks and Realband. If you load a VST which does limit channel 10 to percussion and you use Cayote are your input but Let's say Kontakt 5 with actions strings on channel 10 the midi will display a picture of drums, it will send a message to Coyote that it should choose a standard drumset and when you play the keyboard, you will hear drums. Until you playback where it will play out of the output that contains Action Strings. And in most modern DAWS this is not the case and hasn't been since the year 2003.
Posted by: jford

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 06/13/18 08:59 AM

I don't understand using Coyote as your input. Coyote is a synth to which you output, not input. Coyote isn't sending anything to Action Strings; the information on the actual track is (channel assignment, notes, other controls). But it's not coming from Coyote.

Coyote is a multi-timbral synth that contains the standard 16 MIDI channels (and channel 10 is reserved for drums there also). If you rechannel your track to a different channel (not 10), Coyote will play using that channel and it won't be drums.

And you can set each and every track in RealBand to whatever MIDI channel you want. And if you assign your synths to different ports, you can have every track on the same channel, but it will only play through the assigned port (and that particular synth's sound).

So again, to eliminate channel 10 as the percussion/drum channel would require a change to the GM standard and changes to every single GM compliant synth out there (not just BIAB or RealBand or Coyote...). Kontakt (with which you would play something like Action Strings) is NOT GM-compliant and doesn't care which channel the data is coming in on (although you have to match channels to the track so it will actually receive and respond to the incoming MIDI stream) and won't play drums even if it is on channel 10, because it's not a GM-compliant synth.

Also, RealBand won't have a clue about what you have set as the instrument in Kontakt, so the track will NOT show an appropriate icon indicating that instrument (as it does for Multi-Timbral synths). That's the way it is, because it only sees it as Kontakt, not something like Action Strings played by Kontakt. If you set the track to channel 10, it will assume it is drums, because by the GM spec it is. You can change the displayed icon yourself if you want something differenet to represent the actual instrument being played.

Sorry, but I'm still confused by this request.
Posted by: Jim Fogle

Re: get rid of the channel 10 drum track convention - 06/13/18 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: robbey10
Have you people tried others, I use Sonor for my final rendering, and you don't have every 10th channel blocked for drums nor does Abelthon or any of the new sequencer? With all the new VST's you put things where you want them and on the channel that you want them. So, if other sequencers can override that, I don't see why I should waste every 10th channel for the same drum track.


robbey10,

RealBand differs from Sonar and Ableton and any other DAW you can name. RealBand reserves the first eight tracks for Band-in-a-Box midi tracks by default. Other DAWs can not load native Band-in-a-Box (SGU & MGU suffix) files while RealBand can.

To remain compatible with Band-in-a-Box, RealBand needs to reserve midi channel 10 for drums.