I’m a 24 guy all the way.

24 for sure. Studied this exact think in college. This also "glances' off the study of modes.

As I once told my pal who has 6 guitars and can only play the intro to Smoke On The Water, until you understand what WWHWWWH means you really can't begin to understand music. This video indirectly addresses that.

24 for me. I have never really thought about a 12 key model except that an octave has 12 notes (which is not what this study is referring to).

I understand both. When I think about modes, I think 12. When I read Rick Beato's book, I think 24.

At the end of the day, there is no confusion when you are reading notes from standard notation/tab or hearing notes, assuming you can hear...lol.

Those notes and chords, for that matter, have to go together no matter what you call them or how you arrived at that sound.

We use a lot of different communication methods to communicate the same thing. For example, D minor, Dmin, Dm, and D-. How to say Dorian to a guitar player. Play like that Santana stuff...lol

Talk to someone from most universities, and it is 24. Talk to the guy who teaches at the music store, and it will likely be 12.

If you are confused by all this, you most likely never learned to speak both French and English...lol do,re,mi, and all that female dear stuff...lol

Billy

Why 24 and not 30? At the last rehearsal I was given a chart with a solo over Dmin then D#min. This is one of those things that music notation programs create when transposing. I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. Same thing enharmonically, but a world of difference when sight reading.

24 in my late '90s college music theory courses. I remember every Friday we had to write all the major, natural minor, and melodic minor scales on staff paper. The teacher would cut a minute off the time allotted each week. We got pretty quick at writing it all down by the end of the semester although neatness suffered a little bit.

I'm definitely one of the jazz players that you do know

Yes indeed you are! So wouldn’t you rather see Ebmin?

My somewhat convoluted reply was really meant to identify that I would ALWAYS prefer Ebmin. It's so much easier to sight read, and just makes sense.

(D#min? Yuk )

As someone who generally only plays popular styles of music, to begin with, Gb major/F# major and their relative minors of ebmin/d#min, fortunately, are not that common.

Several things come to mind about keys. Either you can sight-read the chart, or you can not. Either you are willing to play it in that key, or you are not. If you can and will play in that key, then it does not make much difference. Many things one has to do in music is a PITB.

All this 24/12 stuff to the vast majority of guitar players is meaningless, to begin with. Most don't or, more likely, can not site read.

Here are a couple of examples of why sight reading for guitar is a pain in the...

Example one


Example 2


How many of you would know that example one is to be played in "Chicken Pickin' style or example two is "Travis picking? Sure, someone would most likely tell you that but would you then know how to read the chart?

Yes, highly skilled studio musicians guitar players do this every day.

There are many ways to communicate musical ideas that have nothing to do with classical training.

Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with?

Billy

You would likely not. But that's actually a very fair question to discuss. For those of us who compose for large ensembles, the answer is not trivial.

I play in a big band where the parts are written for Trumpet in Bb. Most of us compose in concert pitch, and the two chord changes are Cmin (3 flats) to C#min (4 sharps). Now, one can't really argue that C#min should be Dbmin, because that would be eight flats. So it's Cmin to C#min.

But what happens when the arranger then prints the trumpet part where everything is raised a full step? At that point, interesting things start to show up. It becomes Dmin (one flat; fine) to D#min (six sharps). D#min is enharmonically correct, but I would rather see Ebmin (six flats). Flat to flat is easier to get your head around.

Make sense?

Sharp brain vs flat brain. Know the concept well!

This is very logical to me. It is also something that I assume happens from time to time. Generally speaking, most arrangers are not looking to make things difficult or arrange without considering the instrument.

If I usually play something in the key of A, and I am lucky enough to get to play with a horn section, I will play it in Bb if it does not mess up the singer.

Writers should write in whatever key they want to. I don't like putting limits on people's creativity. But...some of us may be unable to play it very well, if at all.

I used to play with an old blues player, Big Walter. Everything he played was in C#. There were no charts, and I could not have read them back then. It may have been a bit of a strange key, but it is actually pretty easy for a guitar player. It puts the relative minor in Bbmin where lead lines and fills behind the vocal could easily come from.

Every big band I listen to plays Jazz or Latin. The musicians are generally classically trained in formal music schools. Everyone has a chart on the music stand in front of them whether they are playing off it or not. Most of these people are highly skilled sight-readers but also have great ears.

I think it is better to understand music theory and be able to read and write than not. It is also not an absolute necessity for being able to create great music.

Even these simple discussions about 24/12 are limited to those of us who have some idea of theory, no matter where we learned the theory.
We should try our best to be inclusive and bring other people into these conversations with less structured musical communication methods.

I am constantly amazed at the small number of people who actually post things on this forum.

Billy

OK, I'm weird, and I've already said that many times .. but you are changing scale either way. Why would flat to flat make it easier?

Maybe because I learned keyboards before trumpet, I visualize them in my head the same either way. It's the same notes on the keyboard. At that point the key sig becomes not much more than a label.
Granted you probably see Ebm more than D#m in everyday use, so I guess that could make a difference, but I don't understand why the flat to flat would be preferred.

Do you get into a 'flat' mode/mentality .. or ?
Not trying to be contrary, as the answer may help me to understand other musicians better.

Mainly, I think, is because there is no D# ALTO sax. (Good catch, Harv!)

Sharp brain vs flat brain.

Okay, I'm even more confused now .. is there an Eb Tenor??

Alto, yes, but tenor?
And what if they did originally call the Eb alto a D# alto instead, would that have made a difference?
Actually I may be getting it now; writing the alto part out in D# vs Eb (relative concert) would seem more difficult, the theory and all, but is that because we have kinda been trained that way?

Alto is up a minor third; account for it (adjust notation) .. well in C that would be Eb .. maybe I do get it now after all.

No, it's a coin flip in this one case, so I just like to 'change less' by flat key to flat key. Or maybe it's because I play a Be Flat instrument?

Transposing instruments like clarinets, saxophones, trombones, and trumpets perhaps requires an explanation for all who don't understand that concept. Also, why would they be made that way?

Billy

Often wondered the same thing, but I think it is to get the desired timbre during horn design, and whatever pitch the instrument ends up making when 'open' is the key of the instrument .. but then a guitar/bass would be an 'E' instrument (basically)
A very complex/confusing language

Like a Bb instrument actually sounds down a step at C, so you have to transpose up one to compensate .. and then they throw in the Eb instruments .. which means transposing 'down' a third (or up 6 to correct for expected notation) .. mental gymnastics in real time, but fun

....hence the need to learn the topic of "Concert Pitch".

THAT mistake from an Alto Sax player!!

Good catch.

When I taught myself sax, I learned it in concert pitch. So the fingering that is F# plays a concert A, and I learned that fingering to mean A. So I got to college, joined bands, and they handed me Eb music. I literally went home and rewrote every piece of music to be in C. By my 3rd performance class as a Junior I got to where I could do it in my head, but that first couple of quarters I spent a lot of time writing,

Think of the soprano, alto, tenor, and bari sax. All are fingered the same way. You see a G in the notation, you finger it the same way on any sax. Can you imagine having to play a different fingering on each sax? So, all you need is music that is correctly transposed for the horn you have.

Brass isn’t quite as simple but it’s a similar concept.

This.

I get dragged into threads quite often when someone is confused because they started with a transposed fakebook. It’s always more logical to start in concert pitch and then convert.

For a while Matt I went back and forth from alto to soprano to bari. And transposed in my head. No wonder I am crazy now.

And there it is, proof of what I was saying.

I had a music teacher who'd wanted to play jazz and started with a saxophone. She stopped very quickly because she had absolute pitch and couldn't come to terms with music not in concert pitch. "I try to play a note but the wrong note comes out and I just became very confused".

My own preference, I think(!), would have been to learn the different fingerings for the instruments for concert pitch, or just choose one instrument and learn only it ... in concert. I did that as a child with recorders (C and F), but maybe I'm being naive about it. AFAIA the mouthing and breath control of the various instruments are sufficiently different and one really has to fully learn each instrument anyway, so I'm unclear if the different pitches really help.

My first big experience in all this was with the William Byrd Suite. I told my theory instructor (1990s) that I liked that piece and the next day he had a Xerox'd copy of it for me. At the time I had a Commodore Amiga with Dr. T's Keyboard Sequencer, an awesome MIDI tool. My personal project was to transcribe as much of the Bill Byrd Suite to MIDI as I could. There's at least a dozen different instruments in it. The first instruments I recall inputting were things like piano and flute that don't typically require transposition. I then moved on to brass, clarinets, saxes, etc, then my work was much harder. It was easy to hear if a new instrument I added was not transposed correctly. It sounded waaaaay off. If anything, that was the perfect project to teach myself all this cool stuff on transposing and concert pitch.

Rather late for the original question, but I think there are 30 keys in Western music.
7 flats through zero then 7 sharps, major and relative minor.

It can be argued there are many more, though, as the fifteen time-signatures each have seven modes, giving 105. And Blues and mixo-blues and... There undoubtedly more, because much music from other cultures doesn't fit neatly our Western 12-note scale.

Enough sums already. :-)