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Posted By: Charlie McG Fretlight Guitar - 11/11/10 08:07 PM
I don't know where I got this link so if someone has already posted info about this guitar please excuse me.

In another thread, started by Sundance, the discussion was vocal comping. Now the fret lights on these guitars lays out the scales for you, in any key. I would seriously use this and feel like it would definitely further my knowledge of guitar. Plus I might find some hellacious leads by using it.

How many would use it and how many thinks it is definitely cheating? My vote is, I like it!

http://www.fretlight.com/
Posted By: Sandra Sherman Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/11/10 08:42 PM
You have to be aware of what you`re doing while using this guitar. It can be a real helpful thing. But when you just look at the lights and without always reminding yourself of what scale you`re in then it`s of no use.

So as a guitar teacher my thumbs go up for this thingie, but use it with brains. Not like the folks that make a U-turn in a single tube tunnel, just because the GPS told them so;-))
Posted By: DrDan Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/11/10 08:47 PM
Agreed, it has merit as a learning tool. Many years ago I looked at it closely but never pulled the trigger. Since then I like to think I have now learned all my scales and modes so would be of little value. So it just depends on where you are in the learning curve.
Posted By: Charlie McG Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/11/10 09:18 PM
I feel that it would be a great learning tool. A guy used to work with me and had a synth/piano and he could always play in C. Meaning, he could set the synth/piano to D, A, F# or whatever but he could play the chords in C.

I always thought it would be nice (and this might be available) to have a synth, say you're playing in C, the synth would then block any notes that were not in the C scale (or whatever key). A person that was, say a guitar player with a fair knowledge of music, knows a few keys on piano, could fake a lot of stuff like that.
Posted By: bobcflatpicker Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/11/10 09:34 PM
Charlie,

I'd never heard of it before so I checked out your link and watched the slideshow and the vid clip. I was surprised that their vid was only 46 seconds longs or so.

A little better clip by the company owner can be found here with a 2:47 clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PefzNuaJPVQ

What's even more surprising is a better clip by a guy who can't play a lick of guitar but he just talks about it and holds the guitar, although once he tries to put his fingers where the lights tell him and he can't do it, but it is a better clip for showing what the thing does. It's a 7:23 clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqclj_Gp800

It could be a great learning tool for a beginner, or for someone trying to learn the fretboard. As long as they moved beyond the lights on the fretboard and started visualizing the fretboard in their mind.

I personally think the owner should be talking to Rockband and Guitar Hero if he really wants to make some bucks.

It has potential, but I'd have to see more info on the software. And one of the reviews I watched stated that the guitar is pretty cheesy, which is to be expected. It could end up being a very good tool with the right advances in software and hardware.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 03:53 AM
I would think that after a Jack Daniel's or two the lights would be a little tough to follow . . . talk about playing behind the beat man!

Later,
Posted By: lkmuller Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 05:42 AM
The Fretlight's been around for a while. I've personally never considered it but I imagine it could help someone learning how to play the guitar. If it makes you feel good, go for it.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 05:49 AM
A guy in our IT department bought one a few months back. I'll ask him how he's doing with it.

-Scott
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 11:28 AM
Quote:

I feel that it would be a great learning tool.




The best learning tools are those that match your learning style. If it fits your learning style, then it's a good purchase. (ever go to a book store and read through a bunch of instructional books until you find one that speaks "your language?" Same thing. ) Likewise, in school you almost certainly learned better from teachers whose teaching style matched your learning style. We don't all learn the same way.

Quote:


I always thought it would be nice (and this might be available) to have a synth, say you're playing in C, the synth would then block any notes that were not in the C scale (or whatever key). A person that was, say a guitar player with a fair knowledge of music, knows a few keys on piano, could fake a lot of stuff like that.




That's pretty much the way some vocal processors work. The TC Helicon Voiceworks, for example, also has an instrument jack. Playing an instrument through it could yield the following results:

1) auto harmony to the played note
2) correct the played note to fit a specific scale/mode
3) correct the played note to a specific MIDI passage
4) correct the played note to some note in the current MIDI chord
5) harmonize the played note to something valid in the current MIDI chord

etc

Also, some DAWs have a midi offset on each track that you can use in real time. You can play in C then offset it to another key. Or you can record in C then transpose it to the other key.
Posted By: Mac Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 01:05 PM
A "crutch" is a crutch is a crutch.

Much like the millions of small home electronic keyboards that one can find in the thrift shops and garage sales that have those little stickers plastered all over the keys to identify the notenames, said instrument never having been learned by the previous owner and soon relegated to that status. The owners of said keyboards likely still don't realize that it was the presence of those stoopid stickers that prevented them from moving past "hunt and peck" status. All they really "practiced" was, "seek and ye shall find" *grin*.

IF the act of performance was a situation of "seek and ye shall find" then such crutches would have validity. But that is not the goal if you are trying to master an instrument. In reality, it has nothing to do with it at all as the learning of where the notes are and their notenames is quite elementary and should be tackled and conquered as quickly as possible. And those lights prevent the brain from doing what it does best, which is to memorize that bit of information.

At the end of the day, there is nothing like the time-honored methods of repetition known as practice. Memorization will indeed come of its own accord when such is the case -- and a lot faster when there is no "crutch" or guide to refer to as a shortcut.

As with the student who smuggles the "cheat sheet" into the examination room at test time, the real victim of such is the student. Far too much time and energy wasted in taking the "shortcut" when simply doing the job and accepting the day-to-day programming marvel of the human brain through repetition results in actually owning that bit of information for the rest of your life.

"Mapping" the guitar neck mentally is the real goal.

That can be done away from the instrument, too, using graph paper and a pencil. A time-honored method that works.

But one has to be willing to get started in doing that. Quite often it is the First Step that seems to be the hardest step to take.

Or as Sir Edmund Hillary once stated, a mountain is climbed by taking that first step. Once you do take the first step, he said that Providence kicks in and takes you the rest of the way.

Or, as Frank Zappa put it, "Shut up and play yer guitar!"

We don't need no steenking bleenking lights.

Gimmicks are gimmicks.


--Mac
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 02:36 PM
I agree with Mac. This might be cool and all, but sooner or later you just have to memorize stuff. Then after a while you don't know that you know it.

Like so many people who avoid learning to read music. I saw somebody ask once if there was "tab" for keyboard! Yeah- it's called sheet music!
Posted By: MarioD Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 04:22 PM
Well put Mac
Posted By: Charlie McG Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 06:38 PM
Well, if I get one and someone asks, 'what in the heck is that?' I'll tell them I celebrate Christmas the whole year round!

"A workman is only as good as his tools!"

"When I was a kid I had to walk 15 miles to school!"

"Dots on the neck of the guitar? Using those is actually cheating as far as I'm concerned!"

"Hell, that ain't country!"

Guys, I'm just kidding. But it's the same argument as the vocal comping thread. Some of us are quick to adapt to new things and some of us like to wait until the operating system is up to SP2 before we get on board (and some swear that there's not a dang thang wrong with DOS).

To each his own!
Posted By: rubberball103 Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 08:40 PM
Hey man, if you like the Fretlight, get one. Everybody learns differently.
Posted By: Charlie McG Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 09:47 PM
In my last post I mentioned dots on the neck of a guitar and that got me to thinking, "I wonder when they actually began putting dots on the neck of a guitar or did they actually always have them?"

Here's the earliest picture, as this guy describes it, of the earliest known 6 string guitar (I'm paraphrasing).

http://www.theguitarmuseum.com/gm/exhibits.html (select the Fabricatore guitar).

Now I'm wondering when they first started using frets?
Posted By: rharv Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/12/10 10:11 PM
Quote:

I always thought it would be nice (and this might be available) to have a synth, say you're playing in C, the synth would then block any notes that were not in the C scale (or whatever key). A person that was, say a guitar player with a fair knowledge of music, knows a few keys on piano, could fake a lot of stuff like that.




Michael Brecker frowns on your shenanigans <grin> (rip michael)
There are no wrong notes, it's a matter of knowing which note needs to come before and after it.
I've heard him modulate into many notes that would be wrong notes for other players..

It would work for simplistic stuff I suppose.

Now that I read down through Mac's post I guess I could have left it at that.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/13/10 01:55 PM
I'm a little surprised to read all the resistance to automated music making intelligence in the BIAB forum! By using BIAB you already accept the premise that as a musician or performer you can't do everything, so you rely on technology to fill in the blanks

I am a firm believer in pursuing excellence according to my own ability... but I don't think that is contrary to the goal of using available technology to help me do a better job in areas that aren't my core strengths.

IMO, this is ultimately a discussion about the pursuit of music in a traditional way as opposed to the pursuit of music as a hybrid human/technological phenomenon. My personal expectations for music lie firmly in both camps. I like personal excellence on real instruments, but I also respect the open-minded embracing of new ideas and innovative ways to make music.

Stated differently, technology itself has become an instrument to learn and master
Posted By: rharv Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/13/10 02:43 PM
My point was that if a guitar or keyboard limits you to certain notes you will never go beyond those notes.

If an instrument only allowed the C major scale over a C major chord the minor third would be unavailable.. as would a lot of other notes that could make a difference. Therefore the user would never learn what those notes do.
Little grace notes would be unavailable (at least some of the half step ones) etc.
I could see that getting drab pretty fast.

It would indeed limit the user as much as help.
Some learning is caused by necessity. Scales are one of those things. Learning scales the correct way allows a musician to use those scales in any key, and experiment for inventive ways to play them.

Also, comparing BiaB to this isn't right. BiaB in skilled hands can do a LOT, because of the musical knowledge of the user. An instrument that only allows certain notes will limit that same user.

I'm not saying an instrument that shows where the notes are is bad, just that limiting yourself to only certain notes would stunt the learning. How many great players play by ear, having never been told certain notes were wrong..
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/13/10 03:01 PM
Quote:

My point was that if a guitar or keyboard limits you to certain notes you will never go beyond those notes.






Gotcha. I agree. But *MY* point is that such products aren't usually used as a substitute for actually learning to play an instrument. I contend that most people on this forum already know how to play one or more instruments pretty well, and they would be more inclined to use technology as a production aid to add background tracks of an instrument they don't play.

In that case, the result only has to be "good enough" to blend into the mix.

But, let me take your logic to the extreme and put you on the spot:
The people here on the forum who are recording songs solely with real tracks, not playing ANY part of the song themselves... are they using the software as a crutch? Or are they using technology to quickly put their ideas into tangible form?

Which element is more creative... the idea? Or the physical execution of it?

Is Mozart's talent diminished if others execute his ideas? Or does the composition have merit that is separate from the merit earned by those who have the skill to perform it?

Quote:


Also, comparing BiaB to this isn't right. BiaB in skilled hands can do a LOT, because of the musical knowledge of the user. An instrument that only allows certain notes will limit that same user.





while I agree that drawing BIAB into the comparison is inappropriate to your argument, it is totally appropriate to the (different) argument I am trying to set forth.

Where our points take a different path is in the presumption (or lack of it) that people who avail themselves to technological aids always do it as a crutch. I don't think that is always the case, and so I chose to argue the benefits of using technology as an aid, not as a crutch.

I'm not saying you're wrong by any means.. we are simply making different points. I object to the blanket presumption that technology is always a crutch.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/13/10 08:10 PM
The way I see this thing is that it's tablature ON the guitar rather than on paper. Plain and simple. This won't be the thing to self-instruct on the guitar from the start; but I certainly see the potential aid in use of such a thing. It's a crutch only if used as a crutch and that is far as it goes. Could be a great way to learn scales, box patterns, licks, etc - just as notation and tablature have done over the years.

For some that may learn differently than others, it's a completely valid teaching and learning tool. It isn't an end-all solution

There are visual learners, audible learners and other types. Don't discredit a technology because it doesn't meet your own preferred method.

Different example:

My kids have learned 'the lattice method' of multiplication recently in school. Turns out, it's an ancient way of multiplying large numbers that can be done quite efficiently. Those of us participating in this forum probably learned the German mathematician school of writing out large numbers.

The lattice method can be done very quickly, and for those that have difficulty keeping the columns of numbers to add nicely lined up, this method could be your savior.

End result is the same.

Some of the great blues guitar players that have bless our world with their craft never learned their fretboard note for note. Yet we still stand on their shoulders.

-Scott
Posted By: rharv Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/13/10 10:11 PM
I was specific in what I quoted from the OP when I applied my reasoning.

I'm not arguing with *you*, Pat. I was simply pointing out that an instrument that only allowed certain notes would diminish the musical experience and growth.

I understand your point, which is different than what I was responding to. I thought you grouped my point into the 'technology' argument and I wanted to clarify the point I was making. Nothing to do with technology. More about learning.

However, I will still stand by the concept that in BiaB someone with the knowledge of music theory and scales will end up with a better product than someone just punching in chords. Just the other day Mac (I think) pointed out when someone was trying to notate a chord in an extended way, and really, simply putting in a different very basic chord would have worked (most likely) since it had the notes and fundamentals of the chord. This was due to his understanding of chords and scales in the theory department. That knowledge is important.
It's not a crutch if you know what you are doing; it's a tool. If you are fumbling away and not learning anything then yes it is a crutch in the long run since it is holding you back from developing.
Just my opinion..

It could still be a *fun* thing for sure. But a crutch none the less.
Posted By: Mac Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/14/10 12:51 AM
I did not intend to imply that one could not learn using this tool.

What I DID intend to imply is that the large majority would very likely learn the fretboard faster without the LEDs.


--Mac
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/15/10 04:52 AM
Thanks to Mac and Rharv for taking time to respond to my question. Your responses make sense to me. I understand that it can be bothersome to have people ask you to reiterate what you already said.. but I have found that I am better off making sure I understand what people said, even if I have to ask more than once, and in different words.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/15/10 08:19 PM
FYI - the fretlight does not limit anyone to playing the guitar in any fashion. It's a copy of a Fat Strat, but has an interface built in to show lights on the fretboard. It's a guitar instruction DVD or tablature translated onto the fretboard. It is not an auto-chord type of casio keyboard toy.

Any instructional technique is limited or enhanced by the motivation of the student. Doesn't matter what methodology it is.

-Scott
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/17/10 03:06 PM
OK, I played one 2 days ago. Turns out, there are two guys with these at work. One is an extremely accomplished guitar player - if you go to NAMM, you will see/hear him shredding at the Westone booth with our Westone band, the Bedlam Baldies. He has his as his noodle guitar in his office. I played it. Finish quality was very nice. Quite a bit better than my MIM Strat. Frets were dressed very nicely and Greg said that it came setup very nicely. Saddles were significantly better quality than what you get with your bog-standard MIM strat - those stamped metal saddles. Also comes with a nicer pickguard than the standard MIM Fat Strat.

Greg thinks it's a great tool for learning scales and modes and fingering patterns for songs.

I think it's a pretty killer Fat Strat copy from a finish quality standpoint. The neck is particularly well done. Even the sunburst was very well done. One minor flaw in the wood that appeared to be filled before they applied the finish, but Greg and I had to look hard for it. He recalled there was one, but it took him a minute to search for it.

With it's additional capability and finish quality over a MIM Fat Strat - at $150 less, I would buy this in a heartbeat over a new MIM Fat Strat.

-Scott
Posted By: Charlie McG Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/17/10 06:00 PM
Thanks, Scott, for the review. Not sure that I will purchase one but your review will definitely help in my decision if I do. I was concerned about quality of the guitar. This really helps.
Posted By: Pat Marr Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/18/10 11:32 AM
regarding the discussion of how guitars "should" be used or learned:

I imagine a scenario in which Jimi Hendrix is taking guitar lessons from Les Paul.

Les Paul scolds Jimi and says "No no no... you're supposed to dampen the strings you aren't plucking to silence them.. the goal is to AVOID feedback and miscellaneous noise..."

all the while Jimi is thinking "that may be YOUR goal, but it isn't mine..."
Posted By: Mac Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/18/10 12:18 PM
Quote:

regarding the discussion of how guitars "should" be used or learned:

I imagine a scenario in which Jimi Hendrix is taking guitar lessons from Les Paul.

Les Paul scolds Jimi and says "No no no... you're supposed to dampen the strings you aren't plucking to silence them.. the goal is to AVOID feedback and miscellaneous noise..."

all the while Jimi is thinking "that may be YOUR goal, but it isn't mine..."





Or, as actually happened, Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong was once asked about how and why he played the trumpet so high outside its "normal" range.

He replied that after he had become an adult and famous trumpeter, he was shown "the" book of the trumpet, "Arban's Method" and said that right there in the opening pages was a little chart that had two notes on it, one low and one high, labled, "The Range of the Trumpet".

Satch said, "Its a good thing I didn't have that book to tell me where to stop!"

Indeed, the teaching methods of this world may just be better designed to create cookie-cutter clones, leaving the true innovation to come from other sources.

I don't knock the school methods, though, as I grow older I have come to realize that such only makes the value of the truly creative innovator soar even higher. I think that for every *successful* innovator there are likely many more who tried and for whatever reasons, didn't get the recognition for it. For example, Jimi DID have those who came before him who were already using feedback ala Albert King and a few of his other tricks, including his flashy clothing, which he borrowed from his experience with Little Richard's act.

As with everything else in music performance, the timing -- and the choice of venue -- is everything...


--Mac
Posted By: Charlie McG Re: Fretlight Guitar - 11/18/10 04:09 PM
True, Mac. No man is an island. We all learn (and borrow) from others.
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